Re: Re: Palm oil 'reasonable' replacement for trans fats, say experts

[Guest guest]

It seems to me that most of the argument is actually misguided for

anyone following a " CR-ON " program

What CR-ON foods are there that people regularly consume in any amount

that would have hydrogenated oils that need to be " replaced " ?

Hopefully, we realize that there arent this super foods, good or bad,

that will either make or break a diet, but that it is the whole picture

that matters, when following CRON

And, that the only reason this is a controversy is for the food industy

and the manufacturers so they can continue to sell more of the junk food

that americans already consume too much of.

For anyone following a typical american diet, they would need to do a

lot more than just substitute coconut oil for hydroeganted oil to lower

their risk of CVD.

What this really is, is another distraction that they will use to get

people to aruge over for the next few years, all the time missing the

boat on the real issues on why americans are so obese and sick.

Oh well

Jeff

[Guest guest]

It seems to me that most of the argument is actually misguided for

anyone following a " CR-ON " program

What CR-ON foods are there that people regularly consume in any amount

that would have hydrogenated oils that need to be " replaced " ?

Hopefully, we realize that there arent this super foods, good or bad,

that will either make or break a diet, but that it is the whole picture

that matters, when following CRON

And, that the only reason this is a controversy is for the food industy

and the manufacturers so they can continue to sell more of the junk food

that americans already consume too much of.

For anyone following a typical american diet, they would need to do a

lot more than just substitute coconut oil for hydroeganted oil to lower

their risk of CVD.

What this really is, is another distraction that they will use to get

people to aruge over for the next few years, all the time missing the

boat on the real issues on why americans are so obese and sick.

Oh well

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Jeff Novick wrote:

> It seems to me that most of the argument is actually misguided for

> anyone following a " CR-ON " program

>

> What CR-ON foods are there that people regularly consume in any amount

> that would have hydrogenated oils that need to be " replaced " ?

>

> Hopefully, we realize that there arent this super foods, good or bad,

> that will either make or break a diet, but that it is the whole picture

> that matters, when following CRON

>

> And, that the only reason this is a controversy is for the food industy

> and the manufacturers so they can continue to sell more of the junk food

> that americans already consume too much of.

>

> For anyone following a typical american diet, they would need to do a

> lot more than just substitute coconut oil for hydroeganted oil to lower

> their risk of CVD.

>

> What this really is, is another distraction that they will use to get

> people to aruge over for the next few years, all the time missing the

> boat on the real issues on why americans are so obese and sick.

>

> Oh well

> Jeff

>

>

>

Well said IMO this comes down to attempting to influence the dietary

patterns of the general population. The food industry is very responsive

to labeling laws as they are aware of how they influence marginal

purchases. Since few of our obese are truly hungry much of their

differential food purchases can be influenced by subtle health

inferences (i.e. they may still buy ice cream but will often buy fat

free, or sugar free, or some other silly concoction thinking it's " less

unhealthy " ).

Arguing against palm oil at this point may only be somewhat effective.

The industry is pedaling as fast as they can to get " less bad "

alternatives in adequate quantity to keep their gravy trains rolling. I

doubt they will stop making any snack food completely just because of a

labeling requirements, but I do anticipate competitive sales

consequences from appearing less healthy than other snack makers.

So it's a little like that joke about two hunter's being chased by a

bear. The one stops to put on his running shoes. When advised that he

can't outrun the bear he comments that he only has to outrun the other

hunter. The snack food makers only need to appear " less unhealthy " than

the other snack makers.

As less unhealthy alternatives become available in adequate quantity,

and labeling laws keep visibility of these factors high, the crapo snack

food makers will adopt them to defend market share. What difference does

this make to us..? Perhaps some if they can reduce the out of control

runaway lifestyle induced health problems that will surely burden our

public health resources.

JR

[Guest guest]

Jeff Novick wrote:

> It seems to me that most of the argument is actually misguided for

> anyone following a " CR-ON " program

>

> What CR-ON foods are there that people regularly consume in any amount

> that would have hydrogenated oils that need to be " replaced " ?

>

> Hopefully, we realize that there arent this super foods, good or bad,

> that will either make or break a diet, but that it is the whole picture

> that matters, when following CRON

>

> And, that the only reason this is a controversy is for the food industy

> and the manufacturers so they can continue to sell more of the junk food

> that americans already consume too much of.

>

> For anyone following a typical american diet, they would need to do a

> lot more than just substitute coconut oil for hydroeganted oil to lower

> their risk of CVD.

>

> What this really is, is another distraction that they will use to get

> people to aruge over for the next few years, all the time missing the

> boat on the real issues on why americans are so obese and sick.

>

> Oh well

> Jeff

>

>

>

Well said IMO this comes down to attempting to influence the dietary

patterns of the general population. The food industry is very responsive

to labeling laws as they are aware of how they influence marginal

purchases. Since few of our obese are truly hungry much of their

differential food purchases can be influenced by subtle health

inferences (i.e. they may still buy ice cream but will often buy fat

free, or sugar free, or some other silly concoction thinking it's " less

unhealthy " ).

Arguing against palm oil at this point may only be somewhat effective.

The industry is pedaling as fast as they can to get " less bad "

alternatives in adequate quantity to keep their gravy trains rolling. I

doubt they will stop making any snack food completely just because of a

labeling requirements, but I do anticipate competitive sales

consequences from appearing less healthy than other snack makers.

So it's a little like that joke about two hunter's being chased by a

bear. The one stops to put on his running shoes. When advised that he

can't outrun the bear he comments that he only has to outrun the other

hunter. The snack food makers only need to appear " less unhealthy " than

the other snack makers.

As less unhealthy alternatives become available in adequate quantity,

and labeling laws keep visibility of these factors high, the crapo snack

food makers will adopt them to defend market share. What difference does

this make to us..? Perhaps some if they can reduce the out of control

runaway lifestyle induced health problems that will surely burden our

public health resources.

JR

[Guest guest]

I think if you look at the fatty acid breakdown you'll find there are diffs in palm oil, palm kernel oil and coconut oil. (oddly)

I don't care much because like Mike, I don't have high chole, and I don't eat a lot of prepared foods, unless me or my wife prepares them.

The simple fact is that they will have to substitute something and unless the gurus can suggest something that doesn't spoil......?

Come up with a solution. There are billions of dollars sold of stuff that contains hydrogenated fats, and a lot of that is mothers apple pie. I doubt you will substitute flour tortillas for biscuits, cookies, pies.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Palm oil ‘reasonable’ replacement for trans fats, say experts

Maybe someone will be kind enough to enlighten me but I still don'tknow why palm oil and coconut oil were ever included in the samecatergory (and presumably for the same reasons) as butter or tallow,the classical, much descried so-called "artery cloggers": they containzero cholesterol. It has the lowest melting point of all saturatedfats. If you place a small quantity on your fingers for say 30seconds, it will melt faster than refrigerated butter. How could thissubstance, having found its way in human plasma, possibly harden andaccumulate on arterial walls? How would a fat that is so saturatedever oxidize fast enough to the point of creating arterial cell walldammage in the first place? Of course this might be the very qualitythat allow tropical oils to be heated over and over again withoutdammaging them (unlike other vegetable oils: remember that widelycirculated study a few months ago?), making them, I suppose, veryattractive to fast food restauration. > > > Palm oil is a prime candidate to replace transfats. Read your > labels > > > carefully...> > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/anzxa> > > > > > Mike> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I think if you look at the fatty acid breakdown you'll find there are diffs in palm oil, palm kernel oil and coconut oil. (oddly)

I don't care much because like Mike, I don't have high chole, and I don't eat a lot of prepared foods, unless me or my wife prepares them.

The simple fact is that they will have to substitute something and unless the gurus can suggest something that doesn't spoil......?

Come up with a solution. There are billions of dollars sold of stuff that contains hydrogenated fats, and a lot of that is mothers apple pie. I doubt you will substitute flour tortillas for biscuits, cookies, pies.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Palm oil ‘reasonable’ replacement for trans fats, say experts

Maybe someone will be kind enough to enlighten me but I still don'tknow why palm oil and coconut oil were ever included in the samecatergory (and presumably for the same reasons) as butter or tallow,the classical, much descried so-called "artery cloggers": they containzero cholesterol. It has the lowest melting point of all saturatedfats. If you place a small quantity on your fingers for say 30seconds, it will melt faster than refrigerated butter. How could thissubstance, having found its way in human plasma, possibly harden andaccumulate on arterial walls? How would a fat that is so saturatedever oxidize fast enough to the point of creating arterial cell walldammage in the first place? Of course this might be the very qualitythat allow tropical oils to be heated over and over again withoutdammaging them (unlike other vegetable oils: remember that widelycirculated study a few months ago?), making them, I suppose, veryattractive to fast food restauration. > > > Palm oil is a prime candidate to replace transfats. Read your > labels > > > carefully...> > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/anzxa> > > > > > Mike> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

No argument.

Looking at the FA profiles, coconut oil has more 16:0, while palm oil and palm kernel oil have more 10:0, 12:0, and 14:0. Coconut oil has more 18:1, 18:2.

Just guessing that coconut is less stable?

Regards.

[ ] Re: Palm oil 'reasonable' replacement for trans fats, say experts

Hi :I just lost without a trace a long reply to this post of yours.I do not have the patience to re-write it so here is the short version:I would need a TON of much better evidence than this before I would touch coconut oil with a ten foot pole.We are all free agents here, and can all make our own choices. My mind is made up until we see a lot more evidence than this.Rodney.> >> > >>Palm oil is a prime candidate to replace transfats. Read your labels> > carefully...> > > > I just wrote this on Palm Oil..> > > > The Oiling Of America: Bye Bye Trans Fat, Hello Palm Oil!> > > > Responding to the Food and Drug Administration's order to disclose the> > amount of unhealthy trans fats on food labels by January 2006, food> > companies are racing to get rid of trans fats in their products. There> > are now, for example, "trans-fat-free" Oreos, Fritos, and Cocoa Puffs.> > > > While many think this may be good news, its not. > > > > The bad news: Many companies are replacing trans fats with palm oils and> > other high-in-saturated-fat tropical oils that are almost as> > heart-damaging as trans fats. Kraft, for instance, is using palm oil for> > the filling in its three trans-fat-free Oreo cookie varieties, reported> > The New York Times in February.> > > > Yes, Trans Fats Are the Worst Kind Of Fat> > > > Trans fats are man-made fats that were originally liquid oils but> > through hydrogenation (adding hydrogen to vegetable oils) become solid.> > In ingredient lists, foods with trans fats are usually listed as having> > "partially hydrogenated vegetable oils" like soybean, cottonseed, or> > canola. Numerous studies are now finding that trans fats not only raise> > LDL bad cholesterol but also lower HDL good cholesterol, prompting> > scientists nationwide to deride them as the worst kind of fat.> > > > But Palm Oil Is a Horrible Alternative> > > > But replacing them with palm oil and other tropical oils like coconut> > oil and palm kernel oil? "This is nuts!" "All these tropical oils are> > highly saturated fats. Like butter, cheese, and meat, tropical oils> > raise LDL cholesterol and clog arteries with plaque, increasing your> > risk of a heart attack."> > > > Coconut oil is getting promoted on the web, internet and even the health> > food industry, saying its healthy because most of its fat is made up of> > "medium" chain fatty acids (MCT), which are metabolized differently. > > Yes, it is true that a small portion of coconut oil is MCT (C-6 to C-10> > fatty acids) and these do get oxidized more quickly and appear less> > fattening than LCT and also appear to have little impact on LDL-C> > levels. However, because the vast majority of saturated fatty acids in> > cocnut oil are the longer cain fatty acids, C-12 to C-16 (Lauric,> > myristic and palmitic acids) it does in fact elevate LDL-C. "In fact,> > tropical oils can have more cholesterol-raising saturated fat than even> > butter. Coconut oil is 92% saturated, making it more saturated than> > butter, beef tallow, or even lard. Palm oil, though it contain less> > saturated fat (50%), is full of a type of saturated fat, palmitic acid,> > which appears to be most conducive to heart disease. Because of cocnut> > oils extremely high saturated fat content, it will elevate LDL-C more> > than just about any other fat. You just can't believe everything you> > read on the internet.> > > > In addition, the coconut oil industry likes to point out that the> > traditional Polynesian diet - high in tropical oils like coconut -is> > linked with relatively low rates of heart disease.> > > > However, it's important to remember that heart disease involves several> > variables, Yes, studies of people on traditional Polynesian diets have> > found that they have relatively low rates from heart disease despite> > very high LDL cholesterol levels, but other aspects of their native> > lifestyle are very healthful, and probably help counteract the> > cholesterol-raising effect of the coconut fat. Their traditional diet,> > for example, is very high in dietary fiber and heart-healthy omega 3> > fatty acids, and very low in sodium. Historically, native Polynesians> > also tended to be nonsmokers, and were physically very active. > > All these factors would certainly promote heart health.> > > > Artery Cloggers> > > > Ironically, it was health concerns over tropical oils in the 1980s that> > helped spur food manufacturers to use more trans fats in the first> > place. Now we're going BACK to tropical oils?. We're trading one> > artery-clogger for another?!> > > > Also outraged are nonprofit organizations, like Center for Science in> > the Public Interest (CSPI) in Washington, D.C., which complained to the> > FDA in August that some food labels, specifically Newman's Own, are> > leading Americans to believe that palm oil is significantly more> > healthful than trans fats. CSPI urged the FDA to halt the deceptive> > labeling.> > > > "The fact that palm oil isn't quite as bad as the absolute worst fat> > [trans fats] shouldn't give food marketers carte blanche to portray it> > as some kind of health food," said CSPI Executive Director > > son, PhD, in a press statement.> > > > > > What To Do:> > > > Go straight to the ingredient list. Steer clear of any product that> > contains partially hydrogenated oils and/or lists trans fats on the> > label as well as those containing tropical oils like coconut oil, palm> > kernel oil, or palm oil. Both trans fats and tropical oils are bad news> > for your heart, just like butter, lard, and beef tallow.> > > > Take political action. Write your congressmen and senators, urging them> > to press the FDA to crack down on claims that trick consumers into> > thinking that palm oils and other tropical oils are health foods, when> > in fact they are high in saturated fats that promote heart disease.> > > > Or go straight to the FDA at www.fda.gov or: > > > > Food and Drug Administration> > 5600 Fishers Lane Room 14-71> > Rockville, MD 20857> > > > Let's nip this one before we're "back to the future."> >>

[Guest guest]

No argument.

Looking at the FA profiles, coconut oil has more 16:0, while palm oil and palm kernel oil have more 10:0, 12:0, and 14:0. Coconut oil has more 18:1, 18:2.

Just guessing that coconut is less stable?

Regards.

[ ] Re: Palm oil 'reasonable' replacement for trans fats, say experts

Hi :I just lost without a trace a long reply to this post of yours.I do not have the patience to re-write it so here is the short version:I would need a TON of much better evidence than this before I would touch coconut oil with a ten foot pole.We are all free agents here, and can all make our own choices. My mind is made up until we see a lot more evidence than this.Rodney.> >> > >>Palm oil is a prime candidate to replace transfats. Read your labels> > carefully...> > > > I just wrote this on Palm Oil..> > > > The Oiling Of America: Bye Bye Trans Fat, Hello Palm Oil!> > > > Responding to the Food and Drug Administration's order to disclose the> > amount of unhealthy trans fats on food labels by January 2006, food> > companies are racing to get rid of trans fats in their products. There> > are now, for example, "trans-fat-free" Oreos, Fritos, and Cocoa Puffs.> > > > While many think this may be good news, its not. > > > > The bad news: Many companies are replacing trans fats with palm oils and> > other high-in-saturated-fat tropical oils that are almost as> > heart-damaging as trans fats. Kraft, for instance, is using palm oil for> > the filling in its three trans-fat-free Oreo cookie varieties, reported> > The New York Times in February.> > > > Yes, Trans Fats Are the Worst Kind Of Fat> > > > Trans fats are man-made fats that were originally liquid oils but> > through hydrogenation (adding hydrogen to vegetable oils) become solid.> > In ingredient lists, foods with trans fats are usually listed as having> > "partially hydrogenated vegetable oils" like soybean, cottonseed, or> > canola. Numerous studies are now finding that trans fats not only raise> > LDL bad cholesterol but also lower HDL good cholesterol, prompting> > scientists nationwide to deride them as the worst kind of fat.> > > > But Palm Oil Is a Horrible Alternative> > > > But replacing them with palm oil and other tropical oils like coconut> > oil and palm kernel oil? "This is nuts!" "All these tropical oils are> > highly saturated fats. Like butter, cheese, and meat, tropical oils> > raise LDL cholesterol and clog arteries with plaque, increasing your> > risk of a heart attack."> > > > Coconut oil is getting promoted on the web, internet and even the health> > food industry, saying its healthy because most of its fat is made up of> > "medium" chain fatty acids (MCT), which are metabolized differently. > > Yes, it is true that a small portion of coconut oil is MCT (C-6 to C-10> > fatty acids) and these do get oxidized more quickly and appear less> > fattening than LCT and also appear to have little impact on LDL-C> > levels. However, because the vast majority of saturated fatty acids in> > cocnut oil are the longer cain fatty acids, C-12 to C-16 (Lauric,> > myristic and palmitic acids) it does in fact elevate LDL-C. "In fact,> > tropical oils can have more cholesterol-raising saturated fat than even> > butter. Coconut oil is 92% saturated, making it more saturated than> > butter, beef tallow, or even lard. Palm oil, though it contain less> > saturated fat (50%), is full of a type of saturated fat, palmitic acid,> > which appears to be most conducive to heart disease. Because of cocnut> > oils extremely high saturated fat content, it will elevate LDL-C more> > than just about any other fat. You just can't believe everything you> > read on the internet.> > > > In addition, the coconut oil industry likes to point out that the> > traditional Polynesian diet - high in tropical oils like coconut -is> > linked with relatively low rates of heart disease.> > > > However, it's important to remember that heart disease involves several> > variables, Yes, studies of people on traditional Polynesian diets have> > found that they have relatively low rates from heart disease despite> > very high LDL cholesterol levels, but other aspects of their native> > lifestyle are very healthful, and probably help counteract the> > cholesterol-raising effect of the coconut fat. Their traditional diet,> > for example, is very high in dietary fiber and heart-healthy omega 3> > fatty acids, and very low in sodium. Historically, native Polynesians> > also tended to be nonsmokers, and were physically very active. > > All these factors would certainly promote heart health.> > > > Artery Cloggers> > > > Ironically, it was health concerns over tropical oils in the 1980s that> > helped spur food manufacturers to use more trans fats in the first> > place. Now we're going BACK to tropical oils?. We're trading one> > artery-clogger for another?!> > > > Also outraged are nonprofit organizations, like Center for Science in> > the Public Interest (CSPI) in Washington, D.C., which complained to the> > FDA in August that some food labels, specifically Newman's Own, are> > leading Americans to believe that palm oil is significantly more> > healthful than trans fats. CSPI urged the FDA to halt the deceptive> > labeling.> > > > "The fact that palm oil isn't quite as bad as the absolute worst fat> > [trans fats] shouldn't give food marketers carte blanche to portray it> > as some kind of health food," said CSPI Executive Director > > son, PhD, in a press statement.> > > > > > What To Do:> > > > Go straight to the ingredient list. Steer clear of any product that> > contains partially hydrogenated oils and/or lists trans fats on the> > label as well as those containing tropical oils like coconut oil, palm> > kernel oil, or palm oil. Both trans fats and tropical oils are bad news> > for your heart, just like butter, lard, and beef tallow.> > > > Take political action. Write your congressmen and senators, urging them> > to press the FDA to crack down on claims that trick consumers into> > thinking that palm oils and other tropical oils are health foods, when> > in fact they are high in saturated fats that promote heart disease.> > > > Or go straight to the FDA at www.fda.gov or: > > > > Food and Drug Administration> > 5600 Fishers Lane Room 14-71> > Rockville, MD 20857> > > > Let's nip this one before we're "back to the future."> >>

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

.... The most pronounced finding was that ischemic heart disease mortality in

1993-1995 was 2.98 and 3.14 times higher in Singapore than in Hong Kong in men

and

women, respectively. Of the five countries considered, Singapore has the highest

all-cause mortality in both sexes in the period of 1960-1995. The ratio of

animal to

vegetal fat was higher in Singapore (2.24) than in Hong Kong (1.08). Singapore

had

higher serum concentrations of total cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein

cholesterol than Hong Kong, but the opposite result was observed for

high-density

lipoprotein cholesterol. CONCLUSIONS: There are striking differences in

all-cause

and cardiovascular mortality between Hong Kong and Singapore. These differences

can

be most reasonably and plausibly explained by their differences in dietary

habits,

for example, a higher consumption of coconut and palm oil, mainly containing

saturated fat, in Singapore.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=11855581 & query_hl=46

--- Séguin <patrickseguin@...> wrote:

> Perhaps more than reasonable? Some interesting thoughts on the

> possibility of assigning another role for cholesterol, MCT and the

> protective qualities of coconut oil as evidenced by the low incidence

> of CHD in populations where it is used.

>

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=3519928 & itool=iconabstr & query_hl=5

>

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=3060695 & itool=iconabstr & query_hl=5

Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@...

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

.... The most pronounced finding was that ischemic heart disease mortality in

1993-1995 was 2.98 and 3.14 times higher in Singapore than in Hong Kong in men

and

women, respectively. Of the five countries considered, Singapore has the highest

all-cause mortality in both sexes in the period of 1960-1995. The ratio of

animal to

vegetal fat was higher in Singapore (2.24) than in Hong Kong (1.08). Singapore

had

higher serum concentrations of total cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein

cholesterol than Hong Kong, but the opposite result was observed for

high-density

lipoprotein cholesterol. CONCLUSIONS: There are striking differences in

all-cause

and cardiovascular mortality between Hong Kong and Singapore. These differences

can

be most reasonably and plausibly explained by their differences in dietary

habits,

for example, a higher consumption of coconut and palm oil, mainly containing

saturated fat, in Singapore.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=11855581 & query_hl=46

--- Séguin <patrickseguin@...> wrote:

> Perhaps more than reasonable? Some interesting thoughts on the

> possibility of assigning another role for cholesterol, MCT and the

> protective qualities of coconut oil as evidenced by the low incidence

> of CHD in populations where it is used.

>

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=3519928 & itool=iconabstr & query_hl=5

>

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=3060695 & itool=iconabstr & query_hl=5

Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@...

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I'm not going to eat either, Rodney, just pointing out that coconut is different from palm oil.

The choice for the mfgrs if they have to switch to a nonhydrogenated oil - it will have to be a stable oil, otherwise their products will spoil on the shelf.

Given that, and in lieu of a new mfgd oil, I think I would have to choose palm oil. to make those products. The American public will only decide based on taste, price, color, not what the FDA or anyone else says.

What I'm saying/asking is that the gurus put forth their choice for a "healthy" baking oil?

And it better be marketable.

I'll still eat what I cook, FWIW.

Everything else is lipservice.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Palm oil 'reasonable' replacement for trans fats, say experts

Hi JW:Well coconut oil is of course 100% fat. Of that fat 86.5% is saturated. And of that, 30% is myristic and palmitic - fats which most authorities consider to be the worst naturally occurring kind. Half is lauric acid, which some sources think is wonderful. I will believe that it is wonderful only after major empiricial studies, preferably conducted on the people who recommend this stuff, which add to their diet 20% of calories in the form of coconut oil and track their carotid IMT for five years, and show it to be improving.Or studies on pigs or hamsters which are sacrificed at the appropriate time and examined for CVD lesions and compared with non-coconut oil consuming controls.And if it is found to be beneficial, which foods are you going to now exclude from your diet in order to make way for the substantial number of calories that consuming coconut oil entails? Most of the other foods we eat contain other beneficial nutrients. Coconut oil, as with other oils, contains negligible amounts of other nutrients.Rodney.>> No argument.> Looking at the FA profiles, coconut oil has more 16:0, while palm oil and palm kernel oil have more 10:0, 12:0, and 14:0. Coconut oil has more 18:1, 18:2. > Just guessing that coconut is less stable?> > Regards.

[Guest guest]

I'm not going to eat either, Rodney, just pointing out that coconut is different from palm oil.

The choice for the mfgrs if they have to switch to a nonhydrogenated oil - it will have to be a stable oil, otherwise their products will spoil on the shelf.

Given that, and in lieu of a new mfgd oil, I think I would have to choose palm oil. to make those products. The American public will only decide based on taste, price, color, not what the FDA or anyone else says.

What I'm saying/asking is that the gurus put forth their choice for a "healthy" baking oil?

And it better be marketable.

I'll still eat what I cook, FWIW.

Everything else is lipservice.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Palm oil 'reasonable' replacement for trans fats, say experts

Hi JW:Well coconut oil is of course 100% fat. Of that fat 86.5% is saturated. And of that, 30% is myristic and palmitic - fats which most authorities consider to be the worst naturally occurring kind. Half is lauric acid, which some sources think is wonderful. I will believe that it is wonderful only after major empiricial studies, preferably conducted on the people who recommend this stuff, which add to their diet 20% of calories in the form of coconut oil and track their carotid IMT for five years, and show it to be improving.Or studies on pigs or hamsters which are sacrificed at the appropriate time and examined for CVD lesions and compared with non-coconut oil consuming controls.And if it is found to be beneficial, which foods are you going to now exclude from your diet in order to make way for the substantial number of calories that consuming coconut oil entails? Most of the other foods we eat contain other beneficial nutrients. Coconut oil, as with other oils, contains negligible amounts of other nutrients.Rodney.>> No argument.> Looking at the FA profiles, coconut oil has more 16:0, while palm oil and palm kernel oil have more 10:0, 12:0, and 14:0. Coconut oil has more 18:1, 18:2. > Just guessing that coconut is less stable?> > Regards.

[Guest guest]

Since all oils contain some sat fat, I have to conclude (again) that ingesting of any oil is bad, ergo, do low fat.

And let the body make what 16:0 it wants from carbos.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Palm oil 'reasonable' replacement for trans fats, say experts

Hi All,... The most pronounced finding was that ischemic heart disease mortality in1993-1995 was 2.98 and 3.14 times higher in Singapore than in Hong Kong in men andwomen, respectively. Of the five countries considered, Singapore has the highestall-cause mortality in both sexes in the period of 1960-1995. The ratio of animal tovegetal fat was higher in Singapore (2.24) than in Hong Kong (1.08). Singapore hadhigher serum concentrations of total cholesterol and low-density lipoproteincholesterol than Hong Kong, but the opposite result was observed for high-densitylipoprotein cholesterol. CONCLUSIONS: There are striking differences in all-causeand cardiovascular mortality between Hong Kong and Singapore. These differences canbe most reasonably and plausibly explained by their differences in dietary habits,for example, a higher consumption of coconut and palm oil, mainly containingsaturated fat, in Singapore.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=11855581 & query_hl=46--- Séguin <patrickseguin@...> wrote:> Perhaps more than reasonable? Some interesting thoughts on the> possibility of assigning another role for cholesterol, MCT and the> protective qualities of coconut oil as evidenced by the low incidence> of CHD in populations where it is used.> >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=3519928 & itool=iconabstr & query_hl=5> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=3060695 & itool=iconabstr & query_hl=5Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@...__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Since all oils contain some sat fat, I have to conclude (again) that ingesting of any oil is bad, ergo, do low fat.

And let the body make what 16:0 it wants from carbos.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Palm oil 'reasonable' replacement for trans fats, say experts

Hi All,... The most pronounced finding was that ischemic heart disease mortality in1993-1995 was 2.98 and 3.14 times higher in Singapore than in Hong Kong in men andwomen, respectively. Of the five countries considered, Singapore has the highestall-cause mortality in both sexes in the period of 1960-1995. The ratio of animal tovegetal fat was higher in Singapore (2.24) than in Hong Kong (1.08). Singapore hadhigher serum concentrations of total cholesterol and low-density lipoproteincholesterol than Hong Kong, but the opposite result was observed for high-densitylipoprotein cholesterol. CONCLUSIONS: There are striking differences in all-causeand cardiovascular mortality between Hong Kong and Singapore. These differences canbe most reasonably and plausibly explained by their differences in dietary habits,for example, a higher consumption of coconut and palm oil, mainly containingsaturated fat, in Singapore.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=11855581 & query_hl=46--- Séguin <patrickseguin@...> wrote:> Perhaps more than reasonable? Some interesting thoughts on the> possibility of assigning another role for cholesterol, MCT and the> protective qualities of coconut oil as evidenced by the low incidence> of CHD in populations where it is used.> >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=3519928 & itool=iconabstr & query_hl=5> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=3060695 & itool=iconabstr & query_hl=5Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@...__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>> Most of the other foods we eat contain other beneficial nutrients. Coconut

oil,

as with other oils, contains negligible amounts of other nutrients.

Now we are getting to the real issue.

Again, we must meet the nutritional requirements of the body. Granted, our

knowledge of them may not be perfect, but they are the best we have right now.

So, forget about all the diet fads, food hype, marketing madness, and super

foods, and design a diet with foods that meet all our nutritional requirements

with out excess of anything that is harmful. When you do this, you end up with

a diet that is " lower " in fat than what most people now consume and will be

based mostly on unprocessed, unrefined whole natural plant foods.

Arguing over isolated effects of isolated foods is good for food manufacters who

are trying to position their food against competing products in the market, but

has little value to us who are serious about nutrition.

I am a member of a music trading group and the other day someone posted an

article about the harmful effects of splenda and why everyone should remove it

from their diet and especially from the diet of their kids if they have any.

Now, on the surface, IF the info was true, which it wasnt, this may appear like

a noble concern. Yet, I know of the person who posted this. They are obese, a

heavy smoker and drinker, inactive and live on the typical diet of fast foods,

fried foods, and junk food. Their obesity and smoking alone will do more harm

to them and his kids than splenda could ever do. Yet, this article gave his

something to worry about and something he " thought " he could do that would be

" powerful " with out ever really having to change his lifestyle or deal with the

issues that are really going to kill him. It is a distraction.

Regards

jeff

[Guest guest]

>> Most of the other foods we eat contain other beneficial nutrients. Coconut

oil,

as with other oils, contains negligible amounts of other nutrients.

Now we are getting to the real issue.

Again, we must meet the nutritional requirements of the body. Granted, our

knowledge of them may not be perfect, but they are the best we have right now.

So, forget about all the diet fads, food hype, marketing madness, and super

foods, and design a diet with foods that meet all our nutritional requirements

with out excess of anything that is harmful. When you do this, you end up with

a diet that is " lower " in fat than what most people now consume and will be

based mostly on unprocessed, unrefined whole natural plant foods.

Arguing over isolated effects of isolated foods is good for food manufacters who

are trying to position their food against competing products in the market, but

has little value to us who are serious about nutrition.

I am a member of a music trading group and the other day someone posted an

article about the harmful effects of splenda and why everyone should remove it

from their diet and especially from the diet of their kids if they have any.

Now, on the surface, IF the info was true, which it wasnt, this may appear like

a noble concern. Yet, I know of the person who posted this. They are obese, a

heavy smoker and drinker, inactive and live on the typical diet of fast foods,

fried foods, and junk food. Their obesity and smoking alone will do more harm

to them and his kids than splenda could ever do. Yet, this article gave his

something to worry about and something he " thought " he could do that would be

" powerful " with out ever really having to change his lifestyle or deal with the

issues that are really going to kill him. It is a distraction.

Regards

jeff

[Guest guest]

Perhaps not better than tropical oils, but bread by Ener G uses safflower

oil. This bread has a long shelf life. http://www.ener-g.com/store/detail.aspx?sn=BreadProducts & id=1 & cat=2

jwwright wrote:

The simple fact

is that they will have to substitute something and unless the gurus can

suggest something that doesn't spoil......?

Come up with a

solution.

[Guest guest]

Perhaps not better than tropical oils, but bread by Ener G uses safflower

oil. This bread has a long shelf life. http://www.ener-g.com/store/detail.aspx?sn=BreadProducts & id=1 & cat=2

jwwright wrote:

The simple fact

is that they will have to substitute something and unless the gurus can

suggest something that doesn't spoil......?

Come up with a

solution.

[Guest guest]

I couldn't get that to come up yet, but bear in mind safflower oil isn't always high poly. The kind commonly sold and used is high oleic, and it appears to be stable to me. That may be the way to go. Wonder how they change the saff oil? I bot a bottle maybe 8 months ago, ended up using sunflower oil to get the polys. I keep that in the frig, and it appears ok.

Soybean oil same way, else it'll turn to varnish.

That may be the way to go. Wonder how they change the saff oil?

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Palm oil 'reasonable' replacement for trans fats, say experts

Perhaps not better than tropical oils, but bread by Ener G uses safflower oil. This bread has a long shelf life. http://www.ener-g.com/store/detail.aspx?sn=BreadProducts & id=1 & cat=2jwwright wrote:

The simple fact is that they will have to substitute something and unless the gurus can suggest something that doesn't spoil......?

Come up with a solution.

[Guest guest]

I couldn't get that to come up yet, but bear in mind safflower oil isn't always high poly. The kind commonly sold and used is high oleic, and it appears to be stable to me. That may be the way to go. Wonder how they change the saff oil? I bot a bottle maybe 8 months ago, ended up using sunflower oil to get the polys. I keep that in the frig, and it appears ok.

Soybean oil same way, else it'll turn to varnish.

That may be the way to go. Wonder how they change the saff oil?

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Palm oil 'reasonable' replacement for trans fats, say experts

Perhaps not better than tropical oils, but bread by Ener G uses safflower oil. This bread has a long shelf life. http://www.ener-g.com/store/detail.aspx?sn=BreadProducts & id=1 & cat=2jwwright wrote:

The simple fact is that they will have to substitute something and unless the gurus can suggest something that doesn't spoil......?

Come up with a solution.

[Guest guest]

I couldn't get link to work either... site may be down... another site shows

ingredients:

http://www.glutensolutions.com/proddetail.asp?categoryid=2 & sku=EGF%2D4 & mcatid=Gluten+Free+Foods & catid=Breads%2C+Buns+%26+Mixes & name=Brown+Rice+Loaf+Bread+%2D+Ready+to+Eat

or http://snipurl.com/l05t

This product is not soft yummy bread & would never be a big seller. I

only mention it because of different oil & long shelf life.

jwwright wrote:

I couldn't get

that to come up yet, but bear in mind safflower oil isn't always high poly.

The kind commonly sold and used is high oleic, and it appears to be stable

to me. That may be the

way to go. Wonder how they change the saff oil?

I bot a bottle maybe 8 months ago, ended up using sunflower oil to get the

polys. I keep that in the frig, and it appears ok.

Soybean oil same

way, else it'll turn to varnish.

That may be the

way to go. Wonder how they change the saff

[Guest guest]

I couldn't get link to work either... site may be down... another site shows

ingredients:

http://www.glutensolutions.com/proddetail.asp?categoryid=2 & sku=EGF%2D4 & mcatid=Gluten+Free+Foods & catid=Breads%2C+Buns+%26+Mixes & name=Brown+Rice+Loaf+Bread+%2D+Ready+to+Eat

or http://snipurl.com/l05t

This product is not soft yummy bread & would never be a big seller. I

only mention it because of different oil & long shelf life.

jwwright wrote:

I couldn't get

that to come up yet, but bear in mind safflower oil isn't always high poly.

The kind commonly sold and used is high oleic, and it appears to be stable

to me. That may be the

way to go. Wonder how they change the saff oil?

I bot a bottle maybe 8 months ago, ended up using sunflower oil to get the

polys. I keep that in the frig, and it appears ok.

Soybean oil same

way, else it'll turn to varnish.

That may be the

way to go. Wonder how they change the saff