Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Bill, Mycotoxins are molecules and molecules are very small, but that does not mean that they are in the air as such. In fact, since all common mycotoxins are solids at room temperature, they are not present in the air as molecules (the way a gas or vapor is). Mycotoxins therefore do not penetrate solids the way small gas or vapor molecules might. Mycotoxins are always produced on particles (spores, hyphae, gypsum crystals or paper fibers in drywall, etc.) When these are aerosols, they can be filtered like any other particle. The amount of mycotoxin entering the deep lung would therefore depend strictly on the size of the particle to which it is adhered. Dust with mycotoxin-carrying particles can certainly accumulate in porous surfaces, but can be cleaned from a solid surface with proper technique. Mycotoxins do not contain 250-500 carbon atoms because a Dalton is actually one twelfth the weight of a carbon atom; so typical mycotoxins contain about 20-40 carbon atoms (according to the reckoning of your reference). An interesting idea came up while Carl Grimes and I were discussing mold exposures. Outdoors, most spores (with the exception of the most common genus, Cladosporium) are usually found as individuals or small groupings (less than 10), while indoors, some spores, such as Aspergillus and Penicillium genera, are found in chains, or clusters of up to100 spores (since they are produced locally indoors and not tossed around by wind). Thus, for example, for the same concentration of spores per cubic meter of air, an indoor exposure could have more of a toxic or allergenic impact on the lung tissue, since many more spores are impacting on a smaller area of lung. C. May May Indoor Air Investigations LLC www.mayindoorair.com www.myhouseiskillingme.com -- Reply to: Jeff@... > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 03:03:42 -0000 > From: " Croft " > Subject: Re: NanoMask > > Mycotoxins such as trichothecenes are very low in molecular weight > (250 to 500 daltons). A dalton is roughly equivalent to one carbon > atom inside the molecule -- so about 250 to 500 carbon atoms in the > chain or structure. This is extremely small, consider it a gas, like > a radioactive gas! Which means it can penetrate or deeply lodge / > adhere / adsorb into anything porous. And even on " non-porous " > surfaces such as steel or ceramic, can bind at the surface. > > http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/MedRef/OnlineRef/FieldManuals/medman/Mycotoxi > ns.htm > > --Bill Croft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 All of us with items in storage for more than a year, after scrubbing with everything known to man, are waiting with baitted breath for you to elucidate on the right technique to clean our stuff. Soaking in Bleach and lye is the method the military uses, but is not viable for most household goods, and is detrimental to art and antiques. karen> Mycotoxins are molecules and molecules are very small, but that does not mean that they are in the air as such. In fact, since all common mycotoxins are solids at room temperature, they are not present in the air as molecules (the way a gas or vapor is). Mycotoxins therefore do not penetrate solids the way small gas or vapor molecules might. > > Mycotoxins are always produced on particles (spores, hyphae, gypsum crystals or paper fibers in drywall, etc.) When these are aerosols, they can be filtered like any other particle. The amount of mycotoxin entering the deep lung would therefore depend strictly on the size of the particle to which it is adhered. Dust with mycotoxin-carrying particles can certainly accumulate in porous surfaces, but can be cleaned from a solid surface with proper technique. > > Mycotoxins do not contain 250-500 carbon atoms because a Dalton is actually one twelfth the weight of a carbon atom; so typical mycotoxins contain about 20-40 carbon atoms (according to the reckoning of your reference). > > An interesting idea came up while Carl Grimes and I were discussing mold exposures. Outdoors, most spores (with the exception of the most common genus, Cladosporium) are usually found as individuals or small groupings (less than 10), while indoors, some spores, such as Aspergillus and Penicillium genera, are found in chains, or clusters of up to100 spores (since they are produced locally indoors and not tossed around by wind). Thus, for example, for the same concentration of spores per cubic meter of air, an indoor exposure could have more of a toxic or allergenic impact on the lung tissue, since many more spores are impacting on a smaller area of lung. > > C. May > May Indoor Air Investigations LLC > www.mayindoorair.com > www.myhouseiskillingme.com > > -- > Reply to: > Jeff@m... > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 03:03:42 -0000 > > From: " Croft " > > Subject: Re: NanoMask > > > > Mycotoxins such as trichothecenes are very low in molecular weight > > (250 to 500 daltons). A dalton is roughly equivalent to one carbon > > atom inside the molecule -- so about 250 to 500 carbon atoms in the > > chain or structure. This is extremely small, consider it a gas, like > > a radioactive gas! Which means it can penetrate or deeply lodge / > > adhere / adsorb into anything porous. And even on " non-porous " > > surfaces such as steel or ceramic, can bind at the surface. > > > > http://www.nbc- med.org/SiteContent/MedRef/OnlineRef/FieldManuals/medman/Mycotoxi > > ns.htm > > > > --Bill Croft > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Jeff, thanks for that correction on the Dalton definition. Obviously the mycotoxins are VERY tiny molecules WAY WAY smaller than the spores or hyphae. Re: adherence or penetration of mycotoxins... > > Bill, > > Mycotoxins are molecules and molecules are very small, but that does not mean that they are in the air as such. In fact, since all common mycotoxins are solids at room temperature, they are not present in the air as molecules (the way a gas or vapor is). Mycotoxins therefore do not penetrate solids the way small gas or vapor molecules might. --- It's my perception that the military HAS indeed produced mycotoxins in large quantities and their release in field conditions has been documented numerous times ( " yellow rain " ). So I'm not quite sure we can rule out mycotoxins as " not present in the air as molecules " . And clearly the brownian motion of air molecules impinging on the raw mycotoxins or mycotoxins bound to hyphae, would be enough to keep them airborne indefinitely in any enclosed space. So in practice this REALLY IS more like a gas than a solid that would settle out to the ground eventually. And what are you calling " solid " ?? Cloth, paper, wood, electronics, plastic film? I've talked with other moldies before who have confirmed that mycotoxins DO penetrate plastic film/bags. This would translate to me as VERY small molecules, not just mycotoxins attached to spores or hyphae or dust. Double bagging cuts this somewhat but not entirely. has commented in before on the way that the mycotoxins adhered rigorously to the rubber coating on his binoculars. My guess is that many common " solid " surfaces have gobs of microporous surface area to adhere and bind to -- only to be released by touch or disturbance. It could be that some of these mycotoxins originally reached the binoculars on top of hyphae or spores, but then rebound to the rubber plastic surface. How else can we explain objects which are resistant to remediation? Dean can site dozens of cases like this, even with her best efforts and care. Regards, --Bill Croft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Yes, and in the issue of cross contamination, A scrubbed item is left in an area, it is found to be " radiating " toxin- it is thrown out, the area, floor, wall, scrubbed, then a new item is put in the same area, after a while it is noticed to be rediating toxin also, it is moved, assuming it is the wall, floor, but no, now both the floor, walls and new item are contaminated. Such is the learning curve with mycotoxins, and leads to highly reactive people going through multiple living spaces, and multiple household goods untill they get it right. As I have a severe upper- resperatory reaction to spore,and no such reation happens with these things, only the mycotoxin burn, and have things scrubbed totally before bringing them inside, I am assuming that there are only mycotoxins contaminating these items, This leads me to the conclusion that mycotoxins can and do travel without spore. has also discussed this before. > has commented in before on the way that the > mycotoxins adhered rigorously to the rubber coating on his binoculars. > My guess is that many common " solid " surfaces have gobs of > microporous surface area to adhere and bind to -- only to be released > by touch or disturbance. It could be that some of these mycotoxins > originally reached the binoculars on top of hyphae or spores, but then > rebound to the rubber plastic surface. How else can we explain > objects which are resistant to remediation? Dean can site > dozens of cases like this, even with her best efforts and care. > > Regards, > > --Bill Croft > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 At the risk of sounding naive, can the mycotoxins be neutralized by a cleaner, such as the Grapefruit seed extract, on solid objects and in the nasal/ sinus passages? There was a web site that I found that had a great deal of information about Mycotoxins and the use of them: http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/HomePage/WhatsNew/MedAspects/ Ch-34electrv699.pdf Bobbie > > Yes, and in the issue of cross contamination, A scrubbed item is left > in an area, it is found to be " radiating " toxin- it is thrown out, the > area, floor, wall, scrubbed, then a new item is put in the same area, > after a while it is noticed to be rediating toxin also, it is moved, > assuming it is the wall, floor, but no, now both the floor, walls and > new item are contaminated. Such is the learning curve with mycotoxins, > and leads to highly reactive people going through multiple living > spaces, and multiple household goods untill they get it right. As I > have a severe upper- resperatory reaction to spore,and no such reation > happens with these things, only the mycotoxin burn, and have things > scrubbed totally before bringing them inside, I am assuming that there > are only mycotoxins contaminating these items, This leads me to the > conclusion that mycotoxins can and do travel without spore. has > also discussed this before. > > > > has commented in before on the way that the > > mycotoxins adhered rigorously to the rubber coating on his > binoculars. > > My guess is that many common " solid " surfaces have gobs of > > microporous surface area to adhere and bind to -- only to be released > > by touch or disturbance. It could be that some of these mycotoxins > > originally reached the binoculars on top of hyphae or spores, but > then > > rebound to the rubber plastic surface. How else can we explain > > objects which are resistant to remediation? Dean can site > > dozens of cases like this, even with her best efforts and care. > > > > Regards, > > > > --Bill Croft > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Hi Jeff, In your book, My House is Killing Me, you mention clients complaining about having allergies to their partners and advise them to use soap and leave it on for a long time when showering. Were you able to follow-up on these type of cases? was the advice to use soap successful for your clients? was it possible that the allergens were in the clothes and, if so, how does one get rid of it? jeff@... escribió: Bill, Mycotoxins are molecules and molecules are very small, but that does not mean that they are in the air as such. In fact, since all common mycotoxins are solids at room temperature, they are not present in the air as molecules (the way a gas or vapor is). Mycotoxins therefore do not penetrate solids the way small gas or vapor molecules might. Mycotoxins are always produced on particles (spores, hyphae, gypsum crystals or paper fibers in drywall, etc.) When these are aerosols, they can be filtered like any other particle. The amount of mycotoxin entering the deep lung would therefore depend strictly on the size of the particle to which it is adhered. Dust with mycotoxin-carrying particles can certainly accumulate in porous surfaces, but can be cleaned from a solid surface with proper technique. Mycotoxins do not contain 250-500 carbon atoms because a Dalton is actually one twelfth the weight of a carbon atom; so typical mycotoxins contain about 20-40 carbon atoms (according to the reckoning of your reference). An interesting idea came up while Carl Grimes and I were discussing mold exposures. Outdoors, most spores (with the exception of the most common genus, Cladosporium) are usually found as individuals or small groupings (less than 10), while indoors, some spores, such as Aspergillus and Penicillium genera, are found in chains, or clusters of up to100 spores (since they are produced locally indoors and not tossed around by wind). Thus, for example, for the same concentration of spores per cubic meter of air, an indoor exposure could have more of a toxic or allergenic impact on the lung tissue, since many more spores are impacting on a smaller area of lung. C. May May Indoor Air Investigations LLC www.mayindoorair.com www.myhouseiskillingme.com -- Reply to: Jeff@... > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 03:03:42 -0000 > From: " Croft " > Subject: Re: NanoMask > > Mycotoxins such as trichothecenes are very low in molecular weight > (250 to 500 daltons). A dalton is roughly equivalent to one carbon > atom inside the molecule -- so about 250 to 500 carbon atoms in the > chain or structure. This is extremely small, consider it a gas, like > a radioactive gas! Which means it can penetrate or deeply lodge / > adhere / adsorb into anything porous. And even on " non-porous " > surfaces such as steel or ceramic, can bind at the surface. > > http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/MedRef/OnlineRef/FieldManuals/medman/Mycotoxi > ns.htm > > --Bill Croft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Mr. May, What a pleasure to see you here I heard of your story years ago I'm a fan of yours Keep and eye on Florida it's very bad and so many look the other way because they think it's not affecting them. Peace Elvira Re: NanoMask > > Mycotoxins such as trichothecenes are very low in molecular weight > (250 to 500 daltons). A dalton is roughly equivalent to one carbon > atom inside the molecule -- so about 250 to 500 carbon atoms in the > chain or structure. This is extremely small, consider it a gas, like > a radioactive gas! Which means it can penetrate or deeply lodge / > adhere / adsorb into anything porous. And even on " non-porous " > surfaces such as steel or ceramic, can bind at the surface. > > http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/MedRef/OnlineRef/FieldManuals/medman/Mycotoxi > ns.htm > > --Bill Croft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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