Guest guest Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 1. Yes. Mycotoxins are metabolic by-products. Every creature produces by-products. We tend to call mold by-products mycotoxins if they are TOXIC to someone or something. What is not toxic to a person may be extremely toxic to a tobacco plant. 2. If they are alive, they produce by-products. The entire life cycle may not produce the SAME by-products. Yes they can be defensive in nature if their enemy is reactive to the toxin. They didn't get together one day and decide to make a defensive material. Like all evolutionary processes, what works continues to develop. 3. A byproduct can be vapor or particulate. Depends. Particulates are usually too small for filters. Charcoal however seems to do a decent job. 4 & 5. Are toxins toxic to everyone? No. Not only do some people ignore some toxins but the same toxin may have different effects on different people. A mycotoxin that harms a tobacco plant can't be defensive. The tobacco plant is no threat to the mold. As a side, that toxin may harm a person if the person smokes the tobacco. The lit end destroys the toxin if the fire touches the toxin. But the heat just behind the fire pushes the toxin toward the smoker. The future of home testing will rely on toxin testing instead of spore testing. Some people are doing it now. But low cost testers are about to come out that are used like Geiger counters. You walk through the room and they read out any mycotoxins found in the room. These machines won't require the services of an expensive Industrial Hygienist. You may be able to rent one at Krogers alongside their steam carpet cleaners. Dr GW Graham Mold Lab Intl. kengibs <jkg4902@...> wrote: There are a number of questions I haven't fully understood. Maybe someone could help by explaining. 1. Do all molds produce mycotoxins? I've heard not... In fact I've heard most do not produce mycotoxins. What's the story? 2. Do all molds which can produce mycotoxins produce these toxins during a regular life cycle? I understand not... that mycotoxins are generally a defensive mechanism produced by some molds only when triggered to produce the toxins. Thus some molds might never be triggered to produce toxins. If so when are our household molds toxic? 3. I used to believe mycotoxins are a vapor or gas. I've been told not so they are a fine particulate .... a fine powder. If so why couldn't a filtering system be relied on to filter out the mycotoxins that are a household hazard??? 4. I used to believe all mycotoxins were poisons.. or at least so to humans... I now have heard not so that few mycotoxins are toxic to humans that probably more varieties are beneficial... with antibiotic characteristics. What are the facts?? 5. Do all poisonous mycotoxins effect humans equally? or must humans be susceptible to the toxin? Are there degrees of immunity to mycotoxins? How does one fight off a mycotoxin poisoning? Can someone shed light on the true story of mycotoxins. If we have any good experts on the subject maybe someone would like to write a book? Ken FAIR USE NOTICE: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 That't interesting about testing for toxins. Hope that is the wave of the future. Loni Graham <meriset1@...> wrote: 1. Yes. Mycotoxins are metabolic by-products. Every creature produces by-products. We tend to call mold by-products mycotoxins if they are TOXIC to someone or something. What is not toxic to a person may be extremely toxic to a tobacco plant. 2. If they are alive, they produce by-products. The entire life cycle may not produce the SAME by-products. Yes they can be defensive in nature if their enemy is reactive to the toxin. They didn't get together one day and decide to make a defensive material. Like all evolutionary processes, what works continues to develop. 3. A byproduct can be vapor or particulate. Depends. Particulates are usually too small for filters. Charcoal however seems to do a decent job. 4 & 5. Are toxins toxic to everyone? No. Not only do some people ignore some toxins but the same toxin may have different effects on different people. A mycotoxin that harms a tobacco plant can't be defensive. The tobacco plant is no threat to the mold. As a side, that toxin may harm a person if the person smokes the tobacco. The lit end destroys the toxin if the fire touches the toxin. But the heat just behind the fire pushes the toxin toward the smoker. The future of home testing will rely on toxin testing instead of spore testing. Some people are doing it now. But low cost testers are about to come out that are used like Geiger counters. You walk through the room and they read out any mycotoxins found in the room. These machines won't require the services of an expensive Industrial Hygienist. You may be able to rent one at Krogers alongside their steam carpet cleaners. Dr GW Graham Mold Lab Intl. kengibs <jkg4902@...> wrote: There are a number of questions I haven't fully understood. Maybe someone could help by explaining. 1. Do all molds produce mycotoxins? I've heard not... In fact I've heard most do not produce mycotoxins. What's the story? 2. Do all molds which can produce mycotoxins produce these toxins during a regular life cycle? I understand not... that mycotoxins are generally a defensive mechanism produced by some molds only when triggered to produce the toxins. Thus some molds might never be triggered to produce toxins. If so when are our household molds toxic? 3. I used to believe mycotoxins are a vapor or gas. I've been told not so they are a fine particulate .... a fine powder. If so why couldn't a filtering system be relied on to filter out the mycotoxins that are a household hazard??? 4. I used to believe all mycotoxins were poisons.. or at least so to humans... I now have heard not so that few mycotoxins are toxic to humans that probably more varieties are beneficial... with antibiotic characteristics. What are the facts?? 5. Do all poisonous mycotoxins effect humans equally? or must humans be susceptible to the toxin? Are there degrees of immunity to mycotoxins? How does one fight off a mycotoxin poisoning? Can someone shed light on the true story of mycotoxins. If we have any good experts on the subject maybe someone would like to write a book? Ken FAIR USE NOTICE: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 As I have read many papers that state mycotoxins are stable at temperture of up to 5,000 degrees, how hot does your cigar end get? > There are a number of questions I haven't fully understood. Maybe > someone could help by explaining. > > > 1. Do all molds produce mycotoxins? > I've heard not... In fact I've heard most do not produce mycotoxins. > What's the story? > > > 2. Do all molds which can produce mycotoxins produce these toxins > during a regular life cycle? > I understand not... that mycotoxins are generally a defensive > mechanism produced by some molds only when triggered to produce the > toxins. Thus some molds might never be triggered to produce toxins. > If so when are our household molds toxic? > > > > 3. I used to believe mycotoxins are a vapor or gas. I've been told > not so they are a fine particulate .... a fine powder. > If so why couldn't a filtering system be relied on to filter out the > mycotoxins that are a household hazard??? > > > > > 4. I used to believe all mycotoxins were poisons.. or at least so > to humans... > I now have heard not so that few mycotoxins are toxic to humans that > probably more varieties are beneficial... with antibiotic > characteristics. What are the facts?? > > > > 5. Do all poisonous mycotoxins effect humans equally? or must > humans be susceptible to the toxin? Are there degrees of immunity > to mycotoxins? How does one fight off a mycotoxin poisoning? > > > > Can someone shed light on the true story of mycotoxins. If we have > any good experts on the subject maybe someone would like to write a > book? > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 A defensive weapon, yes- As i have said before , I never recommend anyone try and kill a colony of mold with an ozonator, or anything else - My husband refused to let me dump 2 moldy couches, I let a very strong ozonator rip in there all night- I came in the next morning to a mycotoxin release that nearly killed me- and ruined all my art work In , " kengibs " <jkg4902@h...> wrote: > > There are a number of questions I haven't fully understood. Maybe > someone could help by explaining. > > > 1. Do all molds produce mycotoxins? > I've heard not... In fact I've heard most do not produce mycotoxins. > What's the story? > > > 2. Do all molds which can produce mycotoxins produce these toxins > during a regular life cycle? > I understand not... that mycotoxins are generally a defensive > mechanism produced by some molds only when triggered to produce the > toxins. Thus some molds might never be triggered to produce toxins. > If so when are our household molds toxic? > > > > 3. I used to believe mycotoxins are a vapor or gas. I've been told > not so they are a fine particulate .... a fine powder. > If so why couldn't a filtering system be relied on to filter out the > mycotoxins that are a household hazard??? > > > > > 4. I used to believe all mycotoxins were poisons.. or at least so > to humans... > I now have heard not so that few mycotoxins are toxic to humans that > probably more varieties are beneficial... with antibiotic > characteristics. What are the facts?? > > > > 5. Do all poisonous mycotoxins effect humans equally? or must > humans be susceptible to the toxin? Are there degrees of immunity > to mycotoxins? How does one fight off a mycotoxin poisoning? > > > > Can someone shed light on the true story of mycotoxins. If we have > any good experts on the subject maybe someone would like to write a > book? > > > Ken > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 , I have a question about this statement to Ken's questions: >1. Yes. Mycotoxins are metabolic by-products. Every creature >produces by-products. We tend to call mold by-products mycotoxins if >they are TOXIC to someone or something. What is not toxic to a >person may be extremely toxic to a tobacco plant. Mold does produce by-products and some of those can be a reactant to people, even as a toxin. But I thought the term mycotoxin was specifically used (rather than " tended " to be used) to describe the territorial chemicals released by mold to protect itself from other mold. You can see it on culture plates where one colony approaches but does not touch or " eat " a different colony. This was the explanation, as I understood it by Jarvis et al, for why not all varieties of Stachybotrys chartarum produced mycotoxins (yet they all produce metabolic by-products). The environment strongly influences the specific properties, and part of the environment is the close proximity of other mold growth. Ken, there is a lot of literature and studies on mycotoxins but it is mostly limited to animals studies and ingestion. Very little yet on inhalation or specifically to how humans are exposed to damp indoor spaces. Start with the Inst of Medicine study and its comprehensive bibliography. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Loni, I mean that the art work is now toxic to me, seeing that it is radiating toxin so strongly that I cannot come within 20 ft of it without feeling the burn, if I stay, I start going down- not a medical term > > > > There are a number of questions I haven't fully understood. Maybe > > someone could help by explaining. > > > > > > 1. Do all molds produce mycotoxins? > > I've heard not... In fact I've heard most do not produce > mycotoxins. > > What's the story? > > > > > > 2. Do all molds which can produce mycotoxins produce these toxins > > during a regular life cycle? > > I understand not... that mycotoxins are generally a defensive > > mechanism produced by some molds only when triggered to produce > the > > toxins. Thus some molds might never be triggered to produce > toxins. > > If so when are our household molds toxic? > > > > > > > > 3. I used to believe mycotoxins are a vapor or gas. I've been > told > > not so they are a fine particulate .... a fine powder. > > If so why couldn't a filtering system be relied on to filter out > the > > mycotoxins that are a household hazard??? > > > > > > > > > > 4. I used to believe all mycotoxins were poisons.. or at least > so > > to humans... > > I now have heard not so that few mycotoxins are toxic to humans > that > > probably more varieties are beneficial... with antibiotic > > characteristics. What are the facts?? > > > > > > > > 5. Do all poisonous mycotoxins effect humans equally? or must > > humans be susceptible to the toxin? Are there degrees of immunity > > to mycotoxins? How does one fight off a mycotoxin poisoning? > > > > > > > > Can someone shed light on the true story of mycotoxins. If we have > > any good experts on the subject maybe someone would like to write > a > > book? > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 I have been doing little else with my spare time for a long time to find ways to de-activate mycotoxins, including sending e-mails to every expert I have ever heard of. Thanks to all who answered. Mold it easy to kill, pretty easy to clean away, but the stubborn mycotoxins stay for a long time- " s lasted about 5 years. Experts say to have the art work restored by a proffesional, but I am that proffessional, all of the techniques for clothing and hard items are not appropriate for paintings- but the ozonator might help speed things up , and in another year ,I might be able to have them back. I will let you know. In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@g...> wrote: > > SUNLIGHT over time can kill and deactivate mold, I THINK. But don't > take my word for it. Verify this. But sunlight cant penetrate down > inside of things like couches. But it might be able to kill mold on a > painting satisfactorily. STRONG UV light also kills mold and I think, > may do something to inactivate mycotoxins.. BUT CHECK WITH A REAL > AUTHORITY AND GET MORE DATA. > > A *BIG* UV light does seem to be helping some with my bathroom.. where > we have mold seeping in from the walls of the house that seems > impossible to stop by blocking all visible holes with duct tape.. > > > I don't know how much it kills it though. I have just heard that it > does a little but I dont remember where. Let us know if you find out > any specifics. > > and remember SUNLIGHT has more UV than any blacklight. DIRECT SUN - > > On 11/11/05, carondeen <kdeanstudios@v...> wrote: > > A defensive weapon, yes- As i have said before , I never recommend > > anyone try and kill a colony of mold with an ozonator, or anything > > else - My husband refused to let me dump 2 moldy couches, I let a > > very strong ozonator rip in there all night- I came in the next > > morning to a mycotoxin release that nearly killed me- and ruined > > all my art work > > > > In , " kengibs " <jkg4902@h...> wrote: > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 My $300 expense for UV lights has not worked, it dicolors most things that it get near, and I have read that mycotoxins are immune to UV light. My test subjects are still toxic after 1 year > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Just want to be a nut and brow beat people again- lots of people will recommend using an ozone generator to kill mold- just remember what happened to me before you do yourself or your home the potential damage of a massive mycotoxin release- wheather the mold is trying to defend itself or is sending out toxin as a dying gasp is a moot point considering the end result > > > > There are a number of questions I haven't fully understood. Maybe > > someone could help by explaining. > > > > > > 1. Do all molds produce mycotoxins? > > I've heard not... In fact I've heard most do not produce > mycotoxins. > > What's the story? > > > > > > 2. Do all molds which can produce mycotoxins produce these toxins > > during a regular life cycle? > > I understand not... that mycotoxins are generally a defensive > > mechanism produced by some molds only when triggered to produce > the > > toxins. Thus some molds might never be triggered to produce > toxins. > > If so when are our household molds toxic? > > > > > > > > 3. I used to believe mycotoxins are a vapor or gas. I've been > told > > not so they are a fine particulate .... a fine powder. > > If so why couldn't a filtering system be relied on to filter out > the > > mycotoxins that are a household hazard??? > > > > > > > > > > 4. I used to believe all mycotoxins were poisons.. or at least > so > > to humans... > > I now have heard not so that few mycotoxins are toxic to humans > that > > probably more varieties are beneficial... with antibiotic > > characteristics. What are the facts?? > > > > > > > > 5. Do all poisonous mycotoxins effect humans equally? or must > > humans be susceptible to the toxin? Are there degrees of immunity > > to mycotoxins? How does one fight off a mycotoxin poisoning? > > > > > > > > Can someone shed light on the true story of mycotoxins. If we have > > any good experts on the subject maybe someone would like to write > a > > book? > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2005 Report Share Posted November 12, 2005 Mycotoxins are secondary metabolites specifically produced as a defensive mechanism. Very " biologically expensive " to produce, which is why Stachy doesn't even bother to formulate toxins if it senses no competitor or threat. Very economically efficient for such a " simple " organism. As I wrote in an old post, Mold is a morally superior life form to humans. Makes no weapons it doesn't need and is more " sharing " and cooperative than Homo Sapiens, or, as I think our species should REALLY be named: " Homo Stupidens " since we seem to be bent on self destruction. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2005 Report Share Posted November 12, 2005 I am a proffessioal restorer, so when scientists and specialists told me to have the pieces professionally cleaned- I knew this was out of the question, the things necessary to clean mycotoxins from clothes and hard items, some of which I have sucessfully done, would destroy a painting. ,But my theory now is that an ozonator may work over a long period of time- say a year, to hurry up the naturally weakening of these toxins- the ozonator on full blast will have a bleaching effect on items close to it, but on a lower setting for a year may do the trick- when I have my shed set up I will do it- and report back at 6 month intervals the progress I have made. > > > > > > There are a number of questions I haven't fully understood. > Maybe > > > someone could help by explaining. > > > > > > > > > 1. Do all molds produce mycotoxins? > > > I've heard not... In fact I've heard most do not produce > > mycotoxins. > > > What's the story? > > > > > > > > > 2. Do all molds which can produce mycotoxins produce these > toxins > > > during a regular life cycle? > > > I understand not... that mycotoxins are generally a defensive > > > mechanism produced by some molds only when triggered to produce > > the > > > toxins. Thus some molds might never be triggered to produce > > toxins. > > > If so when are our household molds toxic? > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. I used to believe mycotoxins are a vapor or gas. I've been > > told > > > not so they are a fine particulate .... a fine powder. > > > If so why couldn't a filtering system be relied on to filter out > > the > > > mycotoxins that are a household hazard??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. I used to believe all mycotoxins were poisons.. or at least > > so > > > to humans... > > > I now have heard not so that few mycotoxins are toxic to humans > > that > > > probably more varieties are beneficial... with antibiotic > > > characteristics. What are the facts?? > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Do all poisonous mycotoxins effect humans equally? or must > > > humans be susceptible to the toxin? Are there degrees of > immunity > > > to mycotoxins? How does one fight off a mycotoxin poisoning? > > > > > > > > > > > > Can someone shed light on the true story of mycotoxins. If we > have > > > any good experts on the subject maybe someone would like to > write > > a > > > book? > > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2005 Report Share Posted November 12, 2005 I used one successfully, this is how: 1- really important- I had the mold remediated, and got rid of all that could be found. 2- then I ran the ozone machine to get rid of residual contamination, while we were out of the house, mostly. It really made a difference in my reaction to the areas treated. I still have stuff that I react to, which was exposed to the ozone for varying periods of time, like some clothing, and harder stuff like a bookcase, etc which are in a storage area. in the basement. It didn't do everything, but I can be down there now, which I could not before i ran the machine. It is really important to be really careful with ozone....what kills mold is likely to be really bad for you.... > > > > > > There are a number of questions I haven't fully understood. > Maybe > > > someone could help by explaining. > > > > > > > > > 1. Do all molds produce mycotoxins? > > > I've heard not... In fact I've heard most do not produce > > mycotoxins. > > > What's the story? > > > > > > > > > 2. Do all molds which can produce mycotoxins produce these > toxins > > > during a regular life cycle? > > > I understand not... that mycotoxins are generally a defensive > > > mechanism produced by some molds only when triggered to produce > > the > > > toxins. Thus some molds might never be triggered to produce > > toxins. > > > If so when are our household molds toxic? > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. I used to believe mycotoxins are a vapor or gas. I've been > > told > > > not so they are a fine particulate .... a fine powder. > > > If so why couldn't a filtering system be relied on to filter out > > the > > > mycotoxins that are a household hazard??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. I used to believe all mycotoxins were poisons.. or at least > > so > > > to humans... > > > I now have heard not so that few mycotoxins are toxic to humans > > that > > > probably more varieties are beneficial... with antibiotic > > > characteristics. What are the facts?? > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Do all poisonous mycotoxins effect humans equally? or must > > > humans be susceptible to the toxin? Are there degrees of > immunity > > > to mycotoxins? How does one fight off a mycotoxin poisoning? > > > > > > > > > > > > Can someone shed light on the true story of mycotoxins. If we > have > > > any good experts on the subject maybe someone would like to > write > > a > > > book? > > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Yes mold spores are everywhere, but not colonies of mold giving off toxin. when mold grows inside, usually unseen between the walls for years, it is not out in nature, where it would have normal checks to growth. Groth of mold colonies inside result in illness > > > A defensive weapon, yes- As i have said before , I never > recommend > > > anyone try and kill a colony of mold with an ozonator, or > anything > > > else - My husband refused to let me dump 2 moldy couches, I let a > > > very strong ozonator rip in there all night- I came in the next > > > morning to a mycotoxin release that nearly killed me- and ruined > > > all my art work > > > > > > In , " kengibs " <jkg4902@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 I hired a handy man. One I knew, and talked to for a long time about the problems. I didn't know much about mold, only that it was making me very sick, and it had to go. I had couple of problem areas knew about: In the upstairs bathroom, mold was behind the shower tile. I deduced this from trail and error, cleaning it. The other problem I knew about was a side room off the main basement room, whose door I kept shut. The handy man looked around down there and suggested I might want to consider tearing out everything in the basement down to the cement walls (it had been 3/4 finished) and refinish the walls. He thought the bath should be taken out too. I was not in a position to follow his suggestions at the time- the basement was FULL of our belongings. Most of the possessions down there were either thrown away, or moved to the garage, I still have a few things that need to be moved. In the side room, all the built in shelves etc, and everything on them had to be thrown. They were saturated with yucky stuff I was reacting to, which I later learned were mycotoxins. In my research, I found that ozone kills mold, and it is a powerful oxidizer, which can be very good for detoxifying, I thought. I have also found out that they can be dangerous to use, so you have to be very careful about both how you use it and what kind you buy. Since it is experimental, sort of, there are no rules governing the sale or manufacture of these machines, and the snake oil salesmen are out in droves promoting them. Many kinds seem inferior to me. I really relied on my instincts, combined with recommendations from people online and in person that had experience with them. I bought one unit, and I move it around as needed. I am not using it much anymore, just for particular uses. Oh, my doctor (MD) recommended the idea to me. For killing mold while I was out of the house, AFTER I remediated. My husband thinks I am nuts too. It really makes it harder to get this work done, doesn't it? If you want more info, you can contact me offgroup. kathryn > > > > > > > > There are a number of questions I haven't fully understood. > > Maybe > > > > someone could help by explaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Do all molds produce mycotoxins? > > > > I've heard not... In fact I've heard most do not produce > > > mycotoxins. > > > > What's the story? > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Do all molds which can produce mycotoxins produce these > > toxins > > > > during a regular life cycle? > > > > I understand not... that mycotoxins are generally a defensive > > > > mechanism produced by some molds only when triggered to produce > > > the > > > > toxins. Thus some molds might never be triggered to produce > > > toxins. > > > > If so when are our household molds toxic? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. I used to believe mycotoxins are a vapor or gas. I've been > > > told > > > > not so they are a fine particulate .... a fine powder. > > > > If so why couldn't a filtering system be relied on to filter out > > > the > > > > mycotoxins that are a household hazard??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. I used to believe all mycotoxins were poisons.. or at least > > > so > > > > to humans... > > > > I now have heard not so that few mycotoxins are toxic to humans > > > that > > > > probably more varieties are beneficial... with antibiotic > > > > characteristics. What are the facts?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Do all poisonous mycotoxins effect humans equally? or must > > > > humans be susceptible to the toxin? Are there degrees of > > immunity > > > > to mycotoxins? How does one fight off a mycotoxin poisoning? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can someone shed light on the true story of mycotoxins. If we > > have > > > > any good experts on the subject maybe someone would like to > > write > > > a > > > > book? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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