Re: Neutralization and Provocation

[Guest guest]

, I will go far enough to say (since it has been discussed here many times

before anyway), that Shoemaker does focus on the toxins in particular, and the

ILA types found amongst us that prevent us from offloading them on our own. This

is in large part why I think you will find his book worth the read. Consider -

what if you could identify those of us with the " bad " genes before taking the

risks? Why can Shoemaker now accurately predict outcomes of genetic tests

through simple screening so many times before the results even come back? What

if we could be identified prior to the exposures in the first place? Where would

I be right now, if this had been known decades back? A zillion questions about

what might have happened, and more to be answered about how we can use this

information to make the future better.

I'm not intellectually up for any deep debate on the whole thing. I'm a lay

person from an unrelated scientific discipline. But at some point, it all

becomes pretty chicken and egg. Which begat what? Allergies first, or the

toxins? Do you want to treat the cause, or treat the symptoms, or something in

between, or all of them at once or in succession? Is there a safe pathway to

back out through the various layers of biotoxin-induced illness? As a patient,

what do you have to do to successfully run the gauntlet between the toxin-only

minded, the allergy-only minded, and the Great Debate between them - not to

mention all the oncologists, pulmonologists, rheumatologists, neurologists, and

other specialists in between who don't get either idea and just want to look at

their own favorite organs?

But what if, at some future point, you could easily identify the ILA type AND

treat the gene expression it engenders? That would be extremely cool, and the

ILA testing is already being done. At that point, perhaps the whole allergy vs.

toxins question could just go away altogether. (And if, at some point, we

stopped building these problems right into the buildings we inhabit and the

medicines we use, then so much the better. We figured out the lead and asbestos

thing. This one is next up, but first things first. It's hard to change the

world from your chair.)

Anyway, do go ahead and read the book. It doesn't attempt to answer all

questions. He's honest about what he hasn't figured out yet, and asks a lot of

new questions along the way. I would take it all as an enhancement to what you

already know - not an argument against it. If I can see this much in it, then

I'm sure you can see even more and maybe put it to good use. My own doctor read

it with already a good deal of experience treating people like us, saw the point

right off, began sharing it with colleagues, and they saw it as well. That's the

best review I think a book like this could possibly ask for. It'll be

interesting to hear what your thinking is, once you've read it yourself.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

[Guest guest]

Serena, What is the point you speak of? Loni

SERENA EDWARDS <pushcrash@...> wrote: , I will go far enough to say

(since it has been discussed here many times before anyway), that Shoemaker does

focus on the toxins in particular, and the ILA types found amongst us that

prevent us from offloading them on our own. This is in large part why I think

you will find his book worth the read. Consider - what if you could identify

those of us with the " bad " genes before taking the risks? Why can Shoemaker now

accurately predict outcomes of genetic tests through simple screening so many

times before the results even come back? What if we could be identified prior to

the exposures in the first place? Where would I be right now, if this had been

known decades back? A zillion questions about what might have happened, and more

to be answered about how we can use this information to make the future better.

I'm not intellectually up for any deep debate on the whole thing. I'm a lay

person from an unrelated scientific discipline. But at some point, it all

becomes pretty chicken and egg. Which begat what? Allergies first, or the

toxins? Do you want to treat the cause, or treat the symptoms, or something in

between, or all of them at once or in succession? Is there a safe pathway to

back out through the various layers of biotoxin-induced illness? As a patient,

what do you have to do to successfully run the gauntlet between the toxin-only

minded, the allergy-only minded, and the Great Debate between them - not to

mention all the oncologists, pulmonologists, rheumatologists, neurologists, and

other specialists in between who don't get either idea and just want to look at

their own favorite organs?

But what if, at some future point, you could easily identify the ILA type AND

treat the gene expression it engenders? That would be extremely cool, and the

ILA testing is already being done. At that point, perhaps the whole allergy vs.

toxins question could just go away altogether. (And if, at some point, we

stopped building these problems right into the buildings we inhabit and the

medicines we use, then so much the better. We figured out the lead and asbestos

thing. This one is next up, but first things first. It's hard to change the

world from your chair.)

Anyway, do go ahead and read the book. It doesn't attempt to answer all

questions. He's honest about what he hasn't figured out yet, and asks a lot of

new questions along the way. I would take it all as an enhancement to what you

already know - not an argument against it. If I can see this much in it, then

I'm sure you can see even more and maybe put it to good use. My own doctor read

it with already a good deal of experience treating people like us, saw the point

right off, began sharing it with colleagues, and they saw it as well. That's the

best review I think a book like this could possibly ask for. It'll be

interesting to hear what your thinking is, once you've read it yourself.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

[Guest guest]

Could you explain neutralization & provocation by s. injection?? Loni

LISA NAGY <lisa@...> wrote: Carl. I still need to understand one

specific thing. Does Dr. Shoemaker do

neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection? That is the main

thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

And to answer the moderator's question I thought I was answering Kim but

I may have been mistaken. I think people should stop using the word

'trashing' a physician. I am not saying Rea is amazing and Shoemaker isn't.

I am saying that the principals focused on by Environmental Docs is often

skipped by the other guys. I am a patient that had a severe exposure to

trichothecene and responded well to environmental controls (including crown

removal) and chemical , inhalants and foods shots. There is no fault or

patients who get worse or not better with the best treatment available they

are just really sick. Many patients will not be able to get that much

better. I understand the insurance thing is ridiculous. I agree. I paid

all cash and I am broke. But I will work again. I will have earning

potential again which will offset the expense. Better to pay cash for

antigen therapy than to be thrifty and skip it -- FOR SURE.

I have a friend who had lots of food intolerances. She got worse on ALF

and perhaps worse on antigen shots. But that is supposedly rare. It is not

anyone's fault she reacted negatively to those treatments but her own. It

is her genetics and her exposure history that determined that. She doesn't

trash Rea for that failure to respond. I am not trying to do anything but

advise people so they do not step into pitfalls like the lure of

inexpensive, insurance covered, treatment that skips neutralization if

indicated. You guys are incorrect about the misperception of Mycotoxicosis

as a purely allergic problem by Dr.s in Dallas. They wouldn't have had the

annual meeting about molds and mycotoxins in 2003 if they thought it was so

simple. We all know it is a toxic problem. Rea doesn't think we are

allergic to chemicals -- we are immunologically, cellularly and

neurologically poisoned by them. Trichothecenes damage mitochondria in rats

and that has been in the literature a number of times as well as written

about by Wanamaker.

Nagy M.D.

P.O. Box 2472

Vineyard Haven, Mass 02568

(508) 693-3048

(310) 213- 5472 (Cell-Important Calls)

<mailto:Calls@...> @...

[Guest guest]

If I could answer all that in a couple of paragraphs, I would. But mainly, that

there are more things going on than allergy, and a lot of info on how the

biotoxin pathway works. Have you got that book?

Rosser <rossercustomhomes@...> wrote: Serena, What is the point you

speak of? Loni

SERENA EDWARDS <pushcrash@...> wrote: , I will go far enough to say

(since it has been discussed here many times before anyway), that Shoemaker does

focus on the toxins in particular, and the ILA types found amongst us that

prevent us from offloading them on our own. This is in large part why I think

you will find his book worth the read. Consider - what if you could identify

those of us with the " bad " genes before taking the risks? Why can Shoemaker now

accurately predict outcomes of genetic tests through simple screening so many

times before the results even come back? What if we could be identified prior to

the exposures in the first place? Where would I be right now, if this had been

known decades back? A zillion questions about what might have happened, and more

to be answered about how we can use this information to make the future better.

I'm not intellectually up for any deep debate on the whole thing. I'm a lay

person from an unrelated scientific discipline. But at some point, it all

becomes pretty chicken and egg. Which begat what? Allergies first, or the

toxins? Do you want to treat the cause, or treat the symptoms, or something in

between, or all of them at once or in succession? Is there a safe pathway to

back out through the various layers of biotoxin-induced illness? As a patient,

what do you have to do to successfully run the gauntlet between the toxin-only

minded, the allergy-only minded, and the Great Debate between them - not to

mention all the oncologists, pulmonologists, rheumatologists, neurologists, and

other specialists in between who don't get either idea and just want to look at

their own favorite organs?

But what if, at some future point, you could easily identify the ILA type AND

treat the gene expression it engenders? That would be extremely cool, and the

ILA testing is already being done. At that point, perhaps the whole allergy vs.

toxins question could just go away altogether. (And if, at some point, we

stopped building these problems right into the buildings we inhabit and the

medicines we use, then so much the better. We figured out the lead and asbestos

thing. This one is next up, but first things first. It's hard to change the

world from your chair.)

Anyway, do go ahead and read the book. It doesn't attempt to answer all

questions. He's honest about what he hasn't figured out yet, and asks a lot of

new questions along the way. I would take it all as an enhancement to what you

already know - not an argument against it. If I can see this much in it, then

I'm sure you can see even more and maybe put it to good use. My own doctor read

it with already a good deal of experience treating people like us, saw the point

right off, began sharing it with colleagues, and they saw it as well. That's the

best review I think a book like this could possibly ask for. It'll be

interesting to hear what your thinking is, once you've read it yourself.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

[Guest guest]

So, I am confused. If you agree mycotoxin is a poisoning, why do you

want injections for allergy?, I tried that pocket emptying therapy,

but it only made me sicker.

> Carl. I still need to understand one specific thing. Does

Dr. Shoemaker do

> neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection? That is

the main

> thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

> And to answer the moderator's question I thought I was

answering Kim but

> I may have been mistaken. I think people should stop using the

word

> 'trashing' a physician. I am not saying Rea is amazing and

Shoemaker isn't.

> I am saying that the principals focused on by Environmental Docs

is often

> skipped by the other guys. I am a patient that had a severe

exposure to

> trichothecene and responded well to environmental controls

(including crown

> removal) and chemical , inhalants and foods shots. There is no

fault or

> patients who get worse or not better with the best treatment

available they

> are just really sick. Many patients will not be able to get that

much

> better. I understand the insurance thing is ridiculous. I

agree. I paid

> all cash and I am broke. But I will work again. I will have

earning

> potential again which will offset the expense. Better to pay cash

for

> antigen therapy than to be thrifty and skip it -- FOR SURE.

> I have a friend who had lots of food intolerances. She got

worse on ALF

> and perhaps worse on antigen shots. But that is supposedly rare.

It is not

> anyone's fault she reacted negatively to those treatments but her

own. It

> is her genetics and her exposure history that determined that.

She doesn't

> trash Rea for that failure to respond. I am not trying to do

anything but

> advise people so they do not step into pitfalls like the lure of

> inexpensive, insurance covered, treatment that skips

neutralization if

> indicated. You guys are incorrect about the misperception of

Mycotoxicosis

> as a purely allergic problem by Dr.s in Dallas. They wouldn't

have had the

> annual meeting about molds and mycotoxins in 2003 if they thought

it was so

> simple. We all know it is a toxic problem. Rea doesn't think we

are

> allergic to chemicals -- we are immunologically, cellularly and

> neurologically poisoned by them. Trichothecenes damage

mitochondria in rats

> and that has been in the literature a number of times as well as

written

> about by Wanamaker.

>

>

> Nagy M.D.

> P.O. Box 2472

> Vineyard Haven, Mass 02568

> (508) 693-3048

> (310) 213- 5472 (Cell-Important Calls)

>

> <mailto:Calls@N...> @N...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The discovery of anaphylaxis

At the turn of the 20th century, two French immunologists,

R. Richet, MD, and Portier, MD, were commissioned by Prince

Albert of Monaco to investigate skin lesions caused by toxins from

Portuguese Man-of-Wars, a type of venomous marine animal. The

scientists were instructed to prepare an antiserum.

To test their antiserum, Richet and Portier immunized dogs with two

injections, but after the second injections, the dogs became

seriously ill. They had difficulty breathing and had bloody

diarrhea. Eventually, the dogs went into shock and died. Upon their

second exposure, the dogs had a serious allergic reaction. Richet

then coined the term anaphylaxis, derived from the Greek word

for " without protection. " (This was in contrast to prophylaxis,

meaning " in favor of protection. " )

At about the same time, Clemens P.F. von Pirquet, MD, was preparing

sera and discovered another type of allergic disorder, which he

called serum sickness. He coined the term allergy, which

means " altered reactivity. "

[Guest guest]

,

What difference does it make? Some people are helped by it and others

aren't. If I can be helped I'd want my doc to do it. If I can't, then

I want him to offer treatment options. What is more important to me

is can he tell the difference between those that can and those that

can't? Specifically, can he determine that for ME?

If the doctor only offers a single response then he will only be

occasionally correct. That's part of what I meant about how each has

his own preference and strengths.

I went through the provocation/neutralization process for diagnostics

25 years ago. I tried the shots but couldn't handle them. So I was

given the sublingual drops. It was better because a few helped but

most made me even sicker like the shots did. So I quit both and my

doctor offered alternatives. Can you imagine alternatives that far

back into the dark ages of environmental sensitivity? I was extremely

lucky.

A KEY point about all this is the individuality of each of us. That

is my first criteria in evaluating any product or service. If it

won't acknowldege and honor my specifically individual needs I stop

right there. I just switched dentists, for example, because the one

that helped save my life 23 years ago (electrical properties of

dental fillings and crowns) - and was a huge benefit to several

hundred of my clients - stopped honoring my experience. As soon as he

did, he made a mistake that cost me money and teeth.

Again, read Shoemaker's book, web site and the study I sent you. That

will answer a lot of your questions. What we need is the freedom to

discover and the freedom to choose. Full disclosure is required for

the former and self-determination for the latter.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl. I still need to understand one specific thing. Does Dr.

> Shoemaker do neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection?

> That is the main thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

> And to answer the moderator's question I thought I was answering

> Kim but

> I may have been mistaken. I think people should stop using the word

> 'trashing' a physician. I am not saying Rea is amazing and Shoemaker

> isn't. I am saying that the principals focused on by Environmental

> Docs is often skipped by the other guys. I am a patient that had a

> severe exposure to trichothecene and responded well to environmental

> controls (including crown removal) and chemical , inhalants and foods

> shots. There is no fault or patients who get worse or not better with

> the best treatment available they are just really sick. Many patients

> will not be able to get that much better. I understand the insurance

> thing is ridiculous. I agree. I paid all cash and I am broke. But I

> will work again. I will have earning potential again which will offset

> the expense. Better to pay cash for antigen therapy than to be thrifty

> and skip it -- FOR SURE.

> I have a friend who had lots of food intolerances. She got worse

> on ALF

> and perhaps worse on antigen shots. But that is supposedly rare. It

> is not anyone's fault she reacted negatively to those treatments but

> her own. It is her genetics and her exposure history that determined

> that. She doesn't trash Rea for that failure to respond. I am not

> trying to do anything but advise people so they do not step into

> pitfalls like the lure of inexpensive, insurance covered, treatment

> that skips neutralization if indicated. You guys are incorrect about

> the misperception of Mycotoxicosis as a purely allergic problem by

> Dr.s in Dallas. They wouldn't have had the annual meeting about molds

> and mycotoxins in 2003 if they thought it was so simple. We all know

> it is a toxic problem. Rea doesn't think we are allergic to chemicals

> -- we are immunologically, cellularly and neurologically poisoned by

> them. Trichothecenes damage mitochondria in rats and that has been in

> the literature a number of times as well as written about by

> Wanamaker.

>

>

> Nagy M.D.

> P.O. Box 2472

> Vineyard Haven, Mass 02568

> (508) 693-3048

> (310) 213- 5472 (Cell-Important Calls)

>

> <mailto:Calls@...> @...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This isn't addressed to me, but I feel I must respond. My doc in Wisc does the P

& N

testing. He treats with sublinguals, which is probably the ONLY route I could

tolerate. I had

normal allergy shots (normal for the time, 1984) until I moved into this house,

which,

unknown to me had a mold problem, no water leaks at all, hidden behind the

shower tile.

After the move, I suddenly could not tolerate my shots. My very excellent doctor

was

retiring at the time, and his son was taking over, who thought it was " all in my

head " . His

training was EXTREMELY deficient, he was at the Uof Minn. So, I could not get

anyone to

help me figure out in a scientific way which of the several changes in my life

was

responsible for this change in my reactivity. As my background is in Geology, I

had good

grounding in scientific principles which I tried to use to figure it out.

If any one could categoriclly trash a group of drs, it would be Minnesota drs as

a group.

There is a very political group of drs, who have driven the Environmental

Doctors out of

buisness or out of the state, or perhaps, underground. They also have it in for

alternative

docs of all kinds, but the people of Minn love their chiropractors, so they have

had to stop

that part of their attack. It was on the ballot, I believe, or maybe at the

legislature. I am not

kidding- it is really serious.

Anyway, the main point I wanted to make was that many people may not be able to

tolerate the antigens shots due to their reactivity level. Also that Shoemaker

seems to be

able to cure people with out using allergy techniques at all, as far as I can

tell.

>

> Carl. I still need to understand one specific thing. Does Dr. Shoemaker do

> neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection? That is the main

> thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

> And to answer the moderator's question I thought I was answering Kim but

> I may have been mistaken. I think people should stop using the word

> 'trashing' a physician. I am not saying Rea is amazing and Shoemaker isn't.

> I am saying that the principals focused on by Environmental Docs is often

> skipped by the other guys. I am a patient that had a severe exposure to

> trichothecene and responded well to environmental controls (including crown

> removal) and chemical , inhalants and foods shots. There is no fault or

> patients who get worse or not better with the best treatment available they

> are just really sick. Many patients will not be able to get that much

> better. I understand the insurance thing is ridiculous. I agree. I paid

> all cash and I am broke. But I will work again. I will have earning

> potential again which will offset the expense. Better to pay cash for

> antigen therapy than to be thrifty and skip it -- FOR SURE.

> I have a friend who had lots of food intolerances. She got worse on ALF

> and perhaps worse on antigen shots. But that is supposedly rare. It is not

> anyone's fault she reacted negatively to those treatments but her own. It

> is her genetics and her exposure history that determined that. She doesn't

> trash Rea for that failure to respond. I am not trying to do anything but

> advise people so they do not step into pitfalls like the lure of

> inexpensive, insurance covered, treatment that skips neutralization if

> indicated. You guys are incorrect about the misperception of Mycotoxicosis

> as a purely allergic problem by Dr.s in Dallas. They wouldn't have had the

> annual meeting about molds and mycotoxins in 2003 if they thought it was so

> simple. We all know it is a toxic problem. Rea doesn't think we are

> allergic to chemicals -- we are immunologically, cellularly and

> neurologically poisoned by them. Trichothecenes damage mitochondria in rats

> and that has been in the literature a number of times as well as written

> about by Wanamaker.

>

>

> Nagy M.D.

> P.O. Box 2472

> Vineyard Haven, Mass 02568

> (508) 693-3048

> (310) 213- 5472 (Cell-Important Calls)

>

> <mailto:Calls@N...> @N...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think you are wondering what it is?

For literally decades, allergists have diagnosed allergies by injecting minute

amounts of

things people are commonly allergic to under the skin, usually the upper arm,

sometimes

the back or lower arm.

If there is an allergic reaction, the site of the test swells up, a " wheal " kind

of like a hive.

The diameter of the wheal is realted to the level of reactivity. This is the

provocation part

of the test. Some allergists stop there, and figure out the correct dilutions

for shots based

on this.

The Neutralization is when they continue refining the dose until they get to the

correct

dose to neutralize the reaction. This is what my doc did.

it is pretty cool to watch it in action. You see kids having reactions, and when

the

neutralization dose is given, the reactions subside. Very Cool.

The one of the limiting factors is having a large supply of stuff to test, along

with many

different dilutions of it.

It sounds like many people that suffer from mold exposure don't have any

allergies at all,

that it is the toxicity that is crashing the body instead. In that case, it

seems that this kind

of treatment would only increase the problems. But, they also would not have the

skin

reactions, either.

--- In , Rosser <rossercustomhomes@y...>

wrote:

>

> Could you explain neutralization & provocation by s. injection?? Loni

>

[Guest guest]

I have been a patient of Dr. Shoemaker's for 2 yrs. and I am 100% better

than I was when I first saw him. I have to tell you that I have suffered from

allergies on and off during my life. Mostly to dogs, cats, dust, pollen, some

molds, trees, grasses, feathers,weeds,tobacco and a few other things. I took

allergy shots as a young person, then in my mid twentys and then again about

7 yrs. ago. However, even taking the shots while at the school I still had

allergy problems. When I started to see Dr. S it certainly wasn't for

allergies, they were the least of my problems. I was having severe

muscle/joint

pain to the point I was limping, ice pick pains in my legs, nausea, memory

loss, slurred speech, racing heart, joint stiffness, temperature changes, daily

headaches, anxiety, ear pain, blurred vision and many other symptoms. Since

leaving my school and following Dr. Shoemaker's protocol all my symptoms are

gone! I don't take allergy shots or pills anymore and I have to say when I did

take them my arm would swell, itch,hurt & I would feel bad for days after the

injection. Dr. told me that was normal. I haven't had one sore throat,

cough, allergy problem, common cold or illness of any kind in two yrs.!!!!

While working at my school I had constant respiratory problems along with all

the

other symptoms, but they have all disappeared completely. I still get some

seasonal allergies during the spring & fall but it doesn't even require an

allergy pill anymore. I never again want allergy shots put into my system. I've

been poisoned enough & they certainly didn't help.

Sue

So, I am confused. If you agree mycotoxin is a poisoning, why do you

want injections for allergy?, I tried that pocket emptying therapy,

but it only made me sicker.

> Carl. I still need to understand one specific thing. Does

Dr. Shoemaker do

> neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection? That is

the main

> thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

[Guest guest]

I feel compelled to interject some of my opinions and questions about various

topics discussed recently including this one, and felt like this was a good

place to do so.

First, I think it is great that many have done so well on Dr. Shoemaker's

protocol. I think he is brilliant and if you are just having the toxic

reaction, don't have the multisusceptible genotype, and haven't been in the

environment too long, the protocol will work. I also think it depends upon the

type of toxins exposed to. They all work differently, and some cause permanent

damage if exposed too much. I also think that some of us who don't fit into the

exact pattern that he decribes or can't tolerate the CSM, may not be getting

the same " warm, fuzzy " feeling that those that do get from him. I think that

Dr. Shoemaker is a pioneer and should be applauded for his groundbreaking work

into biotoxin illness. Credit also needs to be given to Dr. Hudnell who

worked with him to develop the theory. They have both " unlocked the key " to why

many of us who have been devastated by the toxins are so ill. But remember,

according to his theory, only 25% of those exposed will

actually be affected by the toxins. So that leaves others who may not be

having the toxic reaction, but may be affected by the mold in other ways. For

instance, those who have an obvious immunodeficiency may not be having a toxic

reaction, but are actually more susceptible to serious infections by not only

the mold, but other microbes as well. The program might help, but without the

IVIG treatment, one would still be more susceptible to these serious infections.

I think this is rare, but it is obvious, it is the case with a few of the people

who have posted. Then there are those who may develop hypersenstivity

pneumonitis, which is also rare, who would not be helped by the detox protocol

at all, and may actually get worse if not diagnosed correctly.

Then finally, on to the allergy neutalization question. My understanding is

that this is only effective if you are actually allergic to the mold. which I am

sure is the case with some of the people who post If you are actually allergic

(IgE, not IgG reaction), then this could be life saving and a very important

part of treatment. I also took allergy shots for years, but didn't see any

improvement except that where I showed allergic to many things including mold,

at one time, don't show allergic to anything now. Also, from what I understand,

the treatment increases the level of IgGs in the body as a result of the

therapy. So if those of us who are having a toxic reaction, are already

making IgGs in response to the molds and we're having some kind of reaction to

those increased levels, wouldn't taking the shots make that worse? (From what I

understand from Dr. Shoemaker, he believes that most of the people he treats

aren't making IgGs to the toxins and that's why they aren't

clearing them, but I'm not sure if he believes that we don't make the IgGs to

the molds themselves). My lab results show that I'm making IgGs and some IgM

antibodies to many molds and also had elevated levels for T-2 toxin and

vomitoxin.

I also saw Dr. Lieberman, who from reading on this group, must treat similar

to Dr. Rhea. They did the allergy provocaton to various things, one at a time

and I showed reactions that I haven't shown by more traditional methods. They

sent me home with injections for even the things I didn't react to. I tried it

for a while, but didn't feel comfortable with it and quit. He also wanted me to

do the detox program with the IV nutrients, sauna, etc., but that was going to

cost a fortune that I don't have and not sure if it would work anyway. However,

I would go into debt, if I knew that it would work.

I just have a lot of questions and reservations about just " one therapy fits

all. " it seems to me that with the help and support of others on the group, we

are each going to have to " find our own way " to wellness, whether it be

traditional, nontraditional, or a combination of both. I'm open to each and

every opinion expressed on the group. It has helped me tremendously. We just

have to decide what " fits " with our own symptoms and hopefully find a doctor who

believes us and works with us. So I'm not " knocking " anyones theory. We just

need to be open to all ideas and realize that we are not all going to be helped

by the same type of therapy.

In hopes that I don't offend any one, I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a

Happy New Year!!

ssr3351@... wrote:

I have been a patient of Dr. Shoemaker's for 2 yrs. and I am 100% better

than I was when I first saw him. I have to tell you that I have suffered from

allergies on and off during my life. Mostly to dogs, cats, dust, pollen, some

molds, trees, grasses, feathers,weeds,tobacco and a few other things. I took

allergy shots as a young person, then in my mid twentys and then again about

7 yrs. ago. However, even taking the shots while at the school I still had

allergy problems. When I started to see Dr. S it certainly wasn't for

allergies, they were the least of my problems. I was having severe

muscle/joint

pain to the point I was limping, ice pick pains in my legs, nausea, memory

loss, slurred speech, racing heart, joint stiffness, temperature changes, daily

headaches, anxiety, ear pain, blurred vision and many other symptoms. Since

leaving my school and following Dr. Shoemaker's protocol all my symptoms are

gone! I don't take allergy shots or pills anymore and I have to say when I did

take them my arm would swell, itch,hurt & I would feel bad for days after the

injection. Dr. told me that was normal. I haven't had one sore throat,

cough, allergy problem, common cold or illness of any kind in two yrs.!!!!

While working at my school I had constant respiratory problems along with all

the

other symptoms, but they have all disappeared completely. I still get some

seasonal allergies during the spring & fall but it doesn't even require an

allergy pill anymore. I never again want allergy shots put into my system. I've

been poisoned enough & they certainly didn't help.

Sue

So, I am confused. If you agree mycotoxin is a poisoning, why do you

want injections for allergy?, I tried that pocket emptying therapy,

but it only made me sicker.

> Carl. I still need to understand one specific thing. Does

Dr. Shoemaker do

> neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection? That is

the main

> thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

[Guest guest]

Yes I have book but have not read it yet. Don't know if there is any doctor that

can help me in Arizona. Loni

SERENA EDWARDS <pushcrash@...> wrote: If I could answer all that in a

couple of paragraphs, I would. But mainly, that there are more things going on

than allergy, and a lot of info on how the biotoxin pathway works. Have you got

that book?

Rosser <rossercustomhomes@...> wrote: Serena, What is the point you

speak of? Loni

SERENA EDWARDS <pushcrash@...> wrote: , I will go far enough to say

(since it has been discussed here many times before anyway), that Shoemaker does

focus on the toxins in particular, and the ILA types found amongst us that

prevent us from offloading them on our own. This is in large part why I think

you will find his book worth the read. Consider - what if you could identify

those of us with the " bad " genes before taking the risks? Why can Shoemaker now

accurately predict outcomes of genetic tests through simple screening so many

times before the results even come back? What if we could be identified prior to

the exposures in the first place? Where would I be right now, if this had been

known decades back? A zillion questions about what might have happened, and more

to be answered about how we can use this information to make the future better.

I'm not intellectually up for any deep debate on the whole thing. I'm a lay

person from an unrelated scientific discipline. But at some point, it all

becomes pretty chicken and egg. Which begat what? Allergies first, or the

toxins? Do you want to treat the cause, or treat the symptoms, or something in

between, or all of them at once or in succession? Is there a safe pathway to

back out through the various layers of biotoxin-induced illness? As a patient,

what do you have to do to successfully run the gauntlet between the toxin-only

minded, the allergy-only minded, and the Great Debate between them - not to

mention all the oncologists, pulmonologists, rheumatologists, neurologists, and

other specialists in between who don't get either idea and just want to look at

their own favorite organs?

But what if, at some future point, you could easily identify the ILA type AND

treat the gene expression it engenders? That would be extremely cool, and the

ILA testing is already being done. At that point, perhaps the whole allergy vs.

toxins question could just go away altogether. (And if, at some point, we

stopped building these problems right into the buildings we inhabit and the

medicines we use, then so much the better. We figured out the lead and asbestos

thing. This one is next up, but first things first. It's hard to change the

world from your chair.)

Anyway, do go ahead and read the book. It doesn't attempt to answer all

questions. He's honest about what he hasn't figured out yet, and asks a lot of

new questions along the way. I would take it all as an enhancement to what you

already know - not an argument against it. If I can see this much in it, then

I'm sure you can see even more and maybe put it to good use. My own doctor read

it with already a good deal of experience treating people like us, saw the point

right off, began sharing it with colleagues, and they saw it as well. That's the

best review I think a book like this could possibly ask for. It'll be

interesting to hear what your thinking is, once you've read it yourself.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

[Guest guest]

Well said Kathy.....wish my brain worked that well.

Thanks,

Marcie

Kathy <kathywnb@...> wrote:

I feel compelled to interject some of my opinions and questions about various

topics discussed recently including this one, and felt like this was a good

place to do so.

First, I think it is great that many have done so well on Dr. Shoemaker's

protocol. I think he is brilliant and if you are just having the toxic

reaction, don't have the multisusceptible genotype, and haven't been in the

environment too long, the protocol will work. I also think it depends upon the

type of toxins exposed to. They all work differently, and some cause permanent

damage if exposed too much. I also think that some of us who don't fit into the

exact pattern that he decribes or can't tolerate the CSM, may not be getting

the same " warm, fuzzy " feeling that those that do get from him. I think that

Dr. Shoemaker is a pioneer and should be applauded for his groundbreaking work

into biotoxin illness. Credit also needs to be given to Dr. Hudnell who

worked with him to develop the theory. They have both " unlocked the key " to why

many of us who have been devastated by the toxins are so ill. But remember,

according to his theory, only 25% of those exposed will

actually be affected by the toxins. So that leaves others who may not be having

the toxic reaction, but may be affected by the mold in other ways. For

instance, those who have an obvious immunodeficiency may not be having a toxic

reaction, but are actually more susceptible to serious infections by not only

the mold, but other microbes as well. The program might help, but without the

IVIG treatment, one would still be more susceptible to these serious infections.

I think this is rare, but it is obvious, it is the case with a few of the people

who have posted. Then there are those who may develop hypersenstivity

pneumonitis, which is also rare, who would not be helped by the detox protocol

at all, and may actually get worse if not diagnosed correctly.

Then finally, on to the allergy neutalization question. My understanding is

that this is only effective if you are actually allergic to the mold. which I am

sure is the case with some of the people who post If you are actually allergic

(IgE, not IgG reaction), then this could be life saving and a very important

part of treatment. I also took allergy shots for years, but didn't see any

improvement except that where I showed allergic to many things including mold,

at one time, don't show allergic to anything now. Also, from what I understand,

the treatment increases the level of IgGs in the body as a result of the

therapy. So if those of us who are having a toxic reaction, are already

making IgGs in response to the molds and we're having some kind of reaction to

those increased levels, wouldn't taking the shots make that worse? (From what I

understand from Dr. Shoemaker, he believes that most of the people he treats

aren't making IgGs to the toxins and that's why they aren't

clearing them, but I'm not sure if he believes that we don't make the IgGs to

the molds themselves). My lab results show that I'm making IgGs and some IgM

antibodies to many molds and also had elevated levels for T-2 toxin and

vomitoxin.

I also saw Dr. Lieberman, who from reading on this group, must treat similar

to Dr. Rhea. They did the allergy provocaton to various things, one at a time

and I showed reactions that I haven't shown by more traditional methods. They

sent me home with injections for even the things I didn't react to. I tried it

for a while, but didn't feel comfortable with it and quit. He also wanted me to

do the detox program with the IV nutrients, sauna, etc., but that was going to

cost a fortune that I don't have and not sure if it would work anyway. However,

I would go into debt, if I knew that it would work.

I just have a lot of questions and reservations about just " one therapy fits

all. " it seems to me that with the help and support of others on the group, we

are each going to have to " find our own way " to wellness, whether it be

traditional, nontraditional, or a combination of both. I'm open to each and

every opinion expressed on the group. It has helped me tremendously. We just

have to decide what " fits " with our own symptoms and hopefully find a doctor who

believes us and works with us. So I'm not " knocking " anyones theory. We just

need to be open to all ideas and realize that we are not all going to be helped

by the same type of therapy.

In hopes that I don't offend any one, I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a

Happy New Year!!

ssr3351@... wrote:

I have been a patient of Dr. Shoemaker's for 2 yrs. and I am 100% better

than I was when I first saw him. I have to tell you that I have suffered from

allergies on and off during my life. Mostly to dogs, cats, dust, pollen, some

molds, trees, grasses, feathers,weeds,tobacco and a few other things. I took

allergy shots as a young person, then in my mid twentys and then again about

7 yrs. ago. However, even taking the shots while at the school I still had

allergy problems. When I started to see Dr. S it certainly wasn't for

allergies, they were the least of my problems. I was having severe

muscle/joint

pain to the point I was limping, ice pick pains in my legs, nausea, memory

loss, slurred speech, racing heart, joint stiffness, temperature changes, daily

headaches, anxiety, ear pain, blurred vision and many other symptoms. Since

leaving my school and following Dr. Shoemaker's protocol all my symptoms are

gone! I don't take allergy shots or pills anymore and I have to say when I did

take them my arm would swell, itch,hurt & I would feel bad for days after the

injection. Dr. told me that was normal. I haven't had one sore throat,

cough, allergy problem, common cold or illness of any kind in two yrs.!!!!

While working at my school I had constant respiratory problems along with all

the

other symptoms, but they have all disappeared completely. I still get some

seasonal allergies during the spring & fall but it doesn't even require an

allergy pill anymore. I never again want allergy shots put into my system. I've

been poisoned enough & they certainly didn't help.

Sue

So, I am confused. If you agree mycotoxin is a poisoning, why do you

want injections for allergy?, I tried that pocket emptying therapy,

but it only made me sicker.

> Carl. I still need to understand one specific thing. Does

Dr. Shoemaker do

> neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection? That is

the main

> thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

[Guest guest]

Dr Shoe- does not say only 25% will get sick- only that they get

sicker sooner, and cannot get well at all or as fast do to not being

able to de-tox

>

>

>

> I have been a patient of Dr. Shoemaker's for 2 yrs. and I am 100%

better

> than I was when I first saw him. I have to tell you that I have

suffered from

> allergies on and off during my life. Mostly to dogs, cats, dust,

pollen, some

> molds, trees, grasses, feathers,weeds,tobacco and a few other

things. I took

> allergy shots as a young person, then in my mid twentys and then

again about

> 7 yrs. ago. However, even taking the shots while at the school I

still had

> allergy problems. When I started to see Dr. S it certainly wasn't

for

> allergies, they were the least of my problems. I was having

severe muscle/joint

> pain to the point I was limping, ice pick pains in my legs,

nausea, memory

> loss, slurred speech, racing heart, joint stiffness, temperature

changes, daily

> headaches, anxiety, ear pain, blurred vision and many other

symptoms. Since

> leaving my school and following Dr. Shoemaker's protocol all my

symptoms are

> gone! I don't take allergy shots or pills anymore and I have to

say when I did

> take them my arm would swell, itch,hurt & I would feel bad for

days after the

> injection. Dr. told me that was normal. I haven't had one sore

throat,

> cough, allergy problem, common cold or illness of any kind in

two yrs.!!!!

> While working at my school I had constant respiratory problems

along with all the

> other symptoms, but they have all disappeared completely. I

still get some

> seasonal allergies during the spring & fall but it doesn't even

require an

> allergy pill anymore. I never again want allergy shots put into

my system. I've

> been poisoned enough & they certainly didn't help.

> Sue

>

> So, I am confused. If you agree mycotoxin is a poisoning, why do

you

> want injections for allergy?, I tried that pocket emptying

therapy,

> but it only made me sicker.

> > Carl. I still need to understand one specific thing.

Does

> Dr. Shoemaker do

> > neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection? That

is

> the main

> > thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr Shoe- does not say only 25% will get sick- only that they get

sicker sooner, and cannot get well at all or as fast do to not being

able to de-tox

>

>

>

> I have been a patient of Dr. Shoemaker's for 2 yrs. and I am 100%

better

> than I was when I first saw him. I have to tell you that I have

suffered from

> allergies on and off during my life. Mostly to dogs, cats, dust,

pollen, some

> molds, trees, grasses, feathers,weeds,tobacco and a few other

things. I took

> allergy shots as a young person, then in my mid twentys and then

again about

> 7 yrs. ago. However, even taking the shots while at the school I

still had

> allergy problems. When I started to see Dr. S it certainly wasn't

for

> allergies, they were the least of my problems. I was having

severe muscle/joint

> pain to the point I was limping, ice pick pains in my legs,

nausea, memory

> loss, slurred speech, racing heart, joint stiffness, temperature

changes, daily

> headaches, anxiety, ear pain, blurred vision and many other

symptoms. Since

> leaving my school and following Dr. Shoemaker's protocol all my

symptoms are

> gone! I don't take allergy shots or pills anymore and I have to

say when I did

> take them my arm would swell, itch,hurt & I would feel bad for

days after the

> injection. Dr. told me that was normal. I haven't had one sore

throat,

> cough, allergy problem, common cold or illness of any kind in

two yrs.!!!!

> While working at my school I had constant respiratory problems

along with all the

> other symptoms, but they have all disappeared completely. I

still get some

> seasonal allergies during the spring & fall but it doesn't even

require an

> allergy pill anymore. I never again want allergy shots put into

my system. I've

> been poisoned enough & they certainly didn't help.

> Sue

>

> So, I am confused. If you agree mycotoxin is a poisoning, why do

you

> want injections for allergy?, I tried that pocket emptying

therapy,

> but it only made me sicker.

> > Carl. I still need to understand one specific thing.

Does

> Dr. Shoemaker do

> > neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection? That

is

> the main

> > thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Several articles I have read suggest most allergists have very limited

success in elimination mold allergies. Perhaps one of the reasons for this

is that when mold is present, it is not usually alone, but present in a

complex mix of many molds, some easily classified, and some minor molds

almost impossible to identify. An allergist can characterize allergies to

the major molds, generally only down to a broad classification such as

penicillium or aspergillis, but not down to the individual species, such as

aspergillus niger or aspergillus fumigatis. Thus, it is quite possible to

react severely to a moldy environment, without actually having identified

allergies to the particular species a victim is allergic to.

My allergist believed that since I wasn't apparently allergic to the molds

he tested on me (alternaria, aspergillus, penicillium, helmenthosporium,

fusarium) then I must not have a mold allergy, and perhaps my severe

reaction was psychosomatic. I was quite surprised when I asked him to test

me for allergy to stachybotrys. He had not heard of it, nor of several other

molds in a list I gave him from the fungal glossary on University of

Minnesota department of environmental health web site (www.dehs.umn.edu).

You can't desensitize when you can't identify the allergen. Needless to say,

I no longer bother with his useless advice, and practice my version of

's extreme avoidance, usually with great success.

Unlike many of you, I am convinced my reaction is almost entirely

allergic. I just don't have a medical confirmation of that. According to the

Americal College of Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology web site, the best

treatment for any allergy is to avoid the allergen, the basis of 's

extreme avoidance. Perhaps more doctors need to stress this fact rather than

give futile hope for some non-existent cure.

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:41:08 -0800 (PST)

From: Marcie McGovern <marcie1029@...>

Subject: Re: Re: Neutralization and Provocation

Well said Kathy.....wish my brain worked that well.

Thanks,

Marcie

Kathy <kathywnb@...> wrote:

I feel compelled to interject some of my opinions and questions about

various topics discussed recently including this one, and felt like this was

a good place to do so.

First, I think it is great that many have done so well on Dr.

Shoemaker's protocol. I think he is brilliant and if you are just having

the toxic reaction, don't have the multisusceptible genotype, and haven't

been in the environment too long, the protocol will work. I also think it

depends upon the type of toxins exposed to. They all work differently, and

some cause permanent damage if exposed too much. I also think that some of

us who don't fit into the exact pattern that he decribes or can't tolerate

the CSM, may not be getting the same " warm, fuzzy " feeling that those that

do get from him. I think that Dr. Shoemaker is a pioneer and should be

applauded for his groundbreaking work into biotoxin illness. Credit also

needs to be given to Dr. Hudnell who worked with him to develop the

theory. They have both " unlocked the key " to why many of us who have been

devastated by the toxins are so ill. But remember, according to his theory,

only 25% of those exposed will

actually be affected by the toxins. So that leaves others who may not be

having the toxic reaction, but may be affected by the mold in other ways.

For instance, those who have an obvious immunodeficiency may not be having a

toxic reaction, but are actually more susceptible to serious infections by

not only the mold, but other microbes as well. The program might help, but

without the IVIG treatment, one would still be more susceptible to these

serious infections. I think this is rare, but it is obvious, it is the case

with a few of the people who have posted. Then there are those who may

develop hypersenstivity pneumonitis, which is also rare, who would not be

helped by the detox protocol at all, and may actually get worse if not

diagnosed correctly.

Then finally, on to the allergy neutalization question. My understanding

is that this is only effective if you are actually allergic to the mold.

which I am sure is the case with some of the people who post If you are

actually allergic (IgE, not IgG reaction), then this could be life saving

and a very important part of treatment. I also took allergy shots for

years, but didn't see any improvement except that where I showed allergic to

many things including mold, at one time, don't show allergic to anything

now. Also, from what I understand, the treatment increases the level of

IgGs in the body as a result of the therapy. So if those of us who are

having a toxic reaction, are already making IgGs in response to the molds

and we're having some kind of reaction to those increased levels, wouldn't

taking the shots make that worse? (From what I understand from Dr.

Shoemaker, he believes that most of the people he treats aren't making IgGs

to the toxins and that's why they aren't

clearing them, but I'm not sure if he believes that we don't make the IgGs

to the molds themselves). My lab results show that I'm making IgGs and some

IgM antibodies to many molds and also had elevated levels for T-2 toxin and

vomitoxin.

I also saw Dr. Lieberman, who from reading on this group, must treat

similar to Dr. Rhea. They did the allergy provocaton to various things, one

at a time and I showed reactions that I haven't shown by more traditional

methods. They sent me home with injections for even the things I didn't

react to. I tried it for a while, but didn't feel comfortable with it and

quit. He also wanted me to do the detox program with the IV nutrients,

sauna, etc., but that was going to cost a fortune that I don't have and not

sure if it would work anyway. However, I would go into debt, if I knew that

it would work.

I just have a lot of questions and reservations about just " one therapy

fits all. " it seems to me that with the help and support of others on the

group, we are each going to have to " find our own way " to wellness, whether

it be traditional, nontraditional, or a combination of both. I'm open to

each and every opinion expressed on the group. It has helped me

tremendously. We just have to decide what " fits " with our own symptoms and

hopefully find a doctor who believes us and works with us. So I'm not

" knocking " anyones theory. We just need to be open to all ideas and realize

that we are not all going to be helped by the same type of therapy.

In hopes that I don't offend any one, I wish you all a Merry Christmas

and a Happy New Year!!

ssr3351@... wrote:

I have been a patient of Dr. Shoemaker's for 2 yrs. and I am 100% better

than I was when I first saw him. I have to tell you that I have suffered

from

allergies on and off during my life. Mostly to dogs, cats, dust, pollen,

some

molds, trees, grasses, feathers,weeds,tobacco and a few other things. I

took

allergy shots as a young person, then in my mid twentys and then again

about

7 yrs. ago. However, even taking the shots while at the school I still had

allergy problems. When I started to see Dr. S it certainly wasn't for

allergies, they were the least of my problems. I was having severe

muscle/joint

pain to the point I was limping, ice pick pains in my legs, nausea, memory

loss, slurred speech, racing heart, joint stiffness, temperature changes,

daily

headaches, anxiety, ear pain, blurred vision and many other symptoms. Since

leaving my school and following Dr. Shoemaker's protocol all my symptoms

are

gone! I don't take allergy shots or pills anymore and I have to say when I

did

take them my arm would swell, itch,hurt & I would feel bad for days after

the

injection. Dr. told me that was normal. I haven't had one sore throat,

cough, allergy problem, common cold or illness of any kind in two yrs.!!!!

While working at my school I had constant respiratory problems along with

all the

other symptoms, but they have all disappeared completely. I still get some

seasonal allergies during the spring & fall but it doesn't even require an

allergy pill anymore. I never again want allergy shots put into my system.

I've

been poisoned enough & they certainly didn't help.

Sue

So, I am confused. If you agree mycotoxin is a poisoning, why do you

want injections for allergy?, I tried that pocket emptying therapy,

but it only made me sicker.

> Carl. I still need to understand one specific thing. Does

Dr. Shoemaker do

> neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection? That is

the main

> thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

[Guest guest]

That means we have to live in a bubble & is impossible. I went shopping &

thought I was going to collapse. Loni

Gil Vice <gilvice@...> wrote: Several articles I have read suggest

most allergists have very limited

success in elimination mold allergies. Perhaps one of the reasons for this

is that when mold is present, it is not usually alone, but present in a

complex mix of many molds, some easily classified, and some minor molds

almost impossible to identify. An allergist can characterize allergies to

the major molds, generally only down to a broad classification such as

penicillium or aspergillis, but not down to the individual species, such as

aspergillus niger or aspergillus fumigatis. Thus, it is quite possible to

react severely to a moldy environment, without actually having identified

allergies to the particular species a victim is allergic to.

My allergist believed that since I wasn't apparently allergic to the molds

he tested on me (alternaria, aspergillus, penicillium, helmenthosporium,

fusarium) then I must not have a mold allergy, and perhaps my severe

reaction was psychosomatic. I was quite surprised when I asked him to test

me for allergy to stachybotrys. He had not heard of it, nor of several other

molds in a list I gave him from the fungal glossary on University of

Minnesota department of environmental health web site (www.dehs.umn.edu).

You can't desensitize when you can't identify the allergen. Needless to say,

I no longer bother with his useless advice, and practice my version of

's extreme avoidance, usually with great success.

Unlike many of you, I am convinced my reaction is almost entirely

allergic. I just don't have a medical confirmation of that. According to the

Americal College of Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology web site, the best

treatment for any allergy is to avoid the allergen, the basis of 's

extreme avoidance. Perhaps more doctors need to stress this fact rather than

give futile hope for some non-existent cure.

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:41:08 -0800 (PST)

From: Marcie McGovern <marcie1029@...>

Subject: Re: Re: Neutralization and Provocation

Well said Kathy.....wish my brain worked that well.

Thanks,

Marcie

Kathy <kathywnb@...> wrote:

I feel compelled to interject some of my opinions and questions about

various topics discussed recently including this one, and felt like this was

a good place to do so.

First, I think it is great that many have done so well on Dr.

Shoemaker's protocol. I think he is brilliant and if you are just having

the toxic reaction, don't have the multisusceptible genotype, and haven't

been in the environment too long, the protocol will work. I also think it

depends upon the type of toxins exposed to. They all work differently, and

some cause permanent damage if exposed too much. I also think that some of

us who don't fit into the exact pattern that he decribes or can't tolerate

the CSM, may not be getting the same " warm, fuzzy " feeling that those that

do get from him. I think that Dr. Shoemaker is a pioneer and should be

applauded for his groundbreaking work into biotoxin illness. Credit also

needs to be given to Dr. Hudnell who worked with him to develop the

theory. They have both " unlocked the key " to why many of us who have been

devastated by the toxins are so ill. But remember, according to his theory,

only 25% of those exposed will

actually be affected by the toxins. So that leaves others who may not be

having the toxic reaction, but may be affected by the mold in other ways.

For instance, those who have an obvious immunodeficiency may not be having a

toxic reaction, but are actually more susceptible to serious infections by

not only the mold, but other microbes as well. The program might help, but

without the IVIG treatment, one would still be more susceptible to these

serious infections. I think this is rare, but it is obvious, it is the case

with a few of the people who have posted. Then there are those who may

develop hypersenstivity pneumonitis, which is also rare, who would not be

helped by the detox protocol at all, and may actually get worse if not

diagnosed correctly.

Then finally, on to the allergy neutalization question. My understanding

is that this is only effective if you are actually allergic to the mold.

which I am sure is the case with some of the people who post If you are

actually allergic (IgE, not IgG reaction), then this could be life saving

and a very important part of treatment. I also took allergy shots for

years, but didn't see any improvement except that where I showed allergic to

many things including mold, at one time, don't show allergic to anything

now. Also, from what I understand, the treatment increases the level of

IgGs in the body as a result of the therapy. So if those of us who are

having a toxic reaction, are already making IgGs in response to the molds

and we're having some kind of reaction to those increased levels, wouldn't

taking the shots make that worse? (From what I understand from Dr.

Shoemaker, he believes that most of the people he treats aren't making IgGs

to the toxins and that's why they aren't

clearing them, but I'm not sure if he believes that we don't make the IgGs

to the molds themselves). My lab results show that I'm making IgGs and some

IgM antibodies to many molds and also had elevated levels for T-2 toxin and

vomitoxin.

I also saw Dr. Lieberman, who from reading on this group, must treat

similar to Dr. Rhea. They did the allergy provocaton to various things, one

at a time and I showed reactions that I haven't shown by more traditional

methods. They sent me home with injections for even the things I didn't

react to. I tried it for a while, but didn't feel comfortable with it and

quit. He also wanted me to do the detox program with the IV nutrients,

sauna, etc., but that was going to cost a fortune that I don't have and not

sure if it would work anyway. However, I would go into debt, if I knew that

it would work.

I just have a lot of questions and reservations about just " one therapy

fits all. " it seems to me that with the help and support of others on the

group, we are each going to have to " find our own way " to wellness, whether

it be traditional, nontraditional, or a combination of both. I'm open to

each and every opinion expressed on the group. It has helped me

tremendously. We just have to decide what " fits " with our own symptoms and

hopefully find a doctor who believes us and works with us. So I'm not

" knocking " anyones theory. We just need to be open to all ideas and realize

that we are not all going to be helped by the same type of therapy.

In hopes that I don't offend any one, I wish you all a Merry Christmas

and a Happy New Year!!

ssr3351@... wrote:

I have been a patient of Dr. Shoemaker's for 2 yrs. and I am 100% better

than I was when I first saw him. I have to tell you that I have suffered

from

allergies on and off during my life. Mostly to dogs, cats, dust, pollen,

some

molds, trees, grasses, feathers,weeds,tobacco and a few other things. I

took

allergy shots as a young person, then in my mid twentys and then again

about

7 yrs. ago. However, even taking the shots while at the school I still had

allergy problems. When I started to see Dr. S it certainly wasn't for

allergies, they were the least of my problems. I was having severe

muscle/joint

pain to the point I was limping, ice pick pains in my legs, nausea, memory

loss, slurred speech, racing heart, joint stiffness, temperature changes,

daily

headaches, anxiety, ear pain, blurred vision and many other symptoms. Since

leaving my school and following Dr. Shoemaker's protocol all my symptoms

are

gone! I don't take allergy shots or pills anymore and I have to say when I

did

take them my arm would swell, itch,hurt & I would feel bad for days after

the

injection. Dr. told me that was normal. I haven't had one sore throat,

cough, allergy problem, common cold or illness of any kind in two yrs.!!!!

While working at my school I had constant respiratory problems along with

all the

other symptoms, but they have all disappeared completely. I still get some

seasonal allergies during the spring & fall but it doesn't even require an

allergy pill anymore. I never again want allergy shots put into my system.

I've

been poisoned enough & they certainly didn't help.

Sue

So, I am confused. If you agree mycotoxin is a poisoning, why do you

want injections for allergy?, I tried that pocket emptying therapy,

but it only made me sicker.

> Carl. I still need to understand one specific thing. Does

Dr. Shoemaker do

> neutralization and Provocation by subcutaneous injection? That is

the main

> thing that I am concerned about people skipping.

[Guest guest]

> That means we have to live in a bubble & is impossible. I went

shopping & thought I was going to collapse. Loni

>

Not impossible, just a bit difficult.

The more time spent in the " safe zone " , the more tolerance is built up

to transient exposures.

At least that was OUR experience.

wwwstachy.5u.com

-

[Guest guest]

Just thought I would post the correct link- should be read by everyone

and be in our links section if it isn't allready

http://www.stachy.5u.com/>

> > That means we have to live in a bubble & is impossible. I went

> shopping & thought I was going to collapse. Loni

> >

>

>

> Not impossible, just a bit difficult.

> The more time spent in the " safe zone " , the more tolerance is built

up

> to transient exposures.

> At least that was OUR experience.

> wwwstachy.5u.com

> -

>