RE: Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

August 16, 2005

Can't Parkinson's and Alzheimer's be attributed to people living longer? Both are mainly diseases of aging.

on 8/16/2005 9:37 AM, citpeks at citpeks@... wrote:

I often wonder about the role

of additives and contaminants on what seem to be increasing

percentages of individuals affected by autism, Parkinson's,

Alzheimer's, etc.

Old gezzers may not need to worry about trace contaminants, but their

children and grandchildren do. It will take many years to sort out

the effects of organic pollutants. It is best to be cautious.

Tony

August 16, 2005

Can't Parkinson's and Alzheimer's be attributed to people living longer? Both are mainly diseases of aging.

on 8/16/2005 9:37 AM, citpeks at citpeks@... wrote:

I often wonder about the role

of additives and contaminants on what seem to be increasing

percentages of individuals affected by autism, Parkinson's,

Alzheimer's, etc.

Old gezzers may not need to worry about trace contaminants, but their

children and grandchildren do. It will take many years to sort out

the effects of organic pollutants. It is best to be cautious.

Tony

August 16, 2005

I agree, Tony, even to the extent they add color to salmon. Or "natural" flavor to strawberries. Of course, we don't know the long term effects on bears.

And after DDT, came chlordane for many years, which was very effective on roaches too. It seems each "safe" insecticide is followed several years later by removal. So it seems I can't rely on the testing done to determine safety. And yet when I try to grow something, the bugs have a feast.

Walford alluded to toxins being stored in adipose, rec'd losing weight slowly, but if the toxins were put there to begin with why would the body route them to liver, etc, when dieting?

Regards.

[ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

There is a saying in Spanish: "Poco veneno no mata", which means "Alittle poison does not kill". However, if we are interested inlongevity we have to pay attention to little details like trans-fats,artificial food additives, and metallic and organic pollutants.I remember when DDT was sprayed from crop-duster airplanes to combatcotton boll weavils in Texas. The clouds of pesticide drifted withthe wind and the smell lingered for weeks. It was only after manyyears that it was discovered that DDT had estrogenic activity (PMID:4087314) and that it affected humans as well as birds. The Americanbald eagle almost became extinct as a result of pesticides.(http://www.epa.gov/espp/poster/eagle.htm)Small levels of organic pollutants may not have any significant effecton mature individuals, but the young and those of reproductive age maybe most at risk of any adverse effects. I often wonder about the roleof additives and contaminants on what seem to be increasingpercentages of individuals affected by autism, Parkinson's,Alzheimer's, etc.Old gezzers may not need to worry about trace contaminants, but theirchildren and grandchildren do. It will take many years to sort outthe effects of organic pollutants. It is best to be cautious.Tony

August 16, 2005

I agree, Tony, even to the extent they add color to salmon. Or "natural" flavor to strawberries. Of course, we don't know the long term effects on bears.

And after DDT, came chlordane for many years, which was very effective on roaches too. It seems each "safe" insecticide is followed several years later by removal. So it seems I can't rely on the testing done to determine safety. And yet when I try to grow something, the bugs have a feast.

Walford alluded to toxins being stored in adipose, rec'd losing weight slowly, but if the toxins were put there to begin with why would the body route them to liver, etc, when dieting?

Regards.

[ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

There is a saying in Spanish: "Poco veneno no mata", which means "Alittle poison does not kill". However, if we are interested inlongevity we have to pay attention to little details like trans-fats,artificial food additives, and metallic and organic pollutants.I remember when DDT was sprayed from crop-duster airplanes to combatcotton boll weavils in Texas. The clouds of pesticide drifted withthe wind and the smell lingered for weeks. It was only after manyyears that it was discovered that DDT had estrogenic activity (PMID:4087314) and that it affected humans as well as birds. The Americanbald eagle almost became extinct as a result of pesticides.(http://www.epa.gov/espp/poster/eagle.htm)Small levels of organic pollutants may not have any significant effecton mature individuals, but the young and those of reproductive age maybe most at risk of any adverse effects. I often wonder about the roleof additives and contaminants on what seem to be increasingpercentages of individuals affected by autism, Parkinson's,Alzheimer's, etc.Old gezzers may not need to worry about trace contaminants, but theirchildren and grandchildren do. It will take many years to sort outthe effects of organic pollutants. It is best to be cautious.Tony

August 16, 2005

Hi Rodney,

Surely, the people of Crete and Okinawa don't eat the same fish?

Do they eat colored farm raised salmon? Or fresh channel catfish grown in fresh water?

Tilapia from China?

Canned salmon, sardines, tuna?

We have little to choose from in the store - I'm always confronted with which fish?

Regards.

RE: [ ] Organic pollutants in salmon> > > Lets not forget.....> > Compared to consuming a more reasonable amount of 3-4 oz/day, a few days a week (as I might consider healthy)........ these bears eat 50-100lbs of salmon a day and they eat mostly the skin and fat when there are plenty of salmon. So, it is pretty clear that the bears are consuming far more pollutants than humans would. Even so there do not seem to be any significant health effects on the bears so I do not see this as much of a cause for concern.

August 16, 2005

Hi Rodney,

Surely, the people of Crete and Okinawa don't eat the same fish?

Do they eat colored farm raised salmon? Or fresh channel catfish grown in fresh water?

Tilapia from China?

Canned salmon, sardines, tuna?

We have little to choose from in the store - I'm always confronted with which fish?

Regards.

RE: [ ] Organic pollutants in salmon> > > Lets not forget.....> > Compared to consuming a more reasonable amount of 3-4 oz/day, a few days a week (as I might consider healthy)........ these bears eat 50-100lbs of salmon a day and they eat mostly the skin and fat when there are plenty of salmon. So, it is pretty clear that the bears are consuming far more pollutants than humans would. Even so there do not seem to be any significant health effects on the bears so I do not see this as much of a cause for concern.

August 16, 2005

You may want to search " blood brain barrier " .

here's one hit.

http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/blood-brain.html

JR

[ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

JW and Francesca,

As JW mentioned, fat tissue stores most of the organic toxins because

they are fat soluble (pp.78-80, 229-30 of BT120YD). And, guess what?

Page 161 says that the brain is about 60% fat.

Doesn't it seem logical that if 60% of your brain is polluted with

toxins there should be some abnormal cognitive or neurological

consequences? And the longer you live, the more likely that these

abnormalities will manifest themselves. People who die young will die

of CVD, stroke, or some of the other top five causes of death. People

who live to an old age are more likely to show results of degenerative

processes as their defenses weaken.

The amyloid plaques seen in the brains of Alzheimer's patients may

just be a defensive mechanism used by the body to bind contaminants

which unfortunately has bad side effects for the patient. The causes

of Alzheimer's are not really known, but aluminum is present in higher

concentrations in such patients. Could underarm deodorants, baking

powders, Maalox antacid, and aluminum cookware be responsible for

this? Nobody knows for sure yet.

Mercury is also known for causing mental impairment and was the source

of " mad-hatters disease " , when mercury was used to process the felt

for hats. PMID: 2672802

Tony

=======

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts22.html

Some studies show that people with Alzheimer's disease have more

aluminum than usual in their brains. We do not know whether aluminum

causes the disease or whether the buildup of aluminum happens to

people who already have the disease. Infants and adults who received

large doses of aluminum as a treatment for another problem developed

bone diseases, which suggests that aluminum may cause skeletal

problems. Some sensitive people develop skin rashes from using

aluminum chlorohydrate deodorants.

=======

From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...> wrote:

> Walford alluded to toxins being stored in adipose, rec'd losing

weight slowly, but if the toxins were put there to begin with why

would the body route them to liver, etc, when dieting?

From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...> wrote:

Can't Parkinson's and Alzheimer's be attributed to people living

longer? Both are mainly diseases of aging.

August 16, 2005

You may want to search " blood brain barrier " .

here's one hit.

http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/blood-brain.html

JR

[ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

JW and Francesca,

As JW mentioned, fat tissue stores most of the organic toxins because

they are fat soluble (pp.78-80, 229-30 of BT120YD). And, guess what?

Page 161 says that the brain is about 60% fat.

Doesn't it seem logical that if 60% of your brain is polluted with

toxins there should be some abnormal cognitive or neurological

consequences? And the longer you live, the more likely that these

abnormalities will manifest themselves. People who die young will die

of CVD, stroke, or some of the other top five causes of death. People

who live to an old age are more likely to show results of degenerative

processes as their defenses weaken.

The amyloid plaques seen in the brains of Alzheimer's patients may

just be a defensive mechanism used by the body to bind contaminants

which unfortunately has bad side effects for the patient. The causes

of Alzheimer's are not really known, but aluminum is present in higher

concentrations in such patients. Could underarm deodorants, baking

powders, Maalox antacid, and aluminum cookware be responsible for

this? Nobody knows for sure yet.

Mercury is also known for causing mental impairment and was the source

of " mad-hatters disease " , when mercury was used to process the felt

for hats. PMID: 2672802

Tony

=======

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts22.html

Some studies show that people with Alzheimer's disease have more

aluminum than usual in their brains. We do not know whether aluminum

causes the disease or whether the buildup of aluminum happens to

people who already have the disease. Infants and adults who received

large doses of aluminum as a treatment for another problem developed

bone diseases, which suggests that aluminum may cause skeletal

problems. Some sensitive people develop skin rashes from using

aluminum chlorohydrate deodorants.

=======

From: " jwwright " <jwwright@e...> wrote:

> Walford alluded to toxins being stored in adipose, rec'd losing

weight slowly, but if the toxins were put there to begin with why

would the body route them to liver, etc, when dieting?

From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...> wrote:

Can't Parkinson's and Alzheimer's be attributed to people living

longer? Both are mainly diseases of aging.

August 16, 2005

Thanks, an interesting discussion.

I'm reminded that some people get brainal disease's, apparently thru the barrier, like ALS. There are others, mostly unknown etiology.

Also, there is a pathway thru the nose which I think can bypass the barrier, in the case of breathed in stuff.

I'm not sure the barrier can discriminate against an organic creation of recent years.

OTOH, the stuff that can get in, get's in because it has a receptor. Now suppose I make an Organo toxic alcohol? Just musing.

Regards.

RE: [ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

You may want to search "blood brain barrier".here's one hit.http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/blood-brain.htmlJR-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of citpeksSent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:43 AM Subject: [ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmonJW and Francesca,As JW mentioned, fat tissue stores most of the organic toxins becausethey are fat soluble (pp.78-80, 229-30 of BT120YD). And, guess what?Page 161 says that the brain is about 60% fat.Doesn't it seem logical that if 60% of your brain is polluted withtoxins there should be some abnormal cognitive or neurologicalconsequences? And the longer you live, the more likely that theseabnormalities will manifest themselves. People who die young will dieof CVD, stroke, or some of the other top five causes of death. Peoplewho live to an old age are more likely to show results of degenerativeprocesses as their defenses weaken.The amyloid plaques seen in the brains of Alzheimer's patients mayjust be a defensive mechanism used by the body to bind contaminantswhich unfortunately has bad side effects for the patient. The causesof Alzheimer's are not really known, but aluminum is present in higherconcentrations in such patients. Could underarm deodorants, bakingpowders, Maalox antacid, and aluminum cookware be responsible forthis? Nobody knows for sure yet.Mercury is also known for causing mental impairment and was the sourceof "mad-hatters disease", when mercury was used to process the feltfor hats. PMID: 2672802Tony

August 16, 2005

Thanks, an interesting discussion.

I'm reminded that some people get brainal disease's, apparently thru the barrier, like ALS. There are others, mostly unknown etiology.

Also, there is a pathway thru the nose which I think can bypass the barrier, in the case of breathed in stuff.

I'm not sure the barrier can discriminate against an organic creation of recent years.

OTOH, the stuff that can get in, get's in because it has a receptor. Now suppose I make an Organo toxic alcohol? Just musing.

Regards.

RE: [ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

You may want to search "blood brain barrier".here's one hit.http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/blood-brain.htmlJR-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of citpeksSent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:43 AM Subject: [ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmonJW and Francesca,As JW mentioned, fat tissue stores most of the organic toxins becausethey are fat soluble (pp.78-80, 229-30 of BT120YD). And, guess what?Page 161 says that the brain is about 60% fat.Doesn't it seem logical that if 60% of your brain is polluted withtoxins there should be some abnormal cognitive or neurologicalconsequences? And the longer you live, the more likely that theseabnormalities will manifest themselves. People who die young will dieof CVD, stroke, or some of the other top five causes of death. Peoplewho live to an old age are more likely to show results of degenerativeprocesses as their defenses weaken.The amyloid plaques seen in the brains of Alzheimer's patients mayjust be a defensive mechanism used by the body to bind contaminantswhich unfortunately has bad side effects for the patient. The causesof Alzheimer's are not really known, but aluminum is present in higherconcentrations in such patients. Could underarm deodorants, bakingpowders, Maalox antacid, and aluminum cookware be responsible forthis? Nobody knows for sure yet.Mercury is also known for causing mental impairment and was the sourceof "mad-hatters disease", when mercury was used to process the feltfor hats. PMID: 2672802Tony

August 17, 2005

Rodney,

If they want to stress fish, they have to indicate which fish is best for CVD AND cancer, etal. Refs are quite specific against RED meat, eg, but generalities like "soy", white meat, don't tell me much. They need to come up with a specific diet and I think they have maybe several reasonable diets, and people have written books with menus, etc.

Like what is soy? Is that fried soybeans, soy protein isolate, tofu, raw, steamed green soybeans?

I worked with a guy in 1988, that ate whitefish (again non specific) twice every day to lower his cholesterol. He smelled like fish. When is asked what effect - none. He didn't try something else after 2 yrs, his answer being maybe it takes longer.

I tend to think people eat fish mostly because they like it.

So now we have the fish influence and no Ornish type study to show reduction in athero. The only one I know.

Odd the tested Ornish diet uses lacto veg.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

Hi JW:Which fish? Whichever you choose. Canned is VERY convenient. The more expensive species are often the tastiest. Atlantic Snapper or Pompano are wonderful when you can find them. Split, lightly floured and then broiled is one of the very best ways to cook fish - especially, imo, mackerel. Muenière (if you do not mind a little butter occasionally) is wonderful. And any plain white fish fillet is a great 'vehicle' for your favorite sauce. Of course some sauces are healthier than others. And some of the better ones survive a few adjustments in the interests of CRON - by starting with the Pritikin white sauce as the base. And do not forget japanese sashimi, served in a restaurant owned by japanese people, LOLOL.Rodney.

August 17, 2005

Rodney,

If they want to stress fish, they have to indicate which fish is best for CVD AND cancer, etal. Refs are quite specific against RED meat, eg, but generalities like "soy", white meat, don't tell me much. They need to come up with a specific diet and I think they have maybe several reasonable diets, and people have written books with menus, etc.

Like what is soy? Is that fried soybeans, soy protein isolate, tofu, raw, steamed green soybeans?

I worked with a guy in 1988, that ate whitefish (again non specific) twice every day to lower his cholesterol. He smelled like fish. When is asked what effect - none. He didn't try something else after 2 yrs, his answer being maybe it takes longer.

I tend to think people eat fish mostly because they like it.

So now we have the fish influence and no Ornish type study to show reduction in athero. The only one I know.

Odd the tested Ornish diet uses lacto veg.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

Hi JW:Which fish? Whichever you choose. Canned is VERY convenient. The more expensive species are often the tastiest. Atlantic Snapper or Pompano are wonderful when you can find them. Split, lightly floured and then broiled is one of the very best ways to cook fish - especially, imo, mackerel. Muenière (if you do not mind a little butter occasionally) is wonderful. And any plain white fish fillet is a great 'vehicle' for your favorite sauce. Of course some sauces are healthier than others. And some of the better ones survive a few adjustments in the interests of CRON - by starting with the Pritikin white sauce as the base. And do not forget japanese sashimi, served in a restaurant owned by japanese people, LOLOL.Rodney.

August 17, 2005

>>o dd the tested Ornish diet uses lacto veg.

The recent ornish studies, on cancer, are dairy free.

Jeff

August 17, 2005

>>o dd the tested Ornish diet uses lacto veg.

The recent ornish studies, on cancer, are dairy free.

Jeff

August 18, 2005

Jeff, you say studies. Is it an approved, tested diet for cancer patients, cancer prevention?

Regards.

RE: [ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

>>o dd the tested Ornish diet uses lacto veg.

The recent ornish studies, on cancer, are dairy free.

Jeff

August 18, 2005

Jeff, you say studies. Is it an approved, tested diet for cancer patients, cancer prevention?

Regards.

RE: [ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon

>>o dd the tested Ornish diet uses lacto veg.

The recent ornish studies, on cancer, are dairy free.

Jeff

August 18, 2005

I think we have to continue what we do, and keep the intake as low as feasible.

Studies, associations do not a proof make.

You know when I thought I might have PCa I went to the archives and dug out all the herbs, etc, related to cancer. I came up with an herb mix based on the data, which should offer some advantage. Later I saw that same mix being touted on TV as a BPH cure. Well, it did nothing. Saw palmetto did nothing. In fact nothing did anything except a prescription drug. My Urol has no suggestions for supps at all and he tells me what his patients are doing. Best guess - aspirin.

Now either the drug companies have cornered all the stuff that works, and don't write articles about it or the drug itself is taken from a plant, purified and patented.

Tell me what you want to prove and I'll design a test to get those results. It's not science. The use of statistics have to applied carefully.

For example, I think it's obvious milk doesn't cause cancer. How Many people drink milk or milk products? It doesn't pass the logic test. Lotsa good foods will aid cancers because cancers need nutrition too.

They select the people who have cancer and ask them questions. They can't run the test to prove it. Remember how hard it was to show tobacco caused lung cancer? And they didn't prove that either. In that case, we have obvious associations because those folks aren't here anymore. And we've had a lot of operations that point to cancer. What DA thought about inhaling smoke anyway?

The same is true for fish. If eating fish prevented IHD, and it's rec'd to not eat it every day BTW, how can a little fish overcome the stuff I eat on all the other days?

The first Mediterranean study I read did not rec fish. The people said it would make them bleed if they ate too much. Their primary source of food was lentils, but the meat eating writers didn't hear that. And the olive oil, they focused on that like the people drank it.

Well out of the Medit studies came the DASH, and it's not vegetarian as many thought it would be, and it's not fishy. In fact it looks like a plain ole diet with very little added fat. And about 100+ protein. And a few "servings" of veggies.

But all those things are not selected for longevity, rather mortality. So I think if I want to get past 80yo, where my oldest ancestors had problems (cerebral apoplexy and senility), I need to not eat fish, and concentrate on lower intake. I really think it's about calories, not the type of food one eats, because I just can't separate all the

factors involved in human systems.

As soon as I hear someone has a pathway, eg, EPA, I start delving into it and I find they're, let's say stretching the truth. The body regulates everything. A beautiful and complex system that can heal itself, switch modes, and can survive 6 generations.

I thought at the beginning all I had to do was start writing down all the data and put it into equations and eventually I'd have a model. Too many variables. No one can convince they have a model, ergo, no certainty of any equations. Maybe the drug companies have a few.

Just pick up the Merck Manual and count the "etiology unknowns".

And no, I won't eat cabbage anymore, cruci or not.

In the case of fish there's just too much opportunity to insert toxins, maybe a lot we don't know about yet. The biomass they swim in can contain many chemical reactions, and we test only a few. That's usually when someone gets sick..

Keep moving, cause when you quit, they think you're dead and bury you.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Organic pollutants in salmon> > > Hi JW:> > Which fish? Whichever you choose. Canned is VERY convenient. The > more expensive species are often the tastiest. Atlantic Snapper or > Pompano are wonderful when you can find them. Split, lightly floured > and then broiled is one of the very best ways to cook fish - > especially, imo, mackerel. Muenière (if you do not mind a little > butter occasionally) is wonderful. And any plain white fish fillet > is a great 'vehicle' for your favorite sauce. Of course some sauces > are healthier than others. And some of the better ones survive a few > adjustments in the interests of CRON - by starting with the Pritikin > white sauce as the base. > > And do not forget japanese sashimi, served in a restaurant owned by > japanese people, LOLOL.> > Rodney.

August 18, 2005