Re: If we believe fixation/ malposition....

[Guest guest]

Docs: I am glad that at least somebody is willing to think about and

discuss these very important conceptual issues. There is indeed much

philosophical disarray and confusion within the profession and this

list-serve is no exception. I applaud you guys for at least giving it

a try. The lack of humility in your post is not missed either...and so

I am guessing that you guys are pretty fresh out of school, but I

could be wrong ;-)

If you are saying that we should second-guess the concept of adjusting

STATIC malpositions, I pretty much agree with that....my own personal

clinical experience along with the overwhelming published data (which

has been beautifully summarized by Chestnut in his book

(http://thewellnesspractice.com/book_14foundational.html)

solidly suggests that subluxation is not so much a staic

malposition but more of a " movement deficiency SYNDROME " with

neurological, vascular, kinesiologcal, muscular, etc

consequences/components. That is not to say that posture and static

resting position is not of the utmost importance in human health,

because it very obviously is. It is just that it is perhaps best

addressed with specific rehab-oriented approaches ala CBP etc.

Your argument re. the fixation seems like a " straw man "

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) to me. Your rabbit hole was

not very deep. Based on your logic then perhaps we should never

intervene...in other words if someone is laying in a hospital bed, too

dehydrated and weak to reach the water glass bny their bedside, we

should leave them alone to fend for themselves because the body is

" Intelligently adapting " .

The body is of course " intelligent " , VERY intelligent. But our innate

intelligence (which I agree is ALWAYS trying to move us toward health

and homeostasis) is reading a blueprint (our DNA)that HAS NOT CHANGED

in 40,000 years. It is a mainstream and accepted premise that our

genes have not changed appreciably in 40,000 years. Guys like BJ, DD

and son didn't have that info. but they were mostly correct

anyway but they talked about how 'perfect' the innate intelligence in

and that is one place they may have erred...we are perfectly designed

for a different world perhaps. So given the fact that we are ancient

genetic organisms in a brave-new-environment it becomes quite easy to

see that our Innate Intelligence can INappropriately respond in our

modern environment (an which bears no resemblence to the

gentically-concordant/congruent environment of our hunter/gatherer

ancestors) because our genes DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE this modern

environment. I.e., If I am watching a movie and in the movie a Tiger

jumps out of the bushes, my 40,000 year old stress-response kicks

in-raising my blood pressure, dumping cortisol and adrenalin into my

bloodstream, increasing my clotting ability, increasing my blood sugar

etc etc. We could say that the body is being stupid and smart at the

same time.

Both poor posture and intersegment fixation-restriction objectively

exist (and no sane scientist or researcher inside or outside of the

chiropractic field argues that they do not). And if they exist, then

they have to be the result of the body responding to its environment.

So they are 'intelligent' adaptations. Our environment is everything

outside and inside us (including intra-cellular and extracellular

spaces). The environment is everything physical, chemical,

mental/emotional and electromagnetic that the organism is exposed to.

Given that this environment is different from what our genes were

expecting, then we are constantly and forever moving into and out of

adaptive physiology or adaptive biomechanics. When the enviroment

fails to change the adaptive physiology or adaptive biomechanics will

continue to attempt to adapt (in a never-ending attempt to change the

environment around the exposed cells). The result of unsuccessful

adaptation is fatigue, failure, decay and death. It is easy to see how

an organism that is toxic and deficient in so many ways can fail to

adapt perfectly and/or fail to complete an attempt to adapt.

The only thing that assist the body in healing in any way is to remove

the interferences and add in what is lacking. In the case of poor

posture what is lacking is " normal alignment " what is toxic and not

needed is " improper/abnormal alignment). In the case of

restriction/fixation what is lacking is

sufficient/normal/gentically-congruent motion. ( I will also add that

the body-mind is toxic with nociceptive signals when there is fixation.)

Chiropractic interventions such as adjustments and functional rehab et

al., therefore, assist the body's innate desire to 'get back on track'

by giving the body what it needs much similar to reaching for that

bedside glass of water and holding it to the mouth of those too weak

to do it for themselves.

>

> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take

the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

>

> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

>

> Two well accepted theories within the

chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately, neither

theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both

theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either

one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become

accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory

we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent

enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as long as we

believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull

the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help stabilize. In

this case, realigning the malposition would work against the body.

The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it

comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common

sense in this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory-

why does a joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle

> guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " , etc. Under any of these

circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the

fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to work

against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to

protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding

secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3)

neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we believe that the body

is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we manipulate

what we believe is an unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a

fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we would

manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I

believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you do.

>

> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of

years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that

during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round and

that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of

the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me as

you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we

go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some

time to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment,

treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world.

>

> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

>

[Guest guest]

,

Thank you for your response. At first I thought we were getting

along pretty well, it seems you agree with the thought that

misalignment does not exist but fixation seems to be your camp. I

would like to have a chance to respond to some of your thoughts. I

feel like it is easier for me to state your remark, then respond.

" movement deficiency SYNDROME "

I take it that you learned this from someone else? First of all,

when looking at a joint that is not moving as we would like it to we

have 2 responses, 1)It should be moving more, 2)It is moving as much

as it should be moving given its irritation or stability. The first

statement would suggest that the body is unintelligent, the second

that the body is working toward stability and is intelligent. In the

case of your statement you obviously believe the former. At this

point we have 2 theories, 1)Misalignment 2)Fixation, currently mostly

everyone is in one of these camps, whether they know it or not. What

I am asking you to think about is, why? Why would the body become

fixated, does it do this unknowingly? I suggest that the body is

doing this to guard or protect itself. At this point all you have

stated is that it is a deficiency of movement, nothing about why.

" Your argument re. the fixation seems like a " straw man "

> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) to me. Your rabbit hole was

> not very deep. Based on your logic then perhaps we should never

> intervene...in other words if someone is laying in a hospital bed,

too

> dehydrated and weak to reach the water glass bny their bedside, we

> should leave them alone to fend for themselves because the body is

> " Intelligently adapting " . "

I never said we should not intervene, I only stated that these two

theories are not correct. The hospital bed idea, think you may be

putting words into my mouth instead of water.

" So they are 'intelligent' adaptations. "

Not sure whose side you are on? Some of your/Dr. Chestnut's comments

agree with mine, others do not. Maybe it is Dr. Chestnut I need to

talk to, everyone so far seems to be pointing me to him.

" The only thing that assist the body in healing in any way is to

remove

> the interferences and add in what is lacking. In the case of poor

> posture what is lacking is " normal alignment " what is toxic and not

> needed is " improper/abnormal alignment). "

In this case I would agree if there is operator error but it is hard

to decide this until there is irritation. Even in the case of

irritation the body will work toward stability, therefore there is

never abnormal alignment only irritation or operator error and the

body's intelligent response. The question is how can you work with

the body and teach the person to stop hurting themselves.

Thank you for your response, look forward speaking with you in the

future.

Brad Welker, D.C.

In the case of

> restriction/fixation what is lacking is

> sufficient/normal/gentically-congruent motion. ( I will also add

that

> the body-mind is toxic with nociceptive signals when there is

fixation.)

>

> Chiropractic interventions such as adjustments and functional rehab

et

> al., therefore, assist the body's innate desire to 'get back on

track'

> by giving the body what it needs much similar to reaching for that

> bedside glass of water and holding it to the mouth of those too weak

> to do it for themselves. "

> >

> > I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

> choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take

> the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

> >

> > Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> >

> > Two well accepted theories within the

> chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

neither

> theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both

> theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either

> one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become

> accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this

theory

> we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent

> enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as long as we

> believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not

pull

> the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help stabilize.

In

> this case, realigning the malposition would work against the body.

> The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it

> comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent.

Common

> sense in this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory-

> why does a joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle

> > guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " , etc. Under any of these

> circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the

> fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to work

> against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to

> protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding

> secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3)

> neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we believe that the

body

> is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we

manipulate

> what we believe is an unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a

> fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we would

> manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I

> believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you

do.

> >

> > The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of

> years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

> schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

> unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure

that

> during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round and

> that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of

> the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me

as

> you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here

we

> go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some

> time to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment,

> treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world.

> >

> > Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Brad:

1-You have me confused me with the eminent Colwell, DC of Ashland

and his earlier responses...I am the eminent Dr. , of Newberg.

This is my first response/foray into this muck...so perhaps you can

re-read my post within that context.

2- I am not on anybody's side. I am on the side of reason.

3- You inquire:

" Why would the body become fixated, does it do this unknowingly? "

Again, re-read my post as I think I give a clear explanation of

fixation as an " intelligent " adaptation to what the body perceives is

occurring in the environment. (Remember the Tiger in the movie and my

blood pressure?) Subluxation/fixation is the same thing, kind of a

stupid/smart reaction depending how you look at it, only on a more

biomechanical/chronic realm. The body reacts similarly to ALL

stressors (chiros didn't make that up...that comes from Hans

Selye,PhD. the most eminent physiologist in the world)it reacts in a

way that will facilitate a change in the environment. That environment

might be the Tiger running at you or the repeated and continued tissue

fatigue that comes from sitting on your arse all day for instance.

Remember the genetic program is 40,000 years old, the environment is

not, so innate intelligence is 'doing the best it can'. But we are

constantly throwing it " curveballs " - (i.e. eating toxic junk food that

never existed before, sitting all day long, being bombarded by CNN and

the idiot box all evening long....our genes have no defense for this

stuff because it did not exist when our genome selected out)

Cheers.

COLLINS

> > >

> > > I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

> > choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take

> > the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

> > >

> > > Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> > >

> > > Two well accepted theories within the

> > chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

> neither

> > theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both

> > theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either

> > one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become

> > accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this

> theory

> > we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent

> > enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as long as we

> > believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not

> pull

> > the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help stabilize.

> In

> > this case, realigning the malposition would work against the body.

> > The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it

> > comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent.

> Common

> > sense in this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory-

> > why does a joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle

> > > guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " , etc. Under any of these

> > circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the

> > fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to work

> > against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to

> > protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding

> > secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3)

> > neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we believe that the

> body

> > is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we

> manipulate

> > what we believe is an unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a

> > fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we would

> > manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I

> > believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you

> do.

> > >

> > > The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of

> > years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

> > schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

> > unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure

> that

> > during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round and

> > that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of

> > the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me

> as

> > you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here

> we

> > go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some

> > time to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment,

> > treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world.

> > >

> > > Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, no disrespect, trying to respond to each e-mail. Appreciate

your input.

Brad Welker, D.C.

> > > >

> > > > I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if

you

> > > choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to

take

> > > the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

> > > >

> > > > Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> > > >

> > > > Two well accepted theories within the

> > > chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

> > neither

> > > theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe

both

> > > theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

either

> > > one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become

> > > accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this

> > theory

> > > we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent

> > > enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as long

as we

> > > believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did

not

> > pull

> > > the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help

stabilize.

> > In

> > > this case, realigning the malposition would work against the

body.

> > > The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when

it

> > > comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent.

> > Common

> > > sense in this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation

theory-

> > > why does a joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle

> > > > guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " , etc. Under any of

these

> > > circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the

> > > fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to

work

> > > against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying

to

> > > protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1)

guarding

> > > secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint

instability, 3)

> > > neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we believe that

the

> > body

> > > is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we

> > manipulate

> > > what we believe is an unintelligent system. Joint mice- this

is a

> > > fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we

would

> > > manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I

> > > believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than

you

> > do.

> > > >

> > > > The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many

hundreds of

> > > years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

> > > schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour

the

> > > unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am

sure

> > that

> > > during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round

and

> > > that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed

out of

> > > the schools and called many names that you are probably calling

me

> > as

> > > you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but

here

> > we

> > > go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need

some

> > > time to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment,

> > > treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round

world.

> > > >

> > > > Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>