RE: A lot of N.D.'s are fabulous trained manipulators as are some D.O.'s.

December 5, 2008

Thank you for your perspective. I agree it is political suicide to attack those who are trained and skilled. As our moderator has said, the difference with Chiropractic is intent, but if you are competent in the physical procedure of manipulation, and your are doing no harm, than this is fine. Verne is addressing this with his apparent intent of legislation, that is, make sure you know how to do it before you try. As Chiropractors we are by the nature of our intensive training, the best at manipulation. We call it adjusting because of intent. Still, there are brethren of mine who are NOT good at adjusting or manipulating. They can still be great physicians, and can be a benefit to the greater wellness of people. My point is that we should make sure those that practice with manipulation are doing it with competence and skill, but realize we don't own "manipulation". Even PT's can learn the skill. But I agree, make them prove it and put the time in to learn. They are not practicing Chiropractic, they are performing "manipulation", but it better be safe! Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724

sjerry@...; From: msmith@...Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:45:21 -0800Subject: A lot of N.D.'s are fabulous trained manipulators as are some D.O.'s.

I'll chime in here for the good of the profession and to set forth my bias up front to be both intellectually and politically honest: A lot of N.D.'s are fabulous adjusters/manipulators as are many D.O.'s.

I also believe it would be politically disastrous for the chiropractic profession to ostracize N.D.'s and D.O.'s, instead of reaching out to these "doctors" as allies to prevent non-"doctors" from engaging in certain types of manipulation. If not, you're going to get all bogged down in exactly what is defined as a "chiropractic" manipulation versus a naturopathic or osteopathic manipulation, and you'll end up accomplishing ZIP.

I do not claim to know more about the history of chiropractic and naturopathic medicine then any of you. I only desire to remind us that naturopathy is a healing science created and founded by. . . . (you guessed it). . . CHIROPRACTORS!!! Western States at one point was a college of chiropractic and naturopathic, and it didn't stop being so until relatively recently. Naturopaths used to be chiropractors who had gone on in their studies to also become naturopathic doctors. The Naturopathic College in Portland (which is generally a 5+ year program) was founded by . . . (you guessed it) . . . some chiropractors from Portland. Naturopathic manipulation is very much within the scope of practice of naturpathic physicians, and some are quite good at it (from reports I've had from their patients).

Because I do not want to offend, I'll simply leave you with an exerpt of an article that I located which sort of sets forth the history of naturopathy. Some might find it interesting. Regardless, my "legal" advice is to not commit political suicide by attempting to denigrate or appearing to attack the scope of practice of either naturopathic doctors of doctors of osteopathy. So here's to you happy reading:

Centre chiropratique Desforges - Chiropraticien - Portail Chiropratique

Modern Naturopathy History: A Chiropractic Legacy

Catégorie : Histoire

Publié par Drdesforges le 5/9/2006

Dr. Benedict Lust, a chiropractor, founded the first Naturopathic College. Dr. Bartholomew

Bastyr, another chiropractor is know as the father of modern naturopathy.

Dr. Benedict Lust (M.D., D.C., N.D.) a German doctor and chiropractor who emigrated to the U.S.

in 1892, was America & #8217;s first naturopathic physician. Although ridiculed by the

establishment for his & #8216;revolutionary & #8217; ideas of exercise, vegetarianism and healthy

living, Benedict Lust, founded the first health food store as we know it, and crystallized the

focus of naturopathy on diet and nutrition as the chief route to health. He also started the

country & #8217;s health spa, in NJ, and founded the first naturopathic college, the

American School of Naturopathy and chiropractic in 1902, in New York. & #8220;Where there is

no official recognition and regulation, you will find plotters, the thieves, the charlatans operating

on the same basis as the conscientious practitioners & #8230; ly such conditions cannot be

remedied until suitable safeguards are erected by law, or by the profession itself, around the

practice of Naturopathy. & #8221; - Benedict Lust, circa 1902, the founding father of

naturopathy. Naturopathic medicine grew through the 1910s and 1920s, but by

the 1930s and 1940s, pressure from the pharmaceutical companies, political leaders, the rise of

antibiotics, and numerous other factors caused a severe decline: In 1910, when the Carnegie

Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching published the Flexner Report which criticized many

aspects of medical education in various institutions (natural and conventional), it was mostly

seen as an attack on low-quality natural medicine education. It caused many such programs to

shut down and contributed to the popularity of conventional medicine. Schools were closed,

sanatoriums shut down, and doctors had their privileges revoked. However, because chiropractic

colleges excided the standards of education forced upon the medical institution by the

"Flexner" reform, most of them stayed open and flourished. But Naturopathic medicine, with its

herbs, Nature Cure, and holistic view of the body was considered unscientific and based on

unproven folk tradition. It therefore was almost lost. However naturopathic medicine did not go

away. It was kept alive by chiropractors in Portland, Oregon where graduates of the Western

States Chiropractic College could enrol in a 2-year postgraduate course of study and receive a

degree in naturopathy. This lasted until 1956 when the program was dropped. To keep the

practice of naturopathy going, several naturopaths and chiropractors founded the National

College of Naturopathic Medicine in 1956 in Portland, Oregon. It moved briefly to Seattle and

then returned to Portland where it is today. Very slowly Naturopathic medicine began to rise.

CHRONOLOGICAL EVENTS LEADING TO THE BIRTH OF MODERN NATUROPATHY

Chiropractic education was introduced in Portland as early as 1904 when Drs. and Eva

Marsh opened Marshes' School and Cure. In 1909, the college changed its name to Pacific

College of Chiropractic. The institution absorbed the Lindlahr College of Naturopathy in 1926

and introduced one of the first four-year courses in the profession in 1928. Pacific College of

Chiropractic entered a new phase in January 1929, when the college was purchased for

$20,000 by the former dean of the National College of Chiropractic in Chicago, Alfred

Budden, DC, ND (a chiropractor and naturopath). The timing was terrible, for the U.S. stock

market crash and the onset of the Great Depression were only nine months away. Dr. Budden

would struggle for years to keep the school afloat, eventually re-chartering the institution as the

non-profit Western States College, including instruction leading to degrees in chiropractic and

naturopathy. During his tenure at the reins of the institution (he died "in the saddle" in 1954),

the Western States College, School of Chiropractic and School of Naturopathy, would exert a

profound influence on the course of the profession, both through Budden's activities within the

National Chiropractic Association's Council on Education (today's CCE), and by way of the

several exceptional doctors he trained. In 1932 the Pacific Chiropractic College was

reorganized and became Western States College and Drugless Physicians (1932 & #8211;

1956). The College also offered a degree in naturopathy from the mid-thirties through the

mid-fifties. Now called the Western States Chiropractic College (1956 & #8211; present).

Western States College has struggled on through the decades since Budden & #8217;s demise.

The school eventually divorced itself from naturopathic education, as the NCA had been urging

since 1939, but maintained a very broad instructional program. Chiropractic and naturopathy were

taught together until about 1955 when the National Chiropractic Association stopped granting

accreditation to schools that also taught naturopathy. In the mid-1950's, when Western States

Chiropractic College in Portland decided to discontinue naturopathic training, Dr. Bastyr knew it

was time to take action, so he and few colleagues decided to open a school in Seattle. In 1956

National College of Naturopathic Medicine was born and Dr. Bastyr and other practitioners

became teachers. Dr. Bastyr, the naturopathic physician for whom Bastyr University in

Seattle is named. A chiropractor, Dr. Bartholomew Bastyr, N.D., D.C (1912-1995), is

credited with being the Father of Modern Naturopathic Medicine. Because of Bastyr & #8217;s

influence naturopaths have been at the forefront of the rebirth of homeopathy in this country.

He made sure that homeopathy shared equal emphasis with nutrition, hydrotherapy and botanical

medicine in naturopathic education. Dr. Bastyr considered manipulation the most important

therapy in his practice. He immediately went on in his studies of choice and received doctorate

degrees in naturopathy and chiropractic from Northwest Drugless Institute and Seattle

Chiropractic College, respectively. He became licensed to practice naturopathic medicine in

1936. National College of Natural Medicine (NCNM) is the oldest programmatically accredited

naturopathic medical school in North America. NCNM had its beginnings in the early 1950's, in

response to the termination of the naturopathic program at Western States Chiropractic College.

Members of the profession from Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia planned the

founding of the College and in May 1956, in Portland, Oregon.

Best Regards, G. , Gatti, Gatti, et. al.

December 6, 2008

The question, to me, seems to be qualification ... they get ~ 6 weeks worth of academia and practice, then it's on to the next speciality. Where is the diagnositc workup? Where is the postural consideration? Where is the neurologic workup/consideration? Once again, the 'outside' is considering the body on a 2 dimensional plane, without understanding the rhythms and physiology that permits or fosters good structural balance. To me, it is our 3-dimensional understanding that sets us apart.....not to mention the 2500 +/- hours of academia before we start practice!

my 2 cents on a beautiful saturday morning

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

From: dcdocbrian@...Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:00:52 -0800Subject: RE: A lot of N.D.'s are fabulous trained manipulators as are some D.O.'s.

Thank you for your perspective. I agree it is political suicide to attack those who are trained and skilled. As our moderator has said, the difference with Chiropractic is intent, but if you are competent in the physical procedure of manipulation, and your are doing no harm, than this is fine. Verne is addressing this with his apparent intent of legislation, that is, make sure you know how to do it before you try. As Chiropractors we are by the nature of our intensive training, the best at manipulation. We call it adjusting because of intent. Still, there are brethren of mine who are NOT good at adjusting or manipulating. They can still be great physicians, and can be a benefit to the greater wellness of people. My point is that we should make sure those that practice with manipulation are doing it with competence and skill, but realize we don't own "manipulation". Even PT's can learn the skill. But I agree, make them prove it and put the time in to learn. They are not practicing Chiropractic, they are performing "manipulation", but it better be safe! Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724

sjerryrocketmail; From: msmithgattilawDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:45:21 -0800Subject: A lot of N.D.'s are fabulous trained manipulators as are some D.O.'s.

I'll chime in here for the good of the profession and to set forth my bias up front to be both intellectually and politically honest: A lot of N.D.'s are fabulous adjusters/manipulators as are many D.O.'s.

I also believe it would be politically disastrous for the chiropractic profession to ostracize N.D.'s and D.O.'s, instead of reaching out to these "doctors" as allies to prevent non-"doctors" from engaging in certain types of manipulation. If not, you're going to get all bogged down in exactly what is defined as a "chiropractic" manipulation versus a naturopathic or osteopathic manipulation, and you'll end up accomplishing ZIP.

I do not claim to know more about the history of chiropractic and naturopathic medicine then any of you. I only desire to remind us that naturopathy is a healing science created and founded by. . . . (you guessed it). . . CHIROPRACTORS!!! Western States at one point was a college of chiropractic and naturopathic, and it didn't stop being so until relatively recently. Naturopaths used to be chiropractors who had gone on in their studies to also become naturopathic doctors. The Naturopathic College in Portland (which is generally a 5+ year program) was founded by . . . (you guessed it) . . . some chiropractors from Portland. Naturopathic manipulation is very much within the scope of practice of naturpathic physicians, and some are quite good at it (from reports I've had from their patients).

Because I do not want to offend, I'll simply leave you with an exerpt of an article that I located which sort of sets forth the history of naturopathy. Some might find it interesting. Regardless, my "legal" advice is to not commit political suicide by attempting to denigrate or appearing to attack the scope of practice of either naturopathic doctors of doctors of osteopathy. So here's to you happy reading:

Centre chiropratique Desforges - Chiropraticien - Portail ChiropratiqueModern Naturopathy History: A Chiropractic LegacyCatégorie : HistoirePublié par Drdesforges le 5/9/2006Dr. Benedict Lust, a chiropractor, founded the first Naturopathic College. Dr. BartholomewBastyr, another chiropractor is know as the father of modern naturopathy.Dr. Benedict Lust (M.D., D.C., N.D.) a German doctor and chiropractor who emigrated to the U.S.in 1892, was America & #8217;s first naturopathic physician. Although ridiculed by theestablishment for his & #8216;revolutionary & #8217; ideas of exercise, vegetarianism and healthyliving, Benedict Lust, founded the first health food store as we know it, and crystallized thefocus of naturopathy on diet and nutrition as the chief route to health. He also started thecountry & #8217;s health spa, in NJ, and founded the first naturopathic college, theAmerican School of Naturopathy and chiropractic in 1902, in New York. & #8220;Where there isno official recognition and regulation, you will find plotters, the thieves, the charlatans operatingon the same basis as the conscientious practitioners & #8230; ly such conditions cannot beremedied until suitable safeguards are erected by law, or by the profession itself, around thepractice of Naturopathy. & #8221; - Benedict Lust, circa 1902, the founding father ofnaturopathy. Naturopathic medicine grew through the 1910s and 1920s, but bythe 1930s and 1940s, pressure from the pharmaceutical companies, political leaders, the rise ofantibiotics, and numerous other factors caused a severe decline: In 1910, when the CarnegieFoundation for the Advancement of Teaching published the Flexner Report which criticized manyaspects of medical education in various institutions (natural and conventional), it was mostlyseen as an attack on low-quality natural medicine education. It caused many such programs toshut down and contributed to the popularity of conventional medicine. Schools were closed,sanatoriums shut down, and doctors had their privileges revoked. However, because chiropracticcolleges excided the standards of education forced upon the medical institution by the"Flexner" reform, most of them stayed open and flourished. But Naturopathic medicine, with itsherbs, Nature Cure, and holistic view of the body was considered unscientific and based onunproven folk tradition. It therefore was almost lost. However naturopathic medicine did not goaway. It was kept alive by chiropractors in Portland, Oregon where graduates of the WesternStates Chiropractic College could enrol in a 2-year postgraduate course of study and receive adegree in naturopathy. This lasted until 1956 when the program was dropped. To keep thepractice of naturopathy going, several naturopaths and chiropractors founded the NationalCollege of Naturopathic Medicine in 1956 in Portland, Oregon. It moved briefly to Seattle andthen returned to Portland where it is today. Very slowly Naturopathic medicine began to rise.CHRONOLOGICAL EVENTS LEADING TO THE BIRTH OF MODERN NATUROPATHYChiropractic education was introduced in Portland as early as 1904 when Drs. and EvaMarsh opened Marshes' School and Cure. In 1909, the college changed its name to PacificCollege of Chiropractic. The institution absorbed the Lindlahr College of Naturopathy in 1926and introduced one of the first four-year courses in the profession in 1928. Pacific College ofChiropractic entered a new phase in January 1929, when the college was purchased for$20,000 by the former dean of the National College of Chiropractic in Chicago, AlfredBudden, DC, ND (a chiropractor and naturopath). The timing was terrible, for the U.S. stockmarket crash and the onset of the Great Depression were only nine months away. Dr. Buddenwould struggle for years to keep the school afloat, eventually re-chartering the institution as thenon-profit Western States College, including instruction leading to degrees in chiropractic andnaturopathy. During his tenure at the reins of the institution (he died "in the saddle" in 1954),the Western States College, School of Chiropractic and School of Naturopathy, would exert aprofound influence on the course of the profession, both through Budden's activities within theNational Chiropractic Association's Council on Education (today's CCE), and by way of theseveral exceptional doctors he trained. In 1932 the Pacific Chiropractic College wasreorganized and became Western States College and Drugless Physicians (1932 & #8211;1956). The College also offered a degree in naturopathy from the mid-thirties through themid-fifties. Now called the Western States Chiropractic College (1956 & #8211; present).Western States College has struggled on through the decades since Budden & #8217;s demise.The school eventually divorced itself from naturopathic education, as the NCA had been urgingsince 1939, but maintained a very broad instructional program. Chiropractic and naturopathy weretaught together until about 1955 when the National Chiropractic Association stopped grantingaccreditation to schools that also taught naturopathy. In the mid-1950's, when Western StatesChiropractic College in Portland decided to discontinue naturopathic training, Dr. Bastyr knew itwas time to take action, so he and few colleagues decided to open a school in Seattle. In 1956National College of Naturopathic Medicine was born and Dr. Bastyr and other practitionersbecame teachers. Dr. Bastyr, the naturopathic physician for whom Bastyr University inSeattle is named. A chiropractor, Dr. Bartholomew Bastyr, N.D., D.C (1912-1995), iscredited with being the Father of Modern Naturopathic Medicine. Because of Bastyr & #8217;sinfluence naturopaths have been at the forefront of the rebirth of homeopathy in this country.He made sure that homeopathy shared equal emphasis with nutrition, hydrotherapy and botanicalmedicine in naturopathic education. Dr. Bastyr considered manipulation the most importanttherapy in his practice. He immediately went on in his studies of choice and received doctoratedegrees in naturopathy and chiropractic from Northwest Drugless Institute and SeattleChiropractic College, respectively. He became licensed to practice naturopathic medicine in1936. National College of Natural Medicine (NCNM) is the oldest programmatically accreditednaturopathic medical school in North America. NCNM had its beginnings in the early 1950's, inresponse to the termination of the naturopathic program at Western States Chiropractic College.Members of the profession from Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia planned thefounding of the College and in May 1956, in Portland, Oregon.Best Regards, G. , Gatti, Gatti, et. al.

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December 9, 2008

It's about competency and intent. I'm not sure how "A LOT" of ND's or DO's or even chiropractors for that matter become "fabulous"adjusters without performing the task daily for years on end. Without performing the workup, understanding the ins and outs of what is actually being done, without a firm understanding of the biomechanics, neurology, vector forces, facet alignment etc. etc. it is simply cracking your back.

Theres A LOT of construction guys that are excellent at picking you up off of the ground, grasping you in the likes of a bear and cavitating every single bone in your spine. Their subjects claim that it feels wonderful.

Personally, if i'm a defendent in the courtroom for a murder i did not commit, i'd prefer and demand an attorney trained in criminal Law. My neighbor is a divorce attorney who has done a criminal case here and there. Perhaps he wouldn't be my best option. In fact, he should, and would be the first to admit this and get me the appropriate representation.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta St. PDX, OR 97211www.spinetreepdx.com

A lot of N.D.'s are fabulous trained manipulators as are some D.O.'s.