Re: Re: Rotational Work Paramedic Educational adequacies

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Rotational Work

The generalization that American paramedics are inadequate is about as 

valid as the one that all male nurses are gay.

********************************************

OOooooohhhh ! ! !

I just hate this type of argumentation

Please I hope you do not mind if I point out this important discrepancies

You say :

" The generalization that American paramedics are inadequate "

Versus the initial post :

" > inadequately trained medics "

Either you missunderstood the initial post

Or

Failed to be precise in your reply to better serve your argumentation

Other wise

You say :

" Get the point? Gross generalization == bad. "

I agree with you a bit and

I will agree that we place ourselves at a lower level of conversation when we

make these broad sweeping statements

But...

It's part of conversation

As long as their are absolutely no ill intent (and their was not) (I am US

trained)

It serves to air our distinct impressions (perception is reality)

And also since some information is by it's very nature subjective

I think we do OK by still using it

And recgonizing it for what it is (subjective generalisation)

But it serves us all well

To compare our own subjectivities

Their are interesting truths to be held in those

And worse case scenario

It serves to show the person's own ignorance when the statementis is totally off

base

.... or ill intended

I do not recall the UK, Canadian or Ozie paramedics

So jumpy about how they are perceived by others

But every time

We discuss the " American model " (the grand father of them all)

Some people get sensitive about it

Yet

These same people have no problem'

'Off line and among (local) peers'

'To royaly criticize, objectively and subjectively, their own system

As you note yourself :

You seem keenly aware of the " training " issues

And no

The American Paramedics are not inadequate

And it does not serve anybody to say that other people think they are

....

It " s a bit like many muslim

Are under the distinct impression

That we, infidels, all think that they are terrorists ! ? ?

You will agree that these third person erroneous thinking

Is hard to defend succesfuly

You say :

" For every example of an inadequately training U.S. Paramedic, I can show

you one homosexual male nurse. I could also show you an example of an

inadequately 

trained UK, French, of Filipino 'medic, or even an Indian doctor. Or hell, I

could show you

a piss-poor American, French, Austrailian, or even Tongan doctor. "

By the corollary, for every straight male nurse, I could find a GREAT 

American paramedic, even a GREAT American REMOTE paramedic. Or a great 

<whatever>.

To wich I answer :

" " Get the point? Gross BAD generalization == bad. " "

You say :

" There are obviously significant shortfalls in paramedic education in 

the United States, and trying to argue otherwise is stupid. "

Hey

We are of like mind

And even their

They are som outstanding exemples of EXCELLENT Paramedic Education in the US

But it would be disingenuous to " generalize " this to your average paramedic

training

You give a good exemple where prudent generalization help us to understand and

communicate a state of fact

Worse case scenario

We can start discerning among's ourselves

What constitutes an Adequate Paramedic training

.... and

What constitutes a good Paramedic training

And that none of these will ever constitute adequate " Remote Paramedic " training

(different beast)

Freedom of speech is a good thing

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure there is much difference between the concepts of

'inadequate' or 'inadequately trained'. If someone feels there is,

then they can feel free to mentally change my response to whichever

version they are most comfortable with.

I think you'll find many nationalities are defensive about their

standards, I don't think it is exclusive to Americans. However, I

think that Americans on a whole may be more defensive because our

reputation (both job-specific and mainstream) takes quite a few hits

on a regular basis. Some of them are somewhat deserved, others are not.

There are few valid reasons for an American paramedic not to excel in

his field. The national standard curriculum is not perfect, but within

the right curriculum (and a school that actually cares about the

standards) is a good start. There are countless opportunities to

learn, seek additional training and skills, and to excel in this

field. If you are a bad paramedic in the United States, you have -

chosen- to be a bad 'medic, because the opportunities are there for

you to become a good 'medic.

We have many problem children in American, both as paramedics and as

regular citizens, but the vast majority of them are not the American

system failing the people, but rather the people failing the system.

Austin

On Dec 25, 2008, at 6:27 PM, Brault wrote:

> Re: Re: Rotational Work

>

> The generalization that American paramedics are inadequate is about as

> valid as the one that all male nurses are gay.

> ********************************************

>

> OOooooohhhh ! ! !

>

> I just hate this type of argumentation

>

> Please I hope you do not mind if I point out this important

> discrepancies

>

> You say :

> " The generalization that American paramedics are inadequate "

>

> Versus the initial post :

>

> " > inadequately trained medics "

>

> Either you missunderstood the initial post

> Or

> Failed to be precise in your reply to better serve your argumentation

>

> Other wise

>

> You say :

> " Get the point? Gross generalization == bad. "

>

> I agree with you a bit and

> I will agree that we place ourselves at a lower level of

> conversation when we make these broad sweeping statements

>

> But...

>

> It's part of conversation

>

> As long as their are absolutely no ill intent (and their was not) (I

> am US trained)

>

> It serves to air our distinct impressions (perception is reality)

> And also since some information is by it's very nature subjective

> I think we do OK by still using it

> And recgonizing it for what it is (subjective generalisation)

>

> But it serves us all well

> To compare our own subjectivities

> Their are interesting truths to be held in those

>

> And worse case scenario

> It serves to show the person's own ignorance when the statementis is

> totally off base

> ... or ill intended

>

> I do not recall the UK, Canadian or Ozie paramedics

> So jumpy about how they are perceived by others

>

> But every time

> We discuss the " American model " (the grand father of them all)

> Some people get sensitive about it

>

> Yet

> These same people have no problem'

> 'Off line and among (local) peers'

> 'To royaly criticize, objectively and subjectively, their own system

>

> As you note yourself :

> You seem keenly aware of the " training " issues

>

> And no

> The American Paramedics are not inadequate

> And it does not serve anybody to say that other people think they are

>

> ...

>

> It " s a bit like many muslim

> Are under the distinct impression

> That we, infidels, all think that they are terrorists ! ? ?

> You will agree that these third person erroneous thinking

> Is hard to defend succesfuly

>

> You say :

>

> " For every example of an inadequately training U.S. Paramedic, I can

> show

> you one homosexual male nurse. I could also show you an example of

> an inadequately

> trained UK, French, of Filipino 'medic, or even an Indian doctor. Or

> hell, I could show you

> a piss-poor American, French, Austrailian, or even Tongan doctor. "

>

> By the corollary, for every straight male nurse, I could find a GREAT

> American paramedic, even a GREAT American REMOTE paramedic. Or a great

> <whatever>.

>

> To wich I answer :

> " " Get the point? Gross BAD generalization == bad. " "

>

> You say :

> " There are obviously significant shortfalls in paramedic education in

> the United States, and trying to argue otherwise is stupid. "

>

> Hey

> We are of like mind

> And even their

> They are som outstanding exemples of EXCELLENT Paramedic Education

> in the US

> But it would be disingenuous to " generalize " this to your average

> paramedic training

> You give a good exemple where prudent generalization help us to

> understand and communicate a state of fact

>

> Worse case scenario

> We can start discerning among's ourselves

> What constitutes an Adequate Paramedic training

>

> ... and

> What constitutes a good Paramedic training

>

> And that none of these will ever constitute adequate " Remote

> Paramedic " training (different beast)

>

> Freedom of speech is a good thing

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Rotational Work

>

> The generalization that American paramedics are inadequate is about as

> valid as the one that all male nurses are gay.

> ********************************************

>

> OOooooohhhh ! ! !

>

> I just hate this type of argumentation

>

> Please I hope you do not mind if I point out this important 

> discrepancies

>

> You say :

> " The generalization that American paramedics are inadequate "

>

> Versus the initial post :

>

> " > inadequately trained medics "

>

> Either you missunderstood the initial post

> Or

> Failed to be precise in your reply to better serve your argumentation

>

> Other wise

>

> You say :

> " Get the point? Gross generalization == bad. "

>

> I agree with you a bit and

> I will agree that we place ourselves at a lower level of 

> conversation when we make these broad sweeping statements

>

> But...

>

> It's part of conversation

>

> As long as their are absolutely no ill intent (and their was not) (I 

> am US trained)

>

> It serves to air our distinct impressions (perception is reality)

> And also since some information is by it's very nature subjective

> I think we do OK by still using it

> And recgonizing it for what it is (subjective generalisation)

>

> But it serves us all well

> To compare our own subjectivities

> Their are interesting truths to be held in those

>

> And worse case scenario

> It serves to show the person's own ignorance when the statementis is 

> totally off base

> ... or ill intended

>

> I do not recall the UK, Canadian or Ozie paramedics

> So jumpy about how they are perceived by others

>

> But every time

> We discuss the " American model " (the grand father of them all)

> Some people get sensitive about it

>

> Yet

> These same people have no problem'

> 'Off line and among (local) peers'

> 'To royaly criticize, objectively and subjectively, their own system

>

> As you note yourself :

> You seem keenly aware of the " training " issues

>

> And no

> The American Paramedics are not inadequate

> And it does not serve anybody to say that other people think they are

>

> ...

>

> It " s a bit like many muslim

> Are under the distinct impression

> That we, infidels, all think that they are terrorists ! ? ?

> You will agree that these third person erroneous thinking

> Is hard to defend succesfuly

>

> You say :

>

> " For every example of an inadequately training U.S. Paramedic, I can 

> show

> you one homosexual male nurse. I could also show you an example of 

> an inadequately

> trained UK, French, of Filipino 'medic, or even an Indian doctor. Or 

> hell, I could show you

> a piss-poor American, French, Austrailian, or even Tongan doctor. "

>

> By the corollary, for every straight male nurse, I could find a GREAT

> American paramedic, even a GREAT American REMOTE paramedic. Or a great

> <whatever>.

>

> To wich I answer :

> " " Get the point? Gross BAD generalization == bad. " "

>

> You say :

> " There are obviously significant shortfalls in paramedic education in

> the United States, and trying to argue otherwise is stupid. "

>

> Hey

> We are of like mind

> And even their

> They are som outstanding exemples of EXCELLENT Paramedic Education 

> in the US

> But it would be disingenuous to " generalize " this to your average 

> paramedic training

> You give a good exemple where prudent generalization help us to 

> understand and communicate a state of fact

>

> Worse case scenario

> We can start discerning among's ourselves

> What constitutes an Adequate Paramedic training

>

> ... and

> What constitutes a good Paramedic training

>

> And that none of these will ever constitute adequate " Remote 

> Paramedic " training (different beast)

>

> Freedom of speech is a good thing

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------

Member Information:

List owner: Ian Sharpe

Editor:    Ross Boardman

[Guest guest]

(a) I won't argue the difference between 'inadequate' and

'inadequately trained.' I understand the difference you are stating.

( Americans are probably good at being defensive because we tend to

put our worst foot forward on the world-stage, and it's popular sport

in world media to bash the stupid Americans, which has trickled down

to most levels (though usually in a good natured manner.) I don't

think that some of the 'hits' we take in public aren't well-deserved,

because both individually and as a group we do some stupid things,

however I view it in the same way as I do most things 'mainstream.'

The media never reports how many people WEREN'T killed in the city,

and noone ever talks about all the things that were done right. I am

actually probably more sensitive about Americans bashing America in

public, because like an group of people, having someone on the

'inside' making comments adds a lot of 'authority' to the statement,

whether it is accurate or not. There are certainly things to be said,

and areas that we can talk about improving, but saying 'we suck' is

just bad form, and drags good people down with the dirtbags.

© I understand your comments about it not being a " system " to have

people continue their education after their initial training. I

understand the semantical difference and do not disagree. I do think

there is a " concept " of " on the job training " in the U.S. and I think

that it has some relevance. Obviously we want everyone to be as good

as possible from the beginning, but until that can happen, we should

just be striving to drag everyone up (as opposed to letting someone

drag us all down.) If we have to do that via post-initial education,

then that's what we have to do until we can fix whatever the original

problem is.

(d) I would actually be happen to converse on some of the topics you

mentioned, because I don't think they apply to the conversation as I

think you do (if that statement made sense.) I do agree it that this

is the wrong forum for that conversation.

Have a happy new year,

Austin

On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:33 AM, Brault wrote:

> Re: Re: Rotational Work

> >

> > The generalization that American paramedics are inadequate is

> about as

> > valid as the one that all male nurses are gay.

> > ********************************************

> >

> > OOooooohhhh ! ! !

> >

> > I just hate this type of argumentation

> >

> > Please I hope you do not mind if I point out this important

> > discrepancies

> >

> > You say :

> > " The generalization that American paramedics are inadequate "

> >

> > Versus the initial post :

> >

> > " > inadequately trained medics "

> >

> > Either you missunderstood the initial post

> > Or

> > Failed to be precise in your reply to better serve your

> argumentation

> >

> > Other wise

> >

> > You say :

> > " Get the point? Gross generalization == bad. "

> >

> > I agree with you a bit and

> > I will agree that we place ourselves at a lower level of

> > conversation when we make these broad sweeping statements

> >

> > But...

> >

> > It's part of conversation

> >

> > As long as their are absolutely no ill intent (and their was not) (I

> > am US trained)

> >

> > It serves to air our distinct impressions (perception is reality)

> > And also since some information is by it's very nature subjective

> > I think we do OK by still using it

> > And recgonizing it for what it is (subjective generalisation)

> >

> > But it serves us all well

> > To compare our own subjectivities

> > Their are interesting truths to be held in those

> >

> > And worse case scenario

> > It serves to show the person's own ignorance when the statementis is

> > totally off base

> > ... or ill intended

> >

> > I do not recall the UK, Canadian or Ozie paramedics

> > So jumpy about how they are perceived by others

> >

> > But every time

> > We discuss the " American model " (the grand father of them all)

> > Some people get sensitive about it

> >

> > Yet

> > These same people have no problem'

> > 'Off line and among (local) peers'

> > 'To royaly criticize, objectively and subjectively, their own system

> >

> > As you note yourself :

> > You seem keenly aware of the " training " issues

> >

> > And no

> > The American Paramedics are not inadequate

> > And it does not serve anybody to say that other people think they

> are

> >

> > ...

> >

> > It " s a bit like many muslim

> > Are under the distinct impression

> > That we, infidels, all think that they are terrorists ! ? ?

> > You will agree that these third person erroneous thinking

> > Is hard to defend succesfuly

> >

> > You say :

> >

> > " For every example of an inadequately training U.S. Paramedic, I can

> > show

> > you one homosexual male nurse. I could also show you an example of

> > an inadequately

> > trained UK, French, of Filipino 'medic, or even an Indian doctor. Or

> > hell, I could show you

> > a piss-poor American, French, Austrailian, or even Tongan doctor. "

> >

> > By the corollary, for every straight male nurse, I could find a

> GREAT

> > American paramedic, even a GREAT American REMOTE paramedic. Or a

> great

> > <whatever>.

> >

> > To wich I answer :

> > " " Get the point? Gross BAD generalization == bad. " "

> >

> > You say :

> > " There are obviously significant shortfalls in paramedic education

> in

> > the United States, and trying to argue otherwise is stupid. "

> >

> > Hey

> > We are of like mind

> > And even their

> > They are som outstanding exemples of EXCELLENT Paramedic Education

> > in the US

> > But it would be disingenuous to " generalize " this to your average

> > paramedic training

> > You give a good exemple where prudent generalization help us to

> > understand and communicate a state of fact

> >

> > Worse case scenario

> > We can start discerning among's ourselves

> > What constitutes an Adequate Paramedic training

> >

> > ... and

> > What constitutes a good Paramedic training

> >

> > And that none of these will ever constitute adequate " Remote

> > Paramedic " training (different beast)

> >

> > Freedom of speech is a good thing

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I sensed we agreed on many things

And that I would enjoy shaking this education tree down further with you and all

That this is not the best forum

Perhaps

But it's the one that has the most international EMS people on it

Anf just for that it holds a special value

I itche to understand better and appreciate the nuances between

Auzzie training, Kiwi, Military, UK and Canadian (provinces)

.... and good american training (Bachelor)... and others

And the all important CME and ongoing QA/QC issues

What is being done out there ?

And how well is it all working ? ?

As for American bashing

Their as always been some of that

But as you say it is relatively benign

Because their is a strong undercurrent of admiration

The last administration has made it not so benign

And some of it, as you imply is deserved

But then

Obama got elected

And all this bad will has been spectaularly reversed (truly)

Again the great quality of America (democracies)

Is the ability to change

An other greatest capacity of America (no other democracies)

Is to manufacture hope

As Obama politicaly and astutely axed is campaign on (he provided the bare

minimum in specific details

That is the excellent politician he is

And I would, If I may, compliment Bush and his party for having being excellent

politicians also

Now

The rest of the world is watching and waiting fore the " administrator " in him to

declare itself and show us the goods

As for

Criticism

From the outside or the inside

To the credible and the less credible

Criticism is good

Intelligent criticism is very valuable

Criticism of key fundamental issues has been emasculated in America

I do not think that the forefathers had anticipated and wished for such a

muffling of freedom of expression

I have a gut reflex against anybody that appears to impede free speach

And I have not gotten used to being told not to criticize systems (not people)

Anyway

Great exchange

If the list is not interested by this topic

It will die of it's own good death

and that is all good and fine

Have a happy and prosperous new year

Re: Re: Rotational Work

> >

> > The generalization that American paramedics are inadequate is 

> about as

> > valid as the one that all male nurses are gay.

> > ********************************************

> >

> > OOooooohhhh ! ! !

> >

> > I just hate this type of argumentation

> >

> > Please I hope you do not mind if I point out this important

> > discrepancies

> >

> > You say :

> > " The generalization that American paramedics are inadequate "

> >

> > Versus the initial post :

> >

> > " > inadequately trained medics "

> >

> > Either you missunderstood the initial post

> > Or

> > Failed to be precise in your reply to better serve your 

> argumentation

> >

> > Other wise

> >

> > You say :

> > " Get the point? Gross generalization == bad. "

> >

> > I agree with you a bit and

> > I will agree that we place ourselves at a lower level of

> > conversation when we make these broad sweeping statements

> >

> > But...

> >

> > It's part of conversation

> >

> > As long as their are absolutely no ill intent (and their was not) (I

> > am US trained)

> >

> > It serves to air our distinct impressions (perception is reality)

> > And also since some information is by it's very nature subjective

> > I think we do OK by still using it

> > And recgonizing it for what it is (subjective generalisation)

> >

> > But it serves us all well

> > To compare our own subjectivities

> > Their are interesting truths to be held in those

> >

> > And worse case scenario

> > It serves to show the person's own ignorance when the statementis is

> > totally off base

> > ... or ill intended

> >

> > I do not recall the UK, Canadian or Ozie paramedics

> > So jumpy about how they are perceived by others

> >

> > But every time

> > We discuss the " American model " (the grand father of them all)

> > Some people get sensitive about it

> >

> > Yet

> > These same people have no problem'

> > 'Off line and among (local) peers'

> > 'To royaly criticize, objectively and subjectively, their own system

> >

> > As you note yourself :

> > You seem keenly aware of the " training " issues

> >

> > And no

> > The American Paramedics are not inadequate

> > And it does not serve anybody to say that other people think they 

> are

> >

> > ...

> >

> > It " s a bit like many muslim

> > Are under the distinct impression

> > That we, infidels, all think that they are terrorists ! ? ?

> > You will agree that these third person erroneous thinking

> > Is hard to defend succesfuly

> >

> > You say :

> >

> > " For every example of an inadequately training U.S. Paramedic, I can

> > show

> > you one homosexual male nurse. I could also show you an example of

> > an inadequately

> > trained UK, French, of Filipino 'medic, or even an Indian doctor. Or

> > hell, I could show you

> > a piss-poor American, French, Austrailian, or even Tongan doctor. "

> >

> > By the corollary, for every straight male nurse, I could find a 

> GREAT

> > American paramedic, even a GREAT American REMOTE paramedic. Or a 

> great

> > <whatever>.

> >

> > To wich I answer :

> > " " Get the point? Gross BAD generalization == bad. " "

> >

> > You say :

> > " There are obviously significant shortfalls in paramedic education 

> in

> > the United States, and trying to argue otherwise is stupid. "

> >

> > Hey

> > We are of like mind

> > And even their

> > They are som outstanding exemples of EXCELLENT Paramedic Education

> > in the US

> > But it would be disingenuous to " generalize " this to your average

> > paramedic training

> > You give a good exemple where prudent generalization help us to

> > understand and communicate a state of fact

> >

> > Worse case scenario

> > We can start discerning among's ourselves

> > What constitutes an Adequate Paramedic training

> >

> > ... and

> > What constitutes a good Paramedic training

> >

> > And that none of these will ever constitute adequate " Remote

> > Paramedic " training (different beast)

> >

> > Freedom of speech is a good thing

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

------------------------------------

Member Information:

List owner: Ian Sharpe

Editor:    Ross Boardman