Re: mouth gums in bad shape

[Guest guest]

After you brush, rinse and brush your teeth with Listerine. Then, after

having already brushed, wet your floss with the Listerine from your mouth

and floss with it assiduously. Then brush again with Listerine.

I've been doing this for four years, and each year, my

" pockets " get smaller.

Maco

p.s.--then buy stock in whoever makes Listerine.

;-)

At 11:38 AM 1/8/2007, you wrote:

I just got back from the

dentist. He claims that my gums are in bad shape;

that I have lost bone etc. He wants to do some sort of gum surgery

and

pronto. I don't like being rushed into anything so i decided to do

some

research first.

Anybody have any suggetions for gum health?

I read somewhere that cranberries are good for the gums, but it was in

a

magazine article and not from a reputable source.

[Guest guest]

Old age??? I'm researching on the web right now. The only toothpaste I see that's approved for this by the FDA is Colgate Total (not Colgate gel-cam) which contains something called Triclocin but it could be that the article I'm reading is old (it's undated). There's also a prescription rinse called Chlorhexidine rinse that I guess I could ask my doc for. If there is something on the web more up-to-date, perhaps someone can post it?

My diet is typical of a CRONIE so like you I don't eat sugar or syrupy stuff (or very little anyway). Gum disease can run in families and I would guess that heredity is the cause of mine. Nevertheless i would like to avoid gum surgery which my dentist is pushing. And i don't like being pushed. I would rather be conservative.

on 1/8/2007 2:17 PM, jwwright at jwwright@... wrote:

What in your diet might lead to gum disease, do you think? we don't use sugar or corn syrup.

Also, you might get a second opinion.

[ ] mouth gums in bad shape

I just got back from the dentist. He claims that my gums are in bad shape;

that I have lost bone etc. He wants to do some sort of gum surgery and

pronto. I don't like being rushed into anything so i decided to do some

research first.

Anybody have any suggetions for gum health?

I read somewhere that cranberries are good for the gums, but it was in a

magazine article and not from a reputable source.

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[Guest guest]

Maco; i assume by Listerine, you mean any mouthwash that destroys bacteria? I usually use the " house " brand; but of course I'll switch to Listerine if you think there's some merit in it. Next time I'm at the store, I'll compare ingredients. Usually they're all the same ingredients in the different mouthwashes.

on 1/8/2007 2:27 PM, Maco at mstewart@... wrote:

After you brush, rinse and brush your teeth with Listerine. Then, after having already brushed, wet your floss with the Listerine from your mouth and floss with it assiduously. Then brush again with Listerine.

I've been doing this for four years, and each year, my " pockets " get smaller.

Maco

p.s.--then buy stock in whoever makes Listerine.

;-)

At 11:38 AM 1/8/2007, you wrote:

I just got back from the dentist. He claims that my gums are in bad shape;

that I have lost bone etc. He wants to do some sort of gum surgery and

pronto. I don't like being rushed into anything so i decided to do some

research first.

Anybody have any suggetions for gum health?

I read somewhere that cranberries are good for the gums, but it was in a

magazine article and not from a reputable source.

[Guest guest]

At 12:41 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote:

Maco; i assume by

Listerine, you mean any mouthwash that destroys bacteria?

So one would imagine, but this one mouse has only used Listerine, so I

cited it.

I usually use the

" house " brand; but of course I'll switch to Listerine if you

think there's some merit in it.

I have no idea; just sharing what I do. I'm sure the scientific thing is

to just get the same ingredients in a cheaper generic

formulation.

Me, I'm stickin' with Listerine.

Next time I'm at the store, I'll

compare ingredients. Usually they're all the same ingredients in

the different mouthwashes.

Indeed.

I just like the orange citrus, I think it is, flavor, I confess, and the

alternatives have tasted yuckky to me (technical term, that: yuckky =

unappealing to the sense of taste).

;-)

Maco

on 1/8/2007 2:27 PM, Maco

at mstewart@... wrote:

After you brush, rinse and brush your teeth with Listerine. Then,

after having already brushed, wet your floss with the Listerine from your

mouth and floss with it assiduously. Then brush again with

Listerine.

I've been doing this for four years, and each year, my

" pockets " get smaller.

Maco

p.s.--then buy stock in whoever makes Listerine.

;-)

At 11:38 AM 1/8/2007, you wrote:

I just got back from the dentist. He claims that my gums are in bad

shape;

that I have lost bone etc. He wants to do some sort of gum surgery

and

pronto. I don't like being rushed into anything so i decided to do

some

research first.

Anybody have any suggetions for gum health?

I read somewhere that cranberries are good for the gums, but it was

in a

magazine article and not from a reputable source.

[Guest guest]

Sorry to hear about dental issues. I am a little apprehensive about interfering too dramatically with the local bio-system but there is definitely good and bad bacteria living in our mouth. Every time we kill off everything it's a horse race for the good bacteria to reestablish.Another issue with gum health is we have poor local blood circulation, other wise tooth decay would probably be squashed by our immune system. Brushing stimulates blood flow in the gums so helps healing, flossing is useful especially with tight teeth to remove food sources that support excessive bacteria growth. I have become addicted to use of a small curved metal pick which I find better than flossing for cleaning between teeth. I also have some plastic tooth picks that work better than wood for cleaning between teeth.Dentists and oral surgeons are of course inclined to cut first as most customers expect instant relief and lack discipline. I agree with your inclination to attempt self help first.For a little more "out there" natural strategy, I have even experimented with raw garlic to deal with a sensitive tooth. While it may have just been a coincidental spontaneous remission, it seemed to work.CAVEAT... I have no formal expertise or scientific basis so take all of my suggestions with a grain of salt (clove of garlic?).  Good luck, teeth are useful.JROn Jan 8, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Francesca Skelton wrote:Maco;  i assume by Listerine, you mean any mouthwash that destroys bacteria?  I usually use the "house" brand; but of course I'll switch to Listerine if you think there's some merit in it.  Next time I'm at the store, I'll compare ingredients.  Usually they're all the same ingredients in the different mouthwashes.

[Guest guest]

The stuff I use I got from the dentist and it's Gel-Kam.

It's not for everyday. It's 0.4% stannous fluoride.

I also carry plastic toothpicks which I use all the time to get stuff out and poke into those sensitive areas.

If you lose too much bone, they won't do an implant, although they can build up the bone if it's just a local thing.

I also use a mouth wash to "help prevent plaque, gingivitis and tartar buildup". It contains thymol, eucalyptus, methyl salicylate and menthol.

Maintaining 28 teeth at 71 ain't easy but I don't have any problems.

I drink a lot of coffee - not much tea.

Regards

Re: [ ] mouth gums in bad shapeI floss and brush every night. I don't see how a fluoride gel (there are many types n the market will help.on 1/8/2007 1:53 PM, jwwright at jwwrighteastex (DOT) net wrote:

Flossing, brushing then brush with Colgate gel-kam ( a fluoride gel)..regards.

..

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca ~

Since childhood, I have had bad teeth and gums. I grew up in the pre-fluoridated

water era (does anyone else remember that fluoride in the water is some sort of

communist plot? does anyone know how/why this might be?) and have had many

cavities, bad gums, and orthodontics. Yucki!

Most recently, I have begun a course of treatment with the dental hygenist for

" Perio scaling and root planing. " What this means is that she pushes sharp

probes under my gums to scrape off any bacteria that has adhered to the roots.

The dentist assures me that the result will be healthy gums adhering to the

roots of my teeth. All I have to do is endure the pain of having my gums probed

with sharp metal implements and the resulting bleeding. Yuck!!

I hope that you have a dentist whose judgment you trust. I put myself

(literally) in his hands with the hope that he knows what is best for my oral

health. He has worked on my teeth for close to 20 years, done several root

canals, crowns, etc.

It's not pretty, but unlike my parents' generation, I don't take my teeth out at

night and put them in a glass! lol

Good luck,

Mark

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...>

> I just got back from the dentist. He claims that my gums are in bad shape;

> that I have lost bone etc. He wants to do some sort of gum surgery and

> pronto. I don't like being rushed into anything so i decided to do some

> research first.

>

> Anybody have any suggetions for gum health?

>

> I read somewhere that cranberries are good for the gums, but it was in a

> magazine article and not from a reputable source.

I just got back from the dentist. He claims that my gums are in bad shape;

that I have lost bone etc. He wants to do some sort of gum surgery and

pronto. I don't like being rushed into anything so i decided to do some

research first.

Anybody have any suggetions for gum health?

I read somewhere that cranberries are good for the gums, but it was in a

magazine article and not from a reputable source.

[Guest guest]

I found some old Gel-Kam that I had. Here's what it says:

" Gel-Kam has been accepted as an effective decay preventive home use flouride gel..........blah blah blah. Clinical effectiveness against....... plaque, gingivitis or other peridontal indications has not been proven. "

on 1/8/2007 3:41 PM, jwwright at jwwright@... wrote:

The stuff I use I got from the dentist and it's Gel-Kam.

It's not for everyday. It's 0.4% stannous fluoride.

[Guest guest]

Francesca,

Your note did not say whether your loss of bone in the gums is due to

periodontal disease or to loss of mineralization like osteoporosis.

Some time back I wrote a web page on oral hygiene:

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/health/teeth.html

If your loss of bone is due to osteoporosis, you need to make sure

that you have adequate consumption of protein, vitamin D, calcium, and

magnesium. You cannot hope to stabilize the bone in your gums if your

body is losing bone mass. That has to be the first priority.

If the doctor suspects that periodontal disease is the cause of the

loss of bone, then killing bad bacteria and establishing good bacteria

should be a priority. I don't know what your doctor hopes to

accomplish with surgery, but you may want to get a second opinion to

make sure that 1) the diagnosis is correct, and 2) that surgery is

indicated and preferred over dietary or prophylactic interventions.

As was already mentioned, the mouth has many types of bacteria and

there are some good ones and some bad ones. You can never kill them

all. If you kill the good ones, you are in trouble. The tongue has a

very high surface area which is always coated with a white layer of

" good " bacteria. These bacteria prevent strep throat and other types

of bad bacteria from getting established.

There are basically two types of mouthwashes in the drug stores. The

alcohol based ones (21% alcohol, eucalyptol, menthol, methyl

salicylate, and thymol) like Listerine are imitated by CVS, RiteAid,

and Giant. They are all very similar. Listerine Whitening mouthwash

(in a white container) has 8% alcohol, and hydrogen peroxide as

ingredients.

Most of the bad bacteria are anaerobic and tend to live under plaque

and below the gum line. The suggestion to brush, then rise with

mouthwash, and floss with a piece of floss that has been soaked in

mouthwash was good. This will kill bacteria below the gum line. I

think that the Listerine Whitening mouthwash is good for this because

of its foaming action, which aids in floating out debris between the

teeth and gums.

It would help to know about your overall bone health. Have you had

any bone density tests?

Tony

>

> I just got back from the dentist. He claims that my gums are in bad

shape;

> that I have lost bone etc. He wants to do some sort of gum surgery and

> pronto. I don't like being rushed into anything so i decided to do some

> research first.

>

> Anybody have any suggetions for gum health?

>

> I read somewhere that cranberries are good for the gums, but it was in a

> magazine article and not from a reputable source.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Plenty of interesting and helpful suggestions here. Thanks

everyone.

But does anyone know of any *studies* ........ that have taken

different approaches with oral hygiene and measured results in

experimental groups versus a control group?

I do not wish to offend any here who may be involved in the dental

profession, but I have been very unimpressed with all aspects of the

dental care I have encountered. And as regards this particular

thread I have seen on more than one occasion dental hygienists do 180

degree turns about the advice they have given me, with an open

acknowledgment in one of those cases that: " sorry, yes, what we were

previously telling you to do was wrong, but take our word for it we

have gotten it right now. " Since which the advice has, of course,

changed again.

So is there any science behind this? And if there is where can we

find it? Some years ago I phoned the local dental association and

asked, and they were no use at all. Or are we still in the 'old

wives tales' stage of technology in this field?

I could repeat here some of the things I have been told to do. But I

really have no idea whether they are beneficial or harmful. So I

would not wish to inflict them on anyone else.

Rodney.

>

> It would help to know about your overall bone health. Have you had

> any bone density tests?

>

> Tony

>

[Guest guest]

Treatment of periodontal disease continues to be probematic despite

advances in treatment and diagnosis. I agree with many of the points

several have mentioned here but I feel certain issues deserve some

clarification. I will just list them in random order here as they

come to mind. One should get a second opinion if there is any doubt

about a procedure. A consultation from a periodontist, a dentist

that specializes in gum disease is highly recommended. Surgery may

be recommended as it is the only sure means to reduce pocket depth

around the teeth. It becomes impossible to eliminate harmful

bacteria in 5-7 mm pockets with home oral health care procedures.

Thus the need for pocket reduction surgery. Using a tongue scraper

to clean the tongue as part of daily oral hygiene is recommended.

Harmful periodontal pathogens also inhabit the tongue (not

just " good " bacteria). Oral pathologists and now most periodontists

recommend the use of non-volatile mouthwashes as they are seeing non-

malignant changes in the mucosal tissues as a result. Studies of

electric brushes such as Sonicare or Oral B Braun show greater

plaque removal. Waterpik is an effective adjunct to home care for

the perio patient. Adding mouthwash to the machine likely provides

little if any advantage. The sulcular area is small and the liquid

is quickly diminished by the flow of saliva and low potency of the

additive itself. Also, if you direct the stream up into the sulcus

or any gum area you must use the special perio irrigation tip, not

the regular tip or you may create further damage. Use warm water. It

is thought to have a therapeutic effect. The prescription rinse,

Peridex should not be used long term as a mouthwash. Some

periodontists believe that resident bacteria may selectively survive

that are resistant to the effects of the chlorhexidine gluconate (as

in antibiotic resistance also). Being in this forum, it is probably

unlikely that anyone smokes, but if so, quitting has a very positve

effect in decreasing the severity of perio disease. Gum disease is

episodic. That is, it advances and then may plateau for 3-7 years,

then the process repeats. This is what makes it such an insidious

disease. It is slow, periodic, and relatively painless. Just my

professional opinon. (Orban's Periodontics:Grant, Stern, Everett;

Periodontolgy:J.D. Strahan, I.M. White; selected lectures of S.N.

Bhaskar, et. al.)

[Guest guest]

All

I have been following Maco's regime for a year and the pockets in my

gums diminished, except for around two teeth in the back that are

more stubborn. Her remedy works for me, however, the dental

hygenist has increase my cleanings to three times a year.

Sorry Rodney, this is a one rat experiment.

Cheers

Arturo

Re: mouth gums in bad shape

Posted by: " Francesca Skelton " fskelton@... fskelton2002

Mon Jan 8, 2007 6:31 pm (PST)

No answers for you Rod, however I have some new suggestions from my son who

has had gum problems for some years.

First of all he suggested I switch dentists because my dentist was vague and

evasive which was certainly unnecessary and a bit scary (and I agree with

that). I am going to make an appt with the dentist that my son Brad

recommended. Then Brad suggested that toothpastes and even most mouthwashes

will not reach into the infected deep pockets. He suggested a water pic

which is something that he has been using. A good mouthwash can then be

inserted into the water pic to successfully irrigate down into the infected

pockets.

I told him about Maco's regimen and he thought that Maco might be doing a

sort of " home remedy " scaling procedure (such as suggested by Mark). My son

Brad was impressed with it and is going to try Maco's procedure himself.

The actual scaling procedure by the dentist, is something that Brad has had

done several times in the past and it is likely that is what I will need

done (although I have no idea why my dentist couldn't tell me that in the

first place).

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Ron Corselli " <rcors>

wrote:

>

[...snip...]

> Oral pathologists and now most periodontists

> recommend the use of non-volatile mouthwashes as they are seeing non-

> malignant changes in the mucosal tissues as a result.

[...snip...]

Could you please elaborate on " non-volatile " as it pertains

to mouthwashes? Do you mean those not containing alcohol?

Thanks,

-

[Guest guest]

At 03:30 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote:

>Hi Francesca ~

>

>Since childhood, I have had bad teeth and gums. I grew up in the

>pre-fluoridated water era (does anyone else remember that fluoride in the

>water is some sort of communist plot? does anyone know how/why this might be?)

Fluoride is a toxin; the theory was that aluminum producers needed a place

to dump their extracted fluoride, I think, and they bamboozled

municipalities into buying it from them. The idea is that although it's

good for teeth, it ain't necessarily that good for the rest of the bod.

>and have had many cavities, bad gums, and orthodontics. Yucki!

Have faith in the Backman Treatment that I elucidated (named after my

mother, who steered me toward the routine), and go forth an prosper. Or, in

our CRON context, Live Long and Prosper.

;-)

>Most recently, I have begun a course of treatment with the dental hygenist

>for " Perio scaling and root planing. " What this means is that she pushes

>sharp probes under my gums to scrape off any bacteria that has adhered to

>the roots. The dentist assures me that the result will be healthy gums

>adhering to the roots of my teeth. All I have to do is endure the pain of

>having my gums probed with sharp metal implements and the resulting

>bleeding. Yuck!!

I was offered that, too, but no longer need it. What _is_ useful, in my

experience, is the treatment for quite-deep pockets wherein a local

antibiotic is inserted into the pocket; that seems to help a good deal, too.

Maco

[Guest guest]

>I just got back from the dentist. He claims that my

gums are in bad shape; that I have lost bone etc. He wants to do some sort of

gum surgery and

>pronto. I don't like being rushed into anything so i decided to do some research

first.

>Anybody have any suggestions for gum health?

>I read somewhere that cranberries are good for the gums, but it was in a magazine

article and not from a reputable source.

First, I’m sorry you are experiencing some problems

with your gums. I think you mentioned in another message that your son

suggested you get a second opinion. I would definitely do that too.

My old dentist had recommended I see a periodontist and I had

just switched to a new dentist. When I told the new dentist I was

supposed to go see a periodontist but hadn’t done it yet, he said “you

don’t need to see periodontist”. My new dentist said

that he referred quite a few people to see periodontists but that I definitely

didn’t need to, so that was a big relief.

Second, with so many knowledgeable people here, I’m

surprised no one has mentioned CoQ10 for gum health, probably everyone hasn’t

had a chance to respond yet though. I first heard about it myself on

an email group for people with Felv cats (feline leukemia) as they are prone to

gum disease among many other ailments unfortunately. The

people on the list had to do their own research because some vets aren’t that

knowledgeable or even interested in treating felv cats.

Anyway, I have tried CoQ10 myself as there is one area in

my mouth that I occasionally have problems with (I’m not as diligent

about flossing as I should be). A few days after taking the CoQ10, any

pain I have in that particular area disappears. There are quite a

few sources for CoQ10 products on the web. I will email mine to you

privately in case you want to check it out since I’m affiliated with

company and don’t want to annoy the list with it.

This was the best info I could find re benefits of CoQ10:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/coenzyme-q10/NS_patient-coenzymeq10

All the other articles I found seem to be ads for people

selling CoQ10, maybe someone else can find some other articles.

Cranberry juice could be beneficial because of its Vitamin

C and antioxidant properties. I don’t have any sources

though. I buy R.W. Knudsen’s “Just Cranberrry”

juice. I dilute it with water and sweeten it with Stevia.

I use one cup juice to five cups of water – this works out to about 16

calories per

8 ounces. I also like to buy the Just

Blueberry and the Just Pomegranate juices too and mix 1/3 cup of the three to

five cups of water for the synergistic benefit. This is about 18-20

calories per 8 ounces.

Adult Oral B toothbrushes (Soft) are good

brushes. I like to combine these with an electric toothbrush

too. I just don’t feel like I get my teeth clean enough without

one. The Oral B’s are gentler around the gum

area. Always brush the roof of your mouth and your tongue

too.

Kathy W

[Guest guest]

>

> >I j

>

> Anyway, I have tried CoQ10 myself as there is one area in my mouth

that I occasionally have problems with (I¹m not as diligent about

flossing as I should be). A few days after taking the CoQ10, any

pain I have in that particular area disappears. There are quite a

few sources for CoQ10 products on the web. I will email mine to you

privately in case you want to check it out since I¹m affiliated with

company and don¹t want to annoy the list with it.

>

>> This was the best info I could find re benefits of CoQ10:

>

> http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/coenzyme-q10/NS_patient-coenzymeq10

>

Sorry about that, that was the only article I could find that looked

reputable and wasn't just anecdotal or by a holistic source. I didn't

think it sounded as negative as you put it though. There may be

others out there and I will try and find some later and post if I find

any. Right now I have to get ready for my Girl Scout meeting this

afternoon though.

Kathy W

[Guest guest]

It's been awhile since I reviewed those studies but they did pertain

primarily to those containing alcohol. However, among the conclusions

was it was best to stay with those that are water based. I can

reference those articles if you need further details. Common sense,

which of course has little place in public practice, would dictate

avoidance of anything that makes your mouth burn. Got Listerine?!