Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Sharron, yes, I've seen Les' technique and results. It shows great promise for chronic pain. I also would recommend Yoga. Sears has developed some great protocols for this. I've attended several of his classes. I've sent patients to them as well. Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 1/9/2008 12:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, sharronf@... writes: Does anyone know if there is a specific and detailed Chriopractic protocol to address and prevent this ? s. fuchs dc Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 All, missing from all this discussion and the article itself is the term: "Centrally Mediated Pain". Altho it's described in the article; Pain generated from the central nervous system, no one names it as such. There is much new ( last 5-7 yrs-don't quote me on this, it could be 10 yrs) research on this topic. Pain that originates from the central nervous system explains this seemingly inexplicable complex of continuing pain that we often see following trauma. I realize this is a controversial definition and I've even heard some say they don't believe in centrally mediated pain. From the studies I've seen (especially the conference that Freeman organized about 3-7??? yrs ago), and the researchers I've spoken with, I believe there is lots of evidence pointing to this as the cause. Continuing pain signals reflex to the CNS and eventually can cross sides of the spinal cord, mixing the 'perceived pain'. Sadly this establishes new pains on the opposite, uninjured side of the body. The pain will eventually Originate within the CNS. There were numerous studies showing this, including double blind studies on 'induced' injuries. Seriously, medical students allowed small noxious stimulus to be applied in the form of electrical shocks over and over to a leg or arm. After a period of weeks, the opposite arm became symptomatic with zero trauma! It was fascinating. (I'm sure A will have fun with some good jokes about the subjects. can't wait.) And I may be over simplifying the studies. Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 1/9/2008 3:20:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, pdxchiroguy@... writes: I think I get what you are asking. How do we do BETTER what we already do better (in my opinion) than any other profession in regards to treating chronic pain and preventing neuroplastic changes. The short answer is to co-treat with other DC's, MD's, ND's, etc. Sometimes meds are needed so that conservative management may be persued. But I have to agree with Sunny, that if that gal had gone through one of us chiro's, her article would have been a lot different. The greatest error in the article, is the idea that there is nothing physically going on after many years, and it is just that the pain is "hard-wired" in the person. This is only partly true. When they see there MD, he looks at the MRI/X-RAY and says "you are fine". Meanwhile, at the chiro office the patient would here "your pervis is rotated, exernal femurs L>R, hyperkyphotic posture, posterior pelvic tilt, sublux at .......levels..., scapulae fixated in abduction...". The last point I will make is that lifestyle issues are WAY under treated. Pills cannot replace what a life out of balance creates. I hope this is the kind of thing you were looking for. Jay When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Sharon Talk to Les Fienberg. He's developed a technique that helps with chronic pain. Annette On Wednesday, January 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Sharron Fuchs wrote: > Does anyone know if there is a specific and detailed Chriopractic > protocol to address and prevent this ? > > > > s. fuchs dc > > > > > > > <image.tiff> > > > From: [mailto: ] On > Behalf OfSharron Fuchs > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:02 PM > > Subject: When pain takes over > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22494294/ > > > > > > > > s. fuchs dc > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Does anyone know if there is a specific and detailed Chriopractic protocol to address and prevent this ? s. fuchs dc From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron Fuchs Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:02 PM Subject: When pain takes over http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22494294/ s. fuchs dc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Sharon, I want to add a little more information. My personal experience with this technique was about three years ago. I had been suffering with pain in my left forearm at the interoseous membrane for over three years. You know I had consulted with great practitioners, both chiropractors and otherwise. No effect. I would wake up at night with the pain and I was beginning to wonder if I had to stop working. Not a good thing. I started getting treatment from Mark and he used Les Feinberg's NMT on me. One treatment and I left the office pain-free. After three years of constant pain. Now I've learned this technique, which has been a challenge for me, and I use it as a regular part of my practice. I don't always have instant cures for pain like I experienced, but I do have some impressive little miracles to add to my list of chiropractic miracles regularly. Folks, this is a technique that uses the principles of chiropractic then amps them up with the principles of energy medicine. I still use my chiropractic assessment and treatment skills with every patient, and I add some aspect of NMT with nearly every treatment I do. Please look into this method. Annette On Wednesday, January 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Sharron Fuchs wrote: > Does anyone know if there is a specific and detailed Chriopractic > protocol to address and prevent this ? > > > > s. fuchs dc > > > > > > > <image.tiff> > > > From: [mailto: ] On > Behalf OfSharron Fuchs > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:02 PM > > Subject: When pain takes over > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22494294/ > > > > > > > > s. fuchs dc > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Thanks for the insight. I would like to see a specific protocol for this so it can be prevented and also to use for furthering our cause for Chiropractic care. s. fuchs dc From: Annette Simard [mailto:drsimard@...] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:18 PM Sharron Fuchs Cc: Subject: Re: When pain takes over Sharon, I want to add a little more information. My personal experience with this technique was about three years ago. I had been suffering with pain in my left forearm at the interoseous membrane for over three years. You know I had consulted with great practitioners, both chiropractors and otherwise. No effect. I would wake up at night with the pain and I was beginning to wonder if I had to stop working. Not a good thing. I started getting treatment from Mark and he used Les Feinberg's NMT on me. One treatment and I left the office pain-free. After three years of constant pain. Now I've learned this technique, which has been a challenge for me, and I use it as a regular part of my practice. I don't always have instant cures for pain like I experienced, but I do have some impressive little miracles to add to my list of chiropractic miracles regularly. Folks, this is a technique that uses the principles of chiropractic then amps them up with the principles of energy medicine. I still use my chiropractic assessment and treatment skills with every patient, and I add some aspect of NMT with nearly every treatment I do. Please look into this method. Annette On Wednesday, January 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Sharron Fuchs wrote: Does anyone know if there is a specific and detailed Chriopractic protocol to address and prevent this ? s. fuchs dc <image.tiff> From: [mailto: ] On Behalf OfSharron Fuchs Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:02 PM To: Subject: When pain takes over http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22494294/ s. fuchs dc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Are you asking for a specific protocol for chronic pain and the psychological effects of chronic pain? Lindekugel, DC5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211503-287-2273 When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I am thinking of a day one checklist to consider the injury, the complications of the injury including CNS changes and a whole array of tools to treat pain – along with the adjustment to rid the lesion / cause – so as to prevent chronic pain syndrome from developing. I know I am not saying this correctly – perhaps there is something like this already ? I would also think a patient handout addressing the development and prevention of this would be good. Am I close ? s. fuchs dc From: Lindekugel [mailto:pdxchiroguy@...] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:50 PM Sharron Fuchs Cc: Subject: Re: When pain takes over Are you asking for a specific protocol for chronic pain and the psychological effects of chronic pain? Lindekugel, DC 5425 NE 33rd Ave. Portland Or. 97211 503-287-2273 When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Once again, if this lady had been referred to the chiro arena, much of her time in pain would be decreased. You all know we routinely find things on imaging that MDs to not despite all of their workup. We all know, much of this lady's symptomatology could be downtrended with adjusting....not to mention the nutrition and auxillary care we all provide. How sad for her. Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C Eugene, Oregon, 97401 541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955 From: sharronf@...Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:02:14 -0800Subject: When pain takes over http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22494294/ s. fuchs dc Watch “Cause Effect,” a show about real people making a real difference. Learn more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Annette's suggestion of Les's work is excellent. Carol McMaking's microcurrent is unparalleled in what it can to do assist downtrending chronic pain. Technique would hlep enormously The protocols I have developed here are working very well. Just plain old full-body adjusting (including blocking the pelvis of course) would help. our profession has a huge amount of help for her. Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C Eugene, Oregon, 97401 541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955 From: sharronf@...Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:04:10 -0800Subject: RE: When pain takes over Does anyone know if there is a specific and detailed Chriopractic protocol to address and prevent this ? s. fuchs dc From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:02 PM Subject: When pain takes over http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22494294/ s. fuchs dc Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. Get it now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I think I get what you are asking. How do we do BETTER what we already do better (in my opinion) than any other profession in regards to treating chronic pain and preventing neuroplastic changes. The short answer is to co-treat with other DC's, MD's, ND's, etc. Sometimes meds are needed so that conservative management may be persued. But I have to agree with Sunny, that if that gal had gone through one of us chiro's, her article would have been a lot different. The greatest error in the article, is the idea that there is nothing physically going on after many years, and it is just that the pain is "hard-wired" in the person. This is only partly true. When they see there MD, he looks at the MRI/X-RAY and says "you are fine". Meanwhile, at the chiro office the patient would here "your pervis is rotated, exernal femurs L>R, hyperkyphotic posture, posterior pelvic tilt, sublux at .......levels..., scapulae fixated in abduction...". The last point I will make is that lifestyle issues are WAY under treated. Pills cannot replace what a life out of balance creates. I hope this is the kind of thing you were looking for. Jay When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Yes, and also with a written pamphlet for marketing and patient education. And then a separate doctor protocol for prevention and treatment. s. fuchs dc From: Lindekugel [mailto:pdxchiroguy@...] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:01 PM Sharron Fuchs Cc: Subject: Re: When pain takes over I think I get what you are asking. How do we do BETTER what we already do better (in my opinion) than any other profession in regards to treating chronic pain and preventing neuroplastic changes. The short answer is to co-treat with other DC's, MD's, ND's, etc. Sometimes meds are needed so that conservative management may be persued. But I have to agree with Sunny, that if that gal had gone through one of us chiro's, her article would have been a lot different. The greatest error in the article, is the idea that there is nothing physically going on after many years, and it is just that the pain is " hard-wired " in the person. This is only partly true. When they see there MD, he looks at the MRI/X-RAY and says " you are fine " . Meanwhile, at the chiro office the patient would here " your pervis is rotated, exernal femurs L>R, hyperkyphotic posture, posterior pelvic tilt, sublux at .......levels..., scapulae fixated in abduction... " . The last point I will make is that lifestyle issues are WAY under treated. Pills cannot replace what a life out of balance creates. I hope this is the kind of thing you were looking for. Jay When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I agree that the correct terms should be used but I did interpret the article to be describing this. I still would like to know how to prevent it. For instance, while Chiropractic care is taking its course should the patient be taking 1-2 aspirin every 4 hours or another type of pain aid to quell it ? Don’t kill me but would this help or not ? s. fuchs dc From: AboWoman@... [mailto:AboWoman@...] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:37 PM pdxchiroguy@...; Sharron Fuchs Cc: Subject: Re: When pain takes over All, missing from all this discussion and the article itself is the term: " Centrally Mediated Pain " . Altho it's described in the article; Pain generated from the central nervous system, no one names it as such. There is much new ( last 5-7 yrs-don't quote me on this, it could be 10 yrs) research on this topic. Pain that originates from the central nervous system explains this seemingly inexplicable complex of continuing pain that we often see following trauma. I realize this is a controversial definition and I've even heard some say they don't believe in centrally mediated pain. From the studies I've seen (especially the conference that Freeman organized about 3-7??? yrs ago), and the researchers I've spoken with, I believe there is lots of evidence pointing to this as the cause. Continuing pain signals reflex to the CNS and eventually can cross sides of the spinal cord, mixing the 'perceived pain'. Sadly this establishes new pains on the opposite, uninjured side of the body. The pain will eventually Originate within the CNS. There were numerous studies showing this, including double blind studies on 'induced' injuries. Seriously, medical students allowed small noxious stimulus to be applied in the form of electrical shocks over and over to a leg or arm. After a period of weeks, the opposite arm became symptomatic with zero trauma! It was fascinating. (I'm sure A will have fun with some good jokes about the subjects. can't wait.) And I may be over simplifying the studies. Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 1/9/2008 3:20:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, pdxchiroguy@... writes: I think I get what you are asking. How do we do BETTER what we already do better (in my opinion) than any other profession in regards to treating chronic pain and preventing neuroplastic changes. The short answer is to co-treat with other DC's, MD's, ND's, etc. Sometimes meds are needed so that conservative management may be persued. But I have to agree with Sunny, that if that gal had gone through one of us chiro's, her article would have been a lot different. The greatest error in the article, is the idea that there is nothing physically going on after many years, and it is just that the pain is " hard-wired " in the person. This is only partly true. When they see there MD, he looks at the MRI/X-RAY and says " you are fine " . Meanwhile, at the chiro office the patient would here " your pervis is rotated, exernal femurs L>R, hyperkyphotic posture, posterior pelvic tilt, sublux at .......levels..., scapulae fixated in abduction... " . The last point I will make is that lifestyle issues are WAY under treated. Pills cannot replace what a life out of balance creates. I hope this is the kind of thing you were looking for. Jay ----- Original Message ---- From: Sharron Fuchs <sharronftdinjurylaw> Lindekugel <pdxchiroguy > Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2008 1:18:28 PM Subject: RE: When pain takes over I am thinking of a day one checklist to consider the injury, the complications of the injury including CNS changes and a whole array of tools to treat pain – along with the adjustment to rid the lesion / cause – so as to prevent chronic pain syndrome from developing. I know I am not saying this correctly – perhaps there is something like this already ? I would also think a patient handout addressing the development and prevention of this would be good. Am I close ? s. fuchs dc From: Lindekugel [mailto:pdxchiroguy @] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:50 PM Sharron Fuchs Cc: @grou ps.com Subject: Re: When pain takes over Are you asking for a specific protocol for chronic pain and the psychological effects of chronic pain? Lindekugel, DC 5425 NE 33rd Ave. Portland Or. 97211 503-287-2273 When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Thanks for bringing up this centralization issue. We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg as Boomers age.... The case study identifies 10-20% of traumatic injuries leading to CNS chronicity, but I think we can see it's relative effects in most patients. Any condition that limits normal ROM secondary to pain sets it up, and as we compensate for even minor injuries, we establish relationships to gravity and movement patterns that perpetuate the condition. Most of us suffer from this degenerative condition to some extent.Sounds pretty chiropractic to me: lessen the pain, re-establish normal ROM, prescribe appropriate foods to lessen inflammation and support global homeostasis, AND have a simple, accessible, effective physical protocol that can be done daily to bring the locus of control of pain into the hands of the patient. When patients learn how to control their pain levels in the moment, suffering begins to go away. This new capacity, in turn, leads to even more patient responsibility for their own well-being. As we free up the body's energy from inappropriate muscular and NS activity, it converts to self-healing in other pressing ways.The profession needs a simple daily protocol of stretches (if you will), combined with mindfulness (attention to inner body functioning) using the higher mental functions (our intent and volition) to over-ride inappropriate lower NS dysfunctions. Something similar to "Brushing for Good Health" for dentists....The Wellness Revolution is about bringing the locus of control to the patient. Chiropractic is well suited to lead the way. Sears, DCwww.docbones.comNW PDX On Jan 9, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Sharron Fuchs wrote:Yes, and also with a written pamphlet for marketing and patient education. And then a separate doctor protocol for prevention and treatment. s. fuchs dc From: Lindekugel [mailto:pdxchiroguy ] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:01 PMTo: Sharron FuchsCc: Subject: Re: When pain takes over I think I get what you are asking. How do we do BETTER what we already do better (in my opinion) than any other profession in regards to treating chronic pain and preventing neuroplastic changes. The short answer is to co-treat with other DC's, MD's, ND's, etc. Sometimes meds are needed so that conservative management may be persued. But I have to agree with Sunny, that if that gal had gone through one of us chiro's, her article would have been a lot different. The greatest error in the article, is the idea that there is nothing physically going on after many years, and it is just that the pain is "hard-wired" in the person. This is only partly true. When they see there MD, he looks at the MRI/X-RAY and says "you are fine". Meanwhile, at the chiro office the patient would here "your pervis is rotated, exernal femurs L>R, hyperkyphotic posture, posterior pelvic tilt, sublux at .......levels..., scapulae fixated in abduction...". The last point I will make is that lifestyle issues are WAY under treated. Pills cannot replace what a life out of balance creates. I hope this is the kind of thing you were looking for. Jay When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Most all of the major techniques have those types of brochures generically developed. the problem we don't have any thing that speaks generically of the results and benefits of chiropracitic care...certainly not one that can be used nationally or even regionally. When more of our field docs could/would join their state organization, we in the CAO (one of our state organizations) could (afford to) consider the development of such a helpful document. that seems to me to be a very worthy state project. Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C Eugene, Oregon, 97401 541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955 CC: From: sharronf@...Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:05:58 -0800Subject: RE: When pain takes over Yes, and also with a written pamphlet for marketing and patient education. And then a separate doctor protocol for prevention and treatment. s. fuchs dc From: Lindekugel [mailto:pdxchiroguy ] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:01 PMSharron FuchsCc: Subject: Re: When pain takes over I think I get what you are asking. How do we do BETTER what we already do better (in my opinion) than any other profession in regards to treating chronic pain and preventing neuroplastic changes. The short answer is to co-treat with other DC's, MD's, ND's, etc. Sometimes meds are needed so that conservative management may be persued. But I have to agree with Sunny, that if that gal had gone through one of us chiro's, her article would have been a lot different. The greatest error in the article, is the idea that there is nothing physically going on after many years, and it is just that the pain is "hard-wired" in the person. This is only partly true. When they see there MD, he looks at the MRI/X-RAY and says "you are fine". Meanwhile, at the chiro office the patient would here "your pervis is rotated, exernal femurs L>R, hyperkyphotic posture, posterior pelvic tilt, sublux at .......levels..., scapulae fixated in abduction...". The last point I will make is that lifestyle issues are WAY under treated. Pills cannot replace what a life out of balance creates. I hope this is the kind of thing you were looking for. Jay When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. Start now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Minga, It doesn't seem to me that you are simplifying this, especially after the excellent research Micheal has added to the mix. and it is why I love what the microcurrent has added to my practice. The protocols that Carol McMakin is compiling are sometimes stunning (okay, ... have fun with that one) in the results we watch occur. Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C Eugene, Oregon, 97401 541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955 pdxchiroguy@...; sharronf@...CC: From: AboWoman@...Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:37:11 -0500Subject: Re: When pain takes over All, missing from all this discussion and the article itself is the term: "Centrally Mediated Pain". Altho it's described in the article; Pain generated from the central nervous system, no one names it as such. There is much new ( last 5-7 yrs-don't quote me on this, it could be 10 yrs) research on this topic. Pain that originates from the central nervous system explains this seemingly inexplicable complex of continuing pain that we often see following trauma. I realize this is a controversial definition and I've even heard some say they don't believe in centrally mediated pain. From the studies I've seen (especially the conference that Freeman organized about 3-7??? yrs ago), and the researchers I've spoken with, I believe there is lots of evidence pointing to this as the cause. Continuing pain signals reflex to the CNS and eventually can cross sides of the spinal cord, mixing the 'perceived pain'. Sadly this establishes new pains on the opposite, uninjured side of the body. The pain will eventually Originate within the CNS. There were numerous studies showing this, including double blind studies on 'induced' injuries. Seriously, medical students allowed small noxious stimulus to be applied in the form of electrical shocks over and over to a leg or arm. After a period of weeks, the opposite arm became symptomatic with zero trauma! It was fascinating. (I'm sure A will have fun with some good jokes about the subjects. can't wait.) And I may be over simplifying the studies. Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 1/9/2008 3:20:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, pdxchiroguy writes: I think I get what you are asking. How do we do BETTER what we already do better (in my opinion) than any other profession in regards to treating chronic pain and preventing neuroplastic changes. The short answer is to co-treat with other DC's, MD's, ND's, etc. Sometimes meds are needed so that conservative management may be persued. But I have to agree with Sunny, that if that gal had gone through one of us chiro's, her article would have been a lot different. The greatest error in the article, is the idea that there is nothing physically going on after many years, and it is just that the pain is "hard-wired" in the person. This is only partly true. When they see there MD, he looks at the MRI/X-RAY and says "you are fine". Meanwhile, at the chiro office the patient would here "your pervis is rotated, exernal femurs L>R, hyperkyphotic posture, posterior pelvic tilt, sublux at .......levels..., scapulae fixated in abduction...". The last point I will make is that lifestyle issues are WAY under treated. Pills cannot replace what a life out of balance creates. I hope this is the kind of thing you were looking for. Jay When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Start sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 in my experience and in a word: NO. Nsaids often complicate chronic pain. What I notice is that the people who are newly diagnosed with FM and come to see me are MUCH easier to calm and reverse - they usually have only the structural concers of the chronic sacroiliac syndrome - which is what my research shows as the base to chronic FM. Two weeks of care and they are already on a distancing protocol. Adding the NSAIDS and other pharmaceuticals accumulates and seems to scar/fibrose muscle and contribute to organ dysfunction, making a person more toxic, lethargic, sleepless (and all that THAT component adds to any given picture), metabolically challenged. It is THOSE people that take me 8 - 12 months to clean up. what seems to make a difference is the visit-by-visit education provided from our office about how to counter and temper the effects of gravity, riding in vehicles, walking on concrete, improper posture, dietary changes, environmental changes, all the usual we all know so well. Patients learn that creating and using those patterns will do themost to keep themselves out of my office. Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C Eugene, Oregon, 97401 541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955 CC: From: sharronf@...Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:44:15 -0800Subject: RE: When pain takes over I agree that the correct terms should be used but I did interpret the article to be describing this. I still would like to know how to prevent it. For instance, while Chiropractic care is taking its course should the patient be taking 1-2 aspirin every 4 hours or another type of pain aid to quell it ? Don’t kill me but would this help or not ? s. fuchs dc From: AboWomanaol [mailto:AboWomanaol] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:37 PMpdxchiroguy ; Sharron FuchsCc: Subject: Re: When pain takes over All, missing from all this discussion and the article itself is the term: "Centrally Mediated Pain". Altho it's described in the article; Pain generated from the central nervous system, no one names it as such. There is much new ( last 5-7 yrs-don't quote me on this, it could be 10 yrs) research on this topic. Pain that originates from the central nervous system explains this seemingly inexplicable complex of continuing pain that we often see following trauma. I realize this is a controversial definition and I've even heard some say they don't believe in centrally mediated pain. From the studies I've seen (especially the conference that Freeman organized about 3-7??? yrs ago), and the researchers I've spoken with, I believe there is lots of evidence pointing to this as the cause. Continuing pain signals reflex to the CNS and eventually can cross sides of the spinal cord, mixing the 'perceived pain'. Sadly this establishes new pains on the opposite, uninjured side of the body. The pain will eventually Originate within the CNS. There were numerous studies showing this, including double blind studies on 'induced' injuries. Seriously, medical students allowed small noxious stimulus to be applied in the form of electrical shocks over and over to a leg or arm. After a period of weeks, the opposite arm became symptomatic with zero trauma! It was fascinating. (I'm sure A will have fun with some good jokes about the subjects. can't wait.) And I may be over simplifying the studies. Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 1/9/2008 3:20:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, pdxchiroguy writes: I think I get what you are asking. How do we do BETTER what we already do better (in my opinion) than any other profession in regards to treating chronic pain and preventing neuroplastic changes. The short answer is to co-treat with other DC's, MD's, ND's, etc. Sometimes meds are needed so that conservative management may be persued. But I have to agree with Sunny, that if that gal had gone through one of us chiro's, her article would have been a lot different. The greatest error in the article, is the idea that there is nothing physically going on after many years, and it is just that the pain is "hard-wired" in the person. This is only partly true. When they see there MD, he looks at the MRI/X-RAY and says "you are fine". Meanwhile, at the chiro office the patient would here "your pervis is rotated, exernal femurs L>R, hyperkyphotic posture, posterior pelvic tilt, sublux at .......levels..., scapulae fixated in abduction...". The last point I will make is that lifestyle issues are WAY under treated. Pills cannot replace what a life out of balance creates. I hope this is the kind of thing you were looking for. Jay When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. IMake distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. Start now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 There are no cut and dry answers here. You really need to use your clinical judgment. Has the person already been on meds? Do they actually need a medicine "Holiday"? Has any nutritional protocol been established? Have they been in pain for years? Has it only been a few months, but they are progressing well with your program, whatever it may be? What is the overall health of the patient, age etc. Your intake is your flow chart. Your clinical impression and prognosis is your best estimate. This article just lends a sense of urgency to mitigate symptoms. It should be noted that medicine is always looking only to mitigate symptoms. But you have other tools in your belt to treat the cause of pain through chiropractic and functional evaluation. I agree with what Sunny, this author would have written a very different article if she had seen a chiropractor. You already do what is needed by just being a chiropractor. If someone is not getting better, just send them to another chiropractor for eval/treat. As a group we have such a colorful palate of healing and pain mitigating tools. If that doesn't work, use a higher level (financially speaking) of eval like MRI and ortho eval. Jay When pain takes over http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 22494294/ s. fuchs dc Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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