RE: olive oil with cooked tomatoes

[Guest guest]

> Aha!!

oh no!!

From a CR-ON stand point, it doesnt work out.

both groups got 479 grams of cooked tomatoes. Thats around 85 calories using USDA Database

the group that added the olive oil, added 25 ml, thats over 200 calories using the USDA Database

For adding in all those 200 calories, they increase the trans lycopene 82% and the cis lycopene 40% (or 25%) over the over group.

If I ate had just consumed 200 more calories worth of tomatoes (2.35 more tomatoes) , instead of adding the olive oil, I would have increased my trans lycopene over 300%.instead of a measly 84% and i would also increase all the other nutrients that are in the tomatoes and not in the olive oil.

As I said, adding oil will always increase calorie density and lower nutrient density.

Regardsjeff

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Francesca SkeltonSent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:48 PM Subject: [ ] olive oil with cooked tomatoes

Aha!!on 8/10/2005 2:14 PM, Al Pater at old542000@... wrote:

We conclude that the addition of olive oil to diced tomatoesduring cooking greatly increases the absorption of lycopene. The results highlightthe importance of cuisine (i.e how a food is prepared and consumed) in determiningthe bioavailability of dietary carotenoids such as lycopene. PMID: 15927929

[Guest guest]

> Aha!!

oh no!!

From a CR-ON stand point, it doesnt work out.

both groups got 479 grams of cooked tomatoes. Thats around 85 calories using USDA Database

the group that added the olive oil, added 25 ml, thats over 200 calories using the USDA Database

For adding in all those 200 calories, they increase the trans lycopene 82% and the cis lycopene 40% (or 25%) over the over group.

If I ate had just consumed 200 more calories worth of tomatoes (2.35 more tomatoes) , instead of adding the olive oil, I would have increased my trans lycopene over 300%.instead of a measly 84% and i would also increase all the other nutrients that are in the tomatoes and not in the olive oil.

As I said, adding oil will always increase calorie density and lower nutrient density.

Regardsjeff

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Francesca SkeltonSent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:48 PM Subject: [ ] olive oil with cooked tomatoes

Aha!!on 8/10/2005 2:14 PM, Al Pater at old542000@... wrote:

We conclude that the addition of olive oil to diced tomatoesduring cooking greatly increases the absorption of lycopene. The results highlightthe importance of cuisine (i.e how a food is prepared and consumed) in determiningthe bioavailability of dietary carotenoids such as lycopene. PMID: 15927929

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

The 470g of tomatoes is over ONE POUND of tomatoes per day. Olive oil

has a density of 0.91 g/ml at room temperature. this means that 25ml

of olive oil is approximately 22.8 grams (slightly less than TWO

TABLESPOONS). Two tablespoons of olive oil for one pound of tomatoes

would not seem to yield an excessively greasy tomato sauce.

The authors say that " There was no significant change in

trans-lycopene (P = 0.684) and a 15% increase in cis-lycopene (P =

0.007) concentrations in 12 subjects consuming tomatoes cooked without

olive oil " . It seems very clear that your plasma lycopene

concentration will not change very much if the tomatoes are not cooked

with oil. In the case of trans-lycopene, you could eat fresh tomatoes

all day, and there would be no increase whatsoever in plasma lycopene

concentration.

Am I reading the abstract wrong?

Tony

== PMID 15927929 ====

The aim of the present study was to determine whether consumption of

diced tomatoes cooked with olive oil resulted in higher plasma

lycopene concentrations than consumption of diced tomatoes cooked

without olive oil. Plasma lycopene concentrations were measured after

5 days on a low lycopene diet and again after a five-day dietary

intervention, in healthy subjects, who consumed one meal per day of

tomatoes (470 g) cooked with or without extra virgin olive oil (25 ml

olive oil). There was an 82% increase in plasma trans-lycopene (P<

0.001) and a 40% in cis-lycopene (P = 0.002) concentrations in the 11

subjects who consumed tomatoes cooked in olive oil.

There was no significant change in trans-lycopene (P = 0.684) and a

15% increase in cis-lycopene (P = 0.007) concentrations in 12 subjects

consuming tomatoes cooked without olive oil. We conclude that the

addition of olive oil to diced tomatoes during cooking greatly

increases the absorption of lycopene. The results highlight the

importance of cuisine (i.e how a food is prepared and consumed) in

determining the bioavailability of dietary carotenoids such as

lycopene. PMID: 15927929

--- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

wrote:

> > Aha!!

>

> oh no!!

>

> From a CR-ON stand point, it doesnt work out.

>

> both groups got 479 grams of cooked tomatoes. Thats around 85

calories

> using USDA Database

>

> the group that added the olive oil, added 25 ml, thats over 200

calories

> using the USDA Database

>

> For adding in all those 200 calories, they increase the trans

lycopene

> 82% and the cis lycopene 40% (or 25%) over the over group.

>

> If I ate had just consumed 200 more calories worth of tomatoes (2.35

> more tomatoes) , instead of adding the olive oil, I would have

increased

> my trans lycopene over 300%.instead of a measly 84% and i would also

> increase all the other nutrients that are in the tomatoes and not

in the

> olive oil.

>

> As I said, adding oil will always increase calorie density and lower

> nutrient density.

>

> Regards

> jeff

>

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

The 470g of tomatoes is over ONE POUND of tomatoes per day. Olive oil

has a density of 0.91 g/ml at room temperature. this means that 25ml

of olive oil is approximately 22.8 grams (slightly less than TWO

TABLESPOONS). Two tablespoons of olive oil for one pound of tomatoes

would not seem to yield an excessively greasy tomato sauce.

The authors say that " There was no significant change in

trans-lycopene (P = 0.684) and a 15% increase in cis-lycopene (P =

0.007) concentrations in 12 subjects consuming tomatoes cooked without

olive oil " . It seems very clear that your plasma lycopene

concentration will not change very much if the tomatoes are not cooked

with oil. In the case of trans-lycopene, you could eat fresh tomatoes

all day, and there would be no increase whatsoever in plasma lycopene

concentration.

Am I reading the abstract wrong?

Tony

== PMID 15927929 ====

The aim of the present study was to determine whether consumption of

diced tomatoes cooked with olive oil resulted in higher plasma

lycopene concentrations than consumption of diced tomatoes cooked

without olive oil. Plasma lycopene concentrations were measured after

5 days on a low lycopene diet and again after a five-day dietary

intervention, in healthy subjects, who consumed one meal per day of

tomatoes (470 g) cooked with or without extra virgin olive oil (25 ml

olive oil). There was an 82% increase in plasma trans-lycopene (P<

0.001) and a 40% in cis-lycopene (P = 0.002) concentrations in the 11

subjects who consumed tomatoes cooked in olive oil.

There was no significant change in trans-lycopene (P = 0.684) and a

15% increase in cis-lycopene (P = 0.007) concentrations in 12 subjects

consuming tomatoes cooked without olive oil. We conclude that the

addition of olive oil to diced tomatoes during cooking greatly

increases the absorption of lycopene. The results highlight the

importance of cuisine (i.e how a food is prepared and consumed) in

determining the bioavailability of dietary carotenoids such as

lycopene. PMID: 15927929

--- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...>

wrote:

> > Aha!!

>

> oh no!!

>

> From a CR-ON stand point, it doesnt work out.

>

> both groups got 479 grams of cooked tomatoes. Thats around 85

calories

> using USDA Database

>

> the group that added the olive oil, added 25 ml, thats over 200

calories

> using the USDA Database

>

> For adding in all those 200 calories, they increase the trans

lycopene

> 82% and the cis lycopene 40% (or 25%) over the over group.

>

> If I ate had just consumed 200 more calories worth of tomatoes (2.35

> more tomatoes) , instead of adding the olive oil, I would have

increased

> my trans lycopene over 300%.instead of a measly 84% and i would also

> increase all the other nutrients that are in the tomatoes and not

in the

> olive oil.

>

> As I said, adding oil will always increase calorie density and lower

> nutrient density.

>

> Regards

> jeff

>

[Guest guest]

Hey, the PCa guys eat tomato paste on toast.

How much do we want?

[ ] Re: olive oil with cooked tomatoes

Hi folks:So if someone wants to do a more definitive study they need to try oils which contain appreciable amounts of the one fat we know for sure we really do need some of - i.e. is 'essential', linoleic - and that means safflower or sunflower oil. And then test 500g of diced tomatoes cooked with varying amounts of the oil - 0g; 2g; 4g; 8g; 16g; 32g perhaps - and see what level of oil maximizes the blood lycopene per calorie ingested.Quite likely as Jeff suggests, it will be 500g tomato and zero oil. But it is conceivable that just a little oil, 2g say, might be enough to activate all the lycopene in 500g of diced tomatoes if thoroughly stirred. Perhaps the oil acts as a catalyst in this process. Eventually someone will get around to doing it. And I bet Al will post it when they do, lol. Thanks Al!Rodney.

[Guest guest]

Hey, the PCa guys eat tomato paste on toast.

How much do we want?

[ ] Re: olive oil with cooked tomatoes

Hi folks:So if someone wants to do a more definitive study they need to try oils which contain appreciable amounts of the one fat we know for sure we really do need some of - i.e. is 'essential', linoleic - and that means safflower or sunflower oil. And then test 500g of diced tomatoes cooked with varying amounts of the oil - 0g; 2g; 4g; 8g; 16g; 32g perhaps - and see what level of oil maximizes the blood lycopene per calorie ingested.Quite likely as Jeff suggests, it will be 500g tomato and zero oil. But it is conceivable that just a little oil, 2g say, might be enough to activate all the lycopene in 500g of diced tomatoes if thoroughly stirred. Perhaps the oil acts as a catalyst in this process. Eventually someone will get around to doing it. And I bet Al will post it when they do, lol. Thanks Al!Rodney.

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Somewhere I read recently that there is a great deal of lycopene in

the SKINS of tomatoes. So, if this is true, the diced tomatoes that

come in cans that appear not to contain the skin would be much less

healthy than the stuff which includes the skin. I don't know for

sure but my guess is that the 'ground tomatoes' and 'tomato paste'

likely do include the skin?

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> Hey, the PCa guys eat tomato paste on toast.

> How much do we want?

>

> [ ] Re: olive oil with cooked tomatoes

>

>

> Hi folks:

>

> So if someone wants to do a more definitive study they need to

try

> oils which contain appreciable amounts of the one fat we know for

> sure we really do need some of - i.e. is 'essential', linoleic -

and

> that means safflower or sunflower oil. And then test 500g of

diced

> tomatoes cooked with varying amounts of the oil - 0g; 2g; 4g; 8g;

> 16g; 32g perhaps - and see what level of oil maximizes the blood

> lycopene per calorie ingested.

>

> Quite likely as Jeff suggests, it will be 500g tomato and zero

oil.

> But it is conceivable that just a little oil, 2g say, might be

enough

> to activate all the lycopene in 500g of diced tomatoes if

thoroughly

> stirred. Perhaps the oil acts as a catalyst in this process.

> Eventually someone will get around to doing it. And I bet Al

will

> post it when they do, lol. Thanks Al!

>

> Rodney.

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Somewhere I read recently that there is a great deal of lycopene in

the SKINS of tomatoes. So, if this is true, the diced tomatoes that

come in cans that appear not to contain the skin would be much less

healthy than the stuff which includes the skin. I don't know for

sure but my guess is that the 'ground tomatoes' and 'tomato paste'

likely do include the skin?

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> Hey, the PCa guys eat tomato paste on toast.

> How much do we want?

>

> [ ] Re: olive oil with cooked tomatoes

>

>

> Hi folks:

>

> So if someone wants to do a more definitive study they need to

try

> oils which contain appreciable amounts of the one fat we know for

> sure we really do need some of - i.e. is 'essential', linoleic -

and

> that means safflower or sunflower oil. And then test 500g of

diced

> tomatoes cooked with varying amounts of the oil - 0g; 2g; 4g; 8g;

> 16g; 32g perhaps - and see what level of oil maximizes the blood

> lycopene per calorie ingested.

>

> Quite likely as Jeff suggests, it will be 500g tomato and zero

oil.

> But it is conceivable that just a little oil, 2g say, might be

enough

> to activate all the lycopene in 500g of diced tomatoes if

thoroughly

> stirred. Perhaps the oil acts as a catalyst in this process.

> Eventually someone will get around to doing it. And I bet Al

will

> post it when they do, lol. Thanks Al!

>

> Rodney.

[Guest guest]

>>Am I reading the abstract wrong?

I don't think so. We are just looking it at from 2 different

perspectives.

470 grams is just over a lb of tomatoes, but as tomatoes are a very high

water content foods, its really not a lot of tomatoes. Like 3-4 medium

tomatoes. That 2 TB of olive oil is over 200 calories.

They way I Look at it, I am trying not only to get the most nutrients

per calorie but also the least calories per pound of food. That's why,

even if I have to eat a few more tomatoes, I would rather do it that

way, then put olive oil on my tomatoes. Not only do I get more lycopene

for the same calories, I also get more every other nutrient. And, as

one of the complaints or worries about CR-ON is hunger, my way would

surely address that problem.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

>>Am I reading the abstract wrong?

I don't think so. We are just looking it at from 2 different

perspectives.

470 grams is just over a lb of tomatoes, but as tomatoes are a very high

water content foods, its really not a lot of tomatoes. Like 3-4 medium

tomatoes. That 2 TB of olive oil is over 200 calories.

They way I Look at it, I am trying not only to get the most nutrients

per calorie but also the least calories per pound of food. That's why,

even if I have to eat a few more tomatoes, I would rather do it that

way, then put olive oil on my tomatoes. Not only do I get more lycopene

for the same calories, I also get more every other nutrient. And, as

one of the complaints or worries about CR-ON is hunger, my way would

surely address that problem.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Skin is a relative thing. If you scrape the skin you'll find the skin a yellow color, whereas the stuff attached is red. When I remove skins for sauces the red stays in.

Tomato paste probably does contain the whole tomato.

It looks to me my ration of lycopene is not that hard to come by just eating the whole tomato.

100 gm (~4 oz) fresh tomato = 2573 mcg per SR17.

sauce 15,111, paste 28764.

Regards.

[ ] Re: olive oil with cooked tomatoes

Hi folks:Somewhere I read recently that there is a great deal of lycopene in the SKINS of tomatoes. So, if this is true, the diced tomatoes that come in cans that appear not to contain the skin would be much less healthy than the stuff which includes the skin. I don't know for sure but my guess is that the 'ground tomatoes' and 'tomato paste' likely do include the skin?Rodney.> Hey, the PCa guys eat tomato paste on toast.> How much do we want?>

[Guest guest]

I use a couple of drops of oil - not enough to make a lot of hoopla over. It's in the " noise " level. And I feel (rightly or wrongly) I'm getting more lycopene. When this gets resolved, perhaps I'll change my mind.

on 8/11/2005 1:56 PM, drsusanforshey at drsusanforshey@... wrote:

I believe Jeff's point is to use no processed oils but eat more

tomatoes. I'm of this opinion too. All oils taste, well, " oily " to me.

Oils do NOT enhance the taste of food for me. On the contray they make

everything taste the same (to me, ie " oily " ).

[Guest guest]

But we do need some energy from either carbs or fats. I can't eat just cabbage.(in fact I don't eat cabbage anymore - not a nutrition issue but a survival issue).

Although I don't eat a lot of extracted oils, it's simply to keep my fat intake low, not calories.

You know what I really don't like about oils? They invariably are not what they say on the label. Safflower oil is NOT high LA - the store item has been modified to resist spoilage. I suspect the long shelf life of sunflower oil indicates the same. maybe soy oil as well.

The walnut oil is often from roasted walnuts.

If you let them play in your food, they'll play in your food.

But isn't it possible to make tomato sauces with some thing like olives or walnuts, or avocados to add the necessary fat? Not that much, right?

Now if you like sautéed eggplant with lotsa garlic, you gotta use some oil and I like olive oil for that. I also like sautéed okra, to which we sometimes add tomatoes, onions and garlic.

So why does everything have to be raw?

(at least I didn't offer using peanut butter).

Regards.

[ ] Re: olive oil with cooked tomatoes

I believe Jeff's point is to use no processed oils but eat moretomatoes. I'm of this opinion too. All oils taste, well, "oily" to me.Oils do NOT enhance the taste of food for me. On the contray they makeeverything taste the same (to me, ie "oily").

[Guest guest]

But we do need some energy from either carbs or fats. I can't eat just cabbage.(in fact I don't eat cabbage anymore - not a nutrition issue but a survival issue).

Although I don't eat a lot of extracted oils, it's simply to keep my fat intake low, not calories.

You know what I really don't like about oils? They invariably are not what they say on the label. Safflower oil is NOT high LA - the store item has been modified to resist spoilage. I suspect the long shelf life of sunflower oil indicates the same. maybe soy oil as well.

The walnut oil is often from roasted walnuts.

If you let them play in your food, they'll play in your food.

But isn't it possible to make tomato sauces with some thing like olives or walnuts, or avocados to add the necessary fat? Not that much, right?

Now if you like sautéed eggplant with lotsa garlic, you gotta use some oil and I like olive oil for that. I also like sautéed okra, to which we sometimes add tomatoes, onions and garlic.

So why does everything have to be raw?

(at least I didn't offer using peanut butter).

Regards.

[ ] Re: olive oil with cooked tomatoes

I believe Jeff's point is to use no processed oils but eat moretomatoes. I'm of this opinion too. All oils taste, well, "oily" to me.Oils do NOT enhance the taste of food for me. On the contray they makeeverything taste the same (to me, ie "oily").

[Guest guest]

>>I believe Jeff's point is to use no processed oils but eat more

tomatoes.

My point though was that the addition of oil will always raise the calorie

density of food and lower the overall nutrient density of the food, which to me,

is the opposite of the goal of CR-ON.

So, I dont have any problem with anyone using a little olive oil, (or a little

of anything) if they can make it fit in.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi JW:

I agree that a little olive oil is OK. But the Crete study I have

referred to here more than once does suggest it is definitely not a

good idea to overdo it, and not only because of the extra calories.

THERE IS NO DIETARY REASON I AM AWARE OF TO CONSUME **MONO-

UNSATURATED** FATS/OILS. If anyone knows of a good reason to eat

this stuff, apart from flavor, please let us know.

It may be that, for the same reason, we should not overdo safflower

oil either. But I haven't yet seen a study indicating that. The

Nurses' Health Study fairly strongly suggests otherwise.

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> But we do need some energy from either carbs or fats. I can't eat

just cabbage.(in fact I don't eat cabbage anymore - not a nutrition

issue but a survival issue).

> Although I don't eat a lot of extracted oils, it's simply to keep

my fat intake low, not calories.

> You know what I really don't like about oils? They invariably are

not what they say on the label. Safflower oil is NOT high LA - the

store item has been modified to resist spoilage. I suspect the long

shelf life of sunflower oil indicates the same. maybe soy oil as

well.

> The walnut oil is often from roasted walnuts.

> If you let them play in your food, they'll play in your food.

>

> But isn't it possible to make tomato sauces with some thing like

olives or walnuts, or avocados to add the necessary fat? Not that

much, right?

>

> Now if you like sautéed eggplant with lotsa garlic, you gotta use

some oil and I like olive oil for that. I also like sautéed okra, to

which we sometimes add tomatoes, onions and garlic.

> So why does everything have to be raw?

>

> (at least I didn't offer using peanut butter).

>

> Regards.

> [ ] Re: olive oil with cooked tomatoes

>

>

> I believe Jeff's point is to use no processed oils but eat more

> tomatoes. I'm of this opinion too. All oils taste, well, " oily "

to me.

> Oils do NOT enhance the taste of food for me. On the contray they

make

> everything taste the same (to me, ie " oily " ).

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't overdo any oils, just a little to sauté some stuff.

My wife, of whom I'm very fond, insists on using 2 strips of bacon for flavoring some foods like beans, greens.

My experiments with fish oil supps, fish, saff, sunflower, and other oils have always been bad.

Something like sautéed eggplant demands olive oil, but other sautéed stuff doesn't require that much. Why olive oil - because it doesn't have the higher LA/ALA. It's neutral on the hegsted eval.

My wife's 89 yo Bro in law does olive oil for motility (no small issue). Studies are not likely to include all the "benefits" of oils.

And like I said, the option for energy is fats or carbs. Fats make me too hot in summer. Someone in the North might like fats.

Regards.

[ ] Re: olive oil with cooked tomatoes

Hi JW:I agree that a little olive oil is OK. But the Crete study I have referred to here more than once does suggest it is definitely not a good idea to overdo it, and not only because of the extra calories. THERE IS NO DIETARY REASON I AM AWARE OF TO CONSUME **MONO-UNSATURATED** FATS/OILS. If anyone knows of a good reason to eat this stuff, apart from flavor, please let us know.It may be that, for the same reason, we should not overdo safflower oil either. But I haven't yet seen a study indicating that. The Nurses' Health Study fairly strongly suggests otherwise. Rodney.

[Guest guest]

> My wife, of whom I'm very fond, insists on using 2 strips of bacon

for flavoring some foods like beans, greens.

Has she tried turkey bacon? It has a lot less fat and tastes better

(IMO) than pork bacon. My kids prefer it, too.