Re: Chemicals-Bob

[Guest guest]

...>>>-----Original Message-----

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Bob

since Dr Rea is using

aluminm foil to stop mold spore from getting into a room, that makes me

think that aluminum foil can be used? I am not aware where I can buy

rolls of foil other than the 36 " ones at grocery stores...>>>

Bob, you can Google for " dennyfoil " , that's industrial strength aluminum

sold by the roll which is I'm sure what Dr. Rae used on the walls.

FYI,here's one link:

http://www.foustco.com/catalog/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=10-2220

Rosie

[Guest guest]

One thing you'd want to careful of is taking any chances of combining aluminum

foil with lye contained in various cleaning solutions. That combination will

produce some new VOC's you definitely don't want to deal with.

Probably the worst mold infestation I ever saw prior to Katrina was an old lady

who had gotten the notion that the phone company was spying on her through her

microwave. So she sealed her windows with aluminum foil and unplugged everything

inside. Mold stalagtites everywhere, and I very specifically remember it

crawling up the inside of the aluminimum foil on the windows. Maybe aluminim can

form a decent barrier of sorts, but it sure doen't prevent mold growth, and can

definitely encourage it when used as a moisture barrier in the wrong place.

I know that the mold was a problem in the place before she lost her mind, so

the real source of her dementia is a question mark. Did the mold make her crazy

in the first place, or did it just make her worse? I don't suppose we'll ever

have an answer for that one. That was the first, but unfortunately not nearly

the last time I saw somebody inexplicably go to all sorts of extremes to stay in

a place they believed was harmful to them. I don't know why that happens. It's

just something I've observed again and again.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

[Guest guest]

healthier4all <Healthier4All@...> wrote:

Bob, you can Google for " dennyfoil " , that's industrial strength aluminum

sold by the roll which is I'm sure what Dr. Rae used on the walls.

FYI,here's one link:

http://www.foustco.com/catalog/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=10-2220

Rosie

Thanks Rosie. this stuff sounds like a miracle?? I know I saw it used in Dr

Rea's safe homes so I am just curious of why I haven't heard anyone here talk

about it before? Of course if I used it, I couldn't have anyone ever come in as

they already think I am crazy.

I am sure you have heard of this stuff so would you please post what you

think about using it? I remember someone posting that I use aluminum in my new

pickup but I knew the kind I have wouldn't last very long.

BTW, there are grass fires all around, as close as a a couple of miles. I

believe that said one time that certain mold spores were still stable at

500 degrees. How about when they are in a fire? I may not have to wonder what to

do about my place. Mother Nature may decide for me.

Bob

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

I *don't* think that Dr. Rea is 'using aluminum foll to stop mold from

getting into a room'. Or that he wears a tinfoil hat, although I am

sure that MANY would like to portray him in such a way.

I think that some people who go to his Texas clinic are sensitive to

EMF (radio, microwave and magnetic fields)

Some frequencies, like 2400 Mhz (WiFi, microwave ovens) are very

harmful to humans..and its fairly mainstream now.. Other frequencies

are more debatable as to their effects on human meat, but still very

measurable.. from an engineering standpoint.

The government is concerned about security, and so they have rooms

which are shielded from all RF - they call it Tempest shielding. One

could use aluminum foil for some of that, but my guess is that its not

expensive enough for government use..

[Guest guest]

Aluminum foil, dennyfoil and stainless steel foil have been used for

years by the chemically sensitive to block sources of chemical

outgassing. But the seams have to be sealed with a foil tape and some

of the adhesives are problems for some individuals. Also, the foil

has to be a continuous envelope sealing all corners, crevices,

penetrations or the molecules come through. And, yes, because it is a

moisture barrier and people exhale lots of water vapor, humidity and

temperature have to be controlled or it condenses and mold will grow

on the biofilm. As with all things, there are pluses and minuses that

have to be known and decided on.

An effective RF shield is called a Faraday cage and is usually a grid

with specific characteristics. Aluminum or steel foil, even lead,

doesn't do a very good job of blocking RF. The military uses a

special metal call mu metal (Greek letter mu) for Tempest shielding.

Google 'Faraday cage'' or 'Faraday shield' for more info.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Quack, I was hardly referring to Dr.Rea. I don't know the man any better than I

assume you do. The lady I mentioned was seriously demented. There's a big

difference between a suspicion that RF waves and other vibrations are harmful

and deciding that the phone company is spying on you through your appliances,

no? What I did observe, is that even though aluminimum might form a decent vapor

barrier, it definitely doesn't discourage mold growth. The condensate that would

have gathered on the glass gathered on the foil instead, and there were colonies

all over it.

As to the caution about using it with what Bob referred to as " chemicals " - if

those are cleansers or anything else that may contain lye, the risk is that the

container breaks and puts the contents in contact with the aluminum. I've sat

and watched a pot of lye soap outgas for hours when it was in contact with

aluminum foil. That was the first time I'd ever seen anything like that. I left

it outdoors and watched it from inside. The gas was visible, and hissing the

whole time, until the foil had completely disinitgrated. I don't recall the name

of the gas it forms, but it's a bad one. Which, now that I think of it, probably

explains why cleaning fluids are hardly ever packaged in aluminum.

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

I *don't* think that Dr. Rea is 'using aluminum foll to stop mold from

getting into a room'. Or that he wears a tinfoil hat, although I am

sure that MANY would like to portray him in such a way.

I think that some people who go to his Texas clinic are sensitive to

EMF (radio, microwave and magnetic fields)

Some frequencies, like 2400 Mhz (WiFi, microwave ovens) are very

harmful to humans..and its fairly mainstream now.. Other frequencies

are more debatable as to their effects on human meat, but still very

measurable.. from an engineering standpoint.

The government is concerned about security, and so they have rooms

which are shielded from all RF - they call it Tempest shielding. One

could use aluminum foil for some of that, but my guess is that its not

expensive enough for government use..

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

They're only doing all that because they don't know about my basement! Cell

phones and RF-based home automation equipment, as well as most other electronics

will die right there. Regular radio reception? Fuggedaboudit. It's like a dead

zone. If I ever get the idea that the mothership is messing with me, I'll just

go hide out down there. I won't even need a tinfoil hat : )

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: Aluminum foil, dennyfoil and

stainless steel foil have been used for

years by the chemically sensitive to block sources of chemical

outgassing. But the seams have to be sealed with a foil tape and some

of the adhesives are problems for some individuals. Also, the foil

has to be a continuous envelope sealing all corners, crevices,

penetrations or the molecules come through. And, yes, because it is a

moisture barrier and people exhale lots of water vapor, humidity and

temperature have to be controlled or it condenses and mold will grow

on the biofilm. As with all things, there are pluses and minuses that

have to be known and decided on.

An effective RF shield is called a Faraday cage and is usually a grid

with specific characteristics. Aluminum or steel foil, even lead,

doesn't do a very good job of blocking RF. The military uses a

special metal call mu metal (Greek letter mu) for Tempest shielding.

Google 'Faraday cage'' or 'Faraday shield' for more info.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

....>>> Thanks Rosie. this stuff sounds like a miracle?? I know I saw it

used in Dr Rea's safe homes so I am just curious of why I haven't heard

anyone here talk about it before? Of course if I used it, I couldn't have

anyone ever come in as they already think I am crazy.

I am sure you have heard of this stuff so would you please post what

you think about using it? I remember someone posting that I use aluminum in

my new pickup but I knew the kind I have wouldn't last very long.

BTW, there are grass fires all around, as close as a a couple of miles. I

believe that said one time that certain mold spores were still stable

at 500 degrees. How about when they are in a fire? I may not have to wonder

what to do about my place. Mother Nature may decide for me.Bob>>>>>

Good morning Bob. First, I'm not recommending dennyfoil to cover mold; only

provided you with name and link for your information since you asked. I

honestly wouldn't use dennyfoil or similar product to try to cover a mold

problem in my home; I'd figure out a way to remove the mold and find out why

I had mold in the first place. The aluminum foil isn't going to kill or

remove the mold and it will continue to grow behind the foil and as Carl

informed us because it's a moisture barrier mold will grow on its biofilm.

I seriously doubt that Dr. Rae's safe homes have mold and the reason for the

foil is to cover the mold. Never having visited Dr. Rae or his homes I

can't be positive. Best assumption would be the " safe " homes were

additionally modified with the foil to block VOC, etc in the walls. But

again this is only a guess.

Aluminum foil-dennyfoil, etc have long been used by those with multiple

chemical sensitivity to block odors. Some MCSers will use mylar blankets

(very inexpensive) for same purpose covering their mattresses or whatever

they think is causing them a reaction.

Again, from all we know we can't cover up a mold problem.

Rosie

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

Serena, I'll tell you why people do it. Because the powerful use any

'change' as an excuse to rip off poor people, and poor people have an

instinct as to this. For many poor people, staying in a home they own

or can afford is far preferable to living outdoors.. perhaps on a Skid

Row, where people's lifespans are often measured in months or at the

most, a few years.

This country is changing. For every mold sufferer who like us, has a

computer and the motivation to try to figure out what is going on,

there are literally hundreds, perhaps even thousands who just suffer

in silence and often, end up dying or going mad in their own private

hell.

That is what toxics do. And thats why this fight is so important.

Normal rules about legal torts really fall flat when you have a

NATIONAL MENACE like mold and a well funded, ORGANIZED disinformation

campaign that is aggressively trying to make sure that NO JUSTICE IS

EVER DONE in this murderous situation.

Stealing peoples health and their future is VERY VERY WRONG..

Doing it for money should be punished by serious jail time.. if you ask me..

[Guest guest]

Quack, I assume you were responding to this - " That was the first, but

unfortunately not nearly the last time I saw somebody inexplicably go to all

sorts of extremes to stay in a place they believed was harmful to them. I don't

know why that happens. It's just something I've observed again and again. "

Listen to yourself, Quack. I'm talking about something I have observed mold

victims to do repeatedly on an individual basis. I'm not the only one who's

noticed it. It's common as aspergillus. But see, you've got it all turned into

this huge-ass conspiracy by rich people to somehow MAKE moldies do that.You

actually went all Oliver Stone about it. It's not that there isn't a whole lot

of ugly influence-peddling and voter-diddling going on. That's fact. There's

absolutely no question of it. But THAT does not make anyone stay in a moldy

place, even when they know it's harming them. It's almost like a form of

paralysis or something. I can't explain it fully at this point. I'm only saying

that I've observed it, and it's not a good thing.

Some component of this illness causes people to make choices counter to their

own survival. I don't think people do it because they are stupid, because I've

observed otherwise extremely bright people do it. I don't think it's just the

financial problems, because even people with money do it. And I don't want to

psychologize it, because that's almost always nothing more than a cheesy way to

explain away that which we're too lazy to try to understand objectively.

Mycotoxicosis often BEHAVES like an addiction. (An accepted definition of

addiction is the continued use of a substance despite all negative consequences

and effects.) So, it's kind of like that. But I think that possibly, rather than

being an actual addiction, it's just a similar component - like a drunk who

pukes but keeps drinking because the toxic effects themselves have interfered

with his ability to feel the discomfort and sense that he's already been

poisoned to the point of damaging himself. (Like Moldies, some alcoholics are

that way because of a genetic defect in their metabolism. They actually can't

tell when they've had too much, and the euphoria keeps them coming back for

more. Ipso facto, they will most definitely act counter to their own survival

instincts.) I think that mycotoxins may very well do something similar.

Mycotoxins are a different class of neurotoxins from ethanol, but neurotoxic

effects are neurotoxic effects - so there may be some definite similarities

there.

And this idea fits in very closely with some things we had discussed here in

the past - the idea that once you DO detox sufficiently, your ability to spot

contaminated places and items becomes very, very acute. Same comparison - a

drunk can't sober up while he's still drunk. He has to get the stuff out of his

system first, and THEN he may decide to keep it out for good. He can't smell

beer on your breath, but I'll guarantee you someone who never drinks can! I

almost hate this comparison, because sooner or later, some one is going to

decide that I am implying the same sort of bad judgement, irresponsible

behavior, and social stigma that is attached to alcoholism (rightly or

wrongly). But I'm not. Not at all! I'm just comparing the effects of certain

toxins on otherwise bright and same people's behavior. Nobody MAKES it do that.

Nobody MAKES us stay when we should go. Nobody's got a gun to our heads. But we

often think it's maybe an ok idea when it's really not.

Ummm....search the forum on " fungdar " . I think that's partly what we were

talking about at the time. The connection between survival mechanisms and

mycotoxins. There were a lot of interesting observations and arguments made at

the time, IIRC.

I don't think we know nearly everything there is to know about that, but we

had some pretty good ideas about it. This is just an extension of that idea

that I've been pondering for some time now.

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

Serena, I'll tell you why people do it. Because the powerful use any

'change' as an excuse to rip off poor people, and poor people have an

instinct as to this. For many poor people, staying in a home they own

or can afford is far preferable to living outdoors.. perhaps on a Skid

Row, where people's lifespans are often measured in months or at the

most, a few years.

This country is changing. For every mold sufferer who like us, has a

computer and the motivation to try to figure out what is going on,

there are literally hundreds, perhaps even thousands who just suffer

in silence and often, end up dying or going mad in their own private

hell.

That is what toxics do. And thats why this fight is so important.

Normal rules about legal torts really fall flat when you have a

NATIONAL MENACE like mold and a well funded, ORGANIZED disinformation

campaign that is aggressively trying to make sure that NO JUSTICE IS

EVER DONE in this murderous situation.

Stealing peoples health and their future is VERY VERY WRONG..

Doing it for money should be punished by serious jail time.. if you ask me..

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

Hi Serena, *Yes* I was responding to that.. read down for my answer..

On 1/6/06, SERENA EDWARDS <pushcrash@...> wrote:

> Quack, I assume you were responding to this - " That was the first, but

unfortunately not nearly the last time I saw somebody inexplicably go to all

sorts of extremes to stay in a place they believed was harmful to them. I don't

know why that happens. It's just something I've observed again and again. "

>

I have too.. Even in myself.. And there are some very good reasons for

it which I think are a bit unpleasant to think about for most middle

class people. I'm sticking by that position.

Read on..

> Listen to yourself, Quack. I'm talking about something I have observed mold

victims to do repeatedly on an individual basis. I'm not the only one who's

noticed it. It's common as aspergillus. But see, you've got it all turned into

this huge-ass conspiracy by rich people to somehow MAKE moldies do that.

No, I didn't say that at all. But it DOES end up in poor people being

homeless and rich people getting those ugly unprofitable poor people

out of their homes, after which, they are often torn down *or

remediated*..

>You actually went all Oliver Stone about it.

How? I'm just stating that mold victims often end up (first) homeless

and then (a bit later) dead.

Yes, the things are connected. Because there is practically no

low-cost housing available in many areas. When someone voluntarily

leaves a living space, it goes to the highest bidder.

Also, the mold is not what killed them under our tort system. Even if

it drives them away. The thing that kills them is not being able to

pay the cost of housing in the market, 'what the market will bear'.

Or perhaps they don't have good credit. So they can't rent. Even if it

was no problem ten years ago, when they had a job, and society wasn't

as cruel.

So, THAT is the weakest link in a weak chain breaking. When forced out

of the place they CAN afford, they find they CANNOT afford anything

else that they can live with. Then, some little thing happens, say,

they get robbed while sitting on the side of the road with all their

belongings, and well.. Maybe they were a vet, or they worked 70 out of

their 85 years and have never been on welfare or even food stamps,

ever. BUT.

>It's not that there isn't a whole lot of ugly influence-peddling and

voter-diddling going on.

I didn't say anything about anything like that, I don't think..

>That's fact. There's absolutely no question of it. But THAT does not

make anyone stay in a moldy place, even when they know it's harming

them. It's almost like a form of paralysis or something. I can't

explain it fully at this point. I'm only saying that I've observed it,

and it's not a good thing.

>

What is a viable alternative when there isn't any other place they can

afford to go?

> Some component of this illness causes people to make choices counter to

their own survival.

I don't think that that is really what is happening here. People are

just scared to throw themself off the cliff of 'what they know' into

the great abyss of 'what they don't know' at such a cruel and

heartless time in our nation's history.

>I don't think people do it because they are stupid, because I've

observed otherwise extremely bright people do it. I don't think it's

just the financial problems, because even people with money do it.

Serena, have you ever thought about how often, people in our society

who look like they 'have money' don't actually.

For example, middle class people in the US *HAVE* to maintain a

certain level of appearance, lifestyle, etc. or they stop being middle

class.

In that respect, immigrants have a lot more flexibility and they make

use of it. That flexibility is worth a lot when you are trying to save

some money to say, purchase your first home.

As an alternative, middle class Americans get credit and more credit.

But now they have their equity sunk into 'their home' and suddenly,

they realize that its worth practically nothing and there is NOTHING

THEY CAN DO, because of some legal loophole.

Thats not unlike being shot with a gun, because it traps them, and

when someone is 50 or 60, there aint NO WAY that they are going to get

a second chance at a life... A few years ago, some smug types would

have said, 'you should have gotten insurance' but now, insurance

doesn't cover mold.. SO THEY ARE f...

In my case, I have been drained of a lot of my energy for the last

nine years of my life.. lost a relationship, a good job, been made

very ill at least twice, which sent me to the hospital once..

(Luckily I didn't lose a home, because I didn't own one.. But I rent,

and I can afford my rental.. but the mold is making my life hell.. If

I move out, I could maybe afford a STUDIO.. maybe.. )

>And I don't want to psychologize it, because that's almost always

nothing more than a cheesy way to explain away that which we're too

lazy to try to understand objectively.

>

Just curious.. do you have a college degree?

> Mycotoxicosis often BEHAVES like an addiction. (An accepted definition of

addiction is the continued use of a substance despite all negative consequences

and effects.)

Are we 'addicted' to housing? Are we 'addicted' to having a bed and a

roof over a heads, of having our belongings in a place we can control

them, even as we sleep? Are we addicted to the 'drug' of having an

address where we can receive mail? Have a phone? Vote?

(rest of Serena's discussion of staying in moldy homes as an addiction omitted)

>

> LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

> Serena, I'll tell you why people do it. Because the powerful use any

> 'change' as an excuse to rip off poor people, and poor people have an

> instinct as to this. For many poor people, staying in a home they own

> or can afford is far preferable to living outdoors.. perhaps on a Skid

> Row, where people's lifespans are often measured in months or at the

> most, a few years.

>

> This country is changing. For every mold sufferer who like us, has a

> computer and the motivation to try to figure out what is going on,

> there are literally hundreds, perhaps even thousands who just suffer

> in silence and often, end up dying or going mad in their own private

> hell.

>

> That is what toxics do. And thats why this fight is so important.

> Normal rules about legal torts really fall flat when you have a

> NATIONAL MENACE like mold and a well funded, ORGANIZED disinformation

> campaign that is aggressively trying to make sure that NO JUSTICE IS

> EVER DONE in this murderous situation.

>

> Stealing peoples health and their future is VERY VERY WRONG..

>

> Doing it for money should be punished by serious jail time.. if you ask me..

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Meh. You're just talking like someone who'd sick and tired and worried. And I'm

really sorry that's happening to you, but I'm not going to bother responding to

most. There's being a victim, and then there's investing oneself in

victimhood. One is unfortunate. The second will prevent you from surviving the

first.

[heavily edited for brevity]

In that respect, immigrants have a lot more flexibility and they make

use of it. That flexibility is worth a lot when you are trying to save

some money to say, purchase your first home.

Somebody stop me before I start hurling some serious invective here....

Just what is this " flexibility " immigrants have which you don't possess?

Just curious.. do you have a college degree?

Yes. Why do you ask?

(rest of Serena's discussion of staying in moldy homes as an addiction

omitted)

I think you totally missed my point. I was comparing the poor judgement and

failure to operate a modicum of survival skills to certain facets of addictive

behavior. The commonality isn't addiction. It's the inability to distinguish a

threat to one's survival and to act accordingly because a toxin is acting on

one's body and altering one's ability to sense and reason.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover

Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!

[Guest guest]

Yes Serena ,I really back you up on this one. I remember an episode

of x-files that made me think the writter must have had an

experience with a moldy home. Fox and Scully are burried in a mold

colony, and it is effecting their brains, putting them into a dream

state, so they think they are in real life, but actually they are

being consumed by the mold. Fox finally notices some strange

inconsistancies and with all his strength reaches out his hand,

bursting through the earth, where a search party sees him and they

are rescued and taken to a hospital, and pumped full of anti-

fungals. I think its a great analogy . I still find it hard to

believe how effected my brain was. I told a friend yesterday that I

was going to attempt to videotape a program. I had not been able to

do it last year. Hey- pop in tape- press record- amazing - this time

last year I could not perform that simple operation. It is hard to

convince people that they may not be making the right choices

because of a nuero-toxin.

>

> Quack, I assume you were responding to this - " That was the

first, but unfortunately not nearly the last time I saw somebody

inexplicably go to all sorts of extremes to stay in a place they

believed was harmful to them. I don't know why that happens. It's

just something I've observed again and again. "

>

> Listen to yourself, Quack. I'm talking about something I have

observed mold victims to do repeatedly on an individual basis. I'm

not the only one who's noticed it. It's common as aspergillus. But

see, you've got it all turned into this huge-ass conspiracy by rich

people to somehow MAKE moldies do that.You actually went all Oliver

Stone about it. It's not that there isn't a whole lot of ugly

influence-peddling and voter-diddling going on. That's fact. There's

absolutely no question of it. But THAT does not make anyone stay in

a moldy place, even when they know it's harming them. It's almost

like a form of paralysis or something. I can't explain it fully at

this point. I'm only saying that I've observed it, and it's not a

good thing.

>

> Some component of this illness causes people to make choices

counter to their own survival. I don't think people do it because

they are stupid, because I've observed otherwise extremely bright

people do it. I don't think it's just the financial problems,

because even people with money do it. And I don't want to

psychologize it, because that's almost always nothing more than a

cheesy way to explain away that which we're too lazy to try to

understand objectively.

>

> Mycotoxicosis often BEHAVES like an addiction. (An accepted

definition of addiction is the continued use of a substance despite

all negative consequences and effects.) So, it's kind of like that.

But I think that possibly, rather than being an actual addiction,

it's just a similar component - like a drunk who pukes but keeps

drinking because the toxic effects themselves have interfered with

his ability to feel the discomfort and sense that he's already been

poisoned to the point of damaging himself. (Like Moldies, some

alcoholics are that way because of a genetic defect in their

metabolism. They actually can't tell when they've had too much, and

the euphoria keeps them coming back for more. Ipso facto, they will

most definitely act counter to their own survival instincts.) I

think that mycotoxins may very well do something similar. Mycotoxins

are a different class of neurotoxins from ethanol, but neurotoxic

effects are neurotoxic effects - so there may be some definite

similarities

> there.

>

> And this idea fits in very closely with some things we had

discussed here in the past - the idea that once you DO detox

sufficiently, your ability to spot contaminated places and items

becomes very, very acute. Same comparison - a drunk can't sober up

while he's still drunk. He has to get the stuff out of his system

first, and THEN he may decide to keep it out for good. He can't

smell beer on your breath, but I'll guarantee you someone who never

drinks can! I almost hate this comparison, because sooner or later,

some one is going to decide that I am implying the same sort of bad

judgement, irresponsible behavior, and social stigma that is

attached to alcoholism (rightly or wrongly). But I'm not. Not at

all! I'm just comparing the effects of certain toxins on otherwise

bright and same people's behavior. Nobody MAKES it do that. Nobody

MAKES us stay when we should go. Nobody's got a gun to our heads.

But we often think it's maybe an ok idea when it's really not.

>

> Ummm....search the forum on " fungdar " . I think that's partly

what we were talking about at the time. The connection between

survival mechanisms and mycotoxins. There were a lot of interesting

observations and arguments made at the time, IIRC.

> I don't think we know nearly everything there is to know about

that, but we had some pretty good ideas about it. This is just an

extension of that idea that I've been pondering for some time now.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think this discussion has gotten out of control- talking about

some hoards of people who have nowhere to live- lets take it one

case at a time- and there have been many offers of ideas of

alternative housing for Quack on this board - she continues to see

it as a political issue- rather than what we see - a nuero-toxic

issue- lets stop talking in general about other people- Quack- I

think you are getting off the topic- your own responsibility for

your own health

---

In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@g...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Serena, *Yes* I was responding to that.. read down for my

answer..

>

> On 1/6/06, SERENA EDWARDS <pushcrash@y...> wrote:

> > Quack, I assume you were responding to this - " That was the

first, but unfortunately not nearly the last time I saw somebody

inexplicably go to all sorts of extremes to stay in a place they

believed was harmful to them. I don't know why that happens. It's

just something I've observed again and again. "

> >

> I have too.. Even in myself.. And there are some very good reasons

for

> it which I think are a bit unpleasant to think about for most

middle

> class people. I'm sticking by that position.

> Read on..

>

> > Listen to yourself, Quack. I'm talking about something I have

observed mold victims to do repeatedly on an individual basis. I'm

not the only one who's noticed it. It's common as aspergillus. But

see, you've got it all turned into this huge-ass conspiracy by rich

people to somehow MAKE moldies do that.

>

> No, I didn't say that at all. But it DOES end up in poor people

being

> homeless and rich people getting those ugly unprofitable poor

people

> out of their homes, after which, they are often torn down *or

> remediated*..

>

>

> >You actually went all Oliver Stone about it.

>

> How? I'm just stating that mold victims often end up (first)

homeless

> and then (a bit later) dead.

>

> Yes, the things are connected. Because there is practically no

> low-cost housing available in many areas. When someone voluntarily

> leaves a living space, it goes to the highest bidder.

>

> Also, the mold is not what killed them under our tort system. Even

if

> it drives them away. The thing that kills them is not being able to

> pay the cost of housing in the market, 'what the market will bear'.

>

> Or perhaps they don't have good credit. So they can't rent. Even

if it

> was no problem ten years ago, when they had a job, and society

wasn't

> as cruel.

>

> So, THAT is the weakest link in a weak chain breaking. When forced

out

> of the place they CAN afford, they find they CANNOT afford anything

> else that they can live with. Then, some little thing happens, say,

> they get robbed while sitting on the side of the road with all

their

> belongings, and well.. Maybe they were a vet, or they worked 70

out of

> their 85 years and have never been on welfare or even food stamps,

> ever. BUT.

>

> >It's not that there isn't a whole lot of ugly influence-peddling

and

> voter-diddling going on.

>

> I didn't say anything about anything like that, I don't think..

>

> >That's fact. There's absolutely no question of it. But THAT does

not

> make anyone stay in a moldy place, even when they know it's harming

> them. It's almost like a form of paralysis or something. I can't

> explain it fully at this point. I'm only saying that I've observed

it,

> and it's not a good thing.

> >

>

> What is a viable alternative when there isn't any other place they

can

> afford to go?

>

> > Some component of this illness causes people to make choices

counter to their own survival.

>

> I don't think that that is really what is happening here. People

are

> just scared to throw themself off the cliff of 'what they know'

into

> the great abyss of 'what they don't know' at such a cruel and

> heartless time in our nation's history.

>

> >I don't think people do it because they are stupid, because I've

> observed otherwise extremely bright people do it. I don't think

it's

> just the financial problems, because even people with money do it.

>

> Serena, have you ever thought about how often, people in our

society

> who look like they 'have money' don't actually.

>

> For example, middle class people in the US *HAVE* to maintain a

> certain level of appearance, lifestyle, etc. or they stop being

middle

> class.

>

> In that respect, immigrants have a lot more flexibility and they

make

> use of it. That flexibility is worth a lot when you are trying to

save

> some money to say, purchase your first home.

>

> As an alternative, middle class Americans get credit and more

credit.

> But now they have their equity sunk into 'their home' and suddenly,

> they realize that its worth practically nothing and there is

NOTHING

> THEY CAN DO, because of some legal loophole.

>

> Thats not unlike being shot with a gun, because it traps them, and

> when someone is 50 or 60, there aint NO WAY that they are going to

get

> a second chance at a life... A few years ago, some smug types would

> have said, 'you should have gotten insurance' but now, insurance

> doesn't cover mold.. SO THEY ARE f...

>

> In my case, I have been drained of a lot of my energy for the last

> nine years of my life.. lost a relationship, a good job, been made

> very ill at least twice, which sent me to the hospital once..

>

> (Luckily I didn't lose a home, because I didn't own one.. But I

rent,

> and I can afford my rental.. but the mold is making my life hell..

If

> I move out, I could maybe afford a STUDIO.. maybe.. )

>

> >And I don't want to psychologize it, because that's almost always

> nothing more than a cheesy way to explain away that which we're too

> lazy to try to understand objectively.

> >

>

> Just curious.. do you have a college degree?

>

> > Mycotoxicosis often BEHAVES like an addiction. (An accepted

definition of addiction is the continued use of a substance despite

all negative consequences and effects.)

>

> Are we 'addicted' to housing? Are we 'addicted' to having a bed

and a

> roof over a heads, of having our belongings in a place we can

control

> them, even as we sleep? Are we addicted to the 'drug' of having an

> address where we can receive mail? Have a phone? Vote?

>

> (rest of Serena's discussion of staying in moldy homes as an

addiction omitted)

> >

> > LiveSimply <quackadillian@g...> wrote:

> > Serena, I'll tell you why people do it. Because the powerful

use any

> > 'change' as an excuse to rip off poor people, and poor people

have an

> > instinct as to this. For many poor people, staying in a home

they own

> > or can afford is far preferable to living outdoors.. perhaps on

a Skid

> > Row, where people's lifespans are often measured in months or at

the

> > most, a few years.

> >

> > This country is changing. For every mold sufferer who like us,

has a

> > computer and the motivation to try to figure out what is going

on,

> > there are literally hundreds, perhaps even thousands who just

suffer

> > in silence and often, end up dying or going mad in their own

private

> > hell.

> >

> > That is what toxics do. And thats why this fight is so important.

> > Normal rules about legal torts really fall flat when you have a

> > NATIONAL MENACE like mold and a well funded, ORGANIZED

disinformation

> > campaign that is aggressively trying to make sure that NO

JUSTICE IS

> > EVER DONE in this murderous situation.

> >

> > Stealing peoples health and their future is VERY VERY WRONG..

> >

> > Doing it for money should be punished by serious jail time.. if

you ask me..

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > FAIR USE NOTICE:

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I've never seen that show, but it sounds...moldy : ). Yeah - it's something

that goes beyond the usual " cognitive problems " and " memory problems " . I made

some bad decisions when it was worst, too. (I feel ya. I couldn't have operated

a VCR to save my life. Might not try it today, either.) It's like your brain is

in a fog all right, but on a planet where they have molasses instead of water.

That was all way beyond just not remembering stuff. It was also very, difficult

to prioritize and remember what was important. Still is. I have to really

concentrate hard, make lists, and get feedback from others to make sure I'm on

track. The feedback part is really hard. I've been independent all my life, and

a responsible person for most of it. To admit that I can't do it all? To allow

someone else to tell me what to do? Man! That's a comedown and a half. I got

kicked right square in the ego.

Getting out of the mold and detoxing long enough to be able to distinguish it

now has been a huge help. It doesn't make the fog go away forever or anything.

That comes and goes, new mold hits or no. But it's a great improvement. Went out

last night, intending to move around a little and work the kinks out. Didn't

work. I started sweating and feeling weak. So I moved into a different room.

There was mold present, coming through an open door. Took a minute to scope out

the air flow patterns and see there was no way to move to a different section of

the building and avoid it, so I took off quickly, rolled the windows down at

under 40 degrees and over 70 MPH, and escaped with only a headache and increased

fatigue.

I couldn't have done that a year ago. I know, because I tried it, in the very

same building. (That building is not always a problem. It only happens when the

back door is left open. I know of a couple other buildings in that section of

town that are similar.) Last year, I got hit, but couldn't recognize it as a hit

I couldn't have said where it came from, exactly. I got so weak and so dizzy,

lost coordination so fast, and my brain stopped functioning so quickly that I

sat down and stayed there instead of leaving immediately. I do remember I was

just sitting there, wondering if I should ask somebody to call 911 because I

wasn't feeling very definitely not right. But it seemed too hard, and then I

forgot or something. I don't even know how I got home. I simply lost my ability

to make a sound judgement and operate accordingly.

That was a real learning experience for me, both then and now. It's amazing

how much more exact I can be now, how much better I can judge the situation,

know my priorities (which is basically to get the heck out of there right away),

and act on them timely when I stay clear and operate with the awareness that

gives me. Me operating " under the influence " and me operating _not_ under the

influence are two entirely different things. If it was something in a glass or a

pill or a pipe, it would be easy to " just say no " if I didn't want it. So this

pretty much sucks. The stuff is airborn, floating around wherever, and so I have

to do all kinds of jumping and jiving to stay off the mold " sauce " . It's a

hassle, and I only do it because I must and because now I know the difference.

carondeen <kdeanstudios@...> wrote:

Yes Serena ,I really back you up on this one. I remember an episode

of x-files that made me think the writter must have had an

experience with a moldy home. Fox and Scully are burried in a mold

colony, and it is effecting their brains, putting them into a dream

state, so they think they are in real life, but actually they are

being consumed by the mold. Fox finally notices some strange

inconsistancies and with all his strength reaches out his hand,

bursting through the earth, where a search party sees him and they

are rescued and taken to a hospital, and pumped full of anti-

fungals. I think its a great analogy . I still find it hard to

believe how effected my brain was. I told a friend yesterday that I

was going to attempt to videotape a program. I had not been able to

do it last year. Hey- pop in tape- press record- amazing - this time

last year I could not perform that simple operation. It is hard to

convince people that they may not be making the right choices

because of a nuero-toxin.

>

> Quack, I assume you were responding to this - " That was the

first, but unfortunately not nearly the last time I saw somebody

inexplicably go to all sorts of extremes to stay in a place they

believed was harmful to them. I don't know why that happens. It's

just something I've observed again and again. "

>

> Listen to yourself, Quack. I'm talking about something I have

observed mold victims to do repeatedly on an individual basis. I'm

not the only one who's noticed it. It's common as aspergillus. But

see, you've got it all turned into this huge-ass conspiracy by rich

people to somehow MAKE moldies do that.You actually went all Oliver

Stone about it. It's not that there isn't a whole lot of ugly

influence-peddling and voter-diddling going on. That's fact. There's

absolutely no question of it. But THAT does not make anyone stay in

a moldy place, even when they know it's harming them. It's almost

like a form of paralysis or something. I can't explain it fully at

this point. I'm only saying that I've observed it, and it's not a

good thing.

>

> Some component of this illness causes people to make choices

counter to their own survival. I don't think people do it because

they are stupid, because I've observed otherwise extremely bright

people do it. I don't think it's just the financial problems,

because even people with money do it. And I don't want to

psychologize it, because that's almost always nothing more than a

cheesy way to explain away that which we're too lazy to try to

understand objectively.

>

> Mycotoxicosis often BEHAVES like an addiction. (An accepted

definition of addiction is the continued use of a substance despite

all negative consequences and effects.) So, it's kind of like that.

But I think that possibly, rather than being an actual addiction,

it's just a similar component - like a drunk who pukes but keeps

drinking because the toxic effects themselves have interfered with

his ability to feel the discomfort and sense that he's already been

poisoned to the point of damaging himself. (Like Moldies, some

alcoholics are that way because of a genetic defect in their

metabolism. They actually can't tell when they've had too much, and

the euphoria keeps them coming back for more. Ipso facto, they will

most definitely act counter to their own survival instincts.) I

think that mycotoxins may very well do something similar. Mycotoxins

are a different class of neurotoxins from ethanol, but neurotoxic

effects are neurotoxic effects - so there may be some definite

similarities

> there.

>

> And this idea fits in very closely with some things we had

discussed here in the past - the idea that once you DO detox

sufficiently, your ability to spot contaminated places and items

becomes very, very acute. Same comparison - a drunk can't sober up

while he's still drunk. He has to get the stuff out of his system

first, and THEN he may decide to keep it out for good. He can't

smell beer on your breath, but I'll guarantee you someone who never

drinks can! I almost hate this comparison, because sooner or later,

some one is going to decide that I am implying the same sort of bad

judgement, irresponsible behavior, and social stigma that is

attached to alcoholism (rightly or wrongly). But I'm not. Not at

all! I'm just comparing the effects of certain toxins on otherwise

bright and same people's behavior. Nobody MAKES it do that. Nobody

MAKES us stay when we should go. Nobody's got a gun to our heads.

But we often think it's maybe an ok idea when it's really not.

>

> Ummm....search the forum on " fungdar " . I think that's partly

what we were talking about at the time. The connection between

survival mechanisms and mycotoxins. There were a lot of interesting

observations and arguments made at the time, IIRC.

> I don't think we know nearly everything there is to know about

that, but we had some pretty good ideas about it. This is just an

extension of that idea that I've been pondering for some time now.

>

>

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

I'm sticking to my guns.. Its not 'just me'. The issue is the EXTREME

shortage of affordable housing in this country, especially in areas

where there are jobs.

When people have to leave their homes, they have to get new homes.

This means they need regular employment, first and last months rent, a

credit check, and often, in our cases, they need to buy new clothes,

furniture, many if not most the necessities of life..

Look, in my home, there are huge shifts going on. Poor people are

being uprooted from their homes by the thousands and when they are

pushed out *there is nowhere for them to go*

'Low income' housing goes to households with an average income of

around 60k a year, and people with working class jobs can't afford

them.

To give you an example, I know someone who has just moved here to take

a job. She has a college degree in a technical field and is making

very good money for a recent graduate (over 3k a month) who is having

trouble finding a *studio* she can afford (under $1200 or so) - in a

safe neighborhood.

Now, you tell me how a person living on a fixed income can find a

place to live in that environment. Thats not political, its the facts

of life.

I live in a city. Leave the city, and you NEED a car. That is another

expense. Many older people can't afford one. They are in a bind. These

are the kinds of problems that end up killing people indirectly. Or

making their lives very difficult, because to get to a job, they need

to take two or three busses, each one possibly being late..

Introduce too many variables into a situation and things start falling

apart.. Even if the housing is theoretically available for some,

perhaps there are 100 apartments, but 3000 people wanting them and a

six month to five year waiting list..

Thats the kind of point I am making, and its not a poltical one.. its reality..

[Guest guest]

And that, as has been pointed out before, is a reality where YOU live - which is

one of the most expensive places in the country to live. I'm going to guess

you've been out there most or all of your adult life, or you'd have something

else to measure by. At the Marine bases in SoCal, families who live perfectly

well on a single military income anywhere else in the world (and very, very well

in some parts of the world) can qualify for food stamps. Spouses go out of the

home for secondary sources of income, because there is nowhere to live there

that is affordable to military personnel. I don't question that you're seeing is

what you're seeing. I question only that you seem to think you are living at the

center of the known universe and that everywhere else is like that. It's not.

You see? You choose to live in a specific place with all these hoards of very

specific problems. Now, if you're saying that you can't figure all that out

right now because of the illness, I hear ya. I sympathize. The illness had me

living in a garage with no heat. (While I was trying to attend classes at a very

late age, I should add, so forget the whole million dollars idea.) You're only

special because you're a human being. Your pity party isn't the greater, your

circumstance isn't the worse, your lack of higher education is neither an excuse

nor a reason. There are others much sicker than you, much poorer than you, and

far less heroic, just as there are those who have it a good deal better and try

a lot harder. In the end, you're just another moldie like the rest of us. Like

it says in the book, it raineth on the just and the unjust.

The question comes down to what YOU are willing to do to get yourself well.

Not everyone is going to make it out of this, even if they try real hard. That

makes me very, very sad. If you die because of this, I will shed more than a few

tears over it. And I will take it personally, because I know it could very well

have been me. But I won't be able to change it. I would change this whole ugly

scenario if I could, and I'm working as hard as I can for that, as are others.

But there is not a damned thing any of us can do, if you insist on clinging to

every possible excuse to feel sorry about it and yet do nothing to change your

circumstance or better your own personal odds of survival. Do you halfway

understand that you're talking about how you look, to people who don't know

where they'll get food? Do you get that you're complaining about a car or the

lack of it to people who are too sick to drive one if they owned it? Do you know

that some people here communicate from public libraries because they're too poor

to do it on their own computers from their own comfy little mold hell? I don't

think you really do, or you wouldn't be holding forth on how tough poor people

have it. And I don't know if that's because you're generally that insensitive

and bigoted, or if it's because your brain is full of poison and you can't think

straight. I'm betting it's just the poison.

What you had is gone. What you hoped to have in the future has moved very much

farther away from you, and you can't get there from here.

In short, you're screwed.

Now. WHAT are you going to do about that besides complain? Are you gonna live

or die? Thrive or fail? If you need somebody to do the numbers for you and

figure the finances, then fine. I'm sure somebody here would volunteer for duty.

I have people who help me with mine when I can't do numbers. If you need

suggestions for more survivable communities, you already got that. If you need a

list of good physicians, you already got that too. There is no special place for

us where it's all clean and the nice people feed us and take care of us. There

ought to be, but it doesn't exist.You're gonna have to scratch for that one, and

I'd suggest you don't even think about the Bay Area. You're way too scared to do

what poor people do there. You might have to ask a relative or friend for help.

Maybe you get well enough to have to flip some burgers in East Podunk to make

your way back to the big time later, but so what? You should live so long. I did

worse, lived worse, and made it back only to

get smacked down with this all over again. I may have lost the ability to ever

come back again. Do you want that? I don't think so. What caused it? Continued

exposure past a point I could probably recover from fully - and I'm not even in

a bad place now. That's the lasting effects, long PAST the time I got away from

the continual exposure. Pass that line, and you won't even be able to flip the

burgers. Tu sabe? I can throw a damned fine pity party my own self, and I do,

from time to time. It does not, however, contribute to my continued survival any

more than it will contribute to yours. There are people here who will verify

that I do not lie. I live it every single day, same as them.

It would nice to hear you bitching and whining about it all a year from now.

Like fingernails on a chalkboard, but I would actually dig it because it would

mean that you took your survival in hand and made it. Are you up for that, or

not? You make the call. Because, seriously. If you're not, just say it. There's

thousands more where you came from. Some of them are just little kids who have

zero choices. Blip on the big screen, dude. That's us. Don't get all

side-tracked with all this crappola about who did what to who and yada yada. I

know who did what, and that's not why I've survived long enough to give them a

run for their money. Get out of the mold, get as well as you can, or sit there

and croak yourself. That simple.

(NO frog jokes, you guys!)

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

I'm sticking to my guns.. Its not 'just me'. The issue is the EXTREME

shortage of affordable housing in this country, especially in areas

where there are jobs.

When people have to leave their homes, they have to get new homes.

This means they need regular employment, first and last months rent, a

credit check, and often, in our cases, they need to buy new clothes,

furniture, many if not most the necessities of life..

Look, in my home, there are huge shifts going on. Poor people are

being uprooted from their homes by the thousands and when they are

pushed out *there is nowhere for them to go*

'Low income' housing goes to households with an average income of

around 60k a year, and people with working class jobs can't afford

them.

To give you an example, I know someone who has just moved here to take

a job. She has a college degree in a technical field and is making

very good money for a recent graduate (over 3k a month) who is having

trouble finding a *studio* she can afford (under $1200 or so) - in a

safe neighborhood.

Now, you tell me how a person living on a fixed income can find a

place to live in that environment. Thats not political, its the facts

of life.

I live in a city. Leave the city, and you NEED a car. That is another

expense. Many older people can't afford one. They are in a bind. These

are the kinds of problems that end up killing people indirectly. Or

making their lives very difficult, because to get to a job, they need

to take two or three busses, each one possibly being late..

Introduce too many variables into a situation and things start falling

apart.. Even if the housing is theoretically available for some,

perhaps there are 100 apartments, but 3000 people wanting them and a

six month to five year waiting list..

Thats the kind of point I am making, and its not a poltical one.. its reality..

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

In essence, what you are saying is that its not my landlord's

responsibility to provide me with a safe place to live, so much as it

is my responsibility to move (away) to some place which I can afford

because of supply and demand. Even if there are no jobs there, and I

don't have any support network.

Many older people are moving to places like the Phililipines, Costa

Rica, Mexico, etc, because they are affordable.

I don't think you see it this way, Thank God, but I'm sure you are

aware that many would love to make that moving process mandatory for

poor people living in moldy homes? Move them to somewhere they can

afford. Even if it is overseas or (perhaps in the near future) another

planet. (Those air bills will kill you! Literally!) People HAVE NO

RIGHT to live anywhere, if they can't afford the rising cost of

living. Also, before anyone else is responsible for poisoning them,

its their responsibility - to move?

After all, it is 'their responsibility to stay healthy'.

What a perfect storm for those big housing developers.. they could

tear down whole neighborhoods and build expensive condos.. I can see

the dollar signs in their eyes now, Kind of like a national New

Orleans..

Homebuyers would be given the Riot Act. Caveat Emptor. Make sure to

only buy 'mold free certified homes' because once you buy, its yours,

nomatter what. And, if its torn down, you'll only get pennies on the

dollar, if that.

Bob had a suggestion about allowing favelas to be built, and I had a

suggestion a while ago about the various other kinds of housing that

could be built, like foam homes, to provide affordable housing (but I

don't think it will ever happen because it would distress too many

vested interests to have livable small homes available for $10,000)

Do the math.. salaries are falling for many people, the cost of living

is rising..

Bankruptcy isn't an option anymore.. perhaps people could sell their

organs, or their children?

(No, actually, I think their children would just be taken away and

sold by the state.. eventually)

[Guest guest]

Live,

I happen to agree with you but I am concerned that people are going

to think that you are addressing this post to me because my name is

on the subject title and I think you are addressing it to Serena, but

I could be wrong about that, but I didn't notice you using her name.

I am in enough trouble already. If this is not addressed to me,

please say so. Bob

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@g...>

wrote:

>

> In essence, what you are saying is that its not my landlord's

> responsibility to provide me with a safe place to live, so much as

it

> is my responsibility to move (away) to some place which I can afford

> because of supply and demand. Even if there are no jobs there, and I

> don't have any support network.

>

> Many older people are moving to places like the Phililipines, Costa

> Rica, Mexico, etc, because they are affordable.

>

> I don't think you see it this way, Thank God, but I'm sure you are

> aware that many would love to make that moving process mandatory for

> poor people living in moldy homes? Move them to somewhere they can

> afford. Even if it is overseas or (perhaps in the near future)

another

> planet. (Those air bills will kill you! Literally!) People HAVE NO

> RIGHT to live anywhere, if they can't afford the rising cost of

> living. Also, before anyone else is responsible for poisoning them,

> its their responsibility - to move?

>

> After all, it is 'their responsibility to stay healthy'.

>

> What a perfect storm for those big housing developers.. they could

> tear down whole neighborhoods and build expensive condos.. I can see

> the dollar signs in their eyes now, Kind of like a national New

> Orleans..

>

> Homebuyers would be given the Riot Act. Caveat Emptor. Make sure to

> only buy 'mold free certified homes' because once you buy, its

yours,

> nomatter what. And, if its torn down, you'll only get pennies on the

> dollar, if that.

>

> Bob had a suggestion about allowing favelas to be built, and I had a

> suggestion a while ago about the various other kinds of housing that

> could be built, like foam homes, to provide affordable housing (but

I

> don't think it will ever happen because it would distress too many

> vested interests to have livable small homes available for $10,000)

>

> Do the math.. salaries are falling for many people, the cost of

living

> is rising..

>

> Bankruptcy isn't an option anymore.. perhaps people could sell their

> organs, or their children?

>

> (No, actually, I think their children would just be taken away and

> sold by the state.. eventually)

>

[Guest guest]

Please. Either put up or shut up. Yes. Screw the landlord. You ARE responsible

for your own survival. Not me, not him, not anyone but you. If your local

network's so cool, then why are you still so sick and so broke and still in that

bad place? Why are you hanging out over here? Do you really think if you scream

loud enough somebody's gonna just swoop down and fix all this for you? Man, we

can only WISH it was that easy.

Do what you gotta do for you. Attorneys are just there to clean up after it's

all been said and done. They can sue on behalf of your estate, too. But that

doesn't do you much good right now.

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

In essence, what you are saying is that its not my landlord's

responsibility to provide me with a safe place to live, so much as it

is my responsibility to move (away) to some place which I can afford

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

[Guest guest]

Yes your first responsibility is to yourself and your own health.

You remind me of my lefty friends of 20 years ago, cant work for

better scools, no first have to violently overthrow the state- well

its your life buddy- and as I stated before , if your landlord

suddenly decided to renovate the whole place, you would not be able

to live through that without getting very sick or dying, and guess

what - if the place is that bad, and you are primed, you won't ever

be able to live there safely- or recover-no matter how much

renovation is done- haven't youy been reading any of these posts-

don't you know that????????? So your plan, as I understand it- is to

sacrifice your health, and that of your wife- to be a martyr to the

mold cause- to show the world how badly it treats people-well guess

what- the world is indifferent to you and your plight- and you are

the only one in control of your fate.

-- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@g...>

wrote:

>

> In essence, what you are saying is that its not my landlord's

> responsibility to provide me with a safe place to live, so much as

it

> is my responsibility to move (away) to some place which I can

afford

> because of supply and demand. Even if there are no jobs there, and

I

> don't have any support network.

>

> Many older people are moving to places like the Phililipines, Costa

> Rica, Mexico, etc, because they are affordable.

>

> I don't think you see it this way, Thank God, but I'm sure you are

> aware that many would love to make that moving process mandatory

for

> poor people living in moldy homes? Move them to somewhere they can

> afford. Even if it is overseas or (perhaps in the near future)

another

> planet. (Those air bills will kill you! Literally!) People HAVE NO

> RIGHT to live anywhere, if they can't afford the rising cost of

> living. Also, before anyone else is responsible for poisoning them,

> its their responsibility - to move?

>

> After all, it is 'their responsibility to stay healthy'.

>

> What a perfect storm for those big housing developers.. they could

> tear down whole neighborhoods and build expensive condos.. I can

see

> the dollar signs in their eyes now, Kind of like a national New

> Orleans..

>

> Homebuyers would be given the Riot Act. Caveat Emptor. Make sure to

> only buy 'mold free certified homes' because once you buy, its

yours,

> nomatter what. And, if its torn down, you'll only get pennies on

the

> dollar, if that.

>

> Bob had a suggestion about allowing favelas to be built, and I had

a

> suggestion a while ago about the various other kinds of housing

that

> could be built, like foam homes, to provide affordable housing

(but I

> don't think it will ever happen because it would distress too many

> vested interests to have livable small homes available for $10,000)

>

> Do the math.. salaries are falling for many people, the cost of

living

> is rising..

>

> Bankruptcy isn't an option anymore.. perhaps people could sell

their

> organs, or their children?

>

> (No, actually, I think their children would just be taken away and

> sold by the state.. eventually)

>