Re: pushcrash about different 'mold docs'

[Guest guest]

,

Instead of us trying to explain it to you, it would be more

enlightening if you ordered/read his book, " Mold Warriors. " Really

any of his 4 books gives you a good insight into his procedures,

reseach, etc. And yes, Dr.Shoemaker does look at the genetic makeup,

and other factors. I do agree, with alot you do have to say, as far

as trying to save the exposed from continued financial hardship.

Many of us here have been doing that exact thing for several years.

With your help and insight I'm sure you could offer many great

suggestions.

KC

>

> I would like it if you you could enumerate the therapy that Dr.

> Shoemaker suggests. I haven't spoken to him and I wasn't picking

on him --

> more so the guys that I have had experience with. I had just

spoken to

> someone yesterday who was referred to me for advice after

$100,000.00 in

> medical testing and 'treatment' etc. She has nothing left now, --

but has

> never been in a sauna for example! I was shocked that she had

done a full

> year of daily hyperbarcis which is much more expensive than home

O2 or sauna

> and made someone a pile of money. I think it is important to go

to someone

> that tries to reduce the 'Total Load' by all means thus far

known. If they

> suggest a few supplements and sporonox I wonder how that will

work. I will

> try contacting Dr. Shoemaker again. I am not saying that he is

not a

> benevolent sole but from personal experience in conversations

with Heuser,

> Marinkovich, Ordog, Gray, Kilburne, Gruen they don't all realize

how

> important it is to go to THE ENVIRONMENTAL DOC! I am a physician

and I

> know how all of this works. Physicians are highly unaware of

techniques and

> treatments used by doctors other than themselves. Also doctors

do not feel

> that it is their job to refer you to the 'best' -- they have to

feel that

> they are the best. Because they are basically good and selfless.

Often

> they don't compare what is offered by other practitioners because

they don't

> time or motivation. Allergy testing and treatment is very

expensive to set

> up ( about 30,000) -- not to mention you have to take courses in

doing it

> and conceptualize it. Most allergists in the country hate the

thought of

> neutralization and provocation. Most mold docs are not

environmental docs

> -- it seems.

> You don't have to defend your individual doctors but I will

warn you

> that the basic premise (decrease the total load) of environmental

medicine

> is essential to have as the montra of your doctor. I feel bad for

people

> who use all of their time and money , don't get well, but could if

they saw

> the right practitioner. Lets review the treatments offered by

Shoemaker

> instead of me asking him -- can you list them for me? Each

supplement etc.

> It would be great for all of us. I am sure he is brilliant. I am

not sure

> what percentage of his patients are chemically sensitive. I am

not sure

> what percentage get well. but the other guys I referred to were

often

> lacking comprehensive knowledge about foods, chemicals,

pesticides,heavy

> metals, immune system, Sauna, genetics of detox and iv

> supplementation/chelation remediation, having an oasis in which to

heal etc.

> They all admit they don't practice environmental medicine. They

haven't

> had the time to learn all that yet! This stuff seems basic but it

is

> skipped by people not boarded in Environmental.

> The mycotoxin exposure is only one part of the problem. Why

you can't

> detoxify those compounds based on your individual genetic

biochemical

> capabilities is another. What else you have been or are being

exposed to

> that is confounding is another. Your nutritional deficiencies and

allergies

> are more factors. Just dealing with one aspect of the illness is

unlikely

> to work -- I think. For me removing a piece of high voltage

dental work

> helped my damaged autonomic nervous system! I figured that out

from reading

> Lieberman's web site. The crown went in (2000) as I as exposed

to the mold

> -- maybe that is why I got so sick -- the two factors. (This is

called oral

> galvanism).

> If Dr. Shoemaker is emphasing neutralization and provocation,

sauna and

> iv nutrition, O2, immune modulation than he does not have the

flaws of some

> of these other mold docs. We (medicine as a whole) need all sorts

of mold

> docs -- researchers, ones who publish, thinkers. But what a

patient needs

> really is just a practitioner --a clinician. I am trying to

explain that

> the two have different focuses and having been through this to the

point of

> near death I am telling you the insider's view. Every doctor has

his

> drawbacks -- just try to go to one who does neutralization and

provocation

> if you can. You can use those shots ( or sublingual drops)for

ever -- and

> there is no substitute. I am trying to give you the benefit of

having

> already been through the whole thing and squeaked out to perhaps

work again.

> I was dying right in front of the eyes of doctors who specialize

in these

> chemically injured mold patients and nothing was offered quickly

enough.

> Had I not flown to a conference on chemical sensitivity in 2003

and bumped

> into all the lecturers I never would have figured out who to go

to. It was

> obvious that the sickest patients went to one place so I forced

myself to

> crawl there. I am definitely angry that I wasn't helped more by

doctors who

> think they take care of mold patients and the chemically injured.

They

> should give us the option of referral and give us literature to

read like

> Rapp's Toxic World. It lists some of the leading places for

treatment and

> explains the field well. I recommend it. (order videos as well

> Environmentally Sick Schools explains environmental illness, mold

reaction,

> allergy testing etc and is great too! 800 787-8780. I highly

recommend

> this VIDEO!!!

> I hope to make it easier for patients and regular doctors/

students to

> understand environmental illness and medicine. So that when you

arrive for

> care at a doctor's office there are videos that explain it all.

Many of us

> cannot read books for years until we get well enough to touch

paper again!

> Are their others who couldn't touch paper for a while who can

respond to

> this idea? Sorry to be long winded but I think this is a really

important

> political issue that we should be able to talk about. I think all

the docs

> have downsides but start with the basics (EM) and then go to

additional

> practitioners for newer and complimentary ideas which may aid in

your

> recovery. I just want the best for all of you guys.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I am not saying that he is not a benevolent sole but from

personal experience in conversations with Heuser, Marinkovich,

Ordog, Gray, Kilburne, Gruen they don't all realize how important it

is to go to THE ENVIRONMENTAL DOC! <

Wow! My IDENTICAL COMPLAINT! And with the same docs too!

If I had been passive and amenable to the therapies that were

proposed to me, I'd be agonizingly incapacitated or dead instead of

hiking and living in relative comfort!

I bailed and went ALL-OUT on the avoidance lifestyle instead.

It was cheaper and more effective, and judging by what I've heard on

this board for so many years - it was the best decision I ever made.

And even though I am not a patient of Dr Shoemaker, he is the ONLY

physician to be interested enough in my experience to carry on a

dialogue. However, we both realize that all-out avoidance is a

desperate option that most people cannot accomplish.

I appreciate the work that various docs who are trying to help are

putting into this problem, but when I was really up against a wall,

and just looking for my next breath of air, they revealed their

ignorance of environmental options and a strange lack of interest in

learning about extreme measures - all except for Dr Shoemaker.

So I'm pretty darn impressed with him.

-

[Guest guest]

,

The Shoemaker protocol meets many of the criteria you so astutely

point out. Because you said you aren't familiar I have attached his

peer-reviewed, published paper. (It will go only to your e-mail, the

server will detach it). There is specific information on his

web site www.chronicneurotoxins.com

He specifically identifies those that meet his requirments and his

success rate certainly seems much much higher (I have no inside

info). I've personally seen cases of dramatic improvement and heard

of nearly zero that were harmed by it.

We all want the same thing. I can't speak for others but I have

experienced personally the types of doctors you are angry at - as am

I - but also by my clients on a daily basis that have been harmed

exactly as you say. I also know ones that feel they were harmed by

the ones you honor.

The reason is that the exposure sources and levels are so varied, the

suceptibility so individual and the impact so personal that what

works for one doesn't necessarily work for others. Each doctor has

their personal style that they apply to their professionalism. There

are two environmental doctors where I live and they refer patients

between themselves based on the situation and their own strengths.

did a survey of the chemically sensitive about 10

years ago. Avoidance was the only protocol that had a success rate

anywhere greater than 30%. All others were well below that and very

mixed. What worked for one nearly killed another. And visa versa.

I've never been to Dr Rae's clinic but many of my clients have been

and I've met him. I've been through the original sauna program that

Dr Rae used as his model, modified for those more chemically

reactive. In fact, I was at the HealthMed clinic until the day before

Dr Rae arrived to originally observe. So I know the program.

There are a significant number of people who are primarily chemically

senstive, but in my 18+ years of personal and professional consulting

experience there are many more whose chemical sensitivity is

secondary to mold and other biotoxin exposure. For those there is

little improvement addressing the chemical exposures, but dramatic

improvement adddressing the mold exposures.

I wholeheartedly agree with your goal to educate doctors and patients

about the role of environmental exposures and health. Absolutely

necessary! I'm sending you a private e-mail about that.

Please don't castigate us. We've been through enough. We need the

help and support of doctors such as yourself, not words that cause

division and doubt or trigger more fear.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> I would like it if you you could enumerate the therapy that Dr.

> Shoemaker suggests. I haven't spoken to him and I wasn't picking on

> him -- more so the guys that I have had experience with. I had just

> spoken to someone yesterday who was referred to me for advice after

> $100,000.00 in medical testing and 'treatment' etc. She has nothing

> left now, --but has never been in a sauna for example! I was shocked

> that she had done a full year of daily hyperbarcis which is much more

> expensive than home O2 or sauna and made someone a pile of money. I

> think it is important to go to someone that tries to reduce the

> 'Total Load' by all means thus far known. If they suggest a few

> supplements and sporonox I wonder how that will work. I will try

> contacting Dr. Shoemaker again. I am not saying that he is not a

> benevolent sole but from personal experience in conversations with

> Heuser, Marinkovich, Ordog, Gray, Kilburne, Gruen they don't all

> realize how important it is to go to THE ENVIRONMENTAL DOC! I am a

> physician and I know how all of this works. Physicians are highly

> unaware of techniques and treatments used by doctors other than

> themselves. Also doctors do not feel that it is their job to refer

> you to the 'best' -- they have to feel that they are the best.

> Because they are basically good and selfless. Often they don't

> compare what is offered by other practitioners because they don't time

> or motivation. Allergy testing and treatment is very expensive to set

> up ( about 30,000) -- not to mention you have to take courses in doing

> it and conceptualize it. Most allergists in the country hate the

> thought of neutralization and provocation. Most mold docs are not

> environmental docs -- it seems.

> You don't have to defend your individual doctors but I will warn

> you

> that the basic premise (decrease the total load) of environmental

> medicine is essential to have as the montra of your doctor. I feel

> bad for people who use all of their time and money , don't get well,

> but could if they saw the right practitioner. Lets review the

> treatments offered by Shoemaker instead of me asking him -- can you

> list them for me? Each supplement etc. It would be great for all of

> us. I am sure he is brilliant. I am not sure what percentage of his

> patients are chemically sensitive. I am not sure what percentage get

> well. but the other guys I referred to were often lacking

> comprehensive knowledge about foods, chemicals, pesticides,heavy

> metals, immune system, Sauna, genetics of detox and iv

> supplementation/chelation remediation, having an oasis in which to

> heal etc. They all admit they don't practice environmental medicine.

> They haven't had the time to learn all that yet! This stuff seems

> basic but it is skipped by people not boarded in Environmental.

> The mycotoxin exposure is only one part of the problem. Why you

> can't

> detoxify those compounds based on your individual genetic biochemical

> capabilities is another. What else you have been or are being exposed

> to that is confounding is another. Your nutritional deficiencies and

> allergies are more factors. Just dealing with one aspect of the

> illness is unlikely to work -- I think. For me removing a piece of

> high voltage dental work helped my damaged autonomic nervous system!

> I figured that out from reading Lieberman's web site. The crown went

> in (2000) as I as exposed to the mold -- maybe that is why I got so

> sick -- the two factors. (This is called oral galvanism).

> If Dr. Shoemaker is emphasing neutralization and provocation,

> sauna and

> iv nutrition, O2, immune modulation than he does not have the flaws of

> some of these other mold docs. We (medicine as a whole) need all

> sorts of mold docs -- researchers, ones who publish, thinkers. But

> what a patient needs really is just a practitioner --a clinician. I

> am trying to explain that the two have different focuses and having

> been through this to the point of near death I am telling you the

> insider's view. Every doctor has his drawbacks -- just try to go to

> one who does neutralization and provocation if you can. You can use

> those shots ( or sublingual drops)for ever -- and there is no

> substitute. I am trying to give you the benefit of having already

> been through the whole thing and squeaked out to perhaps work again. I

> was dying right in front of the eyes of doctors who specialize in

> these chemically injured mold patients and nothing was offered quickly

> enough. Had I not flown to a conference on chemical sensitivity in

> 2003 and bumped into all the lecturers I never would have figured out

> who to go to. It was obvious that the sickest patients went to one

> place so I forced myself to crawl there. I am definitely angry that I

> wasn't helped more by doctors who think they take care of mold

> patients and the chemically injured. They should give us the option

> of referral and give us literature to read like Rapp's Toxic World.

> It lists some of the leading places for treatment and explains the

> field well. I recommend it. (order videos as well Environmentally

> Sick Schools explains environmental illness, mold reaction, allergy

> testing etc and is great too! 800 787-8780. I highly recommend this

> VIDEO!!!

> I hope to make it easier for patients and regular doctors/

> students to

> understand environmental illness and medicine. So that when you

> arrive for care at a doctor's office there are videos that explain it

> all. Many of us cannot read books for years until we get well enough

> to touch paper again! Are their others who couldn't touch paper for a

> while who can respond to this idea? Sorry to be long winded but I

> think this is a really important political issue that we should be

> able to talk about. I think all the docs have downsides but start

> with the basics (EM) and then go to additional practitioners for newer

> and complimentary ideas which may aid in your recovery. I just want

> the best for all of you guys.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

On this web page, you will find a number of papers that describe the work he

and his coauthors have done....

http://www.moldwarriors.com/recentpublications.htm

I have not tried his protocol yet, but I'm hoping to.. (trying to work with

my existing doctors rather than find new ones)

Its the only one that seems to have this uge community behind it saying 'it

works'. Id have to be blind not to see that.

>

[Guest guest]

Dr Shoemaker has published several books for the layman, his latest,

Mold Warriors, outlines his tests and treatments, I suggest you read

it. He has also published many professionel papers

>

> I would like it if you you could enumerate the therapy that Dr.

> Shoemaker suggests. I haven't spoken to him and I wasn't picking

on him --

> more so the guys that I have had experience with. I had just

spoken to

> someone yesterday who was referred to me for advice after

$100,000.00 in

> medical testing and 'treatment' etc. She has nothing left now, --

but has

> never been in a sauna for example! I was shocked that she had

done a full

> year of daily hyperbarcis which is much more expensive than home

O2 or sauna

> and made someone a pile of money. I think it is important to go

to someone

> that tries to reduce the 'Total Load' by all means thus far

known. If they

> suggest a few supplements and sporonox I wonder how that will

work. I will

> try contacting Dr. Shoemaker again. I am not saying that he is

not a

> benevolent sole but from personal experience in conversations

with Heuser,

> Marinkovich, Ordog, Gray, Kilburne, Gruen they don't all realize

how

> important it is to go to THE ENVIRONMENTAL DOC! I am a physician

and I

> know how all of this works. Physicians are highly unaware of

techniques and

> treatments used by doctors other than themselves. Also doctors

do not feel

> that it is their job to refer you to the 'best' -- they have to

feel that

> they are the best. Because they are basically good and selfless.

Often

> they don't compare what is offered by other practitioners because

they don't

> time or motivation. Allergy testing and treatment is very

expensive to set

> up ( about 30,000) -- not to mention you have to take courses in

doing it

> and conceptualize it. Most allergists in the country hate the

thought of

> neutralization and provocation. Most mold docs are not

environmental docs

> -- it seems.

> You don't have to defend your individual doctors but I will

warn you

> that the basic premise (decrease the total load) of environmental

medicine

> is essential to have as the montra of your doctor. I feel bad for

people

> who use all of their time and money , don't get well, but could if

they saw

> the right practitioner. Lets review the treatments offered by

Shoemaker

> instead of me asking him -- can you list them for me? Each

supplement etc.

> It would be great for all of us. I am sure he is brilliant. I am

not sure

> what percentage of his patients are chemically sensitive. I am

not sure

> what percentage get well. but the other guys I referred to were

often

> lacking comprehensive knowledge about foods, chemicals,

pesticides,heavy

> metals, immune system, Sauna, genetics of detox and iv

> supplementation/chelation remediation, having an oasis in which to

heal etc.

> They all admit they don't practice environmental medicine. They

haven't

> had the time to learn all that yet! This stuff seems basic but it

is

> skipped by people not boarded in Environmental.

> The mycotoxin exposure is only one part of the problem. Why

you can't

> detoxify those compounds based on your individual genetic

biochemical

> capabilities is another. What else you have been or are being

exposed to

> that is confounding is another. Your nutritional deficiencies and

allergies

> are more factors. Just dealing with one aspect of the illness is

unlikely

> to work -- I think. For me removing a piece of high voltage

dental work

> helped my damaged autonomic nervous system! I figured that out

from reading

> Lieberman's web site. The crown went in (2000) as I as exposed

to the mold

> -- maybe that is why I got so sick -- the two factors. (This is

called oral

> galvanism).

> If Dr. Shoemaker is emphasing neutralization and provocation,

sauna and

> iv nutrition, O2, immune modulation than he does not have the

flaws of some

> of these other mold docs. We (medicine as a whole) need all sorts

of mold

> docs -- researchers, ones who publish, thinkers. But what a

patient needs

> really is just a practitioner --a clinician. I am trying to

explain that

> the two have different focuses and having been through this to the

point of

> near death I am telling you the insider's view. Every doctor has

his

> drawbacks -- just try to go to one who does neutralization and

provocation

> if you can. You can use those shots ( or sublingual drops)for

ever -- and

> there is no substitute. I am trying to give you the benefit of

having

> already been through the whole thing and squeaked out to perhaps

work again.

> I was dying right in front of the eyes of doctors who specialize

in these

> chemically injured mold patients and nothing was offered quickly

enough.

> Had I not flown to a conference on chemical sensitivity in 2003

and bumped

> into all the lecturers I never would have figured out who to go

to. It was

> obvious that the sickest patients went to one place so I forced

myself to

> crawl there. I am definitely angry that I wasn't helped more by

doctors who

> think they take care of mold patients and the chemically injured.

They

> should give us the option of referral and give us literature to

read like

> Rapp's Toxic World. It lists some of the leading places for

treatment and

> explains the field well. I recommend it. (order videos as well

> Environmentally Sick Schools explains environmental illness, mold

reaction,

> allergy testing etc and is great too! 800 787-8780. I highly

recommend

> this VIDEO!!!

> I hope to make it easier for patients and regular doctors/

students to

> understand environmental illness and medicine. So that when you

arrive for

> care at a doctor's office there are videos that explain it all.

Many of us

> cannot read books for years until we get well enough to touch

paper again!

> Are their others who couldn't touch paper for a while who can

respond to

> this idea? Sorry to be long winded but I think this is a really

important

> political issue that we should be able to talk about. I think all

the docs

> have downsides but start with the basics (EM) and then go to

additional

> practitioners for newer and complimentary ideas which may aid in

your

> recovery. I just want the best for all of you guys.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I do think that if it isn't your intention to trash Shoemaker, then you

shouldn't do so - particularly since you don't know him or his work, which is a

situation I'm sure you can rectify if you want to. It's not always easy to get

to him. He's a busy guy.

As to his protocol(s), I will direct you to www.moldwarriors.com. You can get

his

book(s) there, and form your own opinion. Do it through a plastic bag, if you

need to. It's worth the read. He never set out to be a " mold doctor " , and this

is not all he treats. He arrived at this sorry state (which I'm sure he has

cause to regret at times) by using his head and applying what he knows. He does

not practice cookie cutter medicine, so I would be remiss in trying to list it

all here, even if I thought I knew it all or could really explain it clearly in

a few paragraphs. I can assure you, though - there is no $100,000 price tag

involved. I'm only down a few hundred so far with insurance, and well worth it

so far.

Every single interested and motivated physician is absolutely vital to us at

this point. There are creeps on the scene, sure. But they do get discovered and

talked about amongst us. The good ones get found out, too. I wish it were

simpler, but this is all kind of an informal thing that came into being simply

because there was a dire need for it. If a treatment is problematic, phones

ring. If a physician is rude or insensitive, phones ring. If things go well,

someone recovers nicely, or a lawsuit is won, same thing. There's not a soul

getting rich around here, and nearly everything is done by patients themselves,

or by various pros who graciously donate their personal time to the effort. No

ranks or files, just people trying to survive this mess. There's a list in the

files section of some of the physicians we know are having some success with

people like us, if you care to have a look around. If you have additional names

to recommend, by all means go for it. New people join every

day, and requests for recommendations are constant.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

[Guest guest]

Just a little information regarding physicians. KC has been kind

enough to put actual treating physicians in the files section of

. The Dr's listed there are the real deal. This is not

the case with Mold-help.org, and since there is a reference to it on

physicians file I needed to speak out. I have written

to Mold-help.org about specific Dr's I have personal experience with

and they have not removed them from their list. To those searching

for a treating physician I offer a word of warning about some Dr's

listed on Mold-help.org's site: Not everyone listed treats

biotoxin/mold illness. As a matter of fact, on the NJ list there

are many who either don't treat or don't have the slightest idea how

to test and treat mold illness.

For those of you in and around NJ looking for Dr's here is the

story: Dr. Theodore Falk is an allergy Dr, claims to have treated

mold victims, but didn't order any significant blood work and his

treatment protocol involved going into his office for

allery 'desensitazion' shots twice weekly for up to five years. Dr.

Steinfeld has no experience or desire to treat mold victims.

For those with CFS, he is glad to dispense vitamin shots. Look him

up and check out his website if this interests you. Dr.

Podell is not taking new patients, and neither is Dr. Oleske.

There seem to be new additions to the list that I will look into,

but simple questioning of any office you call should let you know if

they are qualified. If the person you get on the phone doesn't have

an answer, ask to speak to someone there who does. I would hate to

have people spend their hard eared money and invest their hope in

those who will do nothing to treat biotoxin/mold victims. For those

calling a Dr's office for the first time, ask the hard questions. I

have been a pain in more than one office managers behind, but am to

the point that my questioning quickly rules out those not qualified.

ContaminatedNJ

>

> Well, I do think that if it isn't your intention to trash

Shoemaker, then you shouldn't do so - particularly since you don't

know him or his work, which is a situation I'm sure you can rectify

if you want to. It's not always easy to get to him. He's a busy guy.

>

> As to his protocol(s), I will direct you to

www.moldwarriors.com. You can get his

> book(s) there, and form your own opinion. Do it through a

plastic bag, if you need to. It's worth the read. He never set out

to be a " mold doctor " , and this is not all he treats. He arrived at

this sorry state (which I'm sure he has cause to regret at times) by

using his head and applying what he knows. He does not practice

cookie cutter medicine, so I would be remiss in trying to list it

all here, even if I thought I knew it all or could really explain it

clearly in a few paragraphs. I can assure you, though - there is no

$100,000 price tag involved. I'm only down a few hundred so far with

insurance, and well worth it so far.

>

> Every single interested and motivated physician is absolutely

vital to us at this point. There are creeps on the scene, sure. But

they do get discovered and talked about amongst us. The good ones

get found out, too. I wish it were simpler, but this is all kind of

an informal thing that came into being simply because there was a

dire need for it. If a treatment is problematic, phones ring. If a

physician is rude or insensitive, phones ring. If things go well,

someone recovers nicely, or a lawsuit is won, same thing. There's

not a soul getting rich around here, and nearly everything is done

by patients themselves, or by various pros who graciously donate

their personal time to the effort. No ranks or files, just people

trying to survive this mess. There's a list in the files section of

some of the physicians we know are having some success with people

like us, if you care to have a look around. If you have additional

names to recommend, by all means go for it. New people join every

> day, and requests for recommendations are constant.

>

>

>

> Serena

>

> There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original

premise.

> ...

Ayn Rand, paraphrased

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

>

>