Host Steve Curwood talks with Dr. Solomon

[Guest guest]

New Orleans Mold

http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=05-P13-

00047 & segmentID=1

Air Date: Week of November 25, 2005

According to the Natural Resources Defense Council, mold spore

levels in many parts of New Orleans are two to four times normal

levels. Despite government safety warnings, residents are being

allowed back into parts of the city with unsafe mold contamination

counts. Many locals are complaining of runny noses, sore throats and

a persistent cough. Host Steve Curwood talks with Dr. ,

senior scientist for NRDC, which conducted independent mold

measurements, and Dr. Dick , former head of the Center for

Environmental Health at the Centers for Disease Control.

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CURWOOD: From the and Ted Stanley Studios in Somerville,

Massachusetts, this is Living on Earth. I'm Steve Curwood.

Many people returning to New Orleans have reported sore throats,

runny noses, and a nagging hack that has been coined the " Katrina

cough. " Some experts are linking the cough to extremely high levels

of mold coming from the soggy wreckage left behind by the extensive

flooding of the city. With city officials authorizing return to some

areas the government is recommending that people use inexpensive

face masks to keep from inhaling mold spores. But so far there have

been no official counts of mold levels.

Joining me is Physician , a senior scientist for the

Natural Resources Defense Council, who conducted her own tests of

mold in New Orleans in October. Also on the line is Dr.

, former head of the Center for Environmental Health at the

Centers for Disease Control. Dr. , from what you saw on the

ground in New Orleans, just how serious is the mold contamination?

Dr. suited up in protective gear when she conducted

mold testing in New Orleans. (Photo courtesy of NRDC)

SOLOMON: We found disturbingly high levels of mold both outdoors and

in. In areas that were not flooded or not as affected, we found mold

counts that were what one would expect in the Gulf Coast this time

of year. The levels in the flooded areas were two to four times

higher, and they were at levels that would be considered a health

risk for people with allergies or asthma. The indoor levels were

stunningly high. We had mold spore counts of 650,000 spores per

cubic meter. The levels we found were 500 or more times the levels

that would be of concern in your house or mine.

CURWOOD: Dr. , what's the problem with mold spores? What can

they do to people?

JACKSON: These are complex microorganisms that your body develops

immunity to, and that's why you have allergies and begin sneezing

and your eyes burn and the rest. Certain individuals can actually

have direct toxic effects from the mold. And, in fact, if you have

impaired immunity, the mold can begin to grow in your body and you

have an inability to eradicate it. So simply because we can't see it

doesn't mean we should ignore it and pay no attention. This can make

people quite ill, it can set off asthma attacks. People can die from

an asthma attack.

You really have to think about who are the people being exposed. One

is a healthy person in a work setting – is going to need protective

equipment. We are going to have to clean up those areas. Two is that

folks that are at some immune or other kind of concern, one is going

to have to think about how you also protect them. And actually have

gradations of how they go into those areas.

CURWOOD: So the local authorities in New Orleans have said, Hey,

it's okay to go back into these areas. They are urging people to

wear protective gear. Does this make sense from your perspective,

Dr. ?

SOLOMON: The zip codes that have been reopened for habitation,

unfortunately, include some of the ones that had the highest mold

levels in our study. That's probably because a lot of that mold is

being disturbed; a lot of people are ripping out drywall and sheet

rock and the mold is flying around in the air. It, in my mind, would

be wiser to wait until the dust settles, quite literally, and the

mold spores settle, before having people back in that community.

CURWOOD: Dr. , what would be your advice as to the re-

population of these areas?

JACKSON: I'm a little reluctant to say one size fits all. I can

easily imagine a family that's been living in a motel room, and the

children have been going to a distant school that they don't know.

People are lonely for their family and their friends. There are real

costs for those families as well. So folks are facing decisions that

at some level are pretty personal, and I think the important thing

is to get them the information they need. Here are what the

exposures are; here are the ways you can protect yourself. But I'm

reluctant to simply keep people out who have been displaced now for

weeks and weeks and weeks because of measurements we've taken. That

said, it is absolutely appropriate to be very concerned about these

exposures.

CURWOOD: From your experience as a state and federal regulator, what

responsibility do you think that the state or the federal government

should have, in terms of measuring these mold levels in New Orleans?

JACKSON: The proper role of a place like CDC is to offer guidance

and recommendations – here is how you can reduce levels, here is how

you can protect yourself – and controls and protections both for

workers and for the public.

CURWOOD: Why do you think the EPA or another government agency

hasn't stepped in to test for this mold? Why is a private

organization like the Natural Resources Defense Council the source

of information at this point?

JACKSON: I can't speculate. I suspect that they're feeling so

overwhelmed with threats that are perfectly visible that these that

are less visible, one is slower to begin to grasp and grapple with

these.

CURWOOD: How does one dispose of moldy materials safely to not

aggravate the health situation, Dr. ?

Dr. looks at mold on a house wall in New Orleans.

(Photo courtesy of NRDC)

SOLOMON: People need to get rid of everything that can provide a

home for mold. Unfortunately, that means throwing out all the

furniture, ripping out the carpets, ripping out all the drywall, and

basically cleaning out the home all the way down to the studs. The

houses also need to be aired out thoroughly before the inside is

rebuilt. It's quite a production, it's going on all over the city

right now, and I'm pleased to say that when all of that work is done

I would anticipate that the mold levels will come down. In the

meantime, though, we have a serious health concern.

CURWOOD: If authorities were to come to you and say, Look, what do

we do with all this moldy stuff? What would be the safe way to get

rid of this so it doesn't aggravate public health any further? Dr.

, what would you tell them?

JACKSON: You know, I think after disasters one has this frantic

desire to take care of what needs to be taken care of. I've seen

over and over again that one of the major effects is really the

emotional trauma the communities go through. And cleanup becomes

almost its own – people become obsessed with the cleanup and

oftentimes don't regard or worry enough about their own protection.

And I think the levels that have been laid out here really point out

that, you know, this may seem small, it may seem invisible right

now; over time we'll realize, Oh my God, we should have made sure

that everyone had the proper protections, the masks and the rest.

CURWOOD: I want to thank you both for taking this time. Dr.

is a professor at the School of Public Health at the

University of California at Berkeley, and Dr. is a

senior scientist for the NRDC and clinical assistant professor at

the University of California at San Francisco Medical School. Thank

you both.

SOLOMON: Thank you.

JACKSON: Thank you, this is an important show.