Re: Cleaning up the mold

November 17, 2005

,

I will try not to make this a biased answer to number 5 but simply

offering my experience. The only true effective air purification on

the market is HEPA. HEPA captures 99.9% of all particles (mold,

dust, all containments) .3 microns in size. 85% of all the

containments you breathe are .3 micron in size. Your bodies defenses

can not block these particles from entering your body and can even

enter your blood stream once deep in your lung tissues. Ionic or

Electro static plates are ineffective and loose even more

effectiveness as the plates get dirty. They even can put of Ozone -

ozone is a agitator to your respiratory system.

Please look at my company website www.hepacore.com and watch the CBS

New video. Very insightful on keeping a clean home. We have had

nothing but very satisfied customers using HEPA in their homes.

> > In a message dated 11/15/2005 12:22:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > grimes@h... writes:

> >

> > KC and Sharon,

> >

> > At the risk of sounding like a traitor, don't throw the baby

out with

> > the bathwater. There is a lot of excellent information in this

> > briefing, especially the warning against unnecessary testing and

being

> > careful about remediators. I also like the statement that if it

is

> > porous and moldy, throw it out instead of trying to clean it.

Wonder

> > what the insurance adjustors think of that?

> >

> > I also like that the EPA guy specifically mentions that they

include

> > data that would be applicable to those with greater

sensitivity. At

> > least it's a start.

> >

> > What I do disagree with, is they don't go far enough in

explaining

> > that public health is not the same as individual health.

Therefore,

> > what they deem as overall acceptable to the " general public "

may not

> > be for a specific individual. That would remove some of the

support

> > to the naysayers.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

> > -----

> > > Is this i

> > >

> > > FEMA Announcements Last Updated: Sep 29th, 2005 - 07:29:19

> > >

> > > http://communitydispatch.com/artman/publish/article_2249.shtml

> >

> > Hey Carl,

> >

> > You are one who could never, ever be considered a traitor in the

fight

> > to help mold victims! And in reality, why should there be

traitors

> > to this issue at all? Whether one is most concerned about the

> > physical impact of this issue or if one is most concerned about

the

> > financial impact of this issue....this issue is uselessly

wasting

> > many lives and much money.

> >

> > It is beyond me, why this even is an issue. Seems like all

would want

> > to do everything possible to move the science forward.

> >

> > There is some good information in this doc. But what is

glaringly

> > missing from the CDC is the acknowledgement that molds and mold

toxins

> > can produce severe, life threatening illnesses in prior healthly

> > people. And there in, lays the heart of all the contention of

the

> > " Toxic Mold Issue " .

> >

> > Numerous times within the more comprehensive mold doc that was

> > recently written the CDC makes statesment of " rare, little is

known,

> > in a small segment of the population, etc " .

> >

> > The illnesses we are all experiencing are not mere IgE mediated

minor

> > allergies, yet that is the only place where the CDC has focused

any

> > research for those who are immunocompetent. Still they

continue to

> > make statesment of the rarity of our illnesses.

> >

> > We have asked numerous times that they track these symptoms

indicative

> > of serious Type III hypersensitivity reactions and

mycotoxicoses. To

> > date, they have taken no action to do so.

> >

> > So, the statements of rarity of these illnesses in prior healthy

> > people is not based on any scientific evidence....it is

anecdotal

> > information being presented by the CDC as sound science. It is

> > making it difficult for those who are experiencing these

illnesses to

> > find proper medical care. And it is hurting us all, physically

and

> > financially.

> >

> > Those who are currently being exposed to excessive amounts of

mold

> > after Katrina, yet are not immunocompromised, are being left

wide

> > open by the CDC to acquire serious mold and mold toxin induced

> > illneses. They are being told, runny noses, minor coughs,

etc. All

> > of us on this board know that is not true and accurate

> > information...as does the CDC. Whether they want to call it

rare or

> > not rare based on some fictious study of numbers of those

affected,

> > they know it does happen and they are not properly warning

people of

> > the potentially serious illnesses of mold.

> >

> > I guess that would be my beef with what is being put out there

by the

> > CDC. I don't want to see one other person unnecessarily have to

go

> > through what most of us on this board have had to go through.

> >

> > Sharon

> >

November 17, 2005

Why did the Friedrich rate well in comsumers report do you think?

pwcwg325 <pwcwg325@...> wrote: ,

I will try not to make this a biased answer to number 5 but simply

offering my experience. The only true effective air purification on

the market is HEPA. HEPA captures 99.9% of all particles (mold,

dust, all containments) .3 microns in size. 85% of all the

containments you breathe are .3 micron in size. Your bodies defenses

can not block these particles from entering your body and can even

enter your blood stream once deep in your lung tissues. Ionic or

Electro static plates are ineffective and loose even more

effectiveness as the plates get dirty. They even can put of Ozone -

ozone is a agitator to your respiratory system.

Please look at my company website www.hepacore.com and watch the CBS

New video. Very insightful on keeping a clean home. We have had

nothing but very satisfied customers using HEPA in their homes.

> > In a message dated 11/15/2005 12:22:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > grimes@h... writes:

> >

> > KC and Sharon,

> >

> > At the risk of sounding like a traitor, don't throw the baby

out with

> > the bathwater. There is a lot of excellent information in this

> > briefing, especially the warning against unnecessary testing and

being

> > careful about remediators. I also like the statement that if it

is

> > porous and moldy, throw it out instead of trying to clean it.

Wonder

> > what the insurance adjustors think of that?

> >

> > I also like that the EPA guy specifically mentions that they

include

> > data that would be applicable to those with greater

sensitivity. At

> > least it's a start.

> >

> > What I do disagree with, is they don't go far enough in

explaining

> > that public health is not the same as individual health.

Therefore,

> > what they deem as overall acceptable to the " general public "

may not

> > be for a specific individual. That would remove some of the

support

> > to the naysayers.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

> > -----

> > > Is this i

> > >

> > > FEMA Announcements Last Updated: Sep 29th, 2005 - 07:29:19

> > >

> > > http://communitydispatch.com/artman/publish/article_2249.shtml

> >

> > Hey Carl,

> >

> > You are one who could never, ever be considered a traitor in the

fight

> > to help mold victims! And in reality, why should there be

traitors

> > to this issue at all? Whether one is most concerned about the

> > physical impact of this issue or if one is most concerned about

the

> > financial impact of this issue....this issue is uselessly

wasting

> > many lives and much money.

> >

> > It is beyond me, why this even is an issue. Seems like all

would want

> > to do everything possible to move the science forward.

> >

> > There is some good information in this doc. But what is

glaringly

> > missing from the CDC is the acknowledgement that molds and mold

toxins

> > can produce severe, life threatening illnesses in prior healthly

> > people. And there in, lays the heart of all the contention of

the

> > " Toxic Mold Issue " .

> >

> > Numerous times within the more comprehensive mold doc that was

> > recently written the CDC makes statesment of " rare, little is

known,

> > in a small segment of the population, etc " .

> >

> > The illnesses we are all experiencing are not mere IgE mediated

minor

> > allergies, yet that is the only place where the CDC has focused

any

> > research for those who are immunocompetent. Still they

continue to

> > make statesment of the rarity of our illnesses.

> >

> > We have asked numerous times that they track these symptoms

indicative

> > of serious Type III hypersensitivity reactions and

mycotoxicoses. To

> > date, they have taken no action to do so.

> >

> > So, the statements of rarity of these illnesses in prior healthy

> > people is not based on any scientific evidence....it is

anecdotal

> > information being presented by the CDC as sound science. It is

> > making it difficult for those who are experiencing these

illnesses to

> > find proper medical care. And it is hurting us all, physically

and

> > financially.

> >

> > Those who are currently being exposed to excessive amounts of

mold

> > after Katrina, yet are not immunocompromised, are being left

wide

> > open by the CDC to acquire serious mold and mold toxin induced

> > illneses. They are being told, runny noses, minor coughs,

etc. All

> > of us on this board know that is not true and accurate

> > information...as does the CDC. Whether they want to call it

rare or

> > not rare based on some fictious study of numbers of those

affected,

> > they know it does happen and they are not properly warning

people of

> > the potentially serious illnesses of mold.

> >

> > I guess that would be my beef with what is being put out there

by the

> > CDC. I don't want to see one other person unnecessarily have to

go

> > through what most of us on this board have had to go through.

> >

> > Sharon

> >

November 17, 2005

I am not familiar with the product. Today,we are sending down

commercial HEPA machines to New Orleans to help do-it-yourselfers

clean their homes. Just have no time today. Let mew review their

product and see what consumer reports said.

> > > In a message dated 11/15/2005 12:22:17 AM Pacific Standard

Time,

> > > grimes@h... writes:

> > >

> > > KC and Sharon,

> > >

> > > At the risk of sounding like a traitor, don't throw the baby

> out with

> > > the bathwater. There is a lot of excellent information in this

> > > briefing, especially the warning against unnecessary testing

and

> being

> > > careful about remediators. I also like the statement that if

it

> is

> > > porous and moldy, throw it out instead of trying to clean it.

> Wonder

> > > what the insurance adjustors think of that?

> > >

> > > I also like that the EPA guy specifically mentions that they

> include

> > > data that would be applicable to those with greater

> sensitivity. At

> > > least it's a start.

> > >

> > > What I do disagree with, is they don't go far enough in

> explaining

> > > that public health is not the same as individual health.

> Therefore,

> > > what they deem as overall acceptable to the " general public "

> may not

> > > be for a specific individual. That would remove some of the

> support

> > > to the naysayers.

> > >

> > > Carl Grimes

> > > Healthy Habitats LLC

> > >

> > > -----

> > > > Is this i

> > > >

> > > > FEMA Announcements Last Updated: Sep 29th, 2005 - 07:29:19

> > > >

http://communitydispatch.com/artman/publish/article_2249.shtml

> > >

> > > Hey Carl,

> > >

> > > You are one who could never, ever be considered a traitor in

the

> fight

> > > to help mold victims! And in reality, why should there be

> traitors

> > > to this issue at all? Whether one is most concerned about the

> > > physical impact of this issue or if one is most concerned

about

> the

> > > financial impact of this issue....this issue is uselessly

> wasting

> > > many lives and much money.

> > >

> > > It is beyond me, why this even is an issue. Seems like all

> would want

> > > to do everything possible to move the science forward.

> > >

> > > There is some good information in this doc. But what is

> glaringly

> > > missing from the CDC is the acknowledgement that molds and

mold

> toxins

> > > can produce severe, life threatening illnesses in prior

healthly

> > > people. And there in, lays the heart of all the contention

of

> the

> > > " Toxic Mold Issue " .

> > >

> > > Numerous times within the more comprehensive mold doc that was

> > > recently written the CDC makes statesment of " rare, little is

> known,

> > > in a small segment of the population, etc " .

> > >

> > > The illnesses we are all experiencing are not mere IgE

mediated

> minor

> > > allergies, yet that is the only place where the CDC has

focused

> any

> > > research for those who are immunocompetent. Still they

> continue to

> > > make statesment of the rarity of our illnesses.

> > >

> > > We have asked numerous times that they track these symptoms

> indicative

> > > of serious Type III hypersensitivity reactions and

> mycotoxicoses. To

> > > date, they have taken no action to do so.

> > >

> > > So, the statements of rarity of these illnesses in prior

healthy

> > > people is not based on any scientific evidence....it is

> anecdotal

> > > information being presented by the CDC as sound science. It

is

> > > making it difficult for those who are experiencing these

> illnesses to

> > > find proper medical care. And it is hurting us all,

physically

> and

> > > financially.

> > >

> > > Those who are currently being exposed to excessive amounts of

> mold

> > > after Katrina, yet are not immunocompromised, are being left

> wide

> > > open by the CDC to acquire serious mold and mold toxin induced

> > > illneses. They are being told, runny noses, minor coughs,

> etc. All

> > > of us on this board know that is not true and accurate

> > > information...as does the CDC. Whether they want to call it

> rare or

> > > not rare based on some fictious study of numbers of those

> affected,

> > > they know it does happen and they are not properly warning

> people of

> > > the potentially serious illnesses of mold.

> > >

> > > I guess that would be my beef with what is being put out there

> by the

> > > CDC. I don't want to see one other person unnecessarily have

to

> go

> > > through what most of us on this board have had to go through.

> > >

> > > Sharon

> > >

November 18, 2005

,

This model is not the best choice for those with severe allergies.

Since this model uses an electrostatic plate, the Friedrich produces

a small amount of ozone.

You just cant beat a HEPA filter. What goes in, does not come out

and there is no by products to add into you homes environment. Also,

electrostatic filters do not hold true to the 99.9% effeciency that

HEPA filters have. Some allergists said that they have long

recommended HEPA cleaners over ionizers because of fears about ozone

output.

You will also find a white,powdery dust around the home with

electrostatic filters. This is the mold,dust and other contaminents

that have been charged but dont stick the the collection plates. The

retailer does not tell you that to get these contaminents out of

your air, they instead fall into the carpets and on furniture.

> > > > In a message dated 11/15/2005 12:22:17 AM Pacific Standard

> Time,

> > > > grimes@h... writes:

> > > >

> > > > KC and Sharon,

> > > >

> > > > At the risk of sounding like a traitor, don't throw the

baby

> > out with

> > > > the bathwater. There is a lot of excellent information in

this

> > > > briefing, especially the warning against unnecessary testing

> and

> > being

> > > > careful about remediators. I also like the statement that

if

> it

> > is

> > > > porous and moldy, throw it out instead of trying to clean

it.

> > Wonder

> > > > what the insurance adjustors think of that?

> > > >

> > > > I also like that the EPA guy specifically mentions that

they

> > include

> > > > data that would be applicable to those with greater

> > sensitivity. At

> > > > least it's a start.

> > > >

> > > > What I do disagree with, is they don't go far enough in

> > explaining

> > > > that public health is not the same as individual health.

> > Therefore,

> > > > what they deem as overall acceptable to the " general

public "

> > may not

> > > > be for a specific individual. That would remove some of the

> > support

> > > > to the naysayers.

> > > >

> > > > Carl Grimes

> > > > Healthy Habitats LLC

> > > >

> > > > -----

> > > > > Is this i

> > > > >

> > > > > FEMA Announcements Last Updated: Sep 29th, 2005 - 07:29:19

> > > > >

> http://communitydispatch.com/artman/publish/article_2249.shtml

> > > >

> > > > Hey Carl,

> > > >

> > > > You are one who could never, ever be considered a traitor in

> the

> > fight

> > > > to help mold victims! And in reality, why should there be

> > traitors

> > > > to this issue at all? Whether one is most concerned about

the

> > > > physical impact of this issue or if one is most concerned

> about

> > the

> > > > financial impact of this issue....this issue is uselessly

> > wasting

> > > > many lives and much money.

> > > >

> > > > It is beyond me, why this even is an issue. Seems like all

> > would want

> > > > to do everything possible to move the science forward.

> > > >

> > > > There is some good information in this doc. But what is

> > glaringly

> > > > missing from the CDC is the acknowledgement that molds and

> mold

> > toxins

> > > > can produce severe, life threatening illnesses in prior

> healthly

> > > > people. And there in, lays the heart of all the contention

> of

> > the

> > > > " Toxic Mold Issue " .

> > > >

> > > > Numerous times within the more comprehensive mold doc that

was

> > > > recently written the CDC makes statesment of " rare, little

is

> > known,

> > > > in a small segment of the population, etc " .

> > > >

> > > > The illnesses we are all experiencing are not mere IgE

> mediated

> > minor

> > > > allergies, yet that is the only place where the CDC has

> focused

> > any

> > > > research for those who are immunocompetent. Still they

> > continue to

> > > > make statesment of the rarity of our illnesses.

> > > >

> > > > We have asked numerous times that they track these symptoms

> > indicative

> > > > of serious Type III hypersensitivity reactions and

> > mycotoxicoses. To

> > > > date, they have taken no action to do so.

> > > >

> > > > So, the statements of rarity of these illnesses in prior

> healthy

> > > > people is not based on any scientific evidence....it is

> > anecdotal

> > > > information being presented by the CDC as sound science.

It

> is

> > > > making it difficult for those who are experiencing these

> > illnesses to

> > > > find proper medical care. And it is hurting us all,

> physically

> > and

> > > > financially.

> > > >

> > > > Those who are currently being exposed to excessive amounts

of

> > mold

> > > > after Katrina, yet are not immunocompromised, are being

left

> > wide

> > > > open by the CDC to acquire serious mold and mold toxin

induced

> > > > illneses. They are being told, runny noses, minor coughs,

> > etc. All

> > > > of us on this board know that is not true and accurate

> > > > information...as does the CDC. Whether they want to call it

> > rare or

> > > > not rare based on some fictious study of numbers of those

> > affected,

> > > > they know it does happen and they are not properly warning

> > people of

> > > > the potentially serious illnesses of mold.

> > > >

> > > > I guess that would be my beef with what is being put out

there

> > by the

> > > > CDC. I don't want to see one other person unnecessarily

have

> to

> > go

> > > > through what most of us on this board have had to go through.

> > > >

> > > > Sharon

> > > >

November 18, 2005

I found pink dust when I was cleaning the inside of the door where my water

heater and filters were. The flood started from the upstairs water heater. Could

that have been fusarium? It took me over an hour to clean the door; I had to

keep stopping because I felt sick and dizzy.

November 20, 2005

Carl,

Thanks for this response: Do you think then that getting a HEPA Air Purifier &

moving it around the house would sufficiently remove the mold as well as keeping

your house dust free? My doctor said to do the ozonator & just sweep up & vacuum

the mycotoxins (I know & KC you are having heart palpitations about

now-Ha) Sounds easy but I know from it is not that simple. HMMMM? I guess

my electrostatic Air Purifier isn't doing much for mold.

From what I gather though, when you clean the dust you disturb the mold & it

just floats from room to room. Sounds like you can never get rid of it.

I didn't understand your comment about the paint that it doesn't come off.

What doesn't come off. If you scrub the walls with a mold product, wouldn't you

be cleaning the mold?

Loni

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Loni,

According to my understanding of a conversation with Dr Eugene Cole

last year, mold mycotoxins tend to stay in the particle component

(cell) of the mold organism. (Endotoxins in bacteria don't). So

killing mold is more likely to rupture the cell wall and release the

mycotoxins. Especially since some products claim they are effective

because they kill by rupturing.

This, plus the fact that dead mold still contains all the components

of live mold, supports the position that killing mold is almost

always irrelevent. It's a waste of time and money. Remove the mold

per S520 as in my previous e-mail. If it can't be removed then remove

the contaminated material. That is the best way to get rid of

mycotoxins. Keep it inside the mold and remove the mold.

We've got to get two ideas out of our head. 1. Testing for mold is

definitive and compelling. 2. Killing mold is the ultimate goal; it

isn't even a minor goal. It is a waste and is often counter-

productive.

Any particle, whether mycotoxin, dander, mold or hair will act like

dust. " Big dust " falls and can accumulate like dust bunnies under the

bed while " tiny dust " stays up creating the mote Ken loves to talk

about. If the wind blows or the air is otherwise disturbed -

including by air purifiers - then the dust that fell will now rise

again. Dust removal, just like mold, is the most effective.

Your question about paint is interesting because it doesn't come off.

So for it to be affected a chemical reaction would have to take

place, which I think can happen with mycotoxins. Although the paint

stays on the surface the odor (molecular) might not. Otherwise

contact with the paint is necessary. I don't know for sure what

happens here so maybe some of the others can comment.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Questions:

>

> 1. When you kill the mold, do the mycotoxins float in the air or do

> they fall to the ground? How do get rid of mycotoxins after the

> kill???

>

> 2. What product would you use on wood furniture to kill mold?

>

> 3. Are the molds lurking on the paint?If so, what do you use to

> kill them on paint??

>

> Loni

>

> Thanks for the help, Loni

>

> " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

> Loni,

>

> It depends. Don't you just love a definitive answer like that?

>

> We can take a clue from the IICRC S520 Standard and Reference Guide

> for Professional Mold Remediation. If we look at the obvious at both

> extremes we can say that a simple surface that is hard and smooth can

> be cleaned with soap and water to remove any dirt, mold growth,

> bacteria, etc. So try. But it may not be successful for the highly

> reactive individuals.

>

> At the other extreme we can say that complex structures with nooks and

> crannies that are hard-to-nearly-impossible to clean have little

> chance of success. Likewise, rough surfaces that are porous like

> fabric that have mold growth would be nearly impossible. So don't try.

> If the mold has merely settled onto the surface like dust, then maybe.

>

> So what about all the objects that aren't obvious, with mixed

> characteristics? It depends. They may take 2, 3 or more cleaning

> attempts and still not be successful. By that time is usually cheaper

> to replace it anyway. Some will be cleaned sufficiently for a typical

> person, a few might be for a sensitive person, and some never for a

> highly reactive person.

>

> Decide on the obvious and then make choices about all those in the

> middle. Is their inherent or perceived value worth the risk of

> spending money on a failure? Are you so sensitive that the chance of

> success is zero? Someone recently posted about how to clean their art.

> There are specialists for that but is so expensive the art has to be

> extremely valuable. Most of these answers won't be known for sure

> until you try it. What is the risk with your circumstances?

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

> > So are you saying throw away desks, wood furniture, sofas etc. Can

> > they not be cleaned? Loni

> >

> > snk1955@... wrote:

> > In a message dated 11/15/2005 12:22:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > grimes@... writes:

> >

> > KC and Sharon,

> >

> > At the risk of sounding like a traitor, don't throw the baby out

> > with the bathwater. There is a lot of excellent information in this

> > briefing, especially the warning against unnecessary testing and

> > being

> > careful about remediators. I also like the statement that if it is

> > porous and moldy, throw it out instead of trying to clean it.

> > Wonder what the insurance adjustors think of that?

> >

> > I also like that the EPA guy specifically mentions that they

> > include data that would be applicable to those with greater

> > sensitivity. At least it's a start.

> >

> > What I do disagree with, is they don't go far enough in explaining

> > that public health is not the same as individual health. Therefore,

> > what they deem as overall acceptable to the " general public " may

> > not be for a specific individual. That would remove some of the

> > support to the naysayers.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

> > -----

> > > Is this i

> > >

> > > FEMA Announcements Last Updated: Sep 29th, 2005 - 07:29:19

> > >

> > > http://communitydispatch.com/artman/publish/article_2249.shtml

> >

> > Hey Carl,

> >

> > You are one who could never, ever be considered a traitor in the

> > fight to help mold victims! And in reality, why should there be

> > traitors to this issue at all? Whether one is most concerned about

> > the physical impact of this issue or if one is most concerned about

> > the financial impact of this issue....this issue is uselessly

> > wasting many lives and much money.

> >

> > It is beyond me, why this even is an issue. Seems like all would

> > want

> > to do everything possible to move the science forward.

> >

> > There is some good information in this doc. But what is glaringly

> > missing from the CDC is the acknowledgement that molds and mold

> > toxins can produce severe, life threatening illnesses in prior

> > healthly people. And there in, lays the heart of all the

> > contention of the " Toxic Mold Issue " .

> >

> > Numerous times within the more comprehensive mold doc that was

> > recently written the CDC makes statesment of " rare, little is

> > known, in a small segment of the population, etc " .

> >

> > The illnesses we are all experiencing are not mere IgE mediated

> > minor allergies, yet that is the only place where the CDC has

> > focused any research for those who are immunocompetent. Still they

> > continue to make statesment of the rarity of our illnesses.

> >

> > We have asked numerous times that they track these symptoms

> > indicative of serious Type III hypersensitivity reactions and

> > mycotoxicoses. To date, they have taken no action to do so.

> >

> > So, the statements of rarity of these illnesses in prior healthy

> > people is not based on any scientific evidence....it is anecdotal

> > information being presented by the CDC as sound science. It is

> > making it difficult for those who are experiencing these illnesses

> > to find proper medical care. And it is hurting us all, physically

> > and financially.

> >

> > Those who are currently being exposed to excessive amounts of mold

> > after Katrina, yet are not immunocompromised, are being left wide

> > open by the CDC to acquire serious mold and mold toxin induced

> > illneses. They are being told, runny noses, minor coughs, etc.

> > All of us on this board know that is not true and accurate

> > information...as does the CDC. Whether they want to call it rare or

> > not rare based on some fictious study of numbers of those affected,

> > they know it does happen and they are not properly warning people

> > of the potentially serious illnesses of mold.

> >

> > I guess that would be my beef with what is being put out there by

> > the CDC. I don't want to see one other person unnecessarily have to

> > go through what most of us on this board have had to go through.

> >

> > Sharon

> >

November 20, 2005

Loni,

We have had many satisfied customers with our whole-home HEPA air

purification systems. This systems attaches to your home heating /

cooling system to purify the air as it is recycled through the home.

Also, the units have activated-carbon cores to remove odors and VOCs

from the home. This wouldnt require you to move a portable HEPA

machine from room-to-room.

Carl - what are your thoughts on a whole-home HEPA air purifier

system. Additional reading:

http://www.hepacore.com/WholeHomeHEPA.html

> > > In a message dated 11/15/2005 12:22:17 AM Pacific Standard

Time,

> > > grimes@h... writes:

> > >

> > > KC and Sharon,

> > >

> > > At the risk of sounding like a traitor, don't throw the baby

out

> > > with the bathwater. There is a lot of excellent information in

this

> > > briefing, especially the warning against unnecessary testing

and

> > > being

> > > careful about remediators. I also like the statement that if

it is

> > > porous and moldy, throw it out instead of trying to clean it.

> > > Wonder what the insurance adjustors think of that?

> > >

> > > I also like that the EPA guy specifically mentions that they

> > > include data that would be applicable to those with greater

> > > sensitivity. At least it's a start.

> > >

> > > What I do disagree with, is they don't go far enough in

explaining

> > > that public health is not the same as individual health.

Therefore,

> > > what they deem as overall acceptable to the " general public "

may

> > > not be for a specific individual. That would remove some of

the

> > > support to the naysayers.

> > >

> > > Carl Grimes

> > > Healthy Habitats LLC

> > >

> > > -----

> > > > Is this i

> > > >

> > > > FEMA Announcements Last Updated: Sep 29th, 2005 - 07:29:19

> > > >

http://communitydispatch.com/artman/publish/article_2249.shtml

> > >

> > > Hey Carl,

> > >

> > > You are one who could never, ever be considered a traitor in

the

> > > fight to help mold victims! And in reality, why should there

be

> > > traitors to this issue at all? Whether one is most concerned

about

> > > the physical impact of this issue or if one is most concerned

about

> > > the financial impact of this issue....this issue is uselessly

> > > wasting many lives and much money.

> > >

> > > It is beyond me, why this even is an issue. Seems like all

would

> > > want

> > > to do everything possible to move the science forward.

> > >

> > > There is some good information in this doc. But what is

glaringly

> > > missing from the CDC is the acknowledgement that molds and mold

> > > toxins can produce severe, life threatening illnesses in prior

> > > healthly people. And there in, lays the heart of all the

> > > contention of the " Toxic Mold Issue " .

> > >

> > > Numerous times within the more comprehensive mold doc that was

> > > recently written the CDC makes statesment of " rare, little is

> > > known, in a small segment of the population, etc " .

> > >

> > > The illnesses we are all experiencing are not mere IgE mediated

> > > minor allergies, yet that is the only place where the CDC has

> > > focused any research for those who are immunocompetent.

Still they

> > > continue to make statesment of the rarity of our illnesses.

> > >

> > > We have asked numerous times that they track these symptoms

> > > indicative of serious Type III hypersensitivity reactions and

> > > mycotoxicoses. To date, they have taken no action to do so.

> > >

> > > So, the statements of rarity of these illnesses in prior

healthy

> > > people is not based on any scientific evidence....it is

anecdotal

> > > information being presented by the CDC as sound science. It

is

> > > making it difficult for those who are experiencing these

illnesses

> > > to find proper medical care. And it is hurting us all,

physically

> > > and financially.

> > >

> > > Those who are currently being exposed to excessive amounts of

mold

> > > after Katrina, yet are not immunocompromised, are being left

wide

> > > open by the CDC to acquire serious mold and mold toxin induced

> > > illneses. They are being told, runny noses, minor coughs,

etc.

> > > All of us on this board know that is not true and accurate

> > > information...as does the CDC. Whether they want to call it

rare or

> > > not rare based on some fictious study of numbers of those

affected,

> > > they know it does happen and they are not properly warning

people

> > > of the potentially serious illnesses of mold.

> > >

> > > I guess that would be my beef with what is being put out there

by

> > > the CDC. I don't want to see one other person unnecessarily

have to

> > > go through what most of us on this board have had to go

through.

> > >

> > > Sharon

> > >

November 20, 2005

Loni,

There are lots of details and nuances that get in the way of

understanding and acting effectively. Believe me, many

" professionals " often don't get beyond the assumption that their

actions accomplish their intent. I wish they would ask questions like

you and the others.

Forget the ozonator. It primarily oxidizes chemicals and has little

if any effect on particles. It might kill some mold but we already

know that isn't necessary and may well increase the release of

mycotoxins. And exposure to ozone is a no-no. Your doctor needs to

review the basic chemistry from his medical education.

Ozone doesn't clump particles together so they will fall to the

floor. Some ions that are generated with a negative charge - lower

voltage than for ozone and without the corona discharge - are better

at that. Even so, relying on sweeping and vacuuming to remove the

fallen " dust " usually just moves it back into the air. You are right

about that! Especially vacuuming because the filtering ability of the

bag is almost zero for particles (including mold) that are below 10

microns in size. It pulls the particles off the surface but blows

them into the air, increasing your exposure and before they settle

back down on the surfaces. Like a dog chasing its tail.

Yes, most cleaning will disturb the dust/mold. That's why methods

that remove without distrubing are important, like damp wiping and

HEPA filtered vacuums. They can clean surfaces with minimal

redistribution of the mold, dust, dander and other components of

dust.

But keep in mind, that no matter how sensitive you are, isn't less

exposure better than just leaving it all? You rarely have to get rid

of all of it, absolutely. If you do need it, then you also need

appropriate medical care, such as Dr Shoemaker's.

It's like cleaning a flooded house. First open the door to let the

muddy water out. The use big shovels to get most of the mud out. Then

small shovels to get into corners and edges. Then brooms to get more.

Then HEPA vacuums and damp wiping to get the rest. Finish with Q-tips

to get the nooks and crannies and finish by HEPA vacuuming all

surfaces. There are other issues but the point is, do the best you

can to remove as much as you can (based on facts, not sales claims).

It may not be perfect but then nothing is. BTW, professional mold

remediators damp wipe and HEPA vacuum all surfaces while they are

running big HEPA filters at the same time, killing two birds with one

stone.

Consider what others on this group say about cleaning. They have

direct experience about what works and what doesn't. That will help

you make better choices.

Electrostatic filters - they are better at small dust than bigger

dust and lose effectiveness as they get dirty. But the biggest

disappointment is the ones that don't have a fan to move the air. The

Clean Air Delivery Rate (CADR) I talked about a couple of weeks ago

is often 1/10 of HEPA filters that cost half as much. Where are your

precious dollars going? However, since you already have the

electrostatic don't throw it away, keep continue using it. Just get

additional HEPAs.

Now, moving any air filter, including HEPA, room to room still won't

clean the surfaces and won't improve the air much. It is like a cat

chasing its tail. Although that is different and often more amusing

to watch than when a dog chases it's tail, neither accomplishs much.

Clean the surfaces and you may not need the air filters.

Paint - if something is on a surface and doesn't come off, it is

impossible to be exposed unless you contact the surface by touching

the surface. That is true for molecules as well as particles. As for

cleaning, just use soap and water to remove the dirt, dust, dander

and mold. Using a " mold product " will remove all the others, too, and

has nothing magical about removing mold better. Also, it doesn't

remove just mold and leave the rest. So use detergent and water to

remove all of them, with less cost.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

>

> Thanks for this response: Do you think then that getting a HEPA Air

> Purifier & moving it around the house would sufficiently remove the

> mold as well as keeping your house dust free? My doctor said to do

> the ozonator & just sweep up & vacuum the mycotoxins (I know &

> KC you are having heart palpitations about now-Ha) Sounds easy but I

> know from it is not that simple. HMMMM? I guess my

> electrostatic Air Purifier isn't doing much for mold.

>

> From what I gather though, when you clean the dust you disturb the

> mold & it just floats from room to room. Sounds like you can never

> get rid of it.

>

> I didn't understand your comment about the paint that it doesn't

> come off. What doesn't come off. If you scrub the walls with a mold

> product, wouldn't you be cleaning the mold?

>

> Loni

>

November 20, 2005

Wayne,

I have seen mixed results with whole house HEPA systems. First, they

can work GREAT if other factors are accounted for. IF the inside of

the the house is clean. Again, it won't replace the dusting service

of Merry Maids. Also, IF ducts are dirty even a perfect filter won't

help because it is like blowing perfect air over a dirt pile. Second,

because your system and the others that are available are bypass

systems, they don't filter all the air that goes through the system,

only about 1/3. Running the fan continuously is needed to

sequentially clean the air. This has an energy cost and can be noisy.

It sometimes interferes with the air conditioning function. Some like

the " white " noise but others don't. Also, because it is a bypass

sytem, you still need a reasonable filter in the usual place.

The capability of VOC removal with the charcoal and/or potassium

permanganate and/or zeolite is something that typical in-line filters

cannot do. This can be a big plus.

It won't always fit in the available space, especially modular

housing and apartments. It doesn't always work, for whatever reason.

Sometimes the motor windings, insulation and the glue used in the

HEPA media causes a reaction in sensitive clients. So be sure you can

get your money back if it doesn't work or if you react to it.

Negotiate this up front.

You have identified the positive points, Wayne, and I have no

disagreement with them. But since you asked my opinion, I offered

additional information which on the surface seem only negative. I

don't mean it that way. I'm a firm believer that every product,

system and service has positive and negative effects. The key is to

consider them all so you can determine what gives you the most

positive results for the least negative ones. Google " HEPA whole

house " for additional information and options.

Sharon mentioned on another topic the need for full disclosure. That

is absolutely essential. Without it, there is no way we can be truly

responsible for ourselves, which is the most empowering action of

all.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Loni,

>

> We have had many satisfied customers with our whole-home HEPA air

> purification systems. This systems attaches to your home heating /

> cooling system to purify the air as it is recycled through the home.

> Also, the units have activated-carbon cores to remove odors and VOCs

> from the home. This wouldnt require you to move a portable HEPA

> machine from room-to-room.

>

> Carl - what are your thoughts on a whole-home HEPA air purifier

> system. Additional reading:

> http://www.hepacore.com/WholeHomeHEPA.html

November 20, 2005

This is what I do:

wet mop with a little dish soap and 1/2 C borax in the bucket. The borax is a

great mold

cleaner. I was dusting with it yesterday, and I did not get sick from dusting

like I usually

do. Wet dusting, drying as you go if you need to, and wet mopping.

I replaced my electrostatic air purifier on the furnace with a filter from home

depot to see

if it helped. I have not decided yet. I am considering a different filter.

I have an ozone machine that I use on occasion. It really works for me for

specific jobs, but

can be harmful to the lungs, so it is important to be very very careful with

them. Many

people on the group have had permanent lung damage from using them. I did not

have

any problem using them, mine was very helpful. But I was careful to use it in a

safe way.

I have a Honeywell Hepa Air Purifier in my bedroom, and it really helps in that

limited a

space.

> > > In a message dated 11/15/2005 12:22:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > > grimes@h... writes:

> > >

> > > KC and Sharon,

> > >

> > > At the risk of sounding like a traitor, don't throw the baby out

> > > with the bathwater. There is a lot of excellent information in this

> > > briefing, especially the warning against unnecessary testing and

> > > being

> > > careful about remediators. I also like the statement that if it is

> > > porous and moldy, throw it out instead of trying to clean it.

> > > Wonder what the insurance adjustors think of that?

> > >

> > > I also like that the EPA guy specifically mentions that they

> > > include data that would be applicable to those with greater

> > > sensitivity. At least it's a start.

> > >

> > > What I do disagree with, is they don't go far enough in explaining

> > > that public health is not the same as individual health. Therefore,

> > > what they deem as overall acceptable to the " general public " may

> > > not be for a specific individual. That would remove some of the

> > > support to the naysayers.

> > >

> > > Carl Grimes

> > > Healthy Habitats LLC

> > >

> > > -----

> > > > Is this i

> > > >

> > > > FEMA Announcements Last Updated: Sep 29th, 2005 - 07:29:19

> > > >

> > > > http://communitydispatch.com/artman/publish/article_2249.shtml

> > >

> > > Hey Carl,

> > >

> > > You are one who could never, ever be considered a traitor in the

> > > fight to help mold victims! And in reality, why should there be

> > > traitors to this issue at all? Whether one is most concerned about

> > > the physical impact of this issue or if one is most concerned about

> > > the financial impact of this issue....this issue is uselessly

> > > wasting many lives and much money.

> > >

> > > It is beyond me, why this even is an issue. Seems like all would

> > > want

> > > to do everything possible to move the science forward.

> > >

> > > There is some good information in this doc. But what is glaringly

> > > missing from the CDC is the acknowledgement that molds and mold

> > > toxins can produce severe, life threatening illnesses in prior

> > > healthly people. And there in, lays the heart of all the

> > > contention of the " Toxic Mold Issue " .

> > >

> > > Numerous times within the more comprehensive mold doc that was

> > > recently written the CDC makes statesment of " rare, little is

> > > known, in a small segment of the population, etc " .

> > >

> > > The illnesses we are all experiencing are not mere IgE mediated

> > > minor allergies, yet that is the only place where the CDC has

> > > focused any research for those who are immunocompetent. Still they

> > > continue to make statesment of the rarity of our illnesses.

> > >

> > > We have asked numerous times that they track these symptoms

> > > indicative of serious Type III hypersensitivity reactions and

> > > mycotoxicoses. To date, they have taken no action to do so.

> > >

> > > So, the statements of rarity of these illnesses in prior healthy

> > > people is not based on any scientific evidence....it is anecdotal

> > > information being presented by the CDC as sound science. It is

> > > making it difficult for those who are experiencing these illnesses

> > > to find proper medical care. And it is hurting us all, physically

> > > and financially.

> > >

> > > Those who are currently being exposed to excessive amounts of mold

> > > after Katrina, yet are not immunocompromised, are being left wide

> > > open by the CDC to acquire serious mold and mold toxin induced

> > > illneses. They are being told, runny noses, minor coughs, etc.

> > > All of us on this board know that is not true and accurate

> > > information...as does the CDC. Whether they want to call it rare or

> > > not rare based on some fictious study of numbers of those affected,

> > > they know it does happen and they are not properly warning people

> > > of the potentially serious illnesses of mold.

> > >

> > > I guess that would be my beef with what is being put out there by

> > > the CDC. I don't want to see one other person unnecessarily have to

> > > go through what most of us on this board have had to go through.

> > >

> > > Sharon

> > >

November 20, 2005

I have hard wood floors so I can't really wet mop. Maybe dust mop with lysol?

How do you use your ozonator? Don't you get the mycotoxin reaction? Loni

kl_clayton <kl_clayton@...> wrote: