Re: percentage of leukemic cells vs healthy cells-Marcos

[Guest guest]

I

> have also read that the fraction of ph+ cells in the peripheral

blood

> is a good representation of the fraction in the bone marrow, or they

> probably wouldn't use PCR from the blood.

From the

>>>>

From the 20/20 of

> the BMB and the 100/100 of the FISH, the probability that there are

> less than 95% of ph+ cells in the area they sampled is low. And it

> gets extremely low for below 90%.

************************************************************

Hi Marcos,

It took some digging but I finally found a link. According to Dr.

Mauro of OHSU (Dr. Druker's esteemed colleague) we have between

10^11 and 10^12 leukemic cells in us when we're diagnosed. For those

who are mathematically challenged like myself, 10^12 is one trillion.

http://tinyurl.com/28emoc

I tried to find a credible link that showed how many cells we have in

total and I got sites that said anything from 5 trillion to 100

trillion so I can't say with any certainty what percentage 10^11 or

10^12 would be, but I can say that it's far less than 95% of our

total cells.

As for why they choose to do PCR testing from peripheral blood, it

has more to do with number of cells they can analyze than it does how

closely the sample resembles the marrow (although they do seem to

correlate).

A draw of peripheral blood can remove many more dividing blood cells

than a marrow draw can and it's far less invasive to do a peripheral

blood draw. When we're expected to be tested every 3 months, it

would seem almost barbaric to do marrow draws that often over the

course of a lifetime (although the unfortunate souls who have been in

clinical trials over the years have been subjected to marrow draws

every 3 months).

Take care,

Tracey

[Guest guest]

Here you are comparing apples and oranges

100 trillions is approximately the total number of cells in the human

body, not the total number of blood stem cells (hematopoietic stem

cells or HSC). Only HSC with ph+ translocation are cml cells (but for

a small percentage of patient who have a ph- cml). Skin, bone, and

other stem cells do not become leukemic. Neither all the other cells

in the body that are not stem cells.

When I refer to the fraction of ph+ cell in my body I am referring to the ratio

(number of ph+ HSC) / (total number of HSC)

What all these test try to estimate is, among the cells that are

susceptible to be ph+, how many are. When a BMB, a FISH or a PCR is

performed, only HSC are studied.

I think (can't check it right now) that 1/100000 cell in the blood is

an HSC, and something like 1/15000 in the bone marrow. But the

proportion (ph+ HSC) / (normal HSC) is I think considered to be about

the same in blood and bone marrow.

Marcos.

On 6/8/07, Tracey <traceyincanada@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I

> > have also read that the fraction of ph+ cells in the peripheral

> blood

> > is a good representation of the fraction in the bone marrow, or they

> > probably wouldn't use PCR from the blood.

> From the

>

> >>>>

>

> From the 20/20 of

> > the BMB and the 100/100 of the FISH, the probability that there are

> > less than 95% of ph+ cells in the area they sampled is low. And it

> > gets extremely low for below 90%.

>

> ************************************************************

>

> Hi Marcos,

>

> It took some digging but I finally found a link. According to Dr.

> Mauro of OHSU (Dr. Druker's esteemed colleague) we have between

> 10^11 and 10^12 leukemic cells in us when we're diagnosed. For those

> who are mathematically challenged like myself, 10^12 is one trillion.

> http://tinyurl.com/28emoc

>

> I tried to find a credible link that showed how many cells we have in

> total and I got sites that said anything from 5 trillion to 100

> trillion so I can't say with any certainty what percentage 10^11 or

> 10^12 would be, but I can say that it's far less than 95% of our

> total cells.

>

> As for why they choose to do PCR testing from peripheral blood, it

> has more to do with number of cells they can analyze than it does how

> closely the sample resembles the marrow (although they do seem to

> correlate).

>

> A draw of peripheral blood can remove many more dividing blood cells

> than a marrow draw can and it's far less invasive to do a peripheral

> blood draw. When we're expected to be tested every 3 months, it

> would seem almost barbaric to do marrow draws that often over the

> course of a lifetime (although the unfortunate souls who have been in

> clinical trials over the years have been subjected to marrow draws

> every 3 months).

>

> Take care,

> Tracey

>

>

--

Marcos Perreau Guimaraes

Suppes Brain Lab

Ventura Hall - CSLI

Stanford University

220 Panama street

Stanford CA 94305-4101

650 329 9920 x 305

650 630 5015 (cell)

marcospg@...

montereyunderwater@...

www.stanford.edu/~marcospg/

[Guest guest]

Forgot to thank you for the link, I don't think I have read this one.

May even print it for my local hemato

Marcos.

[Guest guest]

Hi Marcos,

Yes you're right, not all cells are blood cells. I've heard one of

the experts refer to the number of blood cells in our body as being

in the neighbourhood of 3 trillion but I couldn't find a link for it

so I didn't quote it in my earlier post.

If this is the case, then 1 trillion cells at diagnosis compared to a

total of 3 trillion in the body, does not come close to being 95%

right? Am I missing something here?

Tracey

> > I

> > > have also read that the fraction of ph+ cells in the peripheral

> > blood

> > > is a good representation of the fraction in the bone marrow, or

they

> > > probably wouldn't use PCR from the blood.

> > From the

> >

> > >>>>

> >

> > From the 20/20 of

> > > the BMB and the 100/100 of the FISH, the probability that there

are

> > > less than 95% of ph+ cells in the area they sampled is low. And

it

> > > gets extremely low for below 90%.

> >

> > ************************************************************

> >

> > Hi Marcos,

> >

> > It took some digging but I finally found a link. According to Dr.

> > Mauro of OHSU (Dr. Druker's esteemed colleague) we have between

> > 10^11 and 10^12 leukemic cells in us when we're diagnosed. For

those

> > who are mathematically challenged like myself, 10^12 is one

trillion.

> > http://tinyurl.com/28emoc

> >

> > I tried to find a credible link that showed how many cells we

have in

> > total and I got sites that said anything from 5 trillion to 100

> > trillion so I can't say with any certainty what percentage 10^11

or

> > 10^12 would be, but I can say that it's far less than 95% of our

> > total cells.

> >

> > As for why they choose to do PCR testing from peripheral blood, it

> > has more to do with number of cells they can analyze than it does

how

> > closely the sample resembles the marrow (although they do seem to

> > correlate).

> >

> > A draw of peripheral blood can remove many more dividing blood

cells

> > than a marrow draw can and it's far less invasive to do a

peripheral

> > blood draw. When we're expected to be tested every 3 months, it

> > would seem almost barbaric to do marrow draws that often over the

> > course of a lifetime (although the unfortunate souls who have

been in

> > clinical trials over the years have been subjected to marrow draws

> > every 3 months).

> >

> > Take care,

> > Tracey

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Marcos Perreau Guimaraes

> Suppes Brain Lab

> Ventura Hall - CSLI

> Stanford University

> 220 Panama street

> Stanford CA 94305-4101

> 650 329 9920 x 305

> 650 630 5015 (cell)

> marcospg@...

> montereyunderwater@...

> www.stanford.edu/~marcospg/

>

[Guest guest]

The number of blood cells has been estimated at 1 trillion.

________________________________

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

Tracey

Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 4:47 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: percentage of leukemic cells vs healthy

cells-Marcos

Hi Marcos,

Yes you're right, not all cells are blood cells. I've heard one of

the experts refer to the number of blood cells in our body as being

in the neighbourhood of 3 trillion but I couldn't find a link for it

so I didn't quote it in my earlier post.

If this is the case, then 1 trillion cells at diagnosis compared to a

total of 3 trillion in the body, does not come close to being 95%

right? Am I missing something here?

Tracey

> > I

> > > have also read that the fraction of ph+ cells in the peripheral

> > blood

> > > is a good representation of the fraction in the bone marrow, or

they

> > > probably wouldn't use PCR from the blood.

> > From the

> >

> > >>>>

> >

> > From the 20/20 of

> > > the BMB and the 100/100 of the FISH, the probability that there

are

> > > less than 95% of ph+ cells in the area they sampled is low. And

it

> > > gets extremely low for below 90%.

> >

> > ************************************************************

> >

> > Hi Marcos,

> >

> > It took some digging but I finally found a link. According to Dr.

> > Mauro of OHSU (Dr. Druker's esteemed colleague) we have between

> > 10^11 and 10^12 leukemic cells in us when we're diagnosed. For

those

> > who are mathematically challenged like myself, 10^12 is one

trillion.

> > http://tinyurl.com/28emoc <http://tinyurl.com/28emoc>

> >

> > I tried to find a credible link that showed how many cells we

have in

> > total and I got sites that said anything from 5 trillion to 100

> > trillion so I can't say with any certainty what percentage 10^11

or

> > 10^12 would be, but I can say that it's far less than 95% of our

> > total cells.

> >

> > As for why they choose to do PCR testing from peripheral blood, it

> > has more to do with number of cells they can analyze than it does

how

> > closely the sample resembles the marrow (although they do seem to

> > correlate).

> >

> > A draw of peripheral blood can remove many more dividing blood

cells

> > than a marrow draw can and it's far less invasive to do a

peripheral

> > blood draw. When we're expected to be tested every 3 months, it

> > would seem almost barbaric to do marrow draws that often over the

> > course of a lifetime (although the unfortunate souls who have

been in

> > clinical trials over the years have been subjected to marrow draws

> > every 3 months).

> >

> > Take care,

> > Tracey

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Marcos Perreau Guimaraes

> Suppes Brain Lab

> Ventura Hall - CSLI

> Stanford University

> 220 Panama street

> Stanford CA 94305-4101

> 650 329 9920 x 305

> 650 630 5015 (cell)

> marcospg@...

> montereyunderwater@...

> www.stanford.edu/~marcospg/

>

-----------------------------------------

This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of

the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and

confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended

recipient or an authorized representative of the intended

recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this

communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this

communication in error, notify the sender immediately by return

email and delete the message and any attachments from your system.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Can you give a link that shows this?

Tracey

> > > I

> > > > have also read that the fraction of ph+ cells in the

peripheral

> > > blood

> > > > is a good representation of the fraction in the bone marrow,

or

> they

> > > > probably wouldn't use PCR from the blood.

> > > From the

> > >

> > > >>>>

> > >

> > > From the 20/20 of

> > > > the BMB and the 100/100 of the FISH, the probability that

there

> are

> > > > less than 95% of ph+ cells in the area they sampled is low.

And

> it

> > > > gets extremely low for below 90%.

> > >

> > > ************************************************************

> > >

> > > Hi Marcos,

> > >

> > > It took some digging but I finally found a link. According to

Dr.

> > > Mauro of OHSU (Dr. Druker's esteemed colleague) we have between

> > > 10^11 and 10^12 leukemic cells in us when we're diagnosed. For

> those

> > > who are mathematically challenged like myself, 10^12 is one

> trillion.

> > > http://tinyurl.com/28emoc <http://tinyurl.com/28emoc>

> > >

> > > I tried to find a credible link that showed how many cells we

> have in

> > > total and I got sites that said anything from 5 trillion to 100

> > > trillion so I can't say with any certainty what percentage

10^11

> or

> > > 10^12 would be, but I can say that it's far less than 95% of our

> > > total cells.

> > >

> > > As for why they choose to do PCR testing from peripheral blood,

it

> > > has more to do with number of cells they can analyze than it

does

> how

> > > closely the sample resembles the marrow (although they do seem

to

> > > correlate).

> > >

> > > A draw of peripheral blood can remove many more dividing blood

> cells

> > > than a marrow draw can and it's far less invasive to do a

> peripheral

> > > blood draw. When we're expected to be tested every 3 months, it

> > > would seem almost barbaric to do marrow draws that often over

the

> > > course of a lifetime (although the unfortunate souls who have

> been in

> > > clinical trials over the years have been subjected to marrow

draws

> > > every 3 months).

> > >

> > > Take care,

> > > Tracey

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Marcos Perreau Guimaraes

> > Suppes Brain Lab

> > Ventura Hall - CSLI

> > Stanford University

> > 220 Panama street

> > Stanford CA 94305-4101

> > 650 329 9920 x 305

> > 650 630 5015 (cell)

> > marcospg@

> > montereyunderwater@

> > www.stanford.edu/~marcospg/

> >

>

>

>

>

> -----------------------------------------

> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of

> the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and

> confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended

> recipient or an authorized representative of the intended

> recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this

> communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this

> communication in error, notify the sender immediately by return

> email and delete the message and any attachments from your system.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tracey,

There are blood cells (like red blood cells,WBC, platelets) and blood stem

cells (HSC). The later makes the former. BMB cytogenetics, FISH and PCR

looks only at HSC. It's the CBC test that looks at the blood cells that are

not stem cells.

I probably read somewhere how many blood stem cells (HSC) we have but I

can't remember it now, I ll have to check later. If we look at the blood or

at the bone marrow ( where the drug actually works), I would bet that when

the BMB says 20/20 ph+, and the FISH 100/100 ph+, there are more than 95% of

HSC cells that are ph+ in the blood or in the bone marrow. I should have

said HSC in blood or bone marrow from the beginning, I apologize if that was

unclear.

This time I am going to have wish an excellent week-end to all, I have

meetings at the lab and then I take off to Monterey.

Cheers,

Marcos.

On 6/8/07, Tracey <traceyincanada@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Marcos,

>

> Yes you're right, not all cells are blood cells. I've heard one of

> the experts refer to the number of blood cells in our body as being

> in the neighbourhood of 3 trillion but I couldn't find a link for it

> so I didn't quote it in my earlier post.

>

> If this is the case, then 1 trillion cells at diagnosis compared to a

> total of 3 trillion in the body, does not come close to being 95%

> right? Am I missing something here?

>

> Tracey

>

>

> > > I

> > > > have also read that the fraction of ph+ cells in the peripheral

> > > blood

> > > > is a good representation of the fraction in the bone marrow, or

> they

> > > > probably wouldn't use PCR from the blood.

> > > From the

> > >

> > > >>>>

> > >

> > > From the 20/20 of

> > > > the BMB and the 100/100 of the FISH, the probability that there

> are

> > > > less than 95% of ph+ cells in the area they sampled is low. And

> it

> > > > gets extremely low for below 90%.

> > >

> > > ************************************************************

> > >

> > > Hi Marcos,

> > >

> > > It took some digging but I finally found a link. According to Dr.

> > > Mauro of OHSU (Dr. Druker's esteemed colleague) we have between

> > > 10^11 and 10^12 leukemic cells in us when we're diagnosed. For

> those

> > > who are mathematically challenged like myself, 10^12 is one

> trillion.

> > > http://tinyurl.com/28emoc

> > >

> > > I tried to find a credible link that showed how many cells we

> have in

> > > total and I got sites that said anything from 5 trillion to 100

> > > trillion so I can't say with any certainty what percentage 10^11

> or

> > > 10^12 would be, but I can say that it's far less than 95% of our

> > > total cells.

> > >

> > > As for why they choose to do PCR testing from peripheral blood, it

> > > has more to do with number of cells they can analyze than it does

> how

> > > closely the sample resembles the marrow (although they do seem to

> > > correlate).

> > >

> > > A draw of peripheral blood can remove many more dividing blood

> cells

> > > than a marrow draw can and it's far less invasive to do a

> peripheral

> > > blood draw. When we're expected to be tested every 3 months, it

> > > would seem almost barbaric to do marrow draws that often over the

> > > course of a lifetime (although the unfortunate souls who have

> been in

> > > clinical trials over the years have been subjected to marrow draws

> > > every 3 months).

> > >

> > > Take care,

> > > Tracey

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Marcos Perreau Guimaraes

> > Suppes Brain Lab

> > Ventura Hall - CSLI

> > Stanford University

> > 220 Panama street

> > Stanford CA 94305-4101

> > 650 329 9920 x 305

> > 650 630 5015 (cell)

> > marcospg@...

> > montereyunderwater@...

> > www.stanford.edu/~marcospg/

> >

>

>

>

--

Marcos Perreau Guimaraes

Suppes Brain Lab

Ventura Hall - CSLI

Stanford University

220 Panama street

Stanford CA 94305-4101

650 329 9920 x 305

650 630 5015 (cell)

marcospg@...

montereyunderwater@...

www.stanford.edu/~marcospg/

[Guest guest]

Hi Marcos,

I did realize that you were talking about hematopoietic stem cells.

What I'd like to see is a link showing how many we have. Since we

now know how many are leukemic on diagnosis (aprox. a trillion), we

could say exactly (more or less) what percentage that is if we knew

how many there were in total. I'm usually pretty good at finding

articles on the web but I've been having difficulty finding one that

explains this. Do have any links?

Have a great time in Monterey,

Tracey

> > > > I

> > > > > have also read that the fraction of ph+ cells in the

peripheral

> > > > blood

> > > > > is a good representation of the fraction in the bone

marrow, or

> > they

> > > > > probably wouldn't use PCR from the blood.

> > > > From the

> > > >

> > > > >>>>

> > > >

> > > > From the 20/20 of

> > > > > the BMB and the 100/100 of the FISH, the probability that

there

> > are

> > > > > less than 95% of ph+ cells in the area they sampled is low.

And

> > it

> > > > > gets extremely low for below 90%.

> > > >

> > > > ************************************************************

> > > >

> > > > Hi Marcos,

> > > >

> > > > It took some digging but I finally found a link. According to

Dr.

> > > > Mauro of OHSU (Dr. Druker's esteemed colleague) we have

between

> > > > 10^11 and 10^12 leukemic cells in us when we're diagnosed. For

> > those

> > > > who are mathematically challenged like myself, 10^12 is one

> > trillion.

> > > > http://tinyurl.com/28emoc

> > > >

> > > > I tried to find a credible link that showed how many cells we

> > have in

> > > > total and I got sites that said anything from 5 trillion to

100

> > > > trillion so I can't say with any certainty what percentage

10^11

> > or

> > > > 10^12 would be, but I can say that it's far less than 95% of

our

> > > > total cells.

> > > >

> > > > As for why they choose to do PCR testing from peripheral

blood, it

> > > > has more to do with number of cells they can analyze than it

does

> > how

> > > > closely the sample resembles the marrow (although they do

seem to

> > > > correlate).

> > > >

> > > > A draw of peripheral blood can remove many more dividing blood

> > cells

> > > > than a marrow draw can and it's far less invasive to do a

> > peripheral

> > > > blood draw. When we're expected to be tested every 3 months,

it

> > > > would seem almost barbaric to do marrow draws that often over

the

> > > > course of a lifetime (although the unfortunate souls who have

> > been in

> > > > clinical trials over the years have been subjected to marrow

draws

> > > > every 3 months).

> > > >

> > > > Take care,

> > > > Tracey

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > --

> > > Marcos Perreau Guimaraes

> > > Suppes Brain Lab

> > > Ventura Hall - CSLI

> > > Stanford University

> > > 220 Panama street

> > > Stanford CA 94305-4101

> > > 650 329 9920 x 305

> > > 650 630 5015 (cell)

> > > marcospg@

> > > montereyunderwater@

> > > www.stanford.edu/~marcospg/

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Marcos Perreau Guimaraes

> Suppes Brain Lab

> Ventura Hall - CSLI

> Stanford University

> 220 Panama street

> Stanford CA 94305-4101

> 650 329 9920 x 305

> 650 630 5015 (cell)

> marcospg@...

> montereyunderwater@...

> www.stanford.edu/~marcospg/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I managed to find one link that says we have 25 trillion blood cells

and it goes on to say that 2 million of them are made every second to

replace those that die.

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/stemcell.htm

ly, I find this a bit much so I'll keep searching for more

links....hopefully I'll find ones that are a bit more credible than

this one

Tracey

> > > > > I

> > > > > > have also read that the fraction of ph+ cells in the

> peripheral

> > > > > blood

> > > > > > is a good representation of the fraction in the bone

> marrow, or

> > > they

> > > > > > probably wouldn't use PCR from the blood.

> > > > > From the

> > > > >

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > >

> > > > > From the 20/20 of

> > > > > > the BMB and the 100/100 of the FISH, the probability that

> there

> > > are

> > > > > > less than 95% of ph+ cells in the area they sampled is

low.

> And

> > > it

> > > > > > gets extremely low for below 90%.

> > > > >

> > > > > ************************************************************

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Marcos,

> > > > >

> > > > > It took some digging but I finally found a link. According

to

> Dr.

> > > > > Mauro of OHSU (Dr. Druker's esteemed colleague) we have

> between

> > > > > 10^11 and 10^12 leukemic cells in us when we're diagnosed.

For

> > > those

> > > > > who are mathematically challenged like myself, 10^12 is one

> > > trillion.

> > > > > http://tinyurl.com/28emoc

> > > > >

> > > > > I tried to find a credible link that showed how many cells

we

> > > have in

> > > > > total and I got sites that said anything from 5 trillion to

> 100

> > > > > trillion so I can't say with any certainty what percentage

> 10^11

> > > or

> > > > > 10^12 would be, but I can say that it's far less than 95%

of

> our

> > > > > total cells.

> > > > >

> > > > > As for why they choose to do PCR testing from peripheral

> blood, it

> > > > > has more to do with number of cells they can analyze than

it

> does

> > > how

> > > > > closely the sample resembles the marrow (although they do

> seem to

> > > > > correlate).

> > > > >

> > > > > A draw of peripheral blood can remove many more dividing

blood

> > > cells

> > > > > than a marrow draw can and it's far less invasive to do a

> > > peripheral

> > > > > blood draw. When we're expected to be tested every 3

months,

> it

> > > > > would seem almost barbaric to do marrow draws that often

over

> the

> > > > > course of a lifetime (although the unfortunate souls who

have

> > > been in

> > > > > clinical trials over the years have been subjected to

marrow

> draws

> > > > > every 3 months).

> > > > >

> > > > > Take care,

> > > > > Tracey

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Marcos Perreau Guimaraes

> > > > Suppes Brain Lab

> > > > Ventura Hall - CSLI

> > > > Stanford University

> > > > 220 Panama street

> > > > Stanford CA 94305-4101

> > > > 650 329 9920 x 305

> > > > 650 630 5015 (cell)

> > > > marcospg@

> > > > montereyunderwater@

> > > > www.stanford.edu/~marcospg/

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Marcos Perreau Guimaraes

> > Suppes Brain Lab

> > Ventura Hall - CSLI

> > Stanford University

> > 220 Panama street

> > Stanford CA 94305-4101

> > 650 329 9920 x 305

> > 650 630 5015 (cell)

> > marcospg@

> > montereyunderwater@

> > www.stanford.edu/~marcospg/

> >

> >

> >