Guest guest Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 , There was certainly never any individual finger-pointing individually, just an in general question to the male half. And it is about that honor that you defined: the people who do this seem not to have yet connected with that honor either on a self-hood level or a doctor-level. They do not understand how many ripples extend out from such an action: his family, to the profession, his community, the person violated and for an extended time if not a lifetime, the people with who that person interact, and so on and so on and so on. It is a very loud action ... not to mention embarrassing, learning your lessons in public. Seems too much to pay for a short-term gratification. Sunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 Soctt, Well, in that context I admit to the sexism ... don't know of any female chiropractors assaulting patients in any way. Comments, Dave? Sunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 You're a smart woman, think about this: > There was certainly never any individual finger-pointing individually, just > an in general question to the male half. " In general questions " toward a whole gender are by definition sexist. Not all are inappropriate but accusatory ones are generally taken as so. As seen in the case of Abrahamson vs. Abrahamson, my wife recently asserted that I am " as big a blockhead as all my brothers " . (We grew up together.) In failing to include my sister, she made a gender based statement. I insisted that she was a sexist person not fit to rule and her whole party was just like her and she should step down from her position as queen of the realm. She laughed maniacally and told me to return to scrubbing the scullery. Blanket statements are what hurts so many women and therefore hurts men who are trying at a cost to change their own sexist background. I skip invitations to go to nude bars and get chided for it. Is this heroic? No. Is it painful? It is for some guys. Are they doing it for women? Not totally. Some are making such choices out of concern for the direction of all humanity (boys and girls); which of course is the antipathy of sexism and should be supported (because we all know how sensitive guys are to criticism!) Abrahamson, D.C. > From: Skrndc@... > Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:12:24 EST > drscott@..., > Subject: Re: OBCE Press Release > > , > > There was certainly never any individual finger-pointing individually, just > an in general question to the male half. And it is about that honor that you > defined: the people who do this seem not to have yet connected with that > honor either on a self-hood level or a doctor-level. > > They do not understand how many ripples extend out from such an action: his > family, to the profession, his community, the person violated and for an > extended time if not a lifetime, the people with who that person interact, > and so on and so on and so on. It is a very loud action ... not to mention > embarrassing, learning your lessons in public. Seems too much to pay for a > short-term gratification. > > Sunny > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 : Good points of which I aggree. In addition, lets not forget that the majority of DC's are male and females make up a greater percentage of patients, thus our (men DC's) exposure is greater (no pun intended). Other factors include the interpretation by the patient of what is acceptable "touching", and the possible "baggage" that some patients, men and women, bring into the office. If we do not recognize the baggage, we may accidentally trip one of the buried mines and have the subsequent explosion in our face. As ususal, the most important factor is clear communication regarding the problem, the proposed treatment, options and the possible risks. It is obviously a no-brainer if someone has hidden cameras, but other innocent actions may be mistaken. As far as "how do we stop this from happening at all", this is a much larger societal problem; some people are simply "not right in the head!". How we recognize this before the problem exposes itself (again no pun) is probably as difficult as determining when a vertebral artery is going to blow. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724 >From: adesiena@... > >Subject: OBCE Press Release >Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:46:44 -0800 > > >If any one is guilty of that trash, they deserve what they get. > >Having said that, the entire system being predicated on a accused male >doctor being assumed guilty is inherently unfair. I understand that >almost all these problems are caused by males. But why we should >chastise ALL males for the problems of a very small segment of the male >population. It is sexist. > >New DCs can not afford to have a CA. Most new DCs must set up their own >practice. They have no tract record. They are very vulnerable for an >unjustified accusation. If ALL male doctors are assumed guilty, >chiropractic could be a mostly female profession within a generation. > > DeSiena > >----- Forwarded Message ----- >From: Skrndc@... >drscott@..., >Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:21:30 EST >Subject: Re: OBCE Press Release >Message-ID: <3a.316da8a2.2b349d8a@...> > > > >Soctt, > >Well, in that context I admit to the sexism ... don't know of any female >chiropractors assaulting patients in any way. Comments, Dave? > > >Sunny > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. >However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, >forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member >without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been >removed. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 , These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have 'baggage' and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching to adjust (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy or uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman (and a short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but if I move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once the manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men underestimate the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to dismiss it as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. Doing breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know that. Don't even go there. Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you won't be falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be the doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. Avoid underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) It's about Trust, not lust. Sunny ;'[-))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Steve, you just brought the latest three discussions into one focus: Yes, to me investigating any vicerosomatic connection I uncover is necessary to addressing the patient's issues. That DDX (differential diagnosis) is what allows me to be the Doctor and the Chiropractor. To me, we have it all. And with the intent of ddx'ing the possible vicerosomatic problem, my touch is firm and honest without vagueness or hesitation, so no thought of any inappropriate and/or sexual approach arises. And a problem never occurs. Thank you for drawing the strings together, Steve. Sunny Kierstyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 Steve: The profession has no problem in my mind of supposedly feeling they can't perform a proper examination for fear of a patient/consumer complaint every time they do so. Is it just me or am I correct is saying any male (female?) colleague with at least a rudimentary level of clinical/medi-legal judgement, especially in these times would have an assisent present during very private sensative examination procedures e.g., pelvic, breast exams/procedures. Many of the cases in which the OBCE has ended up acting on are so egregious the fact of the matter is they have nothing in common with true practice. As a consequence quality practicioners such as yourself have absolutely nothing even remotely to fear and such be nothing but supportive of the OBCE's needed actions in this area. Vern Saboe, DC President Chiropractic Association of Oregon Oregon's Delegate to the American Chiropractic Association Albany Re: OBCE Press Release > > > > , > > > > These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have > 'baggage' > > and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching to > adjust > > (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy or > > uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman (and a > > short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but if I > > move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once the > > manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. > > > > It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men > underestimate > > the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to dismiss > it > > as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. Doing > > breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know that. > > Don't even go there. > > > > Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you won't be > > falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be the > > doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. Avoid > > underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) > > > > It's about Trust, not lust. > > > > > > Sunny ;'[-))) > > > > OregonDCs rules: > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > members will be tolerated. > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his > or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 I am glad that this is so. Surrender no turf! Steve Lumsden Re: OBCE Press Release > > > > > > > , > > > > > > These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have > > 'baggage' > > > and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching to > > adjust > > > (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy or > > > uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman (and a > > > short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but if > I > > > move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once the > > > manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. > > > > > > It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men > > underestimate > > > the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to > dismiss > > it > > > as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. > Doing > > > breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know that. > > > Don't even go there. > > > > > > Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you won't > be > > > falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be the > > > doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. > Avoid > > > underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) > > > > > > It's about Trust, not lust. > > > > > > > > > Sunny ;'[-))) > > > > > > OregonDCs rules: > > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > > members will be tolerated. > > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, > > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his > > or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Steve: I don't want to do prostate exams anymore. How do I handle it when one my patients needs one? I refer him to a man to do it. I am not shirking my responsibility or making the patient or me uncomfortable. I don't think men chiropractors should do breast exams. Is it just me? Ann Goldeen, Astoria Re: OBCE Press Release > > > > , > > > > These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have > 'baggage' > > and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching to > adjust > > (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy or > > uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman (and a > > short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but if I > > move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once the > > manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. > > > > It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men > underestimate > > the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to dismiss > it > > as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. Doing > > breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know that. > > Don't even go there. > > > > Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you won't be > > falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be the > > doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. Avoid > > underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) > > > > It's about Trust, not lust. > > > > > > Sunny ;'[-))) > > > > OregonDCs rules: > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > members will be tolerated. > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his > or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Lonnie, In this instance you may want to re-think your stance. While I can appreciate that you have a good grasp (no pun intended) of the anatomy, a man does not have the sensitvity to truly understand what to 'look' for just as I don't feel (again no pun intended) I have the sensitivity to truly grasp a testicular irregularity. In this instance, in my experience and fromthe verbalizations of the majority of my female patients, gender does matter. Sunny Kierstyn ;'-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Sunny, I think what truly matters is sensitivity,(physical, psychlogical,emotional,spiritual), empathy, training and experience. Just because I have a prostate doesn't make me inherently more qualified to palpate one than any other person of either gender. What puts me at ease in any therapeutic encounter where I am the patient, is the professionalism, confidence, manner, consideration and attention of the physician, not the gender. For what its' worth, Rick Balsiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 <PRE>Well spoken ...and please my faux pas in the last e-mail with the improper name. My abject apologies for that. Sunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Ann I think it is fine that you dont want to do prostate exams and that you want a woman to do your breast exam. I dont believe you should be making the decsion that men shouldnt be doing breast exams. sincerely Lonnie Re: OBCE Press Release > > > > > > > , > > > > > > These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have > > 'baggage' > > > and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching to > > adjust > > > (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy or > > > uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman (and a > > > short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but if > I > > > move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once the > > > manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. > > > > > > It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men > > underestimate > > > the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to > dismiss > > it > > > as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. > Doing > > > breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know that. > > > Don't even go there. > > > > > > Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you won't > be > > > falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be the > > > doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. > Avoid > > > underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) > > > > > > It's about Trust, not lust. > > > > > > > > > Sunny ;'[-))) > > > > > > OregonDCs rules: > > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > > members will be tolerated. > > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, > > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his > > or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 You are absolutely right, . And the truth is: all of us have better than average palpatory skills. It's the 'daily basis' part that concerns me. Since that exam is not the primary reason most people attend our services, the experience factor is a concern. And THEN (no offense to anyone) , with this issue, there's the gender factor. And to put it realistically, with informed consent, the discussion is moot. Perhaps that's the factor that could use some solidifying: Valid reason for the exam and full discussion of its need prior to it being performed...with a solid, not-to-be-mistaken-for-anything-else professional touch. Sunny ;'-)) I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Sunny, Sorry, but I can't go along with this one. A well trained man can be just as sensitive to pathology in a woman's breast as a well trained woman. The fact is that chiropractors are not well trained to do this, primarily because of the lack of experience with pathologic breasts. When chiropractors are training on a daily basis to palpate breasts for pathology then they will be adequately qualified regardless of gender. Freeman -- Re: OBCE Press Release > > Lonnie, In this instance you may want to re-think your stance. While I can appreciate that you have a good grasp (no pun intended) of the anatomy, a man does not have the sensitvity to truly understand what to 'look' for just as I don't feel (again no pun intended) I have the sensitivity to truly grasp a testicular irregularity. In this instance, in my experience and fromthe verbalizations of the majority of my female patients, gender does matter. Sunny Kierstyn ;'-) OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Lonnie: I don't get to make the decision who does what kind of exam, however, I think men chiropractors who choose to do breast exams are in dangerous territory. I wouldn't want to jeapardize my practice by even the appearance of inappropriate behavior. Given the culture of suspicion, why risk it? In a perfect world, the sex of the examiner/doctor wouldn't matter, their competence would. But, we aren't there. Ann Goldeen Re: OBCE Press Release > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have > > > 'baggage' > > > > and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching to > > > adjust > > > > (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy or > > > > uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman (and > a > > > > short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but > if > > I > > > > move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once the > > > > manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. > > > > > > > > It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men > > > underestimate > > > > the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to > > dismiss > > > it > > > > as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. > > Doing > > > > breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know > that. > > > > Don't even go there. > > > > > > > > Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you won't > > be > > > > falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be > the > > > > doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. > > Avoid > > > > underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) > > > > > > > > It's about Trust, not lust. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunny ;'[-))) > > > > > > > > OregonDCs rules: > > > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is > to > > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > > > members will be tolerated. > > > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > > > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > > > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, > forward, > > > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > > his > > > or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Hi , I was referring to the sensitivity of the female human, a sensitivity that, for many, is heightened when even a hint of sexual-toned behaviors are exhibited. This is an area that, in myobservations, is too often overlooked and/or dismissed as 'emotional' garbage. As Ann observered, it's is better to just stay away from ths area. In other words, don't even go there. Why take the reisk! It is an area too frought with misunderstandings. Play it safe guys! Sunny Happy New Year! ;'-))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Sunny - I recall a recent study that found women that regularly examined their own breasts had minimal sucess at finding potentially serious lumps. This would argue against a female physician having better palpatory skills regarding breast tissue than a male physician. Is the sensitivity you speak of palpatory or are you generally referring to doctor-patient relationship sensitivity? I believe is correct that we DC's do not perform nearly enough breast examinations of pathologic breasts (with rare exceptions). I would suggest rounds in a teaching hospital.... P. Thille, D.C., FACORedmond, Oregon Re: Re: OBCE Press Release Sunny,Sorry, but I can't go along with this one. A well trained man can be just as sensitive to pathology in a woman's breast as a well trained woman. The fact is that chiropractors are not well trained to do this, primarily because of the lack of experience with pathologic breasts. When chiropractors are training on a daily basis to palpate breasts for pathology then they will be adequately qualified regardless of gender. Freeman-------Original Message-------From: Skrndc@...Sent: 12/30/02 11:04 AMlonniemily@..., Subject: Re: OBCE Press Release> > Lonnie,In this instance you may want to re-think your stance. While I can appreciate that you have a good grasp (no pun intended) of the anatomy, a man does not have the sensitvity to truly understand what to 'look' forjust as I don't feel (again no pun intended) I have the sensitivity to trulygrasp a testicular irregularity. In this instance, in my experience and fromthe verbalizations of the majority of my female patients, gender doesmatter. Sunny Kierstyn ;'-)OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is tofoster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listservemembers will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, orotherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his orher consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Ann, I don't believe that any practitioner should go where they are uncomfortable unless it is an emergency or if they are the only one that is able. I believe that much of our discomfort in certain areas is due to the lack of familiarity and experience. This is unfortunate for the DC as it perpetuates a loss of freedoms to function and interfers with patient control, continuity of care, and the trust relationlship with the DC. I find it unusual anymore that I do a pelvic exam. This is due to women's understandable concern over males doing the proceedure--even common concerns over a male gyn often times. This is understandable but unfortunate. For me to be able to do what is necessary is expedient for the patient, and makes my practice experience rewarding. In sensitive exams that are done professionally I believe that the DC can be excellent as their skills in observation and palpation are valuable and uncommon. I find that provider comfort and competance is a result of repitition in doing a proceedure and of course the background training and collegiate support. A large portion of our examination dilemmas(not all), and even fluency in applying our skills, are the result of the present payor system that controls what will be paid for. Many of my patients have desired me to be their general physician but the insurance might only pay for a constipated list of physical medicine proceedures. People just don't want to pay the costs with cash for screenings, annual exams, as they can be expensive. What happens then is the DC begins to slip on a slope into a nice little box that is defined by the payor system and thus begins to give up freedoms, competancies, and inclusive view of the human condition? Now in regard to your preferences, I have no issue. Men chiropractors can do breast exam competantly and professionally as well as anyone. Hey, I am interested in people: emotionally, physically, chemically, structurally. I am trained to examine and treat. If I earn their trust and if I feel competant to do the proceedure, I'll do it, and do it well. Steve Lumsden Re: OBCE Press Release > > > > > > > , > > > > > > These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have > > 'baggage' > > > and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching to > > adjust > > > (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy or > > > uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman (and a > > > short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but if > I > > > move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once the > > > manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. > > > > > > It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men > > underestimate > > > the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to > dismiss > > it > > > as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. > Doing > > > breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know that. > > > Don't even go there. > > > > > > Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you won't > be > > > falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be the > > > doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. > Avoid > > > underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) > > > > > > It's about Trust, not lust. > > > > > > > > > Sunny ;'[-))) > > > > > > OregonDCs rules: > > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > > members will be tolerated. > > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, > > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his > > or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 OK Sunny - thanks P. Thille, D.C., FACORedmond, Oregon Re: OBCE Press Release Hi ,I was referring to the sensitivity of the female human, a sensitivity that, for many, is heightened when even a hint of sexual-toned behaviors are exhibited. This is an area that, in myobservations, is too often overlooked and/or dismissed as 'emotional' garbage. As Ann observered, it's is better to just stay away from ths area. In other words, don't even go there. Why take the reisk! It is an area too frought with misunderstandings. Play it safe guys! SunnyHappy New Year! ;'-))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 OK, Sunny. Let's take it to another level: Should a lesbian chiropractor be disallowed from doing a breast exam? Would she be able to totally shut off any sexual feelings or is it a matter of knowing they exist and ignoring them? (Like we all do when we have a patient who is attractive to us. For example, I often go into Starbucks for a cup of coffee. I see and smell baked goods which are attractive to me. I long to bite into them, enjoy their gooey, sweet, greasy, flaky Danish-ness. I never buy them because I don't want the results: they go RIGHT to my thighs!) Or are any feelings whatsoever about a patient grounds for avoiding the gender of patient? I have 3 step-daughters. All three are beautiful. My sick, sinful, human, sexuality bombarded American brain sometimes tries to highlight their beauty or sex appeal to me. I have succeeded for the past 11 years in acknowledging those thoughts and sending them to the trash bin. I replace them with thoughts of love, tenderness, support, or in a pinch, paternal judgementalism. Deep thoughts on New Year's Eve, -- E. Abrahamson, D.C. Chiropractic physician Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic 601 First Street Lake Oswego, OR 97034 503-635-6246 > From: Skrndc@... > Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:12:11 EST > mtdc@..., > Subject: Re: OBCE Press Release > > Hi , > > I was referring to the sensitivity of the female human, a sensitivity that, > for many, is heightened when even a hint of sexual-toned behaviors are > exhibited. This is an area that, in myobservations, is too often overlooked > and/or dismissed as 'emotional' garbage. As Ann observered, it's is better > to just stay away from ths area. In other words, don't even go there. Why > take the reisk! It is an area too frought with misunderstandings. Play it > safe guys! Sunny > > Happy New Year! ;'-))) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Taking this argument to another level, any male chiro. who treats a female pt. in a gown (the pt. in a gown, the doctor in Dockers) is on " dangerous ground " . Given our culture of suspicion, let's change the culture...and be wise. How about a female assistant in the room for breast exams if a breast exam is indicated. I always assume that a women has an annual PAP smear so she gets a breast exam at that time. Abrahamson, D.C. > From: " Ann " <anngoldeen@...> > Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:33:20 -0800 > " Lonnie " <lonniemily@...>, <dcdocbrian@...>, > < >, <Skrndc@...>, " lumsden " <lumsden@...> > Subject: Re: OBCE Press Release > > Lonnie: I don't get to make the decision who does what kind of exam, > however, I think men chiropractors who choose to do breast exams are in > dangerous territory. I wouldn't want to jeapardize my practice by even the > appearance of inappropriate behavior. Given the culture of suspicion, why > risk it? In a perfect world, the sex of the examiner/doctor wouldn't > matter, their competence would. But, we aren't there. Ann Goldeen > Re: OBCE Press Release >>>> >>>> >>>>> , >>>>> >>>>> These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have >>>> 'baggage' >>>>> and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching > to >>>> adjust >>>>> (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy > or >>>>> uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman > (and >> a >>>>> short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but >> if >>> I >>>>> move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once > the >>>>> manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men >>>> underestimate >>>>> the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to >>> dismiss >>>> it >>>>> as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. >>> Doing >>>>> breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know >> that. >>>>> Don't even go there. >>>>> >>>>> Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you > won't >>> be >>>>> falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be >> the >>>>> doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. >>> Avoid >>>>> underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) >>>>> >>>>> It's about Trust, not lust. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sunny ;'[-))) >>>>> >>>>> OregonDCs rules: >>>>> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is >> to >>>> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on > listserve >>>> members will be tolerated. >>>>> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >>>>> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. >>>> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, >> forward, >>>> or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member > without >>> his >>>> or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. >>>>> >>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Yes, and I do know of lesbian MD's who specialize in OB/GYN, so how's that make ya'll feel? An one more thing, I recently had a GYN send me a patient for chest wall syndrome which included an sore right breast. Did I examine the chest wall under the breast, the thoracic spine, the breast tissue itself? You bet your ass! She responded wonderfully to three adjustments. Steve Lumsden Re: OBCE Press Release > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> , > >>>>> > >>>>> These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have > >>>> 'baggage' > >>>>> and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching > > to > >>>> adjust > >>>>> (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy > > or > >>>>> uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman > > (and > >> a > >>>>> short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but > >> if > >>> I > >>>>> move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once > > the > >>>>> manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. > >>>>> > >>>>> It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men > >>>> underestimate > >>>>> the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to > >>> dismiss > >>>> it > >>>>> as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. > >>> Doing > >>>>> breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know > >> that. > >>>>> Don't even go there. > >>>>> > >>>>> Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you > > won't > >>> be > >>>>> falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be > >> the > >>>>> doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. > >>> Avoid > >>>>> underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) > >>>>> > >>>>> It's about Trust, not lust. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Sunny ;'[-))) > >>>>> > >>>>> OregonDCs rules: > >>>>> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is > >> to > >>>> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on > > listserve > >>>> members will be tolerated. > >>>>> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > >>>>> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > >>>> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, > >> forward, > >>>> or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member > > without > >>> his > >>>> or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > >>>>> > >>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 And another thing....if my medical colleagues thought that I was intimidated in doing a basic and necessary exam of any type it wouldn't be a good thing. Steve L. Re: OBCE Press Release > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> , > > >>>>> > > >>>>> These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have > > >>>> 'baggage' > > >>>>> and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching > > > to > > >>>> adjust > > >>>>> (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy > > > or > > >>>>> uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman > > > (and > > >> a > > >>>>> short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but > > >> if > > >>> I > > >>>>> move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once > > > the > > >>>>> manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men > > >>>> underestimate > > >>>>> the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to > > >>> dismiss > > >>>> it > > >>>>> as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. > > >>> Doing > > >>>>> breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know > > >> that. > > >>>>> Don't even go there. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you > > > won't > > >>> be > > >>>>> falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be > > >> the > > >>>>> doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. > > >>> Avoid > > >>>>> underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> It's about Trust, not lust. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Sunny ;'[-))) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> OregonDCs rules: > > >>>>> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is > > >> to > > >>>> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on > > > listserve > > >>>> members will be tolerated. > > >>>>> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > > >>>>> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > > >>>> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, > > >> forward, > > >>>> or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member > > > without > > >>> his > > >>>> or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 Steve: You put it succinctly. Over the years my practice has shrunk in scope mostly because renumeration isn't there. We have been boxed in by insurance companies- allowed ourselves to be cubby holed into being back doctors. It is a shame. We have so much more to offer. Ann Goldeen Re: OBCE Press Release > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > These are all good points. Many people (men and women both)have > > > 'baggage' > > > > and ' covered mines'. But/And, there is a difference with touching to > > > adjust > > > > (meaning, with a firm, directed touch) and touching with hesitancy or > > > > uncertainity which and (and often) is misinterpreted. As a woman (and > a > > > > short one to boot!) I have to touch men with my body frequently but > if > > I > > > > move in with a solid touch to the body, my intent is clear. Once the > > > > manuever is over, my touch is done and I'm on to the next. > > > > > > > > It seems to me that (here comes a generic statement) that men > > > underestimate > > > > the sensitivity have on this issue and tend (generic statemtnt) to > > dismiss > > > it > > > > as 'sensitivity' rather than boundaries that need to be respected. > > Doing > > > > breast exams for no reason is not part of your job and women know > that. > > > > Don't even go there. > > > > > > > > Make you touch firm and directed (in the correct manner) and you won't > > be > > > > falsely accused no matter how few people you have in the office. Be > the > > > > doctor. Women know when you are being (or thinking) anything else. > > Avoid > > > > underestimating us. (sorry, another generic statement) > > > > > > > > It's about Trust, not lust. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunny ;'[-))) > > > > > > > > OregonDCs rules: > > > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is > to > > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > > > members will be tolerated. > > > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > > > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > > > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, > forward, > > > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > > his > > > or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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