Re: Another diet -more personnal thoughts

[Guest guest]

And you will never hear me cite Framingham in this relation. The fact

that its director should be quoted as saying such a thing in light of

everything else that has come out of this study over the years that

says the contrary is suspicious enough. But again the conflicting

things one hears about cholesterol make me unwilling right now to take

extraordinary steps to lower it as an active 37 year old.

Or to discontinue use of coconut oil which not being of animal origin

does not contain any. I spent six months in the early 90s in Sri lanka

as part of youth exchange group, hosted by a family which hardly

consumed anything but red lentils, coconut oil (hell! coconut was

everywhere and in every thing)and some yogurt. I don't think their

lifespan was anything to brag about though they definitely practiced a

kind of calorie restriction (I was hungry all the time while sharing

the family meals)and appeared

very healthy if only a bit puny (especially those of tamil origin).

Could one suspect protein calorie malnutrition? For a while I thought

it might have been their almost vegan diet...Of course none of this is

scientific, just the observation of one person remembering experiences

originally seen in a totally different light.

I was more accessible to native dietary factors on my recent bike trip to

Cuba. Folks there (the men at least)were very lean and hardy way into

old age

despite consuming large amounts of carbohydrates (sugar cane

plantations everywhere)beans and some dairy coming from a zebu/cow

cross breed. CHD seemed rare but strokes were not. I don't know about

cancer. They all seem very physically active and, on top of that, to

eat much less than we normally do here.

Thank you for your welcome

>

> A response to a similar article about the relationship between

saturated fat, cholesterol and CVD. The response below was written to

someone who basically asked the same question you do and raised the

same issue. They used a different study that the one in the JAMA

last year and also raised the issue that Dr Castelli is often quoted

as saying " The more saturated fat one ate, the more cholesterol one

ate, the

> more calories one ate, the lower peoples' serum cholesterol. we

found that the people who ate the most cholesterol, ate the most

saturated

> fat, ate the most calories, weighed the least and were the most

physically active. " -- Dr. Castelli, Director of the

> prestigious Framingham Study

>

> It seems about once a year, someone joins the list and raises this

issue.

>

> Welcome aboard.

>

> Jeff

>

> PS I left the names to indict the guilty!

>

> Hi Logan:

>

> Do you remember the quotation you supplied (attached below, between

> the '=============' lines), attributed to Dr. Castelli? Since you

> made that post I have contacted Dr. Castelli to inquire about the

> circumstances in which those comments were made. Here is what he

> told me about it:

>

> He says he was observing that in one of the first dietary history

> studies done at Framingham a data set was used which showed that

> those who ate the most saturated fat had the lowest cholesterol

> readings. That seemed surprising at the time. But even more

> surprising, the same data also indicated that those in the group who

> ate the most calories weighed the least.

>

> Since eating more and weighing less appeared contradictory, this

> raised questions. They realized something must be awry, so they set

> out to determine what it was. The answer turned out to be that in

> this particular group of subjects those who ate the most saturated

> fat also had the highest energy expenditure. So that, although they

> ate more, they weighed less because they were burning a lot more

> calories. Also relevant was the fact that exercise appreciably

> reduces blood cholesterol in the very short term.

>

> So, in order to figure out whether it was eating saturated fats that

> was lowering cholesterol, or the exercise instead, they investigated

> further. Specifically, a direct quote cut-and-pasted from Dr.

> Castelli's recent communication:

>

> " .... how do you know that eating cholesterol and saturated fat raise

> your serum cholesterol? You have to do a metabolic ward study. Being

> on a metabolic ward is like being in prison and the two best studies

> were done in Minneapolis (Dr. Ancel Keys) and Boston (Mark Hegsted).

> They would increase the cholesterol and saturated fat in your diet,

> controlling for everything else and showed the more cholesterol you

> ate, or the more saturated fat you ate, the higher you serum

> cholesterol went. "

>

> In other words it was the higher physical activity that had accounted

> for the lower blood cholesterols of the subjects in the earlier

> study - exercise was the confounder that had not been controlled for.

>

> Further, he goes on:

>

> " Virtually all the early diet trials were based on removing saturated

> fat and cholesterol from you diet and lowering your serum

> cholesterol. They also showed that the better they did this, the

> better was the fall in coronary heart disease. "

>

> So, Dr. Castelli is saying, not only did lowering saturated fat

> intake drop cholesterol, it also reduced heart disease. And further,

> Dr. Castelli says:

>

> " ....... the latest diet data from Framingham showed that the women of

> Framingham who ate a high fat, low calorie diet doubled the deposits

> in their carotid arteries compared to women on a heart healthy diet. "

>

> And still further he notes that the impact on lipids of a high

> saturated fat diet is even greater than that measured by standard

> cholesterol tests. This is because the tests are normally done after

> an eight to ten hour fast. But the atherogenic effects (chylomicron

> remnants) peak around the time the meal is eaten and then diminish

> dramatically as the hours go by. So they are much greater in the

> period immediately following a high fat meal than when the tested

> blood is normally drawn many hours later.

> -------------------

> So the actual views held by the source you provided to support your

> arguments about the causes of heart disease, ARE THE OPPOSITE of what

> you would have us believe them to be. You quoted the first part of

> the story, then for some reason omitted the rest - that is, by far

> the most important part. In my opinion, that was less than helpful.

>

> Rodney.

>

[Guest guest]

And you will never hear me cite Framingham in this relation. The fact

that its director should be quoted as saying such a thing in light of

everything else that has come out of this study over the years that

says the contrary is suspicious enough. But again the conflicting

things one hears about cholesterol make me unwilling right now to take

extraordinary steps to lower it as an active 37 year old.

Or to discontinue use of coconut oil which not being of animal origin

does not contain any. I spent six months in the early 90s in Sri lanka

as part of youth exchange group, hosted by a family which hardly

consumed anything but red lentils, coconut oil (hell! coconut was

everywhere and in every thing)and some yogurt. I don't think their

lifespan was anything to brag about though they definitely practiced a

kind of calorie restriction (I was hungry all the time while sharing

the family meals)and appeared

very healthy if only a bit puny (especially those of tamil origin).

Could one suspect protein calorie malnutrition? For a while I thought

it might have been their almost vegan diet...Of course none of this is

scientific, just the observation of one person remembering experiences

originally seen in a totally different light.

I was more accessible to native dietary factors on my recent bike trip to

Cuba. Folks there (the men at least)were very lean and hardy way into

old age

despite consuming large amounts of carbohydrates (sugar cane

plantations everywhere)beans and some dairy coming from a zebu/cow

cross breed. CHD seemed rare but strokes were not. I don't know about

cancer. They all seem very physically active and, on top of that, to

eat much less than we normally do here.

Thank you for your welcome

>

> A response to a similar article about the relationship between

saturated fat, cholesterol and CVD. The response below was written to

someone who basically asked the same question you do and raised the

same issue. They used a different study that the one in the JAMA

last year and also raised the issue that Dr Castelli is often quoted

as saying " The more saturated fat one ate, the more cholesterol one

ate, the

> more calories one ate, the lower peoples' serum cholesterol. we

found that the people who ate the most cholesterol, ate the most

saturated

> fat, ate the most calories, weighed the least and were the most

physically active. " -- Dr. Castelli, Director of the

> prestigious Framingham Study

>

> It seems about once a year, someone joins the list and raises this

issue.

>

> Welcome aboard.

>

> Jeff

>

> PS I left the names to indict the guilty!

>

> Hi Logan:

>

> Do you remember the quotation you supplied (attached below, between

> the '=============' lines), attributed to Dr. Castelli? Since you

> made that post I have contacted Dr. Castelli to inquire about the

> circumstances in which those comments were made. Here is what he

> told me about it:

>

> He says he was observing that in one of the first dietary history

> studies done at Framingham a data set was used which showed that

> those who ate the most saturated fat had the lowest cholesterol

> readings. That seemed surprising at the time. But even more

> surprising, the same data also indicated that those in the group who

> ate the most calories weighed the least.

>

> Since eating more and weighing less appeared contradictory, this

> raised questions. They realized something must be awry, so they set

> out to determine what it was. The answer turned out to be that in

> this particular group of subjects those who ate the most saturated

> fat also had the highest energy expenditure. So that, although they

> ate more, they weighed less because they were burning a lot more

> calories. Also relevant was the fact that exercise appreciably

> reduces blood cholesterol in the very short term.

>

> So, in order to figure out whether it was eating saturated fats that

> was lowering cholesterol, or the exercise instead, they investigated

> further. Specifically, a direct quote cut-and-pasted from Dr.

> Castelli's recent communication:

>

> " .... how do you know that eating cholesterol and saturated fat raise

> your serum cholesterol? You have to do a metabolic ward study. Being

> on a metabolic ward is like being in prison and the two best studies

> were done in Minneapolis (Dr. Ancel Keys) and Boston (Mark Hegsted).

> They would increase the cholesterol and saturated fat in your diet,

> controlling for everything else and showed the more cholesterol you

> ate, or the more saturated fat you ate, the higher you serum

> cholesterol went. "

>

> In other words it was the higher physical activity that had accounted

> for the lower blood cholesterols of the subjects in the earlier

> study - exercise was the confounder that had not been controlled for.

>

> Further, he goes on:

>

> " Virtually all the early diet trials were based on removing saturated

> fat and cholesterol from you diet and lowering your serum

> cholesterol. They also showed that the better they did this, the

> better was the fall in coronary heart disease. "

>

> So, Dr. Castelli is saying, not only did lowering saturated fat

> intake drop cholesterol, it also reduced heart disease. And further,

> Dr. Castelli says:

>

> " ....... the latest diet data from Framingham showed that the women of

> Framingham who ate a high fat, low calorie diet doubled the deposits

> in their carotid arteries compared to women on a heart healthy diet. "

>

> And still further he notes that the impact on lipids of a high

> saturated fat diet is even greater than that measured by standard

> cholesterol tests. This is because the tests are normally done after

> an eight to ten hour fast. But the atherogenic effects (chylomicron

> remnants) peak around the time the meal is eaten and then diminish

> dramatically as the hours go by. So they are much greater in the

> period immediately following a high fat meal than when the tested

> blood is normally drawn many hours later.

> -------------------

> So the actual views held by the source you provided to support your

> arguments about the causes of heart disease, ARE THE OPPOSITE of what

> you would have us believe them to be. You quoted the first part of

> the story, then for some reason omitted the rest - that is, by far

> the most important part. In my opinion, that was less than helpful.

>

> Rodney.

>

[Guest guest]

Live longer if you eat animal products? I say it would depend a lot on

their respective functionality, a factor which goes beyond it

being a source of cholesterol or a provider of calories. For example,

the liver of such a large (if properly fed and healthy) ruminent as

the bison (if you can get it)possesses an unsurpassed mineral profile,

vitamins A and D, and is perhaps the most nutrient dense food I can

think of,

also full of cholesterol, which, since I think it should be eaten only

every couple of weeks in small quantities, does not matter much in the

end.

Question is, can a person live in good health longer on a vegan diet?

I've read some of the past threads on this issue and most seem not

inclined to

think so. It is one thing to eat 3 or 4 eggs a week, quite another to

eat none.

Another closely related question: can the body make all the

cholesterol it supposedly needs without some minimum quantities of

animal products?

>

> I won't argue the coconut oil, yet.

> But isn't it obvious I don't need to eat animal fat or cholesterol

that my body will make?

> Ever read anything biochem-wise that says eat animal tissue and

you'll live longer?

> As long as I burn what I eat, it shouldn't make a lot of diff what I

eat.

> Just my take.

>

> Regards.

> [ ] Re: Another diet -more personnal thoughts

>

>

> And you will never hear me cite Framingham in this relation. The fact

> that its director should be quoted as saying such a thing in light of

> everything else that has come out of this study over the years that

> says the contrary is suspicious enough. But again the conflicting

> things one hears about cholesterol make me unwilling right now to take

> extraordinary steps to lower it as an active 37 year old.

>

> Or to discontinue use of coconut oil which not being of animal origin

> does not contain any. I spent six months in the early 90s in Sri lanka

> as part of youth exchange group, hosted by a family which hardly

> consumed anything but red lentils, coconut oil (hell! coconut was

> everywhere and in every thing)and some yogurt. I don't think their

> lifespan was anything to brag about though they definitely practiced a

> kind of calorie restriction (I was hungry all the time while sharing

> the family meals)and appeared

> very healthy if only a bit puny (especially those of tamil origin).

> Could one suspect protein calorie malnutrition? For a while I thought

> it might have been their almost vegan diet...Of course none of this is

> scientific, just the observation of one person remembering experiences

> originally seen in a totally different light.

>

> I was more accessible to native dietary factors on my recent bike

trip to

> Cuba. Folks there (the men at least)were very lean and hardy way into

> old age

> despite consuming large amounts of carbohydrates (sugar cane

> plantations everywhere)beans and some dairy coming from a zebu/cow

> cross breed. CHD seemed rare but strokes were not. I don't know about

> cancer. They all seem very physically active and, on top of that, to

> eat much less than we normally do here.

>

> Thank you for your welcome

>

>

[Guest guest]

Live longer if you eat animal products? I say it would depend a lot on

their respective functionality, a factor which goes beyond it

being a source of cholesterol or a provider of calories. For example,

the liver of such a large (if properly fed and healthy) ruminent as

the bison (if you can get it)possesses an unsurpassed mineral profile,

vitamins A and D, and is perhaps the most nutrient dense food I can

think of,

also full of cholesterol, which, since I think it should be eaten only

every couple of weeks in small quantities, does not matter much in the

end.

Question is, can a person live in good health longer on a vegan diet?

I've read some of the past threads on this issue and most seem not

inclined to

think so. It is one thing to eat 3 or 4 eggs a week, quite another to

eat none.

Another closely related question: can the body make all the

cholesterol it supposedly needs without some minimum quantities of

animal products?

>

> I won't argue the coconut oil, yet.

> But isn't it obvious I don't need to eat animal fat or cholesterol

that my body will make?

> Ever read anything biochem-wise that says eat animal tissue and

you'll live longer?

> As long as I burn what I eat, it shouldn't make a lot of diff what I

eat.

> Just my take.

>

> Regards.

> [ ] Re: Another diet -more personnal thoughts

>

>

> And you will never hear me cite Framingham in this relation. The fact

> that its director should be quoted as saying such a thing in light of

> everything else that has come out of this study over the years that

> says the contrary is suspicious enough. But again the conflicting

> things one hears about cholesterol make me unwilling right now to take

> extraordinary steps to lower it as an active 37 year old.

>

> Or to discontinue use of coconut oil which not being of animal origin

> does not contain any. I spent six months in the early 90s in Sri lanka

> as part of youth exchange group, hosted by a family which hardly

> consumed anything but red lentils, coconut oil (hell! coconut was

> everywhere and in every thing)and some yogurt. I don't think their

> lifespan was anything to brag about though they definitely practiced a

> kind of calorie restriction (I was hungry all the time while sharing

> the family meals)and appeared

> very healthy if only a bit puny (especially those of tamil origin).

> Could one suspect protein calorie malnutrition? For a while I thought

> it might have been their almost vegan diet...Of course none of this is

> scientific, just the observation of one person remembering experiences

> originally seen in a totally different light.

>

> I was more accessible to native dietary factors on my recent bike

trip to

> Cuba. Folks there (the men at least)were very lean and hardy way into

> old age

> despite consuming large amounts of carbohydrates (sugar cane

> plantations everywhere)beans and some dairy coming from a zebu/cow

> cross breed. CHD seemed rare but strokes were not. I don't know about

> cancer. They all seem very physically active and, on top of that, to

> eat much less than we normally do here.

>

> Thank you for your welcome

>

>

[Guest guest]

I won't argue the coconut oil, yet.

But isn't it obvious I don't need to eat animal fat or cholesterol that my body will make?

Ever read anything biochem-wise that says eat animal tissue and you'll live longer?

As long as I burn what I eat, it shouldn't make a lot of diff what I eat.

Just my take.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Another diet -more personnal thoughts

And you will never hear me cite Framingham in this relation. The factthat its director should be quoted as saying such a thing in light ofeverything else that has come out of this study over the years thatsays the contrary is suspicious enough. But again the conflictingthings one hears about cholesterol make me unwilling right now to takeextraordinary steps to lower it as an active 37 year old. Or to discontinue use of coconut oil which not being of animal origindoes not contain any. I spent six months in the early 90s in Sri lankaas part of youth exchange group, hosted by a family which hardlyconsumed anything but red lentils, coconut oil (hell! coconut waseverywhere and in every thing)and some yogurt. I don't think theirlifespan was anything to brag about though they definitely practiced akind of calorie restriction (I was hungry all the time while sharingthe family meals)and appearedvery healthy if only a bit puny (especially those of tamil origin).Could one suspect protein calorie malnutrition? For a while I thoughtit might have been their almost vegan diet...Of course none of this isscientific, just the observation of one person remembering experiencesoriginally seen in a totally different light.I was more accessible to native dietary factors on my recent bike trip toCuba. Folks there (the men at least)were very lean and hardy way intoold agedespite consuming large amounts of carbohydrates (sugar caneplantations everywhere)beans and some dairy coming from a zebu/cowcross breed. CHD seemed rare but strokes were not. I don't know aboutcancer. They all seem very physically active and, on top of that, toeat much less than we normally do here. Thank you for your welcome

[Guest guest]

I won't argue the coconut oil, yet.

But isn't it obvious I don't need to eat animal fat or cholesterol that my body will make?

Ever read anything biochem-wise that says eat animal tissue and you'll live longer?

As long as I burn what I eat, it shouldn't make a lot of diff what I eat.

Just my take.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Another diet -more personnal thoughts

And you will never hear me cite Framingham in this relation. The factthat its director should be quoted as saying such a thing in light ofeverything else that has come out of this study over the years thatsays the contrary is suspicious enough. But again the conflictingthings one hears about cholesterol make me unwilling right now to takeextraordinary steps to lower it as an active 37 year old. Or to discontinue use of coconut oil which not being of animal origindoes not contain any. I spent six months in the early 90s in Sri lankaas part of youth exchange group, hosted by a family which hardlyconsumed anything but red lentils, coconut oil (hell! coconut waseverywhere and in every thing)and some yogurt. I don't think theirlifespan was anything to brag about though they definitely practiced akind of calorie restriction (I was hungry all the time while sharingthe family meals)and appearedvery healthy if only a bit puny (especially those of tamil origin).Could one suspect protein calorie malnutrition? For a while I thoughtit might have been their almost vegan diet...Of course none of this isscientific, just the observation of one person remembering experiencesoriginally seen in a totally different light.I was more accessible to native dietary factors on my recent bike trip toCuba. Folks there (the men at least)were very lean and hardy way intoold agedespite consuming large amounts of carbohydrates (sugar caneplantations everywhere)beans and some dairy coming from a zebu/cowcross breed. CHD seemed rare but strokes were not. I don't know aboutcancer. They all seem very physically active and, on top of that, toeat much less than we normally do here. Thank you for your welcome

[Guest guest]

> Another closely related question: can the body make all the

> cholesterol it supposedly needs without some minimum quantities of

> animal products?

>

I had a friend who ate <10% fat diet with zero animal products. He

did this because he had genetically high cholesterol - i.e. his body

produced it for him. (His father had died of a heart attack in his

40s and he didn't want to follow in his footsteps). My friend lasted

until his early 50s before dying from multiple blockages in his heart.

I am certain you don't need to eat animal products in order to produce

cholesterol. Some people produce more than others.

Diane

[Guest guest]

> Another closely related question: can the body make all the

> cholesterol it supposedly needs without some minimum quantities of

> animal products?

>

I had a friend who ate <10% fat diet with zero animal products. He

did this because he had genetically high cholesterol - i.e. his body

produced it for him. (His father had died of a heart attack in his

40s and he didn't want to follow in his footsteps). My friend lasted

until his early 50s before dying from multiple blockages in his heart.

I am certain you don't need to eat animal products in order to produce

cholesterol. Some people produce more than others.

Diane

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I had a friend who ate <10% fat diet with zero animal products. He

> did this because he had genetically high cholesterol - i.e. his body

> produced it for him. (His father had died of a heart attack in his

> 40s and he didn't want to follow in his footsteps). My friend lasted

> until his early 50s before dying from multiple blockages in his heart.

>

> I am certain you don't need to eat animal products in order to produce

> cholesterol. Some people produce more than others.

>

> Diane

>

Genetically high cholesterol (familial hypercholesterolemia) occurs in

1 out of 500 people. According to the Hegsted equation, a diet high

in polyunsaturated fats, specially omega-6 fats (linoleic acid) would

probably be better for such a person than a low fat diet.

Tony

====

Acta Paediatr Scand. 1981 Sep;70(5):677-82. Related Articles, Links

The effect of a virtually cholesterol-free, high-linoleic-acid

vegetarian diet on serum lipoproteins of children with familial

hypercholesterolemia (type II-A).

Fernandes J, Dijkhuis-Stoffelsma R, Groot PH, Grose WF,

Ambagtsheer JJ.

The effect of a virtually cholesterol-free, high-linoleic-acid

vegetarian diet and a high-linoleic-acid " normal " diet with a moderate

cholesterol content was tested in 39 children heterozygote for

hypercholesterolemia type II-A. The diets were administered in an

outpatient cross-over design of two periods of 10 weeks each and the

serum lipoproteins were analyzed at the end of the two 10-week

periods. The vegetarian diet induced a decrease in serum

concentrations of LDL-II total and free cholesterol and of apo-B, by

an average of 10%, whereas HDL cholesterol and apo-A-I decreased by

4%. The disproportionately large change in LDL compared to the small

change in HDL was interpreted as an antiatherogenic effect of the

vegetarian diet.

PMID: 7324917

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I had a friend who ate <10% fat diet with zero animal products. He

> did this because he had genetically high cholesterol - i.e. his body

> produced it for him. (His father had died of a heart attack in his

> 40s and he didn't want to follow in his footsteps). My friend lasted

> until his early 50s before dying from multiple blockages in his heart.

>

> I am certain you don't need to eat animal products in order to produce

> cholesterol. Some people produce more than others.

>

> Diane

>

Genetically high cholesterol (familial hypercholesterolemia) occurs in

1 out of 500 people. According to the Hegsted equation, a diet high

in polyunsaturated fats, specially omega-6 fats (linoleic acid) would

probably be better for such a person than a low fat diet.

Tony

====

Acta Paediatr Scand. 1981 Sep;70(5):677-82. Related Articles, Links

The effect of a virtually cholesterol-free, high-linoleic-acid

vegetarian diet on serum lipoproteins of children with familial

hypercholesterolemia (type II-A).

Fernandes J, Dijkhuis-Stoffelsma R, Groot PH, Grose WF,

Ambagtsheer JJ.

The effect of a virtually cholesterol-free, high-linoleic-acid

vegetarian diet and a high-linoleic-acid " normal " diet with a moderate

cholesterol content was tested in 39 children heterozygote for

hypercholesterolemia type II-A. The diets were administered in an

outpatient cross-over design of two periods of 10 weeks each and the

serum lipoproteins were analyzed at the end of the two 10-week

periods. The vegetarian diet induced a decrease in serum

concentrations of LDL-II total and free cholesterol and of apo-B, by

an average of 10%, whereas HDL cholesterol and apo-A-I decreased by

4%. The disproportionately large change in LDL compared to the small

change in HDL was interpreted as an antiatherogenic effect of the

vegetarian diet.

PMID: 7324917

[Guest guest]

True,

the protein issue is a diff subject and I'm not convinced I don't need some things like taurine, maybe many other minor aminos, who knows?

We standardize on a "known" set of biochem when, in fact, that biochem may change due to aging, and probably does.

So I do eat some meats but not a lot, more at times than others.

I think I need some taurine, l-carnitine, maybe arginine.

And maybe this year we'll read a new article that says ASA interferes with taurine production (example only).

I can't get excited about an age old vegan idea, until I get more data - not likely to happen.

It seems to me, the peoples who exhibit longer lifespan and eat vegan don't build high rise buildings.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Another diet -more personnal thoughts> > > And you will never hear me cite Framingham in this relation. The fact> that its director should be quoted as saying such a thing in light of> everything else that has come out of this study over the years that> says the contrary is suspicious enough. But again the conflicting> things one hears about cholesterol make me unwilling right now to take> extraordinary steps to lower it as an active 37 year old. > > Or to discontinue use of coconut oil which not being of animal origin> does not contain any. I spent six months in the early 90s in Sri lanka> as part of youth exchange group, hosted by a family which hardly> consumed anything but red lentils, coconut oil (hell! coconut was> everywhere and in every thing)and some yogurt. I don't think their> lifespan was anything to brag about though they definitely practiced a> kind of calorie restriction (I was hungry all the time while sharing> the family meals)and appeared> very healthy if only a bit puny (especially those of tamil origin).> Could one suspect protein calorie malnutrition? For a while I thought> it might have been their almost vegan diet...Of course none of this is> scientific, just the observation of one person remembering experiences> originally seen in a totally different light.> > I was more accessible to native dietary factors on my recent biketrip to> Cuba. Folks there (the men at least)were very lean and hardy way into> old age> despite consuming large amounts of carbohydrates (sugar cane> plantations everywhere)beans and some dairy coming from a zebu/cow> cross breed. CHD seemed rare but strokes were not. I don't know about> cancer. They all seem very physically active and, on top of that, to> eat much less than we normally do here. > > Thank you for your welcome > >

[Guest guest]

True,

the protein issue is a diff subject and I'm not convinced I don't need some things like taurine, maybe many other minor aminos, who knows?

We standardize on a "known" set of biochem when, in fact, that biochem may change due to aging, and probably does.

So I do eat some meats but not a lot, more at times than others.

I think I need some taurine, l-carnitine, maybe arginine.

And maybe this year we'll read a new article that says ASA interferes with taurine production (example only).

I can't get excited about an age old vegan idea, until I get more data - not likely to happen.

It seems to me, the peoples who exhibit longer lifespan and eat vegan don't build high rise buildings.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Another diet -more personnal thoughts> > > And you will never hear me cite Framingham in this relation. The fact> that its director should be quoted as saying such a thing in light of> everything else that has come out of this study over the years that> says the contrary is suspicious enough. But again the conflicting> things one hears about cholesterol make me unwilling right now to take> extraordinary steps to lower it as an active 37 year old. > > Or to discontinue use of coconut oil which not being of animal origin> does not contain any. I spent six months in the early 90s in Sri lanka> as part of youth exchange group, hosted by a family which hardly> consumed anything but red lentils, coconut oil (hell! coconut was> everywhere and in every thing)and some yogurt. I don't think their> lifespan was anything to brag about though they definitely practiced a> kind of calorie restriction (I was hungry all the time while sharing> the family meals)and appeared> very healthy if only a bit puny (especially those of tamil origin).> Could one suspect protein calorie malnutrition? For a while I thought> it might have been their almost vegan diet...Of course none of this is> scientific, just the observation of one person remembering experiences> originally seen in a totally different light.> > I was more accessible to native dietary factors on my recent biketrip to> Cuba. Folks there (the men at least)were very lean and hardy way into> old age> despite consuming large amounts of carbohydrates (sugar cane> plantations everywhere)beans and some dairy coming from a zebu/cow> cross breed. CHD seemed rare but strokes were not. I don't know about> cancer. They all seem very physically active and, on top of that, to> eat much less than we normally do here. > > Thank you for your welcome > >

[Guest guest]

They now know, these people not only make more, they recover more from excretion, so a pill to stop that works great.

But the question always in my mind is that 3 females in mine and my wife's family all over 80, exhibit this "familial hypercholestero..", so I sincerely doubt the 1 in 500.

My wife has it and takes the pills, but is that the right thing to do when you have such familial data? At 68, she has no blockages (per angiogram), so I also doubt how good the connection is between the high TC and CVD. Granted those with CVD in their family, it's a concern.

IOW, it's not an if and only if, scientific fact.

And what is pointing out is there may be other aspects of cholesterol INTAKE, that bear study. I haven't looked at that because I'm a low TC person, and mine and my wife's family are not the type like your friend. There are large variations in this serum TC thing, not necessarily agonized or antagonized by diet. The serum test is to find out who might be in that high risk group.

The rest of us might be yak eaters.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Another diet -more personnal thoughts

> Another closely related question: can the body make all the> cholesterol it supposedly needs without some minimum quantities of> animal products?> I had a friend who ate <10% fat diet with zero animal products. Hedid this because he had genetically high cholesterol - i.e. his bodyproduced it for him. (His father had died of a heart attack in his40s and he didn't want to follow in his footsteps). My friend lasteduntil his early 50s before dying from multiple blockages in his heart.I am certain you don't need to eat animal products in order to producecholesterol. Some people produce more than others.Diane

[Guest guest]

They now know, these people not only make more, they recover more from excretion, so a pill to stop that works great.

But the question always in my mind is that 3 females in mine and my wife's family all over 80, exhibit this "familial hypercholestero..", so I sincerely doubt the 1 in 500.

My wife has it and takes the pills, but is that the right thing to do when you have such familial data? At 68, she has no blockages (per angiogram), so I also doubt how good the connection is between the high TC and CVD. Granted those with CVD in their family, it's a concern.

IOW, it's not an if and only if, scientific fact.

And what is pointing out is there may be other aspects of cholesterol INTAKE, that bear study. I haven't looked at that because I'm a low TC person, and mine and my wife's family are not the type like your friend. There are large variations in this serum TC thing, not necessarily agonized or antagonized by diet. The serum test is to find out who might be in that high risk group.

The rest of us might be yak eaters.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Another diet -more personnal thoughts

> Another closely related question: can the body make all the> cholesterol it supposedly needs without some minimum quantities of> animal products?> I had a friend who ate <10% fat diet with zero animal products. Hedid this because he had genetically high cholesterol - i.e. his bodyproduced it for him. (His father had died of a heart attack in his40s and he didn't want to follow in his footsteps). My friend lasteduntil his early 50s before dying from multiple blockages in his heart.I am certain you don't need to eat animal products in order to producecholesterol. Some people produce more than others.Diane