Re: Re: Alzheimer , dementia, and glucose control

[Guest guest]

»Alzheimers, and dementia all stem from the inability of the human body to cope

with high carbohydrate diets.

This is another hint about what Optimum Nutrition entails.

1) generic comments like 'high carb' diets are useless due to the immense

variability of high carb diets. (same for 'low fat')

2) what's the incidence of alzheimers in Okinawa, rural japan??

3) Evidence is linking the same risk factors for alzheimers as for CVD.. High

fat, sat fat, cholesterol, trans fat, refined carb low fiber diets..

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Correct..

But you keep vilifying a high carb diet, the 15;55;30 you speak of and

rightfully so. As it is the typical american diet that also has 12-15 grams of

fiber in it, over 300 mgs of cholesterol, is 12% saturated fat, low in omega 3s,

high in omega 6s, a ratio between the 2 of 14 to 1 or more, 15-20% kcals from

refined sugar and another 20-25% kcals and from refined carbs. Again, this

should be vilified.

But that doesn't in anyway vilify the high carb diet (actually higher carb diet

of 60-70%) that the Mexican pima indians eat, where in a genetically suscebtible

population, DB is virtually unknown..

Or the high carb diet we serve here and publish on, that we have reduced fasting

insulin levels 36%, reversed metabolic syndrome in 50% of the pts in 12 days and

helped 70% of type 2 DBs get off their oral meds abd 40% get off their insulin..

Thanks

jeff

[Guest guest]

Correct..

But you keep vilifying a high carb diet, the 15;55;30 you speak of and

rightfully so. As it is the typical american diet that also has 12-15 grams

of fiber in it, over 300 mgs of cholesterol, is 12% saturated fat, low in

omega 3s, high in omega 6s, a ratio between the 2 of 14 to 1 or more,

15-20% kcals from refined sugar and another 20-25% kcals and from refined

carbs. Again, this should be vilified.

But that doesn't in anyway vilify the high carb diet (actually higher carb

diet of 60-70%) that the Mexican pima indians eat, where in a genetically

suscebtible population, DB is virtually unknown..

== I thought Pimas were known as a population that's rife with type 2 DB.

Or the high carb diet we serve here and publish on, that we have reduced

fasting insulin levels 36%, reversed metabolic syndrome in 50% of the pts in

12 days and helped 70% of type 2 DBs get off their oral meds abd 40% get off

their insulin..

== PMID 16556307 refers to hyperglycemia in DBs (not insulin levels, not

MS). A high carbohydrate diet results in hyperglycemia in DBs and that

hyperglycemia can be improved by lowering the diet's carb component. I don't

see how that can be argued with.

Al

[Guest guest]

>>I thought Pimas were known as a population that's rife with type 2 DB. Correct, thats their cousins who live in Arizona.. Around 50% of the population has Type 2 DBs. Thats how we know their are genetically predisposed. However, the Pimas who live in Mexico and still live and eat the way they have for hundreds of years, which is a very high carb diet, have virtually no diabetes. Same genetic make up. >>PMID 16556307 refers to hyperglycemia in DBs (not insulin levels, not MS). A high carbohydrate diet results in hyperglycemia in DBs and that hyperglycemia can be improved by lowering the diet's carb component. I don't see how that can be argued with. Of course it can. First, I mentioned the insulin but our results are also on hyperglycemia. But, IR is thought to be the precursor to DB. Second, I also posted that in our research on 652 diabetics, 70% on oral agents left free of such medications; 39% on insulin left insulin-free. . Diabetes Care, 17: 1469, 1994. This is because of drops in glucose levels. Third, There are many other published studies even going back to the days of Walter Kempner who using the rice diet (very high carb) succesfully treated DBs. And have continued to the present day. (Please excuse the date of the study Francesca).. Kempner W. Effect of the rice diet on diabetes mellitus associated with vascular disease. Postgrad Med. 1958; 24:359-71. Kiehm TG, JW, Ward K. Beneficial effects of a high carbohydrate, high fiber diet on hyperglycemic diabetic men. Am J Clin Nutr. 1976 Aug;29(8):895-9. Nicholson AS, Sklar M, Barnard ND, Gore S, Sullivan R, Browning S. Toward improved management of NIDDM: A randomized, controlled, pilot intervention using a lowfat, vegetarian diet. Prev Med. 1999 Aug;29(2):87-91. DJ, Kendall CW, Marchie A, AL, Augustin LS, Ludwig DS, Barnard ND, JW. Type 2 diabetes and the vegetarian diet. Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3 Suppl):610S-616S. For those who want, you can read an excellent article written by my collegue on this subject with all the references listed.. http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/insulinresistance.pdf Finally, with all due respect to those who have posted on this.... I am amazed that with all the detail that is discussed

here in dissecting the different components and types and source and ratios of fat, in different diets and trying to clarify the distinctions between the MUFA, PUFA, SFA, Trans, and Hydrogen and Omega 3, Omega 6, EPA , DHA, and their sources and relevent ratios, that we are then just willing to throw all diets that are 55% carb (or higher) together as bad, without looking as detailed into the types of carbs, sources of carb, degree of refinement, fiber content, type of fiber content, ratio of fiber to calories, ratio of fiber to carb, and instead just accept the theory of some best selling diet book author that has little if any published evidence to support it and some published evidence showing its problems and ineffectiveness. Play fair! RegardsJeff

[Guest guest]

Eur J Clin Nutr. 2004 Nov;58(11):1443-61. Links Cereal grains, legumes and diabetes. Venn BJ, Mann JI. Department of Human Nutrition, University of Otago, New Zealand. bernard.venn@... This review examines the evidence for the role of whole grain foods and legumes in the aetiology and management of diabetes. MedLine and SilverPlatter ('Nutrition' and 'Food Science FSTA') databases were searched to

identify epidemiological and experimental studies relating to the effects of whole grain foods and legumes on indicators of carbohydrate metabolism. Epidemiological studies strongly support the suggestion that high intakes of whole grain foods protect against the development of type II diabetes mellitus (T2DM). People who consume approximately 3 servings per day of whole grain foods are less likely to develop T2DM than low consumers (<3 servings per week) with a risk reduction in the order of 20-30%. The role of legumes in the prevention of diabetes is less clear, possibly because of the relatively low intake of leguminous foods in the populations studied. However, legumes share several qualities with whole grains of potential benefit to glycaemic control including slow release carbohydrate and a high fibre content. A substantial increase in dietary intake of legumes as replacement food for more rapidly digested carbohydrate might therefore be expected to improve

glycaemic control and thus reduce incident diabetes. This is consistent with the results of dietary intervention studies that have found improvements in glycaemic control after increasing the dietary intake of whole grain foods, legumes, vegetables and fruit. The benefit has been attributed to an increase in soluble fibre intake. However, prospective studies have found that soluble fibre intake is not associated with a lower incidence of T2DM. On the contrary, it is cereal fibre that is largely insoluble that is associated with a reduced risk of developing T2DM. Despite this, the addition of wheat bran to the diets of diabetic people has not improved indicators of glycaemic control. These apparently contradictory findings might be explained by metabolic studies that have indicated improvement in glucose handling is associated with the intact structure of food. For both grains and legumes, fine grinding disrupts cell structures and renders starch more readily accessible for

digestion. The extent to which the intact structure of grains and legumes or the composition of foods in terms of dietary fibre and other constituents contribute to the beneficial effect remains to be quantified. Other mechanisms to help explain improvements in glycaemic control when consuming whole grains and legumes relate to cooking, type of starch, satiety and nutrient retention. Thus, there is strong evidence to suggest that eating a variety of whole grain foods and legumes is beneficial in the prevention and management of diabetes. This is compatible with advice from around the world that recommends consumption of a wide range of carbohydrate foods from cereals, vegetables, legumes and fruits both for the general population and for people with diabetes. PMID: 15162131 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

>>>I thought Pimas were known as a population that's rife with type 2 DB.

>

> Correct, thats their cousins who live in Arizona.. Around 50% of the

> population has Type 2 DBs. Thats how we know their are genetically

> predisposed. However, the Pimas who live in Mexico and still live and eat

> the way they have for hundreds of years, which is a very high carb diet,

> have virtually no diabetes. Same genetic make up.

>

> >>PMID 16556307 refers to hyperglycemia in DBs (not insulin levels, not

> MS). A high carbohydrate diet results in hyperglycemia in DBs and that

> hyperglycemia can be improved by lowering the diet's carb component. I

> don't

> see how that can be argued with.

>

> Of course it can.

But you haven't shown that, istm.

> First, I mentioned the insulin but our results are also on hyperglycemia.

> But, IR is thought to be the precursor to DB.

Do you deny, then, that, among your diabetic clients, if the carb component

of their diet was lowered, it would result in further improvement of their

hyperglycemia?

Look, Jeff, I have no doubt that your regimen (including, I'm guessing,

exercise and slow acting carbs) helps fat people that were hitherto pounding

jelly donuts and Ho-Hos drastically improve their glucose profile, but I

also have no doubt that carbs are the macronutrient that figures most

prominently in glucose excursions... that diabetics put heart and soul into

heading off.

To deny the role of dietary carbs vis-a-vis hyperglycemia in diabetics (1 or

2) is simply untenable.

> Second, I also posted that in our research on 652 diabetics, 70% on oral

> agents left free of such medications; 39% on insulin left insulin-free. .

> Diabetes Care, 17: 1469, 1994. This is because of drops in glucose

> levels.

...and if the carb component of their diet was lowered, an improvement in

their blood glucose (AUC & A1c) would almost certainly have been realized,

no?

As I say, I don't doubt this. But your above doesn't address the idea that

blood glucose levels in diabetics drop with the proportion (and type - fast,

slow) of carbs in the diet.

> Third, There are many other published studies even going back to the days

> of Walter Kempner who using the rice diet (very high carb) succesfully

> treated DBs. And have continued to the present day.

My sense is that a diabetic would experience a bg spike just watching an

Uncle Ben's commercial.

> (Please excuse the date of the study Francesca)..

>

> Kempner W. Effect of the rice diet on diabetes mellitus associated with

> vascular disease. Postgrad Med. 1958; 24:359-71.

A half century old study? Around this time Bernstein was being

stonewalled by the American Diabetes Association regarding the usefulness of

monitoring one's own bg levels.

> Kiehm TG, JW, Ward K. Beneficial effects of a high

> carbohydrate, high fiber diet on hyperglycemic diabetic men. Am J Clin

> Nutr. 1976 Aug;29(8):895-9.

>

> Nicholson AS, Sklar M, Barnard ND, Gore S, Sullivan R, Browning S.

> Toward improved management of NIDDM: A randomized, controlled, pilot

> intervention using a lowfat, vegetarian diet. Prev Med. 1999

> Aug;29(2):87-91.

>

> DJ, Kendall CW, Marchie A, AL, Augustin LS, Ludwig DS,

> Barnard ND, JW. Type 2 diabetes and the vegetarian diet. Am J

> Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3 Suppl):610S-616S.

>

> For those who want, you can read an excellent article written by my

> collegue on this subject with all the references listed..

>

> http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/insulinresistance.pdf

>

> Finally, with all due respect to those who have posted on this....

>

> I am amazed that with all the detail that is discussed here in dissecting

> the different components and types and source and ratios of fat, in

> different diets and trying to clarify the distinctions between the MUFA,

> PUFA, SFA, Trans, and Hydrogen and Omega 3, Omega 6, EPA , DHA, and their

> sources and relevent ratios, that we are then just willing to throw all

> diets that are 55% carb (or higher) together as bad, without looking as

> detailed into the types of carbs, sources of carb, degree of refinement,

> fiber content, type of fiber content, ratio of fiber to calories, ratio of

> fiber to carb, and instead just accept the theory of some best selling

> diet book author that has little if any published evidence to support it

> and some published evidence showing its problems and ineffectiveness.

>

> Play fair!

I don't contend that 55% and higher carb diets are bad, at least I hope

they're not inasmuch as my own diet is probably over 55% carb (15-20

servings fruits-vegs/day); but I'm not diabetic. All I'm saying is that, as

PMID 16556307 says, diabetics can benefit from low carb diets regarding

control of their disease. And I don't think that can be argued against.

Al

[Guest guest]

I acknowledged that the Kempner study was old. I listed it to show that this wasnt new info. But in all fairness, are you going to hang your hat on the "just" one study you and Tony posted? >>Do you deny, then, that, among your diabetic clients, if the carb component of their diet was lowered, it would result in further improvement of their hyperglycemia? What is futher improvement? They are already being taken off their medications due to the normalization of blood sugars. Their glucose drops to the 80s and their HBG A1C drops to under 6. How much better do you want them to be? Now, sometimes, the blood sugars dont respond as well in some, maybe the first week or so. This happens in about 1/4 to 1/3 of the patients and is usually in those who are the most insulin resistant. But it is a short term

transient passing effect that dissapears after another week or two and stays away and then blood sugars improve.. >>but I also have no doubt that carbs are the macronutrient that figures most prominently in glucose excursions... that diabetics put heart and soul into heading off. Maybe in the short term. But what is the effect of increased protein, fat or both, when you lower carb? And on insulin secretion/levels? and on beta cells? and on other risk factors? Soluble fiber is an important issue in modulating blood glucose and insulin levels. If people need more soluble fiber (as most Americans who eat the 55% carb diet, barely get in enough fiber, let alone soluble fiber) where do you propose they get it? they need another 35 grams of fiber, with most of it being soluble. The only place I know is unrfined foods high

in carbs. But as I showed in the last post, the type of carb does matter. Also, remember 50% of DBs die of heart disease. Fiber, especially soluble fiber, lowers the risk for heart disease. According to the work of Linn, who used a diet that was similar to the 40/30/30 (in humans and mice) found out that it had a negative effect on beta cells which increased the risk/rate of DB in the longterm. When you lose your beta cells, the game is over, cause you are now on exogenous insulin. So we have now traded short term appearance of glucose control for insuling dependant DB down the line. Not a trade off I want or will recommend to my patients. jeff Effect of long-term dietary protein intake on glucose metabolism in humans.Linn T, Santosa B, Gronemeyer D, Aygen S, Scholz N, Busch M, Bretzel RG.

Clinical Research Unit, Medical Clinic 3, Giessen, Germany.Diabetologia. 2000 Oct;43(10):1257-65. AIMS/HYPOTHESIS: A meal rich in protein stimulates insulin secretion. Long-term effects of dietary protein on insulin release and glucose metabolism are, however, still not known. Our study focussed on the effect of different protein intake on pancreatic insulin secretion capacity, glycogen turnover and gluconeogenesis. METHODS: Subjects with constant (6 months) dietary protein of 1.87 +/- 0.26 g kg(-1) day(-1) (1.25-2.41) named high protein group and with 0.74 +/- 0.08 (0.57-0.80), normal protein group, were identified by a food questionnaire and were matched (n = 9) according to sex, age and calorie intake. They underwent an intravenous glucose tolerance test and a euglycaemic hyperinsulinaemic clamp with infusion of [6,6-2H2]-glucose combined with indirect calorimetry. To estimate net gluconeogenesis the usual diet was enriched by deuterated water or

U-[13C6]-glucose and breath and plasma were sampled. RESULTS: Glucose-stimulated insulin secretion was increased in the high protein group (516 +/- 45 pmol/l vs 305 +/- 32, p = 0.012) due to reduced glucose threshold of the endocrine beta cells (4.2 +/- 0.5 mmol/l vs 4.9 +/- 0.3, p = 0.031). Endogeneous glucose output was increased by 12% (p = 0.009) at 40 pmol/l plasma insulin in the high protein group, but not at higher insulin concentration whereas overall glucose disposal was reduced. Fasting plasma glucagon was 34% increased in the high protein group (p = 0.038). Fractional gluconeogenesis was increased by 40% in subjects receiving a high protein diet as determined by both methods. CONCLUSION/INTERPRETATION: High protein diet is accompanied by increased stimulation of glucagon and insulin within the endocrine pancreas, high glycogen turnover and stimulation of gluconeogenesis. PMID: 11079744 1: Endocrinology. 1999

Aug;140(8):3767-73.Diet promotes beta-cell loss by apoptosis in prediabetic nonobese diabetic mice.Linn T, Strate C, Schneider K. Medical Clinic III and Policlinic, Justus Liebig University, Giessen, Germany. Diet as an environmental factor influences age of onset in models of spontaneous insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. We reported recently that a protein-rich diet accelerated diabetes incidence in nonobese diabetic (NOD) mice. In the present study, we investigated the effect of diet on beta-cells and glucose metabolism in NOD mice before diabetes onset. Three different diets were maintained from 4 weeks on: low fat (LF; 12% fat, 21% protein, and 68% carbohydrates), high fat (HF; 39% fat, 17% protein, and 43% carbohydrate), and high fat-high protein (HFHP; 43% fat, 38% protein, and 19% carbohydrates) diet. The cumulative incidence of diabetes was 92% for HFHP (P < 0.01 vs. LF), 80% for HF (P = NS), and 65% for the LF cohort. At 20 weeks of age

insulin secretion in the isolated pancreas was doubled for the HF diet and 4.4 times higher for the HFHP-fed mice compared with the LF group. Feeding HF and HFHP reduced total glucose utilization during continuous insulin infusion (1 mU/kg) by 34% (P < 0.05). HFHP, but not HF, diet elevated endogenous glucose production by 48% (P < 0.05) compared with that in the LF group. Beta-cell mass, estimated by imaging analysis, was initially high in young HFHP-fed mice, aged 10 weeks, but declined rapidly thereafter [HFHP, 1.6 +/- 0.2 (P < 0.05 vs. LF); HF, 2.4 +/- 0.4 (P = NS vs. LF); LF, 2.1 +/- 0.5 mg at 30 weeks]. A reduction of beta-cell mass was associated with HF 14% (P < 0.05 vs. LF) and HFHP 82% (P < 0.01 vs. LF) more apoptotic beta-cells at 30 weeks. Depending on age, 1.2-3.1 of 1000 beta-cells were in a stage of proliferation without significant differences among the dietary groups. In conclusion, HFHP diet was associated with impaired glucose metabolism

and high insulin release followed by enhanced diabetes incidence. Diabetes was promoted by increased rate of cell death over beta-cell neogenesis. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1996 Nov;81(11):3938-43. Links Effect of dietary protein intake on insulin secretion and glucose metabolism in insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus.Linn T, Geyer R, Prassek S, Laube H. Diabetology and Metabolism Unit, Justus Liebig University, Giessen, Germany. Adult-onset insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (IDDM) is associated with significant residual insulin secretion. The process leading to the ultimate destruction of B cells may be influenced, among other factors, by the quality and amount of ingested protein. Using a standardized food questionnaire, we matched 13 individuals with normal protein (NP; 0.74 +/- 0.08 g/kg.day) and high protein (HP; 1.87 +/- 0.26 g/kg.day) intake from a sample of 117 newly diagnosed IDDM patients according to sex, age,

body mass index, and energy intake. Nondiabetic control subjects were also selected. Dietary habits did not change significantly over an observation period of 1 yr. Glucagon-stimulated C peptide was significantly higher in the NP compared to the HP group (0.71 +/- 0.06 vs. 0.50 +/- 0.04 nmol/L; P < 0.002). NP food was associated with higher overall insulin sensitivity in both patients and nondiabetic subjects. Hepatic glucose output was significantly increased in individuals with HP intake [HP IDDM, 14.8 +/- 0.6 vs. NP IDDM, 12.7 +/- 0.7 (P < 0.01); HP control, 12.2 +/- 0.5 vs. NP control, 10.9 +/- 0.5 (P < 0.01 mumol/kg.min). Insulin-mediated suppression of hepatic glucose production was impaired in diabetic patients with high protein intake, but not in patients with normal protein diet. Gluconeogenesis estimated from 13C enrichment in breath and plasma was increased in individuals on a HP diet. We conclude that a NP diet is accompanied by delayed progression of

the continuous loss of endogenous insulin in IDDM. This phenomenon is possibly due to decreased insulin demand on the B cells and/or reduced hepatic glucose production favoring enhanced insulin sensitivity.

[Guest guest]

>I acknowledged that the Kempner study was old. I listed it to show that

>this wasnt new

> info.

> But in all fairness, are you going to hang your hat on the " just " one

> study you and Tony > posted?

With regard to diabetics, yes - because it echos my prior belief in the

benefit to diabetics in a low carb diet. I was impressed with the engineer's

approach of Bernstein to the solution of his type1 diabetes; and the

testimonial success of real, live diabetics in a couple of diabetes internet

support groups that deloyed the approach Bernstein developed. Many of these

people had been for years frustrated with the ADA's (high carb) diet and

Bernstein's ideas gave them a new lease.

>>>Do you deny, then, that, among your diabetic clients, if the carb

>>>component

> of their diet was lowered, it would result in further improvement of their

> hyperglycemia?

>

> What is futher improvement? They are already being taken off their

> medications due to the normalization of blood sugars. Their glucose drops

> to the 80s and their HBG A1C drops to under 6. How much better do you

> want them to be?

You're telling me your diabetic clients' fasting glucose dropped from 126+

to 80+. This strains credulity.

Re an a1c below 6, 5 is about normal. Bernstein, a type1 diabetic achieves

4.5% on his diet, but his diet is hard - people have a hard time cleaving to

it strictly.

Your diet is far easier to take, I'd think, and it seems that it virtually

cures diabetes. At the risk of sounding sarcastic, why then does type2

diabetes continue to be a human health scourge when your simple diet all but

eliminates its signs?

>

> Now, sometimes, the blood sugars dont respond as well in some, maybe the

> first week or so. This happens in about 1/4 to 1/3 of the patients and is

> usually in those who are the most insulin resistant. But it is a short

> term transient passing effect that dissapears after another week or two

> and stays away and then blood sugars improve..

>

> >>but I also have no doubt that carbs are the macronutrient that figures

> most

> prominently in glucose excursions... that diabetics put heart and soul

> into

> heading off.

>

> Maybe in the short term. But what is the effect of increased protein, fat

> or both, when you lower carb? And on insulin secretion/levels? and on beta

> cells? and on other risk factors?

What about the toxic effects of the 'short term' hyperglycemia on beta

cells?

> Soluble fiber is an important issue in modulating blood glucose and

> insulin levels. If people need more soluble fiber (as most Americans who

> eat the 55% carb diet, barely get in enough fiber, let alone soluble

> fiber) where do you propose they get it? they need another 35 grams of

> fiber, with most of it being soluble. The only place I know is unrfined

> foods high in carbs. But as I showed in the last post, the type of carb

> does matter.

Metamucil, guar and the like, I'm supposing. But Bernstein asserts that

fiber isn't a necessary dietary element in human nutrition. I hasten to tell

you that I seriously doubt that, but one does wonder how populations like

traditional Inuit aparently thrived on such a diet.

> Also, remember 50% of DBs die of heart disease. Fiber, especially

> soluble fiber, lowers the risk for heart disease.

If a diabetic (like Bernstein) has an a1c of 4.5 and fasting blood glucose

in the 70s, maybe he's no longer diabetic as far as his cardiovascular

system is concerned. He's now about 75, I think.

> According to the work of Linn, who used a diet that was similar to the

> 40/30/30 (in humans and mice) found out that it had a negative effect on

> beta cells which increased the risk/rate of DB in the longterm. When you

> lose your beta cells, the game is over, cause you are now on exogenous

> insulin. So we have now traded short term appearance of glucose control

> for insuling dependant DB down the line.

Again, hyperglycemia is beta cell toxic.

Al

PS - thanks for posting the studies

[Guest guest]

>>Many of these people had been for years frustrated with the ADA's (high carb) diet And righfully so. the ADA diet for DB will do little for you. Its never been shown to be helpful and in my eyes is an atrocity. But just because its recommendations are 55% carb, doesnt condemn every diet that has 55% carb in it (as the study I posted showed)>>You're telling me your diabetic clients' fasting glucose dropped from 126+ to 80+. This strains credulity. Thats OK. But yes. We just published one this year on Metabolic Syndrome and it was a short study but the average blood sugars in under 3 weeks dropped from over 126 to around 100. Given more time, they would have gone lower. >>but his diet is hard - people have a hard time cleaving to it strictly. Your diet is far easier to take, I'd think, and it seems that it

virtually cures diabetes. At the risk of sounding sarcastic, why then does type2 diabetes continue to be a human health scourge when your simple diet all but eliminates its signs? Its not simple. And, as with Bernsteins diet, it takes alot of education, dedication and commitment, something that most people arent willing to do, or can do, even when facing the complications of DB. Discipline is a rare commodity these days. >>What about the toxic effects of the 'short term' hyperglycemia on beta cells? Higher protein also drives up insulin which also damages beta cells. The only nutrient that doesnt drive up insulin is fat, but then we run into other issues. The diet that helps control/reverse DB should cause other health issues. So, I would go for the one that is the healthiest

overall. And, exercise does improve glucose transport dramtically and quickly so that is also an important component. The effect lasts around 24 hrs so most DBs should be active every day. Dont get me wrong.If I had DB, I would do whatever i had to do to get it under control and/or reverse it. And not give up till I found a solution. So, my hats off to anyone putting the effort forward and to those trying to help. But to make a blanket statement about all diets with 55% carb being bad based on one very poor diet (and study) that also happens to have 55% carb, its beyond silly. Its a throwback to the early 70s when all high fat diets (30% or more) were condemned regardless of the composition of the fat and all its relative components. We know in fat that there is SO Much more to the type of fat and its componets. Weknow in protein there is so much

more than just the percentage, but also its componets. Lets not wait thirty years to realize there is more to the picture than just the percentage of carb in a diet. I would be more inclined to say that many of the diseases we see today, are the bodies attempt to deal with the unnatural constant higher protein intake, much higher REFINED carb and sugar intake, and higher saurated, hydrogenated, trans fat, and lower fiber, diets we live on and our inactive lifestyles. Not higher carb RegardsJeff

[Guest guest]

>

>You're telling me your diabetic clients' fasting glucose dropped from 126+

>to 80+. This strains credulity.

A person on a ketogenic diet will always have blood sugar around

70-80 or so, unless they drink enough alcohol to trigger ketoacidosis.

If you're not eating carbs, your blood sugar is regulated by

entirely different pathways than usual -- it's held up by

gluconeogenesis, not pushed down by insulin, glycogen synthesis and all that.

A truly low-carb diet (< 50 g a day) shuts down the metabolic

pathways that are defective in diabetics, and certainly should control

blood sugar. The question is, what are the other effects on health?

[Guest guest]

Thanks, ,

Maybe another question is what fat/oil we use to drop carb intake?

Let's consider something besides the atkins idea, ie, excess animal fat.

Would we use olive oil?

I'm guessing not high LA or ALA oils.

Maybe 50 gms (200 kcals) would not be ideal for most. (my BG is 86)

If I cut my 60% carb diet to 30% what would that do (to everything)?

That'd be ~ swapping for 2 oz olive oil.

Just wondering.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Alzheimer , dementia, and glucose control

>>You're telling me your diabetic clients' fasting glucose dropped from 126+>to 80+. This strains credulity.A person on a ketogenic diet will always have blood sugar around 70-80 or so, unless they drink enough alcohol to trigger ketoacidosis.If you're not eating carbs, your blood sugar is regulated by entirely different pathways than usual -- it's held up by gluconeogenesis, not pushed down by insulin, glycogen synthesis and all that.A truly low-carb diet (< 50 g a day) shuts down the metabolic pathways that are defective in diabetics, and certainly should control blood sugar. The question is, what are the other effects on health?_._,_._

..

[Guest guest]

At 01:19 PM 7/24/2006, you wrote:

Thanks, ,

Maybe another question is what fat/oil we use to drop carb intake?

Let's consider something besides the atkins idea, ie, excess animal

fat.

Would we use olive oil?

I'm guessing not high LA or ALA oils.

Maybe 50 gms (200 kcals) would

not be ideal for most. (my BG is 86)

If I cut my 60% carb diet to 30% what would that do (to everything)?

That'd be ~ swapping for 2 oz olive oil.

Just wondering.

Regards.

Vegetarian

and vegan low carb diets are quite possible, if not

monotonous. Here are a few things you can try:

* avocados

* nuts

* leafy green vegetables (not a lot of energy in them, but the

fiber, vitamins and minerals are all good for you)

* canned black soybeans (incredible amounts of fiber & protein,

almost no carbs)

* tempeh

* seitan

* cottage cheese (non-fat or otherwise)

* lots of olive oil and vinegar on your salads

Quite a

few processed soybean products are low-carb: soy milks, for

instance, vary from about 2g of carbs per serving to about

30g.

I try to

eat canned Alaskan Salmon 2x a week, no matter what else I'm

eating.

It's tough

to end up <50 g of carbs this way, but it is possible.

I've heard

people here say that the " Zone diet " is incompatible with

eating fruits and vegetables... I think that's bunk. When I

was doing a zonish diet (with extra high-glycemic carbs after workouts) I

got almost all of my 40% carbohydrates from fruits and vegetables (only

occasionally had grain or refined sugar...); if you get 40% of your

carbohydrates from fruits and vegetables you'll be eating > 12 USDA

servings of fruits and vegetables a day... More than almost anybody

eats. On paper you can certainly get plenty of fiber, but

I've noticed that I get constipated if I don't eat grain -- even if I'm

getting more than " enough " fiber from black soys, swiss

chard, etc.

[Guest guest]

This blood sugar drop was in response to a particular high carb diet among

diabetics cleints at Jeff Novick's clinic.

>>You're telling me your diabetic clients' fasting glucose dropped from 126+

>>to 80+. This strains credulity.

>

> A person on a ketogenic diet will always have blood sugar around

> 70-80 or so, unless they drink enough alcohol to trigger ketoacidosis.

>

> If you're not eating carbs, your blood sugar is regulated by

> entirely different pathways than usual -- it's held up by

> gluconeogenesis, not pushed down by insulin, glycogen synthesis and all

> that.

>

> A truly low-carb diet (< 50 g a day) shuts down the metabolic

> pathways that are defective in diabetics, and certainly should control

> blood sugar. The question is, what are the other effects on health?

>

>

>

>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Just a few days of higher fat re-enforces my belief that high fat is not for me.

I'll allow it may be useful for those with Type 2, but for hypertensives, something near the DASH is probably better.

Maybe the question is: is it better to eat higher fat and use more medication? Logically, I think not. Does the olive oil, or avocado - same thing, offer something you don't get elsewhere? OO contains phytos, also corn oil (betasitosterol). If those are good is fat the best source?

But most important is the expression of higher BP a good guide to choosing foods?

I think that problem has been worked in the DASH.

There is some confusion in the DASH - I followed the development for several years, before the study was published. My impression was that a vegetarian diet was best. When ' book came out, the preface started with a bent toward a vegetarian diet: "with an emphasis on fruits, vegetables and low fat dairy products...".

Yet by the time I got to the menus, it contained 6 oz meat, plus milk. And ~100 gms protein.

So even that was not the right diet for me. What is it about diets the experts can't get right? Is it because their conclusions are based on averages and there are few average people?

What all these new "diets" do for me is reinforce the opinion I concluded in Mar 2000 - This is something I hafta do myself.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Alzheimer , dementia, and glucose control

At 01:19 PM 7/24/2006, you wrote:

Thanks, ,Maybe another question is what fat/oil we use to drop carb intake?Let's consider something besides the atkins idea, ie, excess animal fat.Would we use olive oil? I'm guessing not high LA or ALA oils. Maybe 50 gms (200 kcals) would not be ideal for most. (my BG is 86)If I cut my 60% carb diet to 30% what would that do (to everything)? That'd be ~ swapping for 2 oz olive oil. Just wondering. Regards.

Vegetarian and vegan low carb diets are quite possible, if not monotonous. Here are a few things you can try:* avocados* nuts* leafy green vegetables (not a lot of energy in them, but the fiber, vitamins and minerals are all good for you)* canned black soybeans (incredible amounts of fiber & protein, almost no carbs)* tempeh* seitan* cottage cheese (non-fat or otherwise)* lots of olive oil and vinegar on your salads Quite a few processed soybean products are low-carb: soy milks, for instance, vary from about 2g of carbs per serving to about 30g. I try to eat canned Alaskan Salmon 2x a week, no matter what else I'm eating. It's tough to end up <50 g of carbs this way, but it is possible. I've heard people here say that the "Zone diet" is incompatible with eating fruits and vegetables... I think that's bunk. When I was doing a zonish diet (with extra high-glycemic carbs after workouts) I got almost all of my 40% carbohydrates from fruits and vegetables (only occasionally had grain or refined sugar...); if you get 40% of your carbohydrates from fruits and vegetables you'll be eating > 12 USDA servings of fruits and vegetables a day... More than almost anybody eats. On paper you can certainly get plenty of fiber, but I've noticed that I get constipated if I don't eat grain -- even if I'm getting more than "enough" fiber from black soys, swiss chard, etc.

[Guest guest]

At 08:47 PM 7/26/2006, you wrote:

Hi ,

Just a few days of higher fat re-enforces my belief that high fat is not

for me.

I'll allow it may be useful for those with Type 2, but for hypertensives,

something near the DASH is probably better.

Maybe the question is: is it better to eat higher fat and use more

medication? Logically, I think not. Does the olive oil, or avocado - same

thing, offer something you don't get elsewhere? OO contains phytos, also

corn oil (betasitosterol). If those are good is fat the best source?

I don't

think there is one simple answer. As for me, I'm not eating a

ketogenic or even a zone diet right now -- I'm not an advocate of low

carb diets, just somebody who's curious about the effects of a

powerful intervention.

Like a lot

of people, I find a ketogenic diet is monotonous and eventually I

start losing interest in food -- the thought of eating an egg or an

advocado or another handful of nuts becomes disgusting; the thought

of eating 1800 whole calories is just nauseating. A low-carb diet

activates many of the metabolic pathways involved in fasting, and

some people believe that this suppresses appetite.

Either a

" low-carb " or a " high-carb " diet can be good food or

junk. You can get fat from hamburger, avocados or

Crisco. You can get carbohydrates from bananas

or blueberries, or you can mainline refined white sugar. A

" low carb " diet can certainly have much more

" fiber " , as measured by the FDA, than the average

American gets, and an American can easily eat a " high

carb " diet that's devoid of fiber.

There

certainly have been cases of people who have seen heart disease risk

factors improve from going to ketogenic and zone diets -- and also cases

of people who've had BP, triglyceride and LDL levels go through the

roof. There certainly are success stories for people cutting back

on fat and switching to quality carbohydrates.

The moral

is to monitor the results of what you do.

But most important is the

expression of higher BP a good guide to choosing

foods?

If you

have high blood pressure, I think it is.

Ketosis

has a diuretic effect, and some people observe dramatic drops in BP

when they stop eating carbohydrates. Some people have their BP go

up: blood pressure involves many regulatory systems that interlock:

for instance, when you experience stress and your sympathetic

nervous system kicks in, your pulse and cardiac output volume goes

up. Your blood vessels are also supposed to dilate to accept the

increased output -- if they do, you won't experience a big BP

increase, but if they don't, you will.

I think that problem has been

worked in the DASH.

There is some confusion in the DASH - I followed the development for

several years, before the study was published. My impression was that a

vegetarian diet was best. When ' book came out, the preface started

with a bent toward a vegetarian diet: " with an emphasis on fruits,

vegetables and low fat dairy products... " .

Yet by the time I got to the menus, it contained 6 oz meat, plus

milk. And ~100 gms protein.

It's not

easy to sell vegetarianism. A lot of people think they can't live

without meat. When I was a vegetarian in graduate school, I

always had Asians shaking their heads at me, as, in their

minds, a vegetarian diet is a sign of poverty. To make

matters worse, you have these entrenched cultures that engage in

holy wars: PETA vs the dairy council. I eat meat socially now

-- it's often the best thing that my extended family has at a

party; I have to say that I'm not excited by commercial meat:

I find it as insipid as my carnivorous friends find tofu.

[Guest guest]

At one time I said I would eat no more meat - that I found easy to do. Also, most is soaked in salts, et al, preservatives.

Going without milk was the problem - a main protein source. And I've tried to minimize that to cut the D3. But yogurt 3x is too much. Actually thinking about finding fresh milk somewhere.

And I found problems with certain foods like dried beans, cabbage, eg, supposedly "healthy foods". This may have something to do with age/ digestive tract.

One of our favorite meals now is a stew of immature black-eyed peas, canned garlic tomatoes, and okra.

I've just about dumped all lettuce unless I cook it. We simply get too much reaction from salad greens, packaged or not - the bugs or maybe the stuff they soak it in?

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Alzheimer , dementia, and glucose control

It's not easy to sell vegetarianism. A lot of people think they can't live without meat. When I was a vegetarian in graduate school, I always had Asians shaking their heads at me, as, in their minds, a vegetarian diet is a sign of poverty. To make matters worse, you have these entrenched cultures that engage in holy wars: PETA vs the dairy council. I eat meat socially now -- it's often the best thing that my extended family has at a party; I have to say that I'm not excited by commercial meat: I find it as insipid as my carnivorous friends find tofu.

..

[Guest guest]

I believe the lettuce I'm getting whether lose, store packaged or restaurant is not safe.

What I do to fresh basil is wash it in water then vinegar, when I make pesto and that seems to work.

It may be lettuce needs to be deep fried(ha).

Fruit doesn't seem to be a problem - maybe the acids prevent the bacteria.

Maybe the handling of lettuce spreads bacteria, but I can tell you for sure, lettuce is becoming less important to my diet.

I think they soak it in stuff to keep it looking fresh.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Alzheimer , dementia, and glucose control

JW,Have you tried adding some vinegar (or vinaigrette dressing) to yourlettuce? The acetic acid in the vinegar will kill bacteria withouthaving to cook the lettuce.Tony> I've just about dumped all lettuce unless I cook it. We simply gettoo much reaction from salad greens, packaged or not - the bugs ormaybe the stuff they soak it in?>

..