Re: Atkins - fluid gain, coronary artery disease, hard vs. surrogate outcomes.

[Guest guest]

According to his wife in an released PR statement..

Quoting..

" Did Have Some Progression of His Coronary Artery Disease in the Last 3

Years of His Life Including Some New Blockage of a Secondary Artery. "

According to Atkins Nutritonals..

Quoting..

" At the time of his injury at the age of 72, after years of following

the Atkins Nutritional ApproachTM, Dr. Atkins' recorded height was 6

feet and his recorded weight was 195 pounds. In today's Wall Street

Journal a grossly distorted story on the health of Dr. C. Atkins

reported that he weighed 258 pounds at the time of his death, making him

obese. In fact, the day after his fall, Dr. Atkins' weight was recorded

as 195 pounds, 63 pounds less than reported at his death! Based on the

body mass index (BMI), a desirable range for people over the age of 65,

is 24 to 29. At a height of 6 feet, Dr. Atkins' BMI was 26.4, putting

him squarely in the normal range for his age. "

26.4 is overweight.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

According to his wife in an released PR statement..

Quoting..

" Did Have Some Progression of His Coronary Artery Disease in the Last 3

Years of His Life Including Some New Blockage of a Secondary Artery. "

According to Atkins Nutritonals..

Quoting..

" At the time of his injury at the age of 72, after years of following

the Atkins Nutritional ApproachTM, Dr. Atkins' recorded height was 6

feet and his recorded weight was 195 pounds. In today's Wall Street

Journal a grossly distorted story on the health of Dr. C. Atkins

reported that he weighed 258 pounds at the time of his death, making him

obese. In fact, the day after his fall, Dr. Atkins' weight was recorded

as 195 pounds, 63 pounds less than reported at his death! Based on the

body mass index (BMI), a desirable range for people over the age of 65,

is 24 to 29. At a height of 6 feet, Dr. Atkins' BMI was 26.4, putting

him squarely in the normal range for his age. "

26.4 is overweight.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Well, while we clearly do not have the complete facts in this case, I

suggest we do have the smoking gun with the fingerprints on it.

If the full autopsy results do in fact show that Dr. Atkins' heart

problems were of a kind that had absolutely nothing to do with his

diet, then I do not doubt for a moment that his wife and all the rest

of his associates in his dietary financial empire would be falling

all over themselves to show us the full report, thereby factually

confirming what they would have us believe, but for which they are

not prepared to provide the evidence.

I believe he killed himself by his diet. I will continue to believe

that until those who are in possession of the evidence produce it for

everyone to see.

These people certainly wouldn't pass muster to post here at

, where there is this irritating little requirement

that evidence be provided to support unusual or important claims.

Rodney.

>

> > He didnt gain that much weight in the hospital. If he did, there

> would have been medical intervention.

> ----------------------------

> That's not the way I read it. When you have patients, especially

> comatose patients, admitted to the ICU, physicians normally give

> them IV fluids. Usually about 2-3 L/day. Patients also receive

> fluids with their medications. Almost every medication to such

> patients is given mixed with salt or salt plus water. These

> patients often retain salt and water, because they have enormously

> high levels of cortisol and other stress hormones, their kidney

> function often goes down, etc. etc.

>

> This is from the website:

>

> http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp

>

> " Thanks to his death certificate (as displayed at The Smoking Gun),

> we know Atkins was 258 pounds at the time of his death. Yet

> according to a copy of his medical records, as turned over to USA

> Today by the diet guru's widow, Atkins weighed 195 pounds upon

> admission to the hospital 8 April 2003 following his fall. He died

> on 17 April 2003 after having been in a coma for more than a week. "

>

> This sounds very believable to me. People who saw Atkins prior to

> his death note that he did not look obese. A 260 lb. weight in a

> person under 6 feet tall would be very noticeably obese.

>

> With regard to his heart condition, as far as I read, Atkins never

> had coronary artery disease, but a form of cardiomyopathy - this is

> a disease that affect cardiac muscle directly and is not due to

> insufficient blood supply due to coronary atherosclerosis. He had

a

> cardiac arrest due to this myopathy. This is described in the lay

> press as a " heart attack " , which is confusing, since

usually, " heart

> attack " means myocardial infarction, due to coronary artery

disease.

> Without looking at the autopsy report, one can't be sure - but I

> haven't seen any information that Atkins ever had coronary artery

> disease. The causes of cardiomyopathy are many. Few are diet

> related and those that are usually are due to severe vitamin

> deficiency. Most are due to virus infections. So it is doubtful

> that Atkins' heart problems were due to his diet. (I do read,

> however, that some people doing Atkins and eating a lot of

saturated

> fat do have increases in their lipids, and there is one lawsuit

> underway where a person contends that Atkins cause his heart

attack -

> to prove or disprove this would require a large randomized,

> controlled trial - so we'll never know).

>

> See:

> http://archives.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/diet.fitness/04/25/atkins.diet/

>

> and also:

> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/16/atkins.widow/

>

> It's easy to think simplistically. There are many thinks other

than

> atherosclerosis that incapacitate and kill people. This also is

> relevant in choosing the best diet.

>

> Just because a given diet improves insulin sensitivity or lowers

> certain markers of atherosclerosis, or increases HDL cholesterol,

by

> no means assures that that particular diet will have an overall

> beneficial effect on health.

>

> This is why the final measure of any diet is in terms of so-

> called " hard outcomes " . Will this diet

>

> a) Make you live longer?

> Result in fewer hospitalizations?

> c) Improve quality of life?

>

> Right now people are focusing on so-called " surrogate outcomes " -

> primarily weight loss and inflammatory and lipid markers in the

> blood, etc., or for high blood pressure - lowering of the blood

> pressure.

>

> This is OK, but each one of these diets may conceivably be doing

> something bad to the body in some other area that might counteract

> the apparently good effect on these surrogate outcomes.

>

> Just a few examples:

> 1) You have no muscle mass. You lose protection of " sitzfleisch "

> and prolonged sitting causes damage to your pudendal and other

> nerves - a form of " bicycle seat neuropathy " . You develop bladder

> and bowel problems, leading to a markedly diminished quality of

life.

> 2) You have no tissue reserves. You develop some serious medical

> condition and are hospitalized. You can't eat for several weeks

> because of your condition. Because you have no reserves, you

> rapidly become malnourished, infected, and die.

> 3) You develop osteoporosis. At age 85 you fall on the sidewalk

and

> break your hip. You die in the hospital due to complications of

hip

> surgery.

> 4) Your spouse gets tired of your obsessive eating habits. He or

> she feels unloved because you don't eat the food they prepare.

Your

> spouse divorces you. Divorced people have a much lower life

> expectancy than married people.

> 5) You and your fat friend are on a sailing trip in the Caribbean.

> Your boat capsizes and you are in the water for 18 hours until

being

> rescued. After 18 hours your fat friend is plucked out of the

water

> by the Coast Guard. You die of hypothermia after the initial 6

> hours of being in the water (I think this is a paraphrase of a

story

> that actually happened).

>

> I'm just speaking generally here - philosophizing, and not talking

> about any one diet in particular. So we need to take a broad look

> at these diets in general.

>

> Unfortunately, no hard outcome studies have been done yet in humans

> using a prospective, randomized design, that I know of. I believe

> some such studies now are underway. The problem is, that such

> studies usually require thousands of patients to show a difference

> in death rate.

>

> Anyway, not that I'm pro or against Atkins, but the facts appear to

> be that (1) he had cardiomyopathy, and not atherosclerosis, (2) he

> was never obese, as his admission hospital record showed a weight

of

> 197 lbs which for his height was quite appropriate, and (3) these

> massive weight gains in hospital ICU patients happen all the time -

> they are " iatrogenic " - due to IV fluid administration, and have

> nothing to do with metabolism or diet or carbs.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Well, while we clearly do not have the complete facts in this case, I

suggest we do have the smoking gun with the fingerprints on it.

If the full autopsy results do in fact show that Dr. Atkins' heart

problems were of a kind that had absolutely nothing to do with his

diet, then I do not doubt for a moment that his wife and all the rest

of his associates in his dietary financial empire would be falling

all over themselves to show us the full report, thereby factually

confirming what they would have us believe, but for which they are

not prepared to provide the evidence.

I believe he killed himself by his diet. I will continue to believe

that until those who are in possession of the evidence produce it for

everyone to see.

These people certainly wouldn't pass muster to post here at

, where there is this irritating little requirement

that evidence be provided to support unusual or important claims.

Rodney.

>

> > He didnt gain that much weight in the hospital. If he did, there

> would have been medical intervention.

> ----------------------------

> That's not the way I read it. When you have patients, especially

> comatose patients, admitted to the ICU, physicians normally give

> them IV fluids. Usually about 2-3 L/day. Patients also receive

> fluids with their medications. Almost every medication to such

> patients is given mixed with salt or salt plus water. These

> patients often retain salt and water, because they have enormously

> high levels of cortisol and other stress hormones, their kidney

> function often goes down, etc. etc.

>

> This is from the website:

>

> http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp

>

> " Thanks to his death certificate (as displayed at The Smoking Gun),

> we know Atkins was 258 pounds at the time of his death. Yet

> according to a copy of his medical records, as turned over to USA

> Today by the diet guru's widow, Atkins weighed 195 pounds upon

> admission to the hospital 8 April 2003 following his fall. He died

> on 17 April 2003 after having been in a coma for more than a week. "

>

> This sounds very believable to me. People who saw Atkins prior to

> his death note that he did not look obese. A 260 lb. weight in a

> person under 6 feet tall would be very noticeably obese.

>

> With regard to his heart condition, as far as I read, Atkins never

> had coronary artery disease, but a form of cardiomyopathy - this is

> a disease that affect cardiac muscle directly and is not due to

> insufficient blood supply due to coronary atherosclerosis. He had

a

> cardiac arrest due to this myopathy. This is described in the lay

> press as a " heart attack " , which is confusing, since

usually, " heart

> attack " means myocardial infarction, due to coronary artery

disease.

> Without looking at the autopsy report, one can't be sure - but I

> haven't seen any information that Atkins ever had coronary artery

> disease. The causes of cardiomyopathy are many. Few are diet

> related and those that are usually are due to severe vitamin

> deficiency. Most are due to virus infections. So it is doubtful

> that Atkins' heart problems were due to his diet. (I do read,

> however, that some people doing Atkins and eating a lot of

saturated

> fat do have increases in their lipids, and there is one lawsuit

> underway where a person contends that Atkins cause his heart

attack -

> to prove or disprove this would require a large randomized,

> controlled trial - so we'll never know).

>

> See:

> http://archives.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/diet.fitness/04/25/atkins.diet/

>

> and also:

> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/16/atkins.widow/

>

> It's easy to think simplistically. There are many thinks other

than

> atherosclerosis that incapacitate and kill people. This also is

> relevant in choosing the best diet.

>

> Just because a given diet improves insulin sensitivity or lowers

> certain markers of atherosclerosis, or increases HDL cholesterol,

by

> no means assures that that particular diet will have an overall

> beneficial effect on health.

>

> This is why the final measure of any diet is in terms of so-

> called " hard outcomes " . Will this diet

>

> a) Make you live longer?

> Result in fewer hospitalizations?

> c) Improve quality of life?

>

> Right now people are focusing on so-called " surrogate outcomes " -

> primarily weight loss and inflammatory and lipid markers in the

> blood, etc., or for high blood pressure - lowering of the blood

> pressure.

>

> This is OK, but each one of these diets may conceivably be doing

> something bad to the body in some other area that might counteract

> the apparently good effect on these surrogate outcomes.

>

> Just a few examples:

> 1) You have no muscle mass. You lose protection of " sitzfleisch "

> and prolonged sitting causes damage to your pudendal and other

> nerves - a form of " bicycle seat neuropathy " . You develop bladder

> and bowel problems, leading to a markedly diminished quality of

life.

> 2) You have no tissue reserves. You develop some serious medical

> condition and are hospitalized. You can't eat for several weeks

> because of your condition. Because you have no reserves, you

> rapidly become malnourished, infected, and die.

> 3) You develop osteoporosis. At age 85 you fall on the sidewalk

and

> break your hip. You die in the hospital due to complications of

hip

> surgery.

> 4) Your spouse gets tired of your obsessive eating habits. He or

> she feels unloved because you don't eat the food they prepare.

Your

> spouse divorces you. Divorced people have a much lower life

> expectancy than married people.

> 5) You and your fat friend are on a sailing trip in the Caribbean.

> Your boat capsizes and you are in the water for 18 hours until

being

> rescued. After 18 hours your fat friend is plucked out of the

water

> by the Coast Guard. You die of hypothermia after the initial 6

> hours of being in the water (I think this is a paraphrase of a

story

> that actually happened).

>

> I'm just speaking generally here - philosophizing, and not talking

> about any one diet in particular. So we need to take a broad look

> at these diets in general.

>

> Unfortunately, no hard outcome studies have been done yet in humans

> using a prospective, randomized design, that I know of. I believe

> some such studies now are underway. The problem is, that such

> studies usually require thousands of patients to show a difference

> in death rate.

>

> Anyway, not that I'm pro or against Atkins, but the facts appear to

> be that (1) he had cardiomyopathy, and not atherosclerosis, (2) he

> was never obese, as his admission hospital record showed a weight

of

> 197 lbs which for his height was quite appropriate, and (3) these

> massive weight gains in hospital ICU patients happen all the time -

> they are " iatrogenic " - due to IV fluid administration, and have

> nothing to do with metabolism or diet or carbs.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>I do read, however, that some people doing Atkins and eating a lot of

saturated fat do have increases in their lipids, and there is one

lawsuit underway where a person contends that Atkins cause his heart

attack - to prove or disprove this would require a large randomized,

controlled trial - so we'll never know

The man is Jody Gorran and the suit is going forward inspite of several

attempts to stop it by Atkins Nutritonals lawyers. I know him well.

Fortunately for him, he had a complete exam and tests done, only weeks

before he began atkins showing clear arteries and all numbers in low to

no risk zone. After following Atkins he had chest pain, and repeating

the earlier tests, he had advanced blockage and all his numbers were now

in high risk.

He came here, spent three weeks and has maintained the program. His

numbers are back to normal. What is most interesting is he is actually

using Atkins own studies as part of his case because in the studies, 1/3

of the patients got worse and several died.

>>I'm just speaking generally here - philosophizing, and not talking

about any one diet in particular. So we need to take a broad look at

these diets in general.

I agree. But, we do see lots of similarities in those populations that

are long lived. Only problem, the media likes to sensationalize the

" exceptions " within these populations, and not the common factors which

really keep them healthy.

>>these massive weight gains in hospital ICU patients happen all the

time - they are " iatrogenic " - due to IV fluid administration,

Are you saying they would allow him to gain 63 lbs in one week and not

begin to limit fluids and or give him a diuretic or intervene? I have

yet to find a MD who says that is " typical " or that they wouldn't have

intervened.

>>It's easy to think simplistically. There are many thinks other than

atherosclerosis that incapacitate and kill people. This also is

relevant in choosing the best diet.

I am not thinking simplistically in anyway about diet or lifestyle, nor

am I saying he died of atherosclerosis. I am trying to provide accurate

info about the situation.

Jeff

PS In 1970, there was a huge lawsuit between the two. As a result,

made the challenge that upon their deaths, their autposies should

be published. Pritikin, who was diagnosed with advanced heart

disease and blockage at the age of 41, had his autopsy published in the

NEJM. The paper stated that there was no sign of any blocklage and his

arteries where clean as a whistle, like that of a teenager. Atkins had

no internal autopsy done and his body cremated.

PSS One other interesting note on Atkins fall and ensuing death. When

most people fall and slip on the ice, there is usually a related injury

in their attempt to " break " the fall, (ie, sprained or broken wrist,

elbow, shoulder, fingers, etc). In his case, there was none. So, did

he slip and fall and make no attempt to " break " the fall? Or did

something happen (Stroke, MI etc) to cause his loss of consciousness and

a fall? The only mark from the fall on his body was the " blunt impact "

on his forehead. How many people do you know who slip forward and do

nothing to try and stop themselves?

[Guest guest]

>>I do read, however, that some people doing Atkins and eating a lot of

saturated fat do have increases in their lipids, and there is one

lawsuit underway where a person contends that Atkins cause his heart

attack - to prove or disprove this would require a large randomized,

controlled trial - so we'll never know

The man is Jody Gorran and the suit is going forward inspite of several

attempts to stop it by Atkins Nutritonals lawyers. I know him well.

Fortunately for him, he had a complete exam and tests done, only weeks

before he began atkins showing clear arteries and all numbers in low to

no risk zone. After following Atkins he had chest pain, and repeating

the earlier tests, he had advanced blockage and all his numbers were now

in high risk.

He came here, spent three weeks and has maintained the program. His

numbers are back to normal. What is most interesting is he is actually

using Atkins own studies as part of his case because in the studies, 1/3

of the patients got worse and several died.

>>I'm just speaking generally here - philosophizing, and not talking

about any one diet in particular. So we need to take a broad look at

these diets in general.

I agree. But, we do see lots of similarities in those populations that

are long lived. Only problem, the media likes to sensationalize the

" exceptions " within these populations, and not the common factors which

really keep them healthy.

>>these massive weight gains in hospital ICU patients happen all the

time - they are " iatrogenic " - due to IV fluid administration,

Are you saying they would allow him to gain 63 lbs in one week and not

begin to limit fluids and or give him a diuretic or intervene? I have

yet to find a MD who says that is " typical " or that they wouldn't have

intervened.

>>It's easy to think simplistically. There are many thinks other than

atherosclerosis that incapacitate and kill people. This also is

relevant in choosing the best diet.

I am not thinking simplistically in anyway about diet or lifestyle, nor

am I saying he died of atherosclerosis. I am trying to provide accurate

info about the situation.

Jeff

PS In 1970, there was a huge lawsuit between the two. As a result,

made the challenge that upon their deaths, their autposies should

be published. Pritikin, who was diagnosed with advanced heart

disease and blockage at the age of 41, had his autopsy published in the

NEJM. The paper stated that there was no sign of any blocklage and his

arteries where clean as a whistle, like that of a teenager. Atkins had

no internal autopsy done and his body cremated.

PSS One other interesting note on Atkins fall and ensuing death. When

most people fall and slip on the ice, there is usually a related injury

in their attempt to " break " the fall, (ie, sprained or broken wrist,

elbow, shoulder, fingers, etc). In his case, there was none. So, did

he slip and fall and make no attempt to " break " the fall? Or did

something happen (Stroke, MI etc) to cause his loss of consciousness and

a fall? The only mark from the fall on his body was the " blunt impact "

on his forehead. How many people do you know who slip forward and do

nothing to try and stop themselves?

[Guest guest]

This suggests an idea that maybe its not a fair comparison - a low carbo intake person with a low fat intake person?

I know when I tried an Atkin's approach I had to modify the way I compute weight drop overnight.

Regards

---- Original Message -----

From: jt_qod

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 10:40 AM

Subject: [ ] Atkins - fluid gain, coronary artery disease, "hard" vs. surrogate outcomes.

> He didnt gain that much weight in the hospital. If he did, there would have been medical intervention.----------------------------That's not the way I read it. When you have patients, especially comatose patients, admitted to the ICU, physicians normally give them IV fluids. Usually about 2-3 L/day. Patients also receive fluids with their medications. Almost every medication to such patients is given mixed with salt or salt plus water. These patients often retain salt and water, because they have enormously high levels of cortisol and other stress hormones, their kidney function often goes down, etc. etc.

[Guest guest]

This suggests an idea that maybe its not a fair comparison - a low carbo intake person with a low fat intake person?

I know when I tried an Atkin's approach I had to modify the way I compute weight drop overnight.

Regards

---- Original Message -----

From: jt_qod

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 10:40 AM

Subject: [ ] Atkins - fluid gain, coronary artery disease, "hard" vs. surrogate outcomes.

> He didnt gain that much weight in the hospital. If he did, there would have been medical intervention.----------------------------That's not the way I read it. When you have patients, especially comatose patients, admitted to the ICU, physicians normally give them IV fluids. Usually about 2-3 L/day. Patients also receive fluids with their medications. Almost every medication to such patients is given mixed with salt or salt plus water. These patients often retain salt and water, because they have enormously high levels of cortisol and other stress hormones, their kidney function often goes down, etc. etc.