Guest guest Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know whether those using fermented dairy products in their cron practice have experienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seems strongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article when consuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt and kefir contain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially the latter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care for the solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour liquid known as " intact " whey. I would be wary of using commercially available whey because the " other bioactive whey components " may be lacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties of whey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA or its ACE-inhibitory peptides. For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of days of fermentation at room temperature as this causes a very significant seperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results in a very reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferred substrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the final product). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together and drink it. Regards, > > Hi All, > > It seems to be from the not pdf-available below paper that " the branched chain amino > acid (BCAA) content of whey appears to contribute significantly to preservation of > lean mass during energy restriction and expansion of lean mass in the absence of > energy restriction " . > > Background - Thermodynamics and energy balance are clearly core factors involved in > the obesity epidemic, with small increases in energy intake coupled with declining > physical activity resulting in net positive energy balance and progressive weight > and fat gain. Consequently, the obesity epidemic is often reduced to a simple > question of energy balance, and proposed strategies accordingly focus upon best > approaches to induce negative energy balance. However, obesity is a complex genetic > trait, with multiple genes interacting to confer relative resistance or > susceptibility to positive energy balance. Similarly, dietary components and > patterns may affect the same metabolic pathways affected by genetic susceptibility > and thereby alter energy portioning and obesity risk. A growing body of evidence, > discussed in this review, suggests that dairy whey contains compounds that exert > such effects and thereby contribute to healthy weight management. > > Review - We have found dairy-rich diets to attenuate body fat accumulation and weigh > gain during periods of over-consumption of an energy dense diet and to increase fat > breakdown and oxidation while preserving lean tissue during energy restriction. The > underlying theory is that the calcitriol released in response to sub-optimal calcium > intakes stimulates lipogenic gene expression and lipogenesis and inhibits lipolysis > and fat oxidation, resulting in increased adipocyte triglyceride storage and excess > adiposity, while the higher levels of calcium contained in dairy suppress calcitriol > and exert the opposite effect. In addition, calcitriol inhibits adipocyte > mitochondrial uncoupling and apoptosis, resulting in increased efficiency of energy > storage on low calcium diets, while greater adipocyte uncoupling, energy dissipation > and apoptosis occurs on dairy-rich diets. While these effects are attributable, in > part, to calcium suppression of calcitriol, dairy is more than twice as effective as > calcium per se in inhibiting adiposity, and this additional bioactivity resides in > the whey fraction. Moreover, calcium is without effect on preserving lean mass > during energy restriction, while whey confers significant protection. The > angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitory activity of whey contains a portion > of this additional activity, as it attenuates autocrine angiotensin II-induced > adipocyte lipogenesis. However, combining calcium and whey-derived ACE inhibitors > produces an effect that is significantly less potent than that of intact whey, > indicating the presence of other anti-obesity factors in whey; the identity of these > factors is presently under investigation. Moreover, this combination does not retain > the ability of intact whey to protect lean mass. Instead, the branched chain amino > acid (BCAA) content of whey appears to contribute significantly to preservation of > lean mass during energy restriction and expansion of lean mass in the absence of > energy restriction; this effect is likely due to leucine stimulation of muscle > protein synthesis and may also contribute to reduced adiposity as a result of the > additional energetic cost of muscle protein synthesis. However, whey-free diets > containing BCAA confer less lean mass protection than intact whey. > > Conclusions - Whey components have the potential to play a significant role in > weight management and protection of lean mass during dieting. While the calcium > content of whey accounts for a portion of this effect (<50%), there are clearly > other bioactive whey components which also contribute. However, although both > ACE-inhibitory peptides and BCAA contribute to this additional bioactivity, they > cannot fully account for the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties of whey, > indicating that there are other, as of yet unidentified, whey components which > contribute to these effects. > > Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@y... > > > > __________________________________________ > DSL – Something to write home about. > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > dsl. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know whether those using fermented dairy products in their cron practice have experienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seems strongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article when consuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt and kefir contain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially the latter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care for the solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour liquid known as " intact " whey. I would be wary of using commercially available whey because the " other bioactive whey components " may be lacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties of whey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA or its ACE-inhibitory peptides. For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of days of fermentation at room temperature as this causes a very significant seperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results in a very reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferred substrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the final product). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together and drink it. Regards, > > Hi All, > > It seems to be from the not pdf-available below paper that " the branched chain amino > acid (BCAA) content of whey appears to contribute significantly to preservation of > lean mass during energy restriction and expansion of lean mass in the absence of > energy restriction " . > > Background - Thermodynamics and energy balance are clearly core factors involved in > the obesity epidemic, with small increases in energy intake coupled with declining > physical activity resulting in net positive energy balance and progressive weight > and fat gain. Consequently, the obesity epidemic is often reduced to a simple > question of energy balance, and proposed strategies accordingly focus upon best > approaches to induce negative energy balance. However, obesity is a complex genetic > trait, with multiple genes interacting to confer relative resistance or > susceptibility to positive energy balance. Similarly, dietary components and > patterns may affect the same metabolic pathways affected by genetic susceptibility > and thereby alter energy portioning and obesity risk. A growing body of evidence, > discussed in this review, suggests that dairy whey contains compounds that exert > such effects and thereby contribute to healthy weight management. > > Review - We have found dairy-rich diets to attenuate body fat accumulation and weigh > gain during periods of over-consumption of an energy dense diet and to increase fat > breakdown and oxidation while preserving lean tissue during energy restriction. The > underlying theory is that the calcitriol released in response to sub-optimal calcium > intakes stimulates lipogenic gene expression and lipogenesis and inhibits lipolysis > and fat oxidation, resulting in increased adipocyte triglyceride storage and excess > adiposity, while the higher levels of calcium contained in dairy suppress calcitriol > and exert the opposite effect. In addition, calcitriol inhibits adipocyte > mitochondrial uncoupling and apoptosis, resulting in increased efficiency of energy > storage on low calcium diets, while greater adipocyte uncoupling, energy dissipation > and apoptosis occurs on dairy-rich diets. While these effects are attributable, in > part, to calcium suppression of calcitriol, dairy is more than twice as effective as > calcium per se in inhibiting adiposity, and this additional bioactivity resides in > the whey fraction. Moreover, calcium is without effect on preserving lean mass > during energy restriction, while whey confers significant protection. The > angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitory activity of whey contains a portion > of this additional activity, as it attenuates autocrine angiotensin II-induced > adipocyte lipogenesis. However, combining calcium and whey-derived ACE inhibitors > produces an effect that is significantly less potent than that of intact whey, > indicating the presence of other anti-obesity factors in whey; the identity of these > factors is presently under investigation. Moreover, this combination does not retain > the ability of intact whey to protect lean mass. Instead, the branched chain amino > acid (BCAA) content of whey appears to contribute significantly to preservation of > lean mass during energy restriction and expansion of lean mass in the absence of > energy restriction; this effect is likely due to leucine stimulation of muscle > protein synthesis and may also contribute to reduced adiposity as a result of the > additional energetic cost of muscle protein synthesis. However, whey-free diets > containing BCAA confer less lean mass protection than intact whey. > > Conclusions - Whey components have the potential to play a significant role in > weight management and protection of lean mass during dieting. While the calcium > content of whey accounts for a portion of this effect (<50%), there are clearly > other bioactive whey components which also contribute. However, although both > ACE-inhibitory peptides and BCAA contribute to this additional bioactivity, they > cannot fully account for the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties of whey, > indicating that there are other, as of yet unidentified, whey components which > contribute to these effects. > > Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@y... > > > > __________________________________________ > DSL – Something to write home about. > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > dsl. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 All very confusing. I don't think whey is whey anymore, as in left over from cheese making. I have no idea if kefir or yogurt has any branched chain aminos, or what it is. What I do know is that a lot of various strains of things that "corrupt" milk exist and I'd prefer to use those from a controlled process by people who have done it to make money and not get sued out of business. I view making kefir like selecting my own mushrooms. Just my take. Dean Pomerleau used kefir for a while, as I recall. Now a vegan. I don't use whey much anymore. Milk seems to have enough branched chain aminos. Regards. [ ] Re: Whey CR effects A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know whetherthose using fermented dairy products in their cron practice haveexperienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seemsstrongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article whenconsuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt and kefircontain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially thelatter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care forthe solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour liquidknown as "intact" whey. I would be wary of using commerciallyavailable whey because the "other bioactive whey components" may belacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties ofwhey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA or itsACE-inhibitory peptides.For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of days offermentation at room temperature as this causes a very significantseperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results in avery reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferredsubstrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the finalproduct). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together anddrink it. Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 All very confusing. I don't think whey is whey anymore, as in left over from cheese making. I have no idea if kefir or yogurt has any branched chain aminos, or what it is. What I do know is that a lot of various strains of things that "corrupt" milk exist and I'd prefer to use those from a controlled process by people who have done it to make money and not get sued out of business. I view making kefir like selecting my own mushrooms. Just my take. Dean Pomerleau used kefir for a while, as I recall. Now a vegan. I don't use whey much anymore. Milk seems to have enough branched chain aminos. Regards. [ ] Re: Whey CR effects A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know whetherthose using fermented dairy products in their cron practice haveexperienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seemsstrongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article whenconsuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt and kefircontain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially thelatter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care forthe solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour liquidknown as "intact" whey. I would be wary of using commerciallyavailable whey because the "other bioactive whey components" may belacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties ofwhey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA or itsACE-inhibitory peptides.For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of days offermentation at room temperature as this causes a very significantseperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results in avery reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferredsubstrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the finalproduct). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together anddrink it. Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 Kefir making is basically cheese making as the strained solids bear a striking resemblance in consistency and taste to cream cheese. So technically speaking the clear liquid left over qualifies as whey. The difference between kefir and cheese is the bacterial culture which is many times more complex in kefir than in either yogurt or cheese though it accomplishes the same basic thing: the transformation of milk sugars into lactic acid. Doing this yourself can be considered much more safe than picking out your own mushrooms (or drinking water)considering that the pH level of cultured milk drinks such as kefir is quite low. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\ 0716566 & dopt=Abstract > > All very confusing. I don't think whey is whey anymore, as in left over from cheese making. > I have no idea if kefir or yogurt has any branched chain aminos, or what it is. What I do know is that a lot of various strains of things that " corrupt " milk exist and I'd prefer to use those from a controlled process by people who have done it to make money and not get sued out of business. > I view making kefir like selecting my own mushrooms. > Just my take. > > Dean Pomerleau used kefir for a while, as I recall. Now a vegan. > > I don't use whey much anymore. Milk seems to have enough branched chain aminos. > > Regards. > > [ ] Re: Whey CR effects > > > A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know whether > those using fermented dairy products in their cron practice have > experienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seems > strongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article when > consuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt and kefir > contain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially the > latter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care for > the solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour liquid > known as " intact " whey. I would be wary of using commercially > available whey because the " other bioactive whey components " may be > lacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties of > whey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA or its > ACE-inhibitory peptides. > > For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of days of > fermentation at room temperature as this causes a very significant > seperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results in a > very reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferred > substrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the final > product). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together and > drink it. > > Regards, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 Kefir making is basically cheese making as the strained solids bear a striking resemblance in consistency and taste to cream cheese. So technically speaking the clear liquid left over qualifies as whey. The difference between kefir and cheese is the bacterial culture which is many times more complex in kefir than in either yogurt or cheese though it accomplishes the same basic thing: the transformation of milk sugars into lactic acid. Doing this yourself can be considered much more safe than picking out your own mushrooms (or drinking water)considering that the pH level of cultured milk drinks such as kefir is quite low. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\ 0716566 & dopt=Abstract > > All very confusing. I don't think whey is whey anymore, as in left over from cheese making. > I have no idea if kefir or yogurt has any branched chain aminos, or what it is. What I do know is that a lot of various strains of things that " corrupt " milk exist and I'd prefer to use those from a controlled process by people who have done it to make money and not get sued out of business. > I view making kefir like selecting my own mushrooms. > Just my take. > > Dean Pomerleau used kefir for a while, as I recall. Now a vegan. > > I don't use whey much anymore. Milk seems to have enough branched chain aminos. > > Regards. > > [ ] Re: Whey CR effects > > > A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know whether > those using fermented dairy products in their cron practice have > experienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seems > strongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article when > consuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt and kefir > contain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially the > latter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care for > the solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour liquid > known as " intact " whey. I would be wary of using commercially > available whey because the " other bioactive whey components " may be > lacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties of > whey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA or its > ACE-inhibitory peptides. > > For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of days of > fermentation at room temperature as this causes a very significant > seperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results in a > very reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferred > substrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the final > product). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together and > drink it. > > Regards, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 The question is why do it? I'm extremely careful what I eat - I've thrown out lot's of stuff that after I've made it, I had no way to TEST it for clean. Now if it were made commercially, I might try it, but home process - NO, sorry, I don't buy that. I've made yogurt and I think that's a fairly easy process, but I've also canned stuff before and SOME of the cans expanded, so out all they went. I'm not real comfortable with commercial mushrooms either. My health, simply put, is not worth the risk, for me to experiment with. CR is my experiment. And you'll find I'm very conservative with that. When I take the trouble to analyze kefir or the like, I'll find I don't have enough data to compare the Aminos, eg, with other protein sources. Or how can I be sure the stuff I make is the same amino acids, biology/organic chemistry being what it is. Some day I'll tell you about raising my own calf. Regards. [ ] Re: Whey CR effects> > > A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know whether> those using fermented dairy products in their cron practice have> experienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seems> strongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article when> consuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt and kefir> contain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially the> latter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care for> the solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour liquid> known as "intact" whey. I would be wary of using commercially> available whey because the "other bioactive whey components" may be> lacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties of> whey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA or its> ACE-inhibitory peptides.> > For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of days of> fermentation at room temperature as this causes a very significant> seperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results in a> very reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferred> substrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the final> product). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together and> drink it. > > Regards,> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 The question is why do it? I'm extremely careful what I eat - I've thrown out lot's of stuff that after I've made it, I had no way to TEST it for clean. Now if it were made commercially, I might try it, but home process - NO, sorry, I don't buy that. I've made yogurt and I think that's a fairly easy process, but I've also canned stuff before and SOME of the cans expanded, so out all they went. I'm not real comfortable with commercial mushrooms either. My health, simply put, is not worth the risk, for me to experiment with. CR is my experiment. And you'll find I'm very conservative with that. When I take the trouble to analyze kefir or the like, I'll find I don't have enough data to compare the Aminos, eg, with other protein sources. Or how can I be sure the stuff I make is the same amino acids, biology/organic chemistry being what it is. Some day I'll tell you about raising my own calf. Regards. [ ] Re: Whey CR effects> > > A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know whether> those using fermented dairy products in their cron practice have> experienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seems> strongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article when> consuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt and kefir> contain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially the> latter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care for> the solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour liquid> known as "intact" whey. I would be wary of using commercially> available whey because the "other bioactive whey components" may be> lacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties of> whey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA or its> ACE-inhibitory peptides.> > For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of days of> fermentation at room temperature as this causes a very significant> seperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results in a> very reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferred> substrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the final> product). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together and> drink it. > > Regards,> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Hi : Can kefir be made with skim milk? Rodney. > > Kefir making is basically cheese making as the strained solids bear a > striking resemblance in consistency and taste to cream cheese. So > technically speaking the clear liquid left over qualifies as whey. The > difference between kefir and cheese is the bacterial culture which is > many times more complex in kefir than in either yogurt or cheese > though it accomplishes the same basic thing: the transformation of > milk sugars into lactic acid. > > Doing this yourself can be considered much more safe than picking out > your own mushrooms (or drinking water)considering that the pH level of > cultured milk drinks such as kefir is quite low. > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=10716566 & dopt=Abstract > > > > > --- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...> wrote: > > > > All very confusing. I don't think whey is whey anymore, as in left > over from cheese making. > > I have no idea if kefir or yogurt has any branched chain aminos, or > what it is. What I do know is that a lot of various strains of things > that " corrupt " milk exist and I'd prefer to use those from a > controlled process by people who have done it to make money and not > get sued out of business. > > I view making kefir like selecting my own mushrooms. > > Just my take. > > > > Dean Pomerleau used kefir for a while, as I recall. Now a vegan. > > > > I don't use whey much anymore. Milk seems to have enough branched > chain aminos. > > > > Regards. > > > > [ ] Re: Whey CR effects > > > > > > A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know whether > > those using fermented dairy products in their cron practice have > > experienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seems > > strongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article when > > consuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt and kefir > > contain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially the > > latter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care for > > the solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour liquid > > known as " intact " whey. I would be wary of using commercially > > available whey because the " other bioactive whey components " may be > > lacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties of > > whey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA or its > > ACE-inhibitory peptides. > > > > For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of days of > > fermentation at room temperature as this causes a very significant > > seperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results in a > > very reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferred > > substrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the final > > product). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together and > > drink it. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Hi : Can kefir be made with skim milk? Rodney. > > Kefir making is basically cheese making as the strained solids bear a > striking resemblance in consistency and taste to cream cheese. So > technically speaking the clear liquid left over qualifies as whey. The > difference between kefir and cheese is the bacterial culture which is > many times more complex in kefir than in either yogurt or cheese > though it accomplishes the same basic thing: the transformation of > milk sugars into lactic acid. > > Doing this yourself can be considered much more safe than picking out > your own mushrooms (or drinking water)considering that the pH level of > cultured milk drinks such as kefir is quite low. > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=10716566 & dopt=Abstract > > > > > --- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...> wrote: > > > > All very confusing. I don't think whey is whey anymore, as in left > over from cheese making. > > I have no idea if kefir or yogurt has any branched chain aminos, or > what it is. What I do know is that a lot of various strains of things > that " corrupt " milk exist and I'd prefer to use those from a > controlled process by people who have done it to make money and not > get sued out of business. > > I view making kefir like selecting my own mushrooms. > > Just my take. > > > > Dean Pomerleau used kefir for a while, as I recall. Now a vegan. > > > > I don't use whey much anymore. Milk seems to have enough branched > chain aminos. > > > > Regards. > > > > [ ] Re: Whey CR effects > > > > > > A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know whether > > those using fermented dairy products in their cron practice have > > experienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seems > > strongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article when > > consuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt and kefir > > contain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially the > > latter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care for > > the solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour liquid > > known as " intact " whey. I would be wary of using commercially > > available whey because the " other bioactive whey components " may be > > lacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective properties of > > whey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA or its > > ACE-inhibitory peptides. > > > > For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of days of > > fermentation at room temperature as this causes a very significant > > seperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results in a > > very reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferred > > substrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the final > > product). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together and > > drink it. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Yes, I routinely make mine with 1% or 2% milk. The kefir grains don't mind. Then I blend in some strawberries and blueberries with a dash of sucralose. Refill old yogurt containers for good portion size. I clean and reuse the yogurt containers... using these same ones for years. JR Rodney wrote: > Hi : > > Can kefir be made with skim milk? > > Rodney. > > >>> All very confusing. I don't think whey is whey anymore, as in left >> over from cheese making. >>> I have no idea if kefir or yogurt has any branched chain aminos, > or >> what it is. What I do know is that a lot of various strains of > things >> that " corrupt " milk exist and I'd prefer to use those from a >> controlled process by people who have done it to make money and not >> get sued out of business. >>> I view making kefir like selecting my own mushrooms. >>> Just my take. >>> >>> Dean Pomerleau used kefir for a while, as I recall. Now a vegan. >>> >>> I don't use whey much anymore. Milk seems to have enough branched >> chain aminos. >>> Regards. >>> >>> [ ] Re: Whey CR effects >>> >>> >>> A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know > whether >>> those using fermented dairy products in their cron practice have >>> experienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seems >>> strongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article > when >>> consuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt > and kefir >>> contain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially > the >>> latter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care > for >>> the solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour > liquid >>> known as " intact " whey. I would be wary of using commercially >>> available whey because the " other bioactive whey components " > may be >>> lacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective > properties of >>> whey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA > or its >>> ACE-inhibitory peptides. >>> >>> For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of > days of >>> fermentation at room temperature as this causes a very > significant >>> seperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results > in a >>> very reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferred >>> substrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the > final >>> product). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together > and >>> drink it. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Yes, I routinely make mine with 1% or 2% milk. The kefir grains don't mind. Then I blend in some strawberries and blueberries with a dash of sucralose. Refill old yogurt containers for good portion size. I clean and reuse the yogurt containers... using these same ones for years. JR Rodney wrote: > Hi : > > Can kefir be made with skim milk? > > Rodney. > > >>> All very confusing. I don't think whey is whey anymore, as in left >> over from cheese making. >>> I have no idea if kefir or yogurt has any branched chain aminos, > or >> what it is. What I do know is that a lot of various strains of > things >> that " corrupt " milk exist and I'd prefer to use those from a >> controlled process by people who have done it to make money and not >> get sued out of business. >>> I view making kefir like selecting my own mushrooms. >>> Just my take. >>> >>> Dean Pomerleau used kefir for a while, as I recall. Now a vegan. >>> >>> I don't use whey much anymore. Milk seems to have enough branched >> chain aminos. >>> Regards. >>> >>> [ ] Re: Whey CR effects >>> >>> >>> A fascinating article,Al. It would be interesting to know > whether >>> those using fermented dairy products in their cron practice have >>> experienced much lean mass wasting as the opposite effect seems >>> strongly suggested by the authors(???) of the posted article > when >>> consuming dairy in a calorie restricted diet. I think yogurt > and kefir >>> contain the most whey being more liquid than solid (especially > the >>> latter)Both can be strained (through cloth)if one does not care > for >>> the solid part. The result is the yellowish watery mildly sour > liquid >>> known as " intact " whey. I would be wary of using commercially >>> available whey because the " other bioactive whey components " > may be >>> lacking as the the anti-obesity and muscle-protective > properties of >>> whey are accounted by more than its calcium content, its BCAA > or its >>> ACE-inhibitory peptides. >>> >>> For my part, I drink the unstrained kefir after a couple of > days of >>> fermentation at room temperature as this causes a very > significant >>> seperaration of the whey from the solids and presumably results > in a >>> very reduced lactose content (carbohydrates being the preferred >>> substrate of the fermentation process = less calories in the > final >>> product). I then stir or shake liquid and solids back together > and >>> drink it. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Far be it for me to disagree but :-) It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir is easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up. I have even reduced it to cheese as a very tasty experiment but the increased caloric density and fact that I don't eat anything that I would put cream cheese on make it less desirable as a regular practice. I prefer home grown/cooked/whatever to commercial while I agree one should bother to educate themselves a little before chowing down on wild shrooms and such. Not to change the subject but another disturbing trend may be antibiotic resistant bacteria coming from vegetables grown with fertilizer from antibiotic fed cattle. Another unintended consequence. A practice that AFAIK they have stopped recently is feeding cattle chicken house straw for the dropped food content. Pretty amazing how stuff can vector through the commercial food supply. It's not nice to fool mother nature. JR jwwright wrote: > The question is why do it? I'm extremely careful what I eat - I've > thrown out lot's of stuff that after I've made it, I had no way to TEST > it for clean. > > Now if it were made commercially, I might try it, but home process - NO, > sorry, I don't buy that. > I've made yogurt and I think that's a fairly easy process, but I've also > canned stuff before and SOME of the cans expanded, so out all they went. > > I'm not real comfortable with commercial mushrooms either. > > My health, simply put, is not worth the risk, for me to experiment with. > CR is my experiment. > And you'll find I'm very conservative with that. > > When I take the trouble to analyze kefir or the like, I'll find I don't > have enough data to compare the Aminos, eg, with other protein sources. > Or how can I be sure the stuff I make is the same amino acids, > biology/organic chemistry being what it is. > > Some day I'll tell you about raising my own calf. > > Regards. > > > * [ ] Re: Whey CR effects > > Kefir making is basically cheese making as the strained solids bear a > striking resemblance in consistency and taste to cream cheese. So > technically speaking the clear liquid left over qualifies as whey. The > difference between kefir and cheese is the bacterial culture which is > many times more complex in kefir than in either yogurt or cheese > though it accomplishes the same basic thing: the transformation of > milk sugars into lactic acid. > > Doing this yourself can be considered much more safe than picking out > your own mushrooms (or drinking water)considering that the pH level of > cultured milk drinks such as kefir is quite low. > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\ 0716566 & dopt=Abstract > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=\ 10716566 & dopt=Abstract> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Far be it for me to disagree but :-) It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir is easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up. I have even reduced it to cheese as a very tasty experiment but the increased caloric density and fact that I don't eat anything that I would put cream cheese on make it less desirable as a regular practice. I prefer home grown/cooked/whatever to commercial while I agree one should bother to educate themselves a little before chowing down on wild shrooms and such. Not to change the subject but another disturbing trend may be antibiotic resistant bacteria coming from vegetables grown with fertilizer from antibiotic fed cattle. Another unintended consequence. A practice that AFAIK they have stopped recently is feeding cattle chicken house straw for the dropped food content. Pretty amazing how stuff can vector through the commercial food supply. It's not nice to fool mother nature. JR jwwright wrote: > The question is why do it? I'm extremely careful what I eat - I've > thrown out lot's of stuff that after I've made it, I had no way to TEST > it for clean. > > Now if it were made commercially, I might try it, but home process - NO, > sorry, I don't buy that. > I've made yogurt and I think that's a fairly easy process, but I've also > canned stuff before and SOME of the cans expanded, so out all they went. > > I'm not real comfortable with commercial mushrooms either. > > My health, simply put, is not worth the risk, for me to experiment with. > CR is my experiment. > And you'll find I'm very conservative with that. > > When I take the trouble to analyze kefir or the like, I'll find I don't > have enough data to compare the Aminos, eg, with other protein sources. > Or how can I be sure the stuff I make is the same amino acids, > biology/organic chemistry being what it is. > > Some day I'll tell you about raising my own calf. > > Regards. > > > * [ ] Re: Whey CR effects > > Kefir making is basically cheese making as the strained solids bear a > striking resemblance in consistency and taste to cream cheese. So > technically speaking the clear liquid left over qualifies as whey. The > difference between kefir and cheese is the bacterial culture which is > many times more complex in kefir than in either yogurt or cheese > though it accomplishes the same basic thing: the transformation of > milk sugars into lactic acid. > > Doing this yourself can be considered much more safe than picking out > your own mushrooms (or drinking water)considering that the pH level of > cultured milk drinks such as kefir is quite low. > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\ 0716566 & dopt=Abstract > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=\ 10716566 & dopt=Abstract> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 So why do it? Re: [ ] Re: Whey CR effects Far be it for me to disagree but :-)It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir iseasy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up.I have even reduced it to cheese as a very tasty experiment but theincreased caloric density and fact that I don't eat anything that Iwould put cream cheese on make it less desirable as a regular practice.I prefer home grown/cooked/whatever to commercial while I agree one should bother to educate themselves a little before chowing down onwild shrooms and such.Not to change the subject but another disturbing trend may be antibiotic resistant bacteria coming from vegetables grown with fertilizer from antibiotic fed cattle. Another unintended consequence. A practice thatAFAIK they have stopped recently is feeding cattle chicken house straw for the dropped food content. Pretty amazing how stuff can vector through the commercial food supply.It's not nice to fool mother nature.JRjwwright wrote:> The question is why do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 So why do it? Re: [ ] Re: Whey CR effects Far be it for me to disagree but :-)It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir iseasy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up.I have even reduced it to cheese as a very tasty experiment but theincreased caloric density and fact that I don't eat anything that Iwould put cream cheese on make it less desirable as a regular practice.I prefer home grown/cooked/whatever to commercial while I agree one should bother to educate themselves a little before chowing down onwild shrooms and such.Not to change the subject but another disturbing trend may be antibiotic resistant bacteria coming from vegetables grown with fertilizer from antibiotic fed cattle. Another unintended consequence. A practice thatAFAIK they have stopped recently is feeding cattle chicken house straw for the dropped food content. Pretty amazing how stuff can vector through the commercial food supply.It's not nice to fool mother nature.JRjwwright wrote:> The question is why do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Which... ? Make sprouts? (good healthy rabbit food); make kefir? (calcium and IMO healthier nutrient profile than unfermented milk); feed chicken crap to cows? (capture dropped food-save money); feed antibiotics to cattle (grow bigger, healthier (?) animals to make more profit). JR jwwright wrote: > So why do it? > > > * Re: [ ] Re: Whey CR effects > > Far be it for me to disagree but :-) > > It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought > sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir is > easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up. > > I have even reduced it to cheese as a very tasty experiment but the > increased caloric density and fact that I don't eat anything that I > would put cream cheese on make it less desirable as a regular practice. > > I prefer home grown/cooked/whatever to commercial while I agree one > should bother to educate themselves a little before chowing down on > wild shrooms and such. > > Not to change the subject but another disturbing trend may be > antibiotic > resistant bacteria coming from vegetables grown with fertilizer from > antibiotic fed cattle. Another unintended consequence. A practice that > AFAIK they have stopped recently is feeding cattle chicken house straw > for the dropped food content. Pretty amazing how stuff can vector > through the commercial food supply. > > It's not nice to fool mother nature. > > JR > > jwwright wrote: > > The question is why do it? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Which... ? Make sprouts? (good healthy rabbit food); make kefir? (calcium and IMO healthier nutrient profile than unfermented milk); feed chicken crap to cows? (capture dropped food-save money); feed antibiotics to cattle (grow bigger, healthier (?) animals to make more profit). JR jwwright wrote: > So why do it? > > > * Re: [ ] Re: Whey CR effects > > Far be it for me to disagree but :-) > > It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought > sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir is > easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up. > > I have even reduced it to cheese as a very tasty experiment but the > increased caloric density and fact that I don't eat anything that I > would put cream cheese on make it less desirable as a regular practice. > > I prefer home grown/cooked/whatever to commercial while I agree one > should bother to educate themselves a little before chowing down on > wild shrooms and such. > > Not to change the subject but another disturbing trend may be > antibiotic > resistant bacteria coming from vegetables grown with fertilizer from > antibiotic fed cattle. Another unintended consequence. A practice that > AFAIK they have stopped recently is feeding cattle chicken house straw > for the dropped food content. Pretty amazing how stuff can vector > through the commercial food supply. > > It's not nice to fool mother nature. > > JR > > jwwright wrote: > > The question is why do it? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 We were talking kefir. Does it have some miraculous value, like it make things hard or what? Any evidence of longer life? Regards. * Re: [ ] Re: Whey CR effects> > Far be it for me to disagree but :-)> > It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought> sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir is> easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up.> > I have even reduced it to cheese as a very tasty experiment but the> increased caloric density and fact that I don't eat anything that I> would put cream cheese on make it less desirable as a regular practice.> > I prefer home grown/cooked/whatever to commercial while I agree one> should bother to educate themselves a little before chowing down on> wild shrooms and such.> > Not to change the subject but another disturbing trend may be> antibiotic> resistant bacteria coming from vegetables grown with fertilizer from> antibiotic fed cattle. Another unintended consequence. A practice that> AFAIK they have stopped recently is feeding cattle chicken house straw> for the dropped food content. Pretty amazing how stuff can vector> through the commercial food supply.> > It's not nice to fool mother nature.> > JR> > jwwright wrote:> > The question is why do it? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 We were talking kefir. Does it have some miraculous value, like it make things hard or what? Any evidence of longer life? Regards. * Re: [ ] Re: Whey CR effects> > Far be it for me to disagree but :-)> > It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought> sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir is> easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up.> > I have even reduced it to cheese as a very tasty experiment but the> increased caloric density and fact that I don't eat anything that I> would put cream cheese on make it less desirable as a regular practice.> > I prefer home grown/cooked/whatever to commercial while I agree one> should bother to educate themselves a little before chowing down on> wild shrooms and such.> > Not to change the subject but another disturbing trend may be> antibiotic> resistant bacteria coming from vegetables grown with fertilizer from> antibiotic fed cattle. Another unintended consequence. A practice that> AFAIK they have stopped recently is feeding cattle chicken house straw> for the dropped food content. Pretty amazing how stuff can vector> through the commercial food supply.> > It's not nice to fool mother nature.> > JR> > jwwright wrote:> > The question is why do it? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 None of my food choices are based on miraculous expectations...and AFAIK doesn't make anything hard or soft. I am not aware of any " real " foods that extend life, I believe there is some ancient mythology to that effect (nectar of the gods?). As I already stated Kefir has calcium and IMO a healthier nutrient profile than milk. I don't pursue a perfect diet as I don't know how to, I do attempt to make small incremental improvements over time. If I were make severe dietary changes based on every piece of popular " research " I would make some less than good choices I would only end up reversing later. This ultimately comes down to a personal choice. I take a more conservative approach regarding evaluating dietary advice. YMMV Be well and Merry Christmas to all. JR jwwright wrote: > We were talking kefir. > Does it have some miraculous value, like it make things hard or what? > Any evidence of longer life? > > Regards. > > * Re: [ ] Re: Whey CR effects > > > > Far be it for me to disagree but :-) > > > > It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with > store bought > > sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making > Kefir is > > easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up. > > > > I have even reduced it to cheese as a very tasty experiment > but the > > increased caloric density and fact that I don't eat anything > that I > > would put cream cheese on make it less desirable as a regular > practice. > > > > I prefer home grown/cooked/whatever to commercial while I > agree one > > should bother to educate themselves a little before chowing > down on > > wild shrooms and such. > > > > Not to change the subject but another disturbing trend may be > > antibiotic > > resistant bacteria coming from vegetables grown with > fertilizer from > > antibiotic fed cattle. Another unintended consequence. A > practice that > > AFAIK they have stopped recently is feeding cattle chicken > house straw > > for the dropped food content. Pretty amazing how stuff can vector > > through the commercial food supply. > > > > It's not nice to fool mother nature. > > > > JR > > > > jwwright wrote: > > > The question is why do it? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 None of my food choices are based on miraculous expectations...and AFAIK doesn't make anything hard or soft. I am not aware of any " real " foods that extend life, I believe there is some ancient mythology to that effect (nectar of the gods?). As I already stated Kefir has calcium and IMO a healthier nutrient profile than milk. I don't pursue a perfect diet as I don't know how to, I do attempt to make small incremental improvements over time. If I were make severe dietary changes based on every piece of popular " research " I would make some less than good choices I would only end up reversing later. This ultimately comes down to a personal choice. I take a more conservative approach regarding evaluating dietary advice. YMMV Be well and Merry Christmas to all. JR jwwright wrote: > We were talking kefir. > Does it have some miraculous value, like it make things hard or what? > Any evidence of longer life? > > Regards. > > * Re: [ ] Re: Whey CR effects > > > > Far be it for me to disagree but :-) > > > > It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with > store bought > > sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making > Kefir is > > easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up. > > > > I have even reduced it to cheese as a very tasty experiment > but the > > increased caloric density and fact that I don't eat anything > that I > > would put cream cheese on make it less desirable as a regular > practice. > > > > I prefer home grown/cooked/whatever to commercial while I > agree one > > should bother to educate themselves a little before chowing > down on > > wild shrooms and such. > > > > Not to change the subject but another disturbing trend may be > > antibiotic > > resistant bacteria coming from vegetables grown with > fertilizer from > > antibiotic fed cattle. Another unintended consequence. A > practice that > > AFAIK they have stopped recently is feeding cattle chicken > house straw > > for the dropped food content. Pretty amazing how stuff can vector > > through the commercial food supply. > > > > It's not nice to fool mother nature. > > > > JR > > > > jwwright wrote: > > > The question is why do it? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 While you may remember when I tried it last year. I screwed it up and I gave up. on 12/9/2005 9:20 AM, at crjohnr@... wrote: It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir is easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 While you may remember when I tried it last year. I screwed it up and I gave up. on 12/9/2005 9:20 AM, at crjohnr@... wrote: It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir is easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Sorry... " I " find it pretty hard to screw up. I recall that I threw away my first batch because I thought it looked like it had gone bad,,, but that's pretty much what Kefir is, only hopefully preferentially dominated by the Kefir strain of whatever microbes are at work. There are sundry kefir support websites that would surely be more helpful than me and I have posted links in the past to where I got my floater. All I do is buy 1/2 gallon of 1% milk... pour into a seal able plastic container, throw in the floater which holds starter Kefir grains, and let it sit on the counter at room temperature until done (usually overnight). In between making batches I keep the starter/floater in a small container of milk in refrigerator. Once every several months I remove some of the extra kefir grains from the floater as it gets clogged up, but this is about as much care as it ever needs. I blend in frozen berries and dash of sucralose,, 2 qts make 12-13 servings. Which I keep in refrigerator. Over time the curd and whey will separate out. I like to eat the curd with a spoon and drink the whey but some Kefir drinkers just shake it up and drink whole thing as a liquid. Kefir is probably more like a thick shake than a pudding, like yogurt,, but who knows what additives they may throw into yogurt to make a consistent product ? JR Francesca Skelton wrote: > While you may remember when I tried it last year. I screwed it up > and I gave up. > > > on 12/9/2005 9:20 AM, at crjohnr@... wrote: > > It is pretty common to hear of contamination problems with store bought > sprouts while home grown sprouts are generally safer. Making Kefir is > easy and AFAIK pretty difficult to screw up. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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