Guest guest Posted September 3, 2005 Report Share Posted September 3, 2005 Al: A most interesting article and I believe worthy of inclusion in the files. A must-read IMHO. Thank you on behalf of the group for this. This is the kind of thing that I personally find much more valuable than overly technical studies posted or studies that are only tangentially related.. on 9/3/2005 3:28 PM, Al Pater at old542000@... wrote: Hi All, The aging enigma in its various aspects appears to be fairly presented in: http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.html Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2005 Report Share Posted September 3, 2005 Al: A most interesting article and I believe worthy of inclusion in the files. A must-read IMHO. Thank you on behalf of the group for this. This is the kind of thing that I personally find much more valuable than overly technical studies posted or studies that are only tangentially related.. on 9/3/2005 3:28 PM, Al Pater at old542000@... wrote: Hi All, The aging enigma in its various aspects appears to be fairly presented in: http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.html Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.html " The Metabolic Conundrum The FIRKO mouse eats a lot yet remains skinny, suggesting it has a high metabolism. How is it burning all the extra calories? “We haven’t figured this out yet,” admits Kahn. “The obvious answer would be that they are more active.” But they aren’t: “If you put them in a cage that has light beams that measure how much they move around, FIRKO mice are not more active than normal mice.” Even their internal body temperatures are the same.{temp is not a measure of heat } “Obviously, they must be burning off the energy in some way,” continues Kahn, “because if you take in the calories, you either have to store them, burn them, or excrete them. They are not excreting them, so we believe they are being burned up in excess energy utilization by some mechanism that does not involve being more active.” {perhaps latent heat excreted by lungs? } One hypothesis is that the FIRKO mice are metabolically inefficient. Kakn has observed that normal mice, like humans, vary in how much weight they gain for a given amount of food that they eat. “Some mice will literally gain 30 percent more weight on the same amount of calories than another mouse,” he says. “Others are just like friends who say that they can eat anything and never gain weight” (though he notes that quantifying and correcting for varying activity levels can be difficult). There is some evidence, albeit controversial, that suggests that calorie-restricted animals exhibit an altered metabolism. In this state, says Sinclair, they are slightly less efficient at converting food into energy, but produce fewer free radicals and so experience less oxidative damage. Like a car with pollution controls, the mitochondria of a calorie-restricted animal, and perhaps of the FIRKO mouse, may produce less energy but burn fuel more cleanly." {This brings me back to my metabolism diff between a low fat and a high fat diet. Eating low fat (LF) I "feel" cold - I don't know how to measure that, but it must be that the body doesn't have the heat to move to the skin to keep it warm. In 98 deg weather, I can walk a mile comfortably. Eating high fat (HF) (50%), I feel hot, too hot to walk a mile in 98 deg comfortably. I must be converting too much energy into heat. And my blood pressure will be higher. These two diets effect me noticeably different. With LF, I set the thermostat to 78 deg and sleep, with a tee shirt, under a comforter. With HF, I set the thermostat at 75 deg and sleep with no tee shirt, no comforter. When I treadmill and measure BP, it is noticeably higher. Also, my calculation for where the calories go is not exactly the same. It's about 0.3% diff. That means I can eat more calories. So where does the heat go? Into latent heat, must be. My lungs convert more water into water vapor with HF. Point is if I can change this heat produced to a lower level and operate with the same calories, I must need more calories with HF than LF for the wasted heat. Regards. [ ] Aging enigma Hi All,The aging enigma in its various aspects appears to be fairly presented in:http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.htmlAl Pater, PhD; email: old542000@...__________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.html " The Metabolic Conundrum The FIRKO mouse eats a lot yet remains skinny, suggesting it has a high metabolism. How is it burning all the extra calories? “We haven’t figured this out yet,” admits Kahn. “The obvious answer would be that they are more active.” But they aren’t: “If you put them in a cage that has light beams that measure how much they move around, FIRKO mice are not more active than normal mice.” Even their internal body temperatures are the same.{temp is not a measure of heat } “Obviously, they must be burning off the energy in some way,” continues Kahn, “because if you take in the calories, you either have to store them, burn them, or excrete them. They are not excreting them, so we believe they are being burned up in excess energy utilization by some mechanism that does not involve being more active.” {perhaps latent heat excreted by lungs? } One hypothesis is that the FIRKO mice are metabolically inefficient. Kakn has observed that normal mice, like humans, vary in how much weight they gain for a given amount of food that they eat. “Some mice will literally gain 30 percent more weight on the same amount of calories than another mouse,” he says. “Others are just like friends who say that they can eat anything and never gain weight” (though he notes that quantifying and correcting for varying activity levels can be difficult). There is some evidence, albeit controversial, that suggests that calorie-restricted animals exhibit an altered metabolism. In this state, says Sinclair, they are slightly less efficient at converting food into energy, but produce fewer free radicals and so experience less oxidative damage. Like a car with pollution controls, the mitochondria of a calorie-restricted animal, and perhaps of the FIRKO mouse, may produce less energy but burn fuel more cleanly." {This brings me back to my metabolism diff between a low fat and a high fat diet. Eating low fat (LF) I "feel" cold - I don't know how to measure that, but it must be that the body doesn't have the heat to move to the skin to keep it warm. In 98 deg weather, I can walk a mile comfortably. Eating high fat (HF) (50%), I feel hot, too hot to walk a mile in 98 deg comfortably. I must be converting too much energy into heat. And my blood pressure will be higher. These two diets effect me noticeably different. With LF, I set the thermostat to 78 deg and sleep, with a tee shirt, under a comforter. With HF, I set the thermostat at 75 deg and sleep with no tee shirt, no comforter. When I treadmill and measure BP, it is noticeably higher. Also, my calculation for where the calories go is not exactly the same. It's about 0.3% diff. That means I can eat more calories. So where does the heat go? Into latent heat, must be. My lungs convert more water into water vapor with HF. Point is if I can change this heat produced to a lower level and operate with the same calories, I must need more calories with HF than LF for the wasted heat. Regards. [ ] Aging enigma Hi All,The aging enigma in its various aspects appears to be fairly presented in:http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.htmlAl Pater, PhD; email: old542000@...__________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 JW, Very interesting personal perspective. The researchers should probably be measuring humdity in the mouse environs. I wonder if there are genetically-induced metabolic differences among individuals? (Like natural " FIRKO-ism " ). I've noticed nearly the opposite effects that you have (although I haven't quantified them as well as you have). A few years ago I tried a high fat, low carb Atkins-like diet for a couple of weeks and barely had enough energy to get through the day. I need carbs to move and carbs to feel warm. Diane --- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...> wrote: > http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.html > " > The Metabolic Conundrum > > The FIRKO mouse eats a lot yet remains skinny, suggesting it has a high metabolism. How is it burning all the extra calories? " We haven't figured this out yet, " admits Kahn. " The obvious answer would be that they are more active. " But they aren't: " If you put them in a cage that has light beams that measure how much they move around, FIRKO mice are not more active than normal mice. " Even their internal body temperatures are the same.{temp is not a measure of heat } " Obviously, they must be burning off the energy in some way, " continues Kahn, " because if you take in the calories, you either have to store them, burn them, or excrete them. They are not excreting them, so we believe they are being burned up in excess energy utilization by some mechanism that does not involve being more active. " {perhaps latent heat excreted by lungs? } > > One hypothesis is that the FIRKO mice are metabolically inefficient. Kakn has observed that normal mice, like humans, vary in how much weight they gain for a given amount of food that they eat. " Some mice will literally gain 30 percent more weight on the same amount of calories than another mouse, " he says. " Others are just like friends who say that they can eat anything and never gain weight " (though he notes that quantifying and correcting for varying activity levels can be difficult). > > There is some evidence, albeit controversial, that suggests that calorie-restricted animals exhibit an altered metabolism. In this state, says Sinclair, they are slightly less efficient at converting food into energy, but produce fewer free radicals and so experience less oxidative damage. Like a car with pollution controls, the mitochondria of a calorie-restricted animal, and perhaps of the FIRKO mouse, may produce less energy but burn fuel more cleanly. " > > {This brings me back to my metabolism diff between a low fat and a high fat diet. Eating low fat (LF) I " feel " cold - I don't know how to measure that, but it must be that the body doesn't have the heat to move to the skin to keep it warm. In 98 deg weather, I can walk a mile comfortably. > > Eating high fat (HF) (50%), I feel hot, too hot to walk a mile in 98 deg comfortably. I must be converting too much energy into heat. And my blood pressure will be higher. > > These two diets effect me noticeably different. With LF, I set the thermostat to 78 deg and sleep, with a tee shirt, under a comforter. With HF, I set the thermostat at 75 deg and sleep with no tee shirt, no comforter. When I treadmill and measure BP, it is noticeably higher. > > Also, my calculation for where the calories go is not exactly the same. It's about 0.3% diff. That means I can eat more calories. > > So where does the heat go? Into latent heat, must be. My lungs convert more water into water vapor with HF. > > Point is if I can change this heat produced to a lower level and operate with the same calories, I must need more calories with HF than LF for the wasted heat. > > Regards. > > > > > > > > > > > > [ ] Aging enigma > > > Hi All, > > The aging enigma in its various aspects appears to be fairly presented in: > > http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.html > > Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@y... > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 JW, Very interesting personal perspective. The researchers should probably be measuring humdity in the mouse environs. I wonder if there are genetically-induced metabolic differences among individuals? (Like natural " FIRKO-ism " ). I've noticed nearly the opposite effects that you have (although I haven't quantified them as well as you have). A few years ago I tried a high fat, low carb Atkins-like diet for a couple of weeks and barely had enough energy to get through the day. I need carbs to move and carbs to feel warm. Diane --- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...> wrote: > http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.html > " > The Metabolic Conundrum > > The FIRKO mouse eats a lot yet remains skinny, suggesting it has a high metabolism. How is it burning all the extra calories? " We haven't figured this out yet, " admits Kahn. " The obvious answer would be that they are more active. " But they aren't: " If you put them in a cage that has light beams that measure how much they move around, FIRKO mice are not more active than normal mice. " Even their internal body temperatures are the same.{temp is not a measure of heat } " Obviously, they must be burning off the energy in some way, " continues Kahn, " because if you take in the calories, you either have to store them, burn them, or excrete them. They are not excreting them, so we believe they are being burned up in excess energy utilization by some mechanism that does not involve being more active. " {perhaps latent heat excreted by lungs? } > > One hypothesis is that the FIRKO mice are metabolically inefficient. Kakn has observed that normal mice, like humans, vary in how much weight they gain for a given amount of food that they eat. " Some mice will literally gain 30 percent more weight on the same amount of calories than another mouse, " he says. " Others are just like friends who say that they can eat anything and never gain weight " (though he notes that quantifying and correcting for varying activity levels can be difficult). > > There is some evidence, albeit controversial, that suggests that calorie-restricted animals exhibit an altered metabolism. In this state, says Sinclair, they are slightly less efficient at converting food into energy, but produce fewer free radicals and so experience less oxidative damage. Like a car with pollution controls, the mitochondria of a calorie-restricted animal, and perhaps of the FIRKO mouse, may produce less energy but burn fuel more cleanly. " > > {This brings me back to my metabolism diff between a low fat and a high fat diet. Eating low fat (LF) I " feel " cold - I don't know how to measure that, but it must be that the body doesn't have the heat to move to the skin to keep it warm. In 98 deg weather, I can walk a mile comfortably. > > Eating high fat (HF) (50%), I feel hot, too hot to walk a mile in 98 deg comfortably. I must be converting too much energy into heat. And my blood pressure will be higher. > > These two diets effect me noticeably different. With LF, I set the thermostat to 78 deg and sleep, with a tee shirt, under a comforter. With HF, I set the thermostat at 75 deg and sleep with no tee shirt, no comforter. When I treadmill and measure BP, it is noticeably higher. > > Also, my calculation for where the calories go is not exactly the same. It's about 0.3% diff. That means I can eat more calories. > > So where does the heat go? Into latent heat, must be. My lungs convert more water into water vapor with HF. > > Point is if I can change this heat produced to a lower level and operate with the same calories, I must need more calories with HF than LF for the wasted heat. > > Regards. > > > > > > > > > > > > [ ] Aging enigma > > > Hi All, > > The aging enigma in its various aspects appears to be fairly presented in: > > http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.html > > Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@y... > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 Me too. I can hardly do 3 miles without carbs. And lack of fibre is another issue. But, I can get the glucose for 300 kcals easily into a high fat diet - I'm not following the Atkin's 26gms of carbs. Also, I can eat a lot of lettuce for 300 kcals. If I had to do real work, I'd need more carbs. The "genetically induced" differences might well be attributed to changes due to aging, right? I know I don't have the same body as age 20. Regards. [ ] Re: Aging enigma JW,Very interesting personal perspective. The researchers shouldprobably be measuring humdity in the mouse environs.I wonder if there are genetically-induced metabolic differences amongindividuals? (Like natural "FIRKO-ism"). I've noticed nearly theopposite effects that you have (although I haven't quantified them aswell as you have). A few years ago I tried a high fat, low carbAtkins-like diet for a couple of weeks and barely had enough energy toget through the day. I need carbs to move and carbs to feel warm.Diane--- In , "jwwright" <jwwright@e...>wrote:> http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.html> "> The Metabolic Conundrum> > The FIRKO mouse eats a lot yet remains skinny, suggesting it has ahigh metabolism. How is it burning all the extra calories? "We haven'tfigured this out yet," admits Kahn. "The obvious answer would be thatthey are more active." But they aren't: "If you put them in a cagethat has light beams that measure how much they move around, FIRKOmice are not more active than normal mice." Even their internal bodytemperatures are the same.{temp is not a measure of heat } "Obviously, they must be burning off the energy in some way,"continues Kahn, "because if you take in the calories, you either haveto store them, burn them, or excrete them. They are not excretingthem, so we believe they are being burned up in excess energyutilization by some mechanism that does not involve being moreactive." {perhaps latent heat excreted by lungs? }> > One hypothesis is that the FIRKO mice are metabolically inefficient.Kakn has observed that normal mice, like humans, vary in how muchweight they gain for a given amount of food that they eat. "Some micewill literally gain 30 percent more weight on the same amount ofcalories than another mouse," he says. "Others are just like friendswho say that they can eat anything and never gain weight" (though henotes that quantifying and correcting for varying activity levels canbe difficult).> > There is some evidence, albeit controversial, that suggests thatcalorie-restricted animals exhibit an altered metabolism. In thisstate, says Sinclair, they are slightly less efficient atconverting food into energy, but produce fewer free radicals and soexperience less oxidative damage. Like a car with pollution controls,the mitochondria of a calorie-restricted animal, and perhaps of theFIRKO mouse, may produce less energy but burn fuel more cleanly."> > {This brings me back to my metabolism diff between a low fat and ahigh fat diet. Eating low fat (LF) I "feel" cold - I don't know how tomeasure that, but it must be that the body doesn't have the heat tomove to the skin to keep it warm. In 98 deg weather, I can walk a milecomfortably. > > Eating high fat (HF) (50%), I feel hot, too hot to walk a mile in 98deg comfortably. I must be converting too much energy into heat. Andmy blood pressure will be higher. > > These two diets effect me noticeably different. With LF, I set thethermostat to 78 deg and sleep, with a tee shirt, under a comforter.With HF, I set the thermostat at 75 deg and sleep with no tee shirt,no comforter. When I treadmill and measure BP, it is noticeablyhigher. > > Also, my calculation for where the calories go is not exactly thesame. It's about 0.3% diff. That means I can eat more calories. > > So where does the heat go? Into latent heat, must be. My lungsconvert more water into water vapor with HF. > > Point is if I can change this heat produced to a lower level andoperate with the same calories, I must need more calories with HF thanLF for the wasted heat. > > Regards.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 Me too. I can hardly do 3 miles without carbs. And lack of fibre is another issue. But, I can get the glucose for 300 kcals easily into a high fat diet - I'm not following the Atkin's 26gms of carbs. Also, I can eat a lot of lettuce for 300 kcals. If I had to do real work, I'd need more carbs. The "genetically induced" differences might well be attributed to changes due to aging, right? I know I don't have the same body as age 20. Regards. [ ] Re: Aging enigma JW,Very interesting personal perspective. The researchers shouldprobably be measuring humdity in the mouse environs.I wonder if there are genetically-induced metabolic differences amongindividuals? (Like natural "FIRKO-ism"). I've noticed nearly theopposite effects that you have (although I haven't quantified them aswell as you have). A few years ago I tried a high fat, low carbAtkins-like diet for a couple of weeks and barely had enough energy toget through the day. I need carbs to move and carbs to feel warm.Diane--- In , "jwwright" <jwwright@e...>wrote:> http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/090548.html> "> The Metabolic Conundrum> > The FIRKO mouse eats a lot yet remains skinny, suggesting it has ahigh metabolism. How is it burning all the extra calories? "We haven'tfigured this out yet," admits Kahn. "The obvious answer would be thatthey are more active." But they aren't: "If you put them in a cagethat has light beams that measure how much they move around, FIRKOmice are not more active than normal mice." Even their internal bodytemperatures are the same.{temp is not a measure of heat } "Obviously, they must be burning off the energy in some way,"continues Kahn, "because if you take in the calories, you either haveto store them, burn them, or excrete them. They are not excretingthem, so we believe they are being burned up in excess energyutilization by some mechanism that does not involve being moreactive." {perhaps latent heat excreted by lungs? }> > One hypothesis is that the FIRKO mice are metabolically inefficient.Kakn has observed that normal mice, like humans, vary in how muchweight they gain for a given amount of food that they eat. "Some micewill literally gain 30 percent more weight on the same amount ofcalories than another mouse," he says. "Others are just like friendswho say that they can eat anything and never gain weight" (though henotes that quantifying and correcting for varying activity levels canbe difficult).> > There is some evidence, albeit controversial, that suggests thatcalorie-restricted animals exhibit an altered metabolism. In thisstate, says Sinclair, they are slightly less efficient atconverting food into energy, but produce fewer free radicals and soexperience less oxidative damage. Like a car with pollution controls,the mitochondria of a calorie-restricted animal, and perhaps of theFIRKO mouse, may produce less energy but burn fuel more cleanly."> > {This brings me back to my metabolism diff between a low fat and ahigh fat diet. Eating low fat (LF) I "feel" cold - I don't know how tomeasure that, but it must be that the body doesn't have the heat tomove to the skin to keep it warm. In 98 deg weather, I can walk a milecomfortably. > > Eating high fat (HF) (50%), I feel hot, too hot to walk a mile in 98deg comfortably. I must be converting too much energy into heat. Andmy blood pressure will be higher. > > These two diets effect me noticeably different. With LF, I set thethermostat to 78 deg and sleep, with a tee shirt, under a comforter.With HF, I set the thermostat at 75 deg and sleep with no tee shirt,no comforter. When I treadmill and measure BP, it is noticeablyhigher. > > Also, my calculation for where the calories go is not exactly thesame. It's about 0.3% diff. That means I can eat more calories. > > So where does the heat go? Into latent heat, must be. My lungsconvert more water into water vapor with HF. > > Point is if I can change this heat produced to a lower level andoperate with the same calories, I must need more calories with HF thanLF for the wasted heat. > > Regards.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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