Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Hi Tony: This may be an important issue. But what is the REASON for the weight loss, what kind of weight is lost, and what are the health problems that are precipitated if slim people undergo surgery? People in hospital, slim or not, are usually on IVs, which should be providing enough energy and other critical nutrients if they cannot eat. There are other people who are slim - not just us. But we never see the cause of death listed as: " was too slim on entry to emergency department " . So, what evidence do we have that this really a serious problem? (I do not have a pre-conceived view on this. But from personal experience, twice, I acknowledge that significant surgery does seem to precipitate a sizeable, near instantaneous, loss of weight. Where does it disappear to?). Rodney. > > A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of a > one-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body does > not have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds " felt uncomfortably close to > the Red Line " , which I imagine is when they call the hearse. The > recuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed by > the antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use of > needles for drug administration. > > The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 pounds > may take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospital > stay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. > > By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless another > member posts about it, we will never know. > > Tony > > === > * Mon, 28 Nov 2005 > Subject: CR and Acute Catabolism > crsociety@L... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Hi Tony: This may be an important issue. But what is the REASON for the weight loss, what kind of weight is lost, and what are the health problems that are precipitated if slim people undergo surgery? People in hospital, slim or not, are usually on IVs, which should be providing enough energy and other critical nutrients if they cannot eat. There are other people who are slim - not just us. But we never see the cause of death listed as: " was too slim on entry to emergency department " . So, what evidence do we have that this really a serious problem? (I do not have a pre-conceived view on this. But from personal experience, twice, I acknowledge that significant surgery does seem to precipitate a sizeable, near instantaneous, loss of weight. Where does it disappear to?). Rodney. > > A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of a > one-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body does > not have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds " felt uncomfortably close to > the Red Line " , which I imagine is when they call the hearse. The > recuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed by > the antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use of > needles for drug administration. > > The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 pounds > may take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospital > stay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. > > By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless another > member posts about it, we will never know. > > Tony > > === > * Mon, 28 Nov 2005 > Subject: CR and Acute Catabolism > crsociety@L... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 The last 3 times I've been hospitalized, I've come home weighing more than when I left, presumably from all the IV fluids. I weighed nearly 15 lbs more after a 3 day stay for a mastectomy. It took more a week to lose it. Could the instantaneous weight loss be due to dehydration? Perhaps these folks weren't getting enough IV fluids. My BMI is under 20. Diane > > > > A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of a > > one-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body > does > > not have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds " felt uncomfortably close to > > the Red Line " , which I imagine is when they call the hearse. The > > recuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed by > > the antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use of > > needles for drug administration. > > > > The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 > pounds > > may take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospital > > stay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. > > > > By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless > another > > member posts about it, we will never know. > > > > Tony > > > > === > > * Mon, 28 Nov 2005 > > Subject: CR and Acute Catabolism > > crsociety@L... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 The last 3 times I've been hospitalized, I've come home weighing more than when I left, presumably from all the IV fluids. I weighed nearly 15 lbs more after a 3 day stay for a mastectomy. It took more a week to lose it. Could the instantaneous weight loss be due to dehydration? Perhaps these folks weren't getting enough IV fluids. My BMI is under 20. Diane > > > > A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of a > > one-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body > does > > not have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds " felt uncomfortably close to > > the Red Line " , which I imagine is when they call the hearse. The > > recuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed by > > the antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use of > > needles for drug administration. > > > > The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 > pounds > > may take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospital > > stay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. > > > > By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless > another > > member posts about it, we will never know. > > > > Tony > > > > === > > * Mon, 28 Nov 2005 > > Subject: CR and Acute Catabolism > > crsociety@L... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 One clue is the groups member lists for hard bouncing. I have had several in another group and of course, I'm not sure if they caved, but it's a clue - the only clue I'm aware of. Whatever happened to Joe Record, eg? Regards. [ ] The Red Line A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of aone-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body doesnot have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds "felt uncomfortably close tothe Red Line", which I imagine is when they call the hearse. Therecuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed bythe antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use ofneedles for drug administration.The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 poundsmay take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospitalstay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless anothermember posts about it, we will never know.Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 One clue is the groups member lists for hard bouncing. I have had several in another group and of course, I'm not sure if they caved, but it's a clue - the only clue I'm aware of. Whatever happened to Joe Record, eg? Regards. [ ] The Red Line A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of aone-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body doesnot have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds "felt uncomfortably close tothe Red Line", which I imagine is when they call the hearse. Therecuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed bythe antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use ofneedles for drug administration.The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 poundsmay take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospitalstay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless anothermember posts about it, we will never know.Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Hi folks: Just for reference I calculated how much effect a fifteen pound hospitalization weight loss would have on my BMI. The answer is it would drop it by 2.1 BMI units. So if I had as an objective that I would not wish my BMI to drop below 18 in a hypothetical hospitalization episode, then a BMI for normal circumstances of 20.1 would permit such a safety margin. I am NOT saying there is anything special about a BMI of 18. It is just taken out of the air. Nor am I saying that I have evidence that going below 18 would be dangerous. But it does provide some idea of the magnitudes of what we are talking about here. Rodney. --- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...> wrote: > > One clue is the groups member lists for hard bouncing. I have had several in another group and of course, I'm not sure if they caved, but it's a clue - the only clue I'm aware of. > > Whatever happened to Joe Record, eg? > > Regards. > [ ] The Red Line > > > A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of a > one-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body does > not have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds " felt uncomfortably close to > the Red Line " , which I imagine is when they call the hearse. The > recuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed by > the antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use of > needles for drug administration. > > The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 pounds > may take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospital > stay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. > > By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless another > member posts about it, we will never know. > > Tony > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Hi folks: Just for reference I calculated how much effect a fifteen pound hospitalization weight loss would have on my BMI. The answer is it would drop it by 2.1 BMI units. So if I had as an objective that I would not wish my BMI to drop below 18 in a hypothetical hospitalization episode, then a BMI for normal circumstances of 20.1 would permit such a safety margin. I am NOT saying there is anything special about a BMI of 18. It is just taken out of the air. Nor am I saying that I have evidence that going below 18 would be dangerous. But it does provide some idea of the magnitudes of what we are talking about here. Rodney. --- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...> wrote: > > One clue is the groups member lists for hard bouncing. I have had several in another group and of course, I'm not sure if they caved, but it's a clue - the only clue I'm aware of. > > Whatever happened to Joe Record, eg? > > Regards. > [ ] The Red Line > > > A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of a > one-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body does > not have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds " felt uncomfortably close to > the Red Line " , which I imagine is when they call the hearse. The > recuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed by > the antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use of > needles for drug administration. > > The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 pounds > may take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospital > stay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. > > By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless another > member posts about it, we will never know. > > Tony > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 We're trying to guess what the medicals will do evaluating our health. I kinda think their standard prep is an IV in an emergency and for op prep, since they do that even for a colonoscopy. The worry seems to be for those extremely thin - that's why they have IV's. A weight loss might occur after an operation, especially involving the intestines. I suspect that person will still lose weight at home. That's a medical issue. I don't see establishing the gut bacteria as an issue for getting nutrients, rather a diarrhea issue. We're always talking weight as though it were the primary thing in CR. I think eating less is CR. And if I fit into a 30 yo suit fine, but it's the calories and I see no reason for anyone to home in on a BMI of 20 if they have been overweight. 5'9" at 145# is 21.4 and I'm sure I never want to get there again. 165 is plenty low for my frame - that's 24.4. If someone feels they just have to get to 20, maybe there's a risk before they go into the hospital. I think that's the main issue. For someone who is 6 ft, 145#, has always been at adulthood, is naturally thin - that's a diff thing. Regards. [ ] The Red Line> > > A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of a> one-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body does> not have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds "felt uncomfortably close to> the Red Line", which I imagine is when they call the hearse. The> recuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed by> the antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use of> needles for drug administration.> > The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 pounds> may take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospital> stay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. > > By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless another> member posts about it, we will never know.> > Tony> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 We're trying to guess what the medicals will do evaluating our health. I kinda think their standard prep is an IV in an emergency and for op prep, since they do that even for a colonoscopy. The worry seems to be for those extremely thin - that's why they have IV's. A weight loss might occur after an operation, especially involving the intestines. I suspect that person will still lose weight at home. That's a medical issue. I don't see establishing the gut bacteria as an issue for getting nutrients, rather a diarrhea issue. We're always talking weight as though it were the primary thing in CR. I think eating less is CR. And if I fit into a 30 yo suit fine, but it's the calories and I see no reason for anyone to home in on a BMI of 20 if they have been overweight. 5'9" at 145# is 21.4 and I'm sure I never want to get there again. 165 is plenty low for my frame - that's 24.4. If someone feels they just have to get to 20, maybe there's a risk before they go into the hospital. I think that's the main issue. For someone who is 6 ft, 145#, has always been at adulthood, is naturally thin - that's a diff thing. Regards. [ ] The Red Line> > > A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of a> one-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body does> not have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds "felt uncomfortably close to> the Red Line", which I imagine is when they call the hearse. The> recuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed by> the antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use of> needles for drug administration.> > The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 pounds> may take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospital> stay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. > > By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless another> member posts about it, we will never know.> > Tony> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I like body weight as a metric that at least " is what it is " by definition. There is still reason to dig a little deeper when looking at significant short term swings, such as the topic of this thread. As individuals restrict down to lower total body weights for a given skeletal frame, the relatively fixed components that make up that total can become more significant. To wit the amount of undigested or partially processed food in our system clearly registers on the scale as part of our total body weight while in fact several pounds of that is in some uncommitted state, neither waste nor fully integrated into our body. Dramatic changes in diet, or shocks like an anti-biotic flush could cause dramatic shifts in that area. This certainly doesn't explain changes on the order of 10+ lbs but can be part of that total. A second distortion to stable body weight is hydration level. Presumably under hospital care this would be prevented from drifting to some unsafe level, but this could explain a few pounds one way or the other. Thirdly bed rest of significant duration may atrophy major muscles which could be consumed for protein/energy despite IV feeding (glucose?) and/or a presumably balanced hospital diet especially if our body is stressed by infection, injury, or surgery. This is all hypothetical and I offer no data to support my view but I suggest back of the envelope BMI guidance is no more precise. If such analysis scares folks away from allowing themselves to become too thin I don't disagree with the result but would be dishonest to support it as a credible basis for that decision. While moderation may appear inconsistent with CR even the most casual review of modern culture and health can't ignore the penalty of overeating, and benefits of eating less. The only open question is how much less to eat. Until we learn more, moderation seems prudent. Be well. JR Rodney wrote: > Hi folks: > > Just for reference I calculated how much effect a fifteen pound > hospitalization weight loss would have on my BMI. The answer is it > would drop it by 2.1 BMI units. > > So if I had as an objective that I would not wish my BMI to drop > below 18 in a hypothetical hospitalization episode, then a BMI for > normal circumstances of 20.1 would permit such a safety margin. > > I am NOT saying there is anything special about a BMI of 18. It is > just taken out of the air. Nor am I saying that I have evidence that > going below 18 would be dangerous. But it does provide some idea of > the magnitudes of what we are talking about here. > > Rodney. > > >> One clue is the groups member lists for hard bouncing. I have had > several in another group and of course, I'm not sure if they caved, > but it's a clue - the only clue I'm aware of. >> Whatever happened to Joe Record, eg? >> >> Regards. >> [ ] The Red Line >> >> >> A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of a >> one-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body > does >> not have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds " felt uncomfortably close > to >> the Red Line " , which I imagine is when they call the hearse. The >> recuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed > by >> the antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use > of >> needles for drug administration. >> >> The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 > pounds >> may take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospital >> stay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. >> >> By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless > another >> member posts about it, we will never know. >> >> Tony >> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I like body weight as a metric that at least " is what it is " by definition. There is still reason to dig a little deeper when looking at significant short term swings, such as the topic of this thread. As individuals restrict down to lower total body weights for a given skeletal frame, the relatively fixed components that make up that total can become more significant. To wit the amount of undigested or partially processed food in our system clearly registers on the scale as part of our total body weight while in fact several pounds of that is in some uncommitted state, neither waste nor fully integrated into our body. Dramatic changes in diet, or shocks like an anti-biotic flush could cause dramatic shifts in that area. This certainly doesn't explain changes on the order of 10+ lbs but can be part of that total. A second distortion to stable body weight is hydration level. Presumably under hospital care this would be prevented from drifting to some unsafe level, but this could explain a few pounds one way or the other. Thirdly bed rest of significant duration may atrophy major muscles which could be consumed for protein/energy despite IV feeding (glucose?) and/or a presumably balanced hospital diet especially if our body is stressed by infection, injury, or surgery. This is all hypothetical and I offer no data to support my view but I suggest back of the envelope BMI guidance is no more precise. If such analysis scares folks away from allowing themselves to become too thin I don't disagree with the result but would be dishonest to support it as a credible basis for that decision. While moderation may appear inconsistent with CR even the most casual review of modern culture and health can't ignore the penalty of overeating, and benefits of eating less. The only open question is how much less to eat. Until we learn more, moderation seems prudent. Be well. JR Rodney wrote: > Hi folks: > > Just for reference I calculated how much effect a fifteen pound > hospitalization weight loss would have on my BMI. The answer is it > would drop it by 2.1 BMI units. > > So if I had as an objective that I would not wish my BMI to drop > below 18 in a hypothetical hospitalization episode, then a BMI for > normal circumstances of 20.1 would permit such a safety margin. > > I am NOT saying there is anything special about a BMI of 18. It is > just taken out of the air. Nor am I saying that I have evidence that > going below 18 would be dangerous. But it does provide some idea of > the magnitudes of what we are talking about here. > > Rodney. > > >> One clue is the groups member lists for hard bouncing. I have had > several in another group and of course, I'm not sure if they caved, > but it's a clue - the only clue I'm aware of. >> Whatever happened to Joe Record, eg? >> >> Regards. >> [ ] The Red Line >> >> >> A fellow CRONie recently* reported the stress on the body of a >> one-week hospital stay for an appendectomy. Since the CRed body > does >> not have much fat, a loss of 10 pounds " felt uncomfortably close > to >> the Red Line " , which I imagine is when they call the hearse. The >> recuperation stage included re-populating the gut bacteria killed > by >> the antibiotics and dealing with trauma from the incompetent use > of >> needles for drug administration. >> >> The lesson here is that if your BMI is 20 or less, a loss of 10 > pounds >> may take you below the normal BMI range during a one-week hospital >> stay. A longer stay may send you into the great beyond. >> >> By the way, how do we know when a fellow CRONie dies? Unless > another >> member posts about it, we will never know. >> >> Tony >> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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