Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Do you know how it works with no filter? Do they have a website that explains it? Becky Air Cleaners > We've used Living Air for about 8 years since my > middle daughter had severe environmental allergies. > She really improved with it. __________________________________ Responsibility for the content of this message lies strictly with the original author, and is not necessarily endorsed by or the opinion of the Research Institute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 I know these are discussed alot here. A) AM I reading correctly that an Ion/Ozonater is totally out, because of chemicals and spreading mold/contamination? Would it have any temporary benefit, if run while I'm out of house? And what is the word on windows open or closed, while it's running? I have to turn off my expensive AllerAire units, becasue of no $$ to get all the filters replaced. So, I have put a request on a FreeCycle List for Air Cleaners till I figure out what to do. I need to run something here for dust, pollen and chemicals/smoke in the building. Which would be best kind(s) and worst kind(s) ( 1 million dollar question? Is there anyting all agree on on this?) THanks! Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 I think buying new air cleaners has to be more expensive than filters- there is no magic sir cleaner that is going to clean all of that out of the air- yes- a big no to ozone in the living enviroment- the hepa type is the best --- In , " kattemayo " <kattemayo@...> wrote: > > I know these are discussed alot here. > > A) > AM I reading correctly that an Ion/Ozonater is totally out, because of chemicals and spreading mold/contamination? > > Would it have any temporary benefit, if run while I'm out of house? > > And what is the word on windows open or closed, while it's running? > > I have to turn off my expensive > AllerAire units, becasue of no $$ to get all the filters replaced. > So, I have put a request > on a FreeCycle List for Air Cleaners till I figure out what to do. > I need to run something here for dust, pollen and chemicals/smoke in the building. > > > Which would be best kind(s) and worst kind(s) > ( 1 million dollar question? Is there anyting all agree on on this?) > > THanks! > > Katrina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 , Thanks for responses. FreeCycle is a list in many communities, where people request or give things away...for free. Katrina > > > > I know these are discussed alot here. > > > > A) > > AM I reading correctly that an Ion/Ozonater is totally out, > because of chemicals and spreading mold/contamination? > > > > Would it have any temporary benefit, if run while I'm out of > house? > > > > And what is the word on windows open or closed, while it's running? > > > > I have to turn off my expensive > > AllerAire units, becasue of no $$ to get all the filters replaced. > > So, I have put a request > > on a FreeCycle List for Air Cleaners till I figure out what to do. > > I need to run something here for dust, pollen and chemicals/smoke > in the building. > > > > > > Which would be best kind(s) and worst kind(s) > > ( 1 million dollar question? Is there anyting all agree on on > this?) > > > > THanks! > > > > Katrina > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Loni, You did express your doubts and ask, so congratulations! You also acknowledged that the ozone issue is a hot topic. And it is. It is true there are a lot of new people so I'll add a few more comments. That said, this whole ozone discussion is a repeat of a repeat of a repeat of a repeat. One of my favorite authors, Least Heat Moon, wrote a book called River Horse. He took a boat from the east coast to the west only on rivers. To make the point of how boring the long stretches of some placid rivers were he filled two pages with nothing but the words " river river river river. " He didn't even break the monotony with commas or an occasional " rock. " This recurring ozone discussion is beginning to read like those two pages of river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river. Except the noun changes as the market catches on to the deceit. Your criteria for the removal capabilities of dust is whether or not it removes enough dust see a reduction in dust. Simple, straight forward, common sense. Your evaluation of your HEPA is that it fails your test. Great! But why? The HEPA and any other filter that strains particles from the air only removes the particles that go through the HEPA. Particles at some distance from the HEPA won't ever go through it and won't be removed. Also, if the dust is disturbed from surfaces, HVAC, open windows, pets, etc, and comes in at the same rate that the HEPA removes then you won't see any difference. Think of a lake. If the water comes in as fast as it leaves it stays the same. If less, it dries up. If greater, it's called a flood. So if dust comes into a room too fast it's called " a lack of ozone. " Ooops! I got ahead of myself. If dust input is greater, it accumulates. Particles 101 and Air Filters 101. The CADR rating (Clean Air Delivery Rate) is based on all that plus more, such as most filters including HEPA aren't very good at big particles -- and visible dust is BIG!!!!!!! - a hundred times or more than what a HEPA is designed to remove. Because they never make it to the filter! They settle out first on surfaces and can be seen. The bigger they are the quicker they fall but the less they can be filtered. So what about a different technology. Liked OZONE!!! What does ozone have to do with particles? If anything, they affect molecules which are thousands of times smaller than HEPA filtered particles because they are thousands of times smaller than the particles. Picture a grain of sand moving a mountain. Also, notice I said different " technology " not different " name. " The " Radiant Catalytic Ionionization " (huh?) with or without " UV Light " (what's UV got to do with dust?) is a " technology " more commonly called " marketing. " It is no different than the ultimate air purifier I wrote about last week. All words. They get away with hype and lies because they promise what we want most but is impossible to have. They will make tons of money before the law can shut them down because the law has to follow the law (outside of DC that is). They have to receive a complaint, gather evidence, build a case, get a " consent decree " through the FTC, notice they violated the decree over the past 2-3 years and then file a DOJ case to be tried in 2-3 years with appeals for another 1-2 years. In the meantime, they sell their " technology " to another corporate structure and continue un-interrupted. Maybe having a dictator would be better. ;-) And they have not cleaned the air for you or me or anyone. Instead they have filled it with a pollutant that is an irritant, sometimes asthma trigger, lung deterioration and other harmful effects. It replaces one source of exposure with another. And we allow it because WE WANT TO BELIEVE! We NEED to believe! To keep hope alive. Isn't this obscene? Remember " Particles 101 " and " Air Filters 101 " and " Ozone 101. " If taught that in kindergarden than we would have learned all we needed to know. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) but > don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does anyone know > anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant Catalytic > Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 square feet. A > friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about it. > > Loni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 What is MDF shelving? > Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:42:03 -0000 From: carondeen > <kdeanstudios@...> Reply- To: > Subject: [] Re: Air Cleaners > > Wonder if it will help with MDF shelving- I just was flattened by > MDF shelving my contracter was trying to put in my house- Never > discussed it- had to have it all pulled and put in Wire shelving- > left it up in a studio closet that I will keep shut- maybe this will > help if I hang a couple in there? > >> >>> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 07:04:21 -0000 >>> From: kattemayo <kattemayo@...> >>> Reply- >>> >>> Subject: [] Air Cleaners >>> >>> I know these are discussed alot here. >>> >>> A) >>> AM I reading correctly that an Ion/Ozonater is totally out, > because of chemicals and spreading mold/contamination? >>> >>> Would it have any temporary benefit, if run while I'm out of > house? >>> >>> And what is the word on windows open or closed, while it's > running? >>> >>> I have to turn off my expensive >>> AllerAire units, becasue of no $$ to get all the filters > replaced. >>> So, I have put a request >>> on a FreeCycle List for Air Cleaners till I figure out what to > do. >>> I need to run something here for dust, pollen and > chemicals/smoke in the building. >>> >>> >>> Which would be best kind(s) and worst kind(s) >>> ( 1 million dollar question? Is there anyting all agree on on > this?) >>> >>> THanks! >>> >>> Katrina >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> FAIR USE NOTICE: >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Eco Quest is an ozone generator. > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:19:52 -0800 (PST) From: Loni Rosser > <loni326@...> Reply- To: > Subject: Re: [] Re: Air > Cleaners > > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) but > don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does anyone know > anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant Catalytic > Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 square feet. A > friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about it. > > Loni > > carondeen <kdeanstudios@...> wrote: > I think buying new air cleaners has to be more expensive than > filters- there is no magic sir cleaner that is going to clean all of > that out of the air- yes- a big no to ozone in the living enviroment- > the hepa type is the best > > >> >> I know these are discussed alot here. >> >> A) >> AM I reading correctly that an Ion/Ozonater is totally out, > because of chemicals and spreading mold/contamination? >> >> Would it have any temporary benefit, if run while I'm out of > house? >> >> And what is the word on windows open or closed, while it's running? >> >> I have to turn off my expensive >> AllerAire units, becasue of no $$ to get all the filters replaced. >> So, I have put a request >> on a FreeCycle List for Air Cleaners till I figure out what to do. >> I need to run something here for dust, pollen and chemicals/smoke > in the building. >> >> >> Which would be best kind(s) and worst kind(s) >> ( 1 million dollar question? Is there anyting all agree on on > this?) >> >> THanks! >> >> Katrina >> > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Carl, Thank you for your KIND explanation & I will keep if I need to refer at any time in the future. I will certainly never bring it up on this forum again. However, many things are discussed over & over & over, not just ozone. The RCI & UV Light is fancy marketing I guess. I wondered what the UV Light was all about. Now I know, " nothing " . My friend LOVES her Eco Quest so I had to look into it. So what you're saying that just because my airspace looks filthy, the HEPA should be taking some smaller stuff out. I just wonder how far it reaches, Of course marketing says 500 square feet or so. Hmm. Maybe 24 square feet. Seems like the fans should be stronger & suck all that air in & clean it. Wishful thinking. When the sun comes in I just want to hold my breath. Yuck! We do want to believe & it is obscene because we're desperate for some fresh non toxic air. So the search goes on. Soon, in Arizona, it will be 110 plus degress & the doors will be closed, the A/C will be on & no ventilation for 6 or 7 mos. I am dreading it. It gets confusing when your Naturopath recommends an ozonator (of course when your not in the house). Sounds like you're really just stuck with cruddy air for the most part. Thank you SO much for this explanation-I'm sure lots of us didn't know that about sizes of particles & molecules etc. I don't look at every post because I just don't have time-too many? So if you said this before, I apologize. Ok Carl, You actually took the time to type all those rivers. WoW! I hope you are a fast typer. Ha! Loni " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: Loni, You did express your doubts and ask, so congratulations! You also acknowledged that the ozone issue is a hot topic. And it is. It is true there are a lot of new people so I'll add a few more comments. That said, this whole ozone discussion is a repeat of a repeat of a repeat of a repeat. One of my favorite authors, Least Heat Moon, wrote a book called River Horse. He took a boat from the east coast to the west only on rivers. To make the point of how boring the long stretches of some placid rivers were he filled two pages with nothing but the words " river river river river. " He didn't even break the monotony with commas or an occasional " rock. " This recurring ozone discussion is beginning to read like those two pages of river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river river. Except the noun changes as the market catches on to the deceit. Your criteria for the removal capabilities of dust is whether or not it removes enough dust see a reduction in dust. Simple, straight forward, common sense. Your evaluation of your HEPA is that it fails your test. Great! But why? The HEPA and any other filter that strains particles from the air only removes the particles that go through the HEPA. Particles at some distance from the HEPA won't ever go through it and won't be removed. Also, if the dust is disturbed from surfaces, HVAC, open windows, pets, etc, and comes in at the same rate that the HEPA removes then you won't see any difference. Think of a lake. If the water comes in as fast as it leaves it stays the same. If less, it dries up. If greater, it's called a flood. So if dust comes into a room too fast it's called " a lack of ozone. " Ooops! I got ahead of myself. If dust input is greater, it accumulates. Particles 101 and Air Filters 101. The CADR rating (Clean Air Delivery Rate) is based on all that plus more, such as most filters including HEPA aren't very good at big particles -- and visible dust is BIG!!!!!!! - a hundred times or more than what a HEPA is designed to remove. Because they never make it to the filter! They settle out first on surfaces and can be seen. The bigger they are the quicker they fall but the less they can be filtered. So what about a different technology. Liked OZONE!!! What does ozone have to do with particles? If anything, they affect molecules which are thousands of times smaller than HEPA filtered particles because they are thousands of times smaller than the particles. Picture a grain of sand moving a mountain. Also, notice I said different " technology " not different " name. " The " Radiant Catalytic Ionionization " (huh?) with or without " UV Light " (what's UV got to do with dust?) is a " technology " more commonly called " marketing. " It is no different than the ultimate air purifier I wrote about last week. All words. They get away with hype and lies because they promise what we want most but is impossible to have. They will make tons of money before the law can shut them down because the law has to follow the law (outside of DC that is). They have to receive a complaint, gather evidence, build a case, get a " consent decree " through the FTC, notice they violated the decree over the past 2-3 years and then file a DOJ case to be tried in 2-3 years with appeals for another 1-2 years. In the meantime, they sell their " technology " to another corporate structure and continue un-interrupted. Maybe having a dictator would be better. ;-) And they have not cleaned the air for you or me or anyone. Instead they have filled it with a pollutant that is an irritant, sometimes asthma trigger, lung deterioration and other harmful effects. It replaces one source of exposure with another. And we allow it because WE WANT TO BELIEVE! We NEED to believe! To keep hope alive. Isn't this obscene? Remember " Particles 101 " and " Air Filters 101 " and " Ozone 101. " If taught that in kindergarden than we would have learned all we needed to know. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) but > don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does anyone know > anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant Catalytic > Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 square feet. A > friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about it. > > Loni FAIR USE NOTICE: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Loni, I certainly don't want to discourage anybody from asking whatever they need to ask, and you are right that there are other topics that are repetitive. But like KC said, figuring out ozone is easy compared to the other topics that are debateable. Ozone isn't. The HEPA " reaches " as far as the air movement from it " reaches. " However, the farther away the less often it gets circulated through. So the ratings for a particular sized room are really based on amount of air not that ALL air is filtered equally. Now, here's the math: The filters are rated by cubic feet per minute (CFM) and they recommend 4-8 air exchanges per hour. If you have a room that is 10x10 feet that's 100 square feet. A typical 8 foot ceiling makes 800 cubic feet for the room. If you want 10 air exchanges each hour, to make the math easier, that is 8000 cubic feet that needs filtering. So how many CFM is needed to get 8000 per hour? Divide 8000 by 60 minutes = 133 CFM. If you want only 6 per hour you need 6000 cubic feet per hour = 100 cubic feet per minute. 4 exchanges per hour needs only 67 CFM. Most of the HEPA filters now have accurate charts on the box so you don't have to carry a calculator with you. The reason they don't make the fans bigger or faster is they cost more and make more noise. For example, a 15 x 30 open area with 8 exchanges per hour needs 480 CFM. That's BIG and noisy like the ones that remediators use - just remember Rhonda's experience and how disorienting it can be. Isn't math fun? And you all thought it was boring and useless. Boring, yes. But powerful! Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- > Carl, > Thank you for your KIND explanation & I will keep if I need to refer > at any time in the future. I will certainly never bring it up on > this forum again. However, many things are discussed over & over & > over, not just ozone. The RCI & UV Light is fancy marketing I guess. > I wondered what the UV Light was all about. Now I know, " nothing " . > My friend LOVES her Eco Quest so I had to look into it. > > So what you're saying that just because my airspace looks filthy, > the HEPA should be taking some smaller stuff out. I just wonder how > far it reaches, Of course marketing says 500 square feet or so. Hmm. > Maybe 24 square feet. Seems like the fans should be stronger & suck > all that air in & clean it. Wishful thinking. When the sun comes in > I just want to hold my breath. Yuck! > > We do want to believe & it is obscene because we're desperate for > some fresh non toxic air. So the search goes on. > > Soon, in Arizona, it will be 110 plus degress & the doors will be > closed, the A/C will be on & no ventilation for 6 or 7 mos. I am > dreading it. > > It gets confusing when your Naturopath recommends an ozonator (of > course when your not in the house). Sounds like you're really just > stuck with cruddy air for the most part. > > Thank you SO much for this explanation-I'm sure lots of us didn't > know that about sizes of particles & molecules etc. I don't look at > every post because I just don't have time-too many? So if you said > this before, I apologize. > > Ok Carl, You actually took the time to type all those rivers. WoW! I > hope you are a fast typer. Ha! Loni > > > " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: > Loni, > > You did express your doubts and ask, so congratulations! You also > acknowledged that the ozone issue is a hot topic. And it is. It is > true there are a lot of new people so I'll add a few more comments. > That said, this whole ozone discussion is a repeat of a repeat of a > repeat of a repeat. > > One of my favorite authors, Least Heat Moon, wrote a book > called River Horse. He took a boat from the east coast to the west > only on rivers. To make the point of how boring the long stretches of > some placid rivers were he filled two pages with nothing but the words > " river river river river. " He didn't even break the monotony with > commas or an occasional " rock. " This recurring ozone discussion is > beginning to read like those two pages of river river river river > river river river river river river river river river river river > river river river river river river river river river river river > river river river river river river river river river river river > river river river river river. Except the noun changes as the market > catches on to the deceit. > > Your criteria for the removal capabilities of dust is whether or not > it removes enough dust see a reduction in dust. Simple, straight > forward, common sense. Your evaluation of your HEPA is that it fails > your test. Great! But why? > > The HEPA and any other filter that strains particles from the air only > removes the particles that go through the HEPA. Particles at some > distance from the HEPA won't ever go through it and won't be removed. > Also, if the dust is disturbed from surfaces, HVAC, open windows, > pets, etc, and comes in at the same rate that the HEPA removes then > you won't see any difference. > > Think of a lake. If the water comes in as fast as it leaves it stays > the same. If less, it dries up. If greater, it's called a flood. So if > dust comes into a room too fast it's called " a lack of ozone. " Ooops! > I got ahead of myself. If dust input is greater, it accumulates. > Particles 101 and Air Filters 101. > > The CADR rating (Clean Air Delivery Rate) is based on all that plus > more, such as most filters including HEPA aren't very good at big > particles -- and visible dust is BIG!!!!!!! - a hundred times or more > than what a HEPA is designed to remove. Because they never make it to > the filter! They settle out first on surfaces and can be seen. The > bigger they are the quicker they fall but the less they can be > filtered. > > So what about a different technology. Liked OZONE!!! What does ozone > have to do with particles? If anything, they affect molecules which > are thousands of times smaller than HEPA filtered particles because > they are thousands of times smaller than the particles. Picture a > grain of sand moving a mountain. > > Also, notice I said different " technology " not different " name. " The > " Radiant Catalytic Ionionization " (huh?) with or without " UV Light " > (what's UV got to do with dust?) is a " technology " more commonly > called " marketing. " It is no different than the ultimate air purifier > I wrote about last week. All words. > > They get away with hype and lies because they promise what we want > most but is impossible to have. They will make tons of money before > the law can shut them down because the law has to follow the law > (outside of DC that is). They have to receive a complaint, gather > evidence, build a case, get a " consent decree " through the FTC, notice > they violated the decree over the past 2-3 years and then file a DOJ > case to be tried in 2-3 years with appeals for another 1-2 years. In > the meantime, they sell their " technology " to another corporate > structure and continue un-interrupted. Maybe having a dictator would > be better. ;-) > > And they have not cleaned the air for you or me or anyone. Instead > they have filled it with a pollutant that is an irritant, sometimes > asthma trigger, lung deterioration and other harmful effects. It > replaces one source of exposure with another. And we allow it because > WE WANT TO BELIEVE! We NEED to believe! To keep hope alive. Isn't this > obscene? > > Remember " Particles 101 " and " Air Filters 101 " and " Ozone 101. " If > taught that in kindergarden than we would have learned all we needed > to know. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > > ----- > > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) > > but don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does anyone > > know anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant Catalytic > > Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 square feet. A > > friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about it. > > > > Loni > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Sorry, guys! After the first example, which is correct, I screwed up the math real bad. But I hope you get enough of the idea to comprehend the charts on the box. For those that are interested, the correct math is: ... Oh, forget it. Math is NOT fun! Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- Loni, I certainly don't want to discourage anybody from asking whatever they need to ask, and you are right that there are other topics that are repetitive. But like KC said, figuring out ozone is easy compared to the other topics that are debateable. Ozone isn't. The HEPA " reaches " as far as the air movement from it " reaches. " However, the farther away the less often it gets circulated through. So the ratings for a particular sized room are really based on amount of air not that ALL air is filtered equally. Now, here's the math: The filters are rated by cubic feet per minute (CFM) and they recommend 4-8 air exchanges per hour. If you have a room that is 10x10 feet that's 100 square feet. A typical 8 foot ceiling makes 800 cubic feet for the room. If you want 10 air exchanges each hour, to make the math easier, that is 8000 cubic feet that needs filtering. So how many CFM is needed to get 8000 per hour? Divide 8000 by 60 minutes = 133 CFM. <This is correct> <These are wrong> -- If you want only 6 per hour you need 6000 cubic feet per hour = 100 cubic feet per minute.<should be 80 cfm>. 4 exchanges per hour needs only 67 CFM. <should be 53 cfm>. Most of the HEPA filters now have accurate charts on the box so you don't have to carry a calculator with you. The reason they don't make the fans bigger or faster is they cost more and make more noise. For example, a 15 x 30 open area with 8 exchanges per hour needs 480 CFM. That's BIG and noisy like the ones that remediators use - just remember Rhonda's experience and how disorienting it can be. Isn't math fun? And you all thought it was boring and useless. Boring, yes. But powerful! Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- > Carl, > Thank you for your KIND explanation & I will keep if I need to > refer at any time in the future. I will certainly never bring it > up on this forum again. However, many things are discussed over & > over & over, not just ozone. The RCI & UV Light is fancy marketing > I guess. I wondered what the UV Light was all about. Now I know, > " nothing " . My friend LOVES her Eco Quest so I had to look into it. > > > So what you're saying that just because my airspace looks filthy, > the HEPA should be taking some smaller stuff out. I just wonder > how far it reaches, Of course marketing says 500 square feet or > so. Hmm. Maybe 24 square feet. Seems like the fans should be > stronger & suck all that air in & clean it. Wishful thinking. When > the sun comes in I just want to hold my breath. Yuck! > > We do want to believe & it is obscene because we're desperate for > some fresh non toxic air. So the search goes on. > > Soon, in Arizona, it will be 110 plus degress & the doors will be > closed, the A/C will be on & no ventilation for 6 or 7 mos. I am > dreading it. > > It gets confusing when your Naturopath recommends an ozonator (of > course when your not in the house). Sounds like you're really just > stuck with cruddy air for the most part. > > Thank you SO much for this explanation-I'm sure lots of us didn't > know that about sizes of particles & molecules etc. I don't look > at every post because I just don't have time-too many? So if you > said this before, I apologize. > > Ok Carl, You actually took the time to type all those rivers. WoW! > I hope you are a fast typer. Ha! Loni > > > " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: > Loni, > > You did express your doubts and ask, so congratulations! You also > acknowledged that the ozone issue is a hot topic. And it is. It is > true there are a lot of new people so I'll add a few more comments. > That said, this whole ozone discussion is a repeat of a repeat of a > repeat of a repeat. > > One of my favorite authors, Least Heat Moon, wrote a book > called River Horse. He took a boat from the east coast to the west > only on rivers. To make the point of how boring the long stretches > of some placid rivers were he filled two pages with nothing but the > words " river river river river. " He didn't even break the monotony > with commas or an occasional " rock. " This recurring ozone discussion > is beginning to read like those two pages of river river river river > river river river river river river river river river river river > river river river river river river river river river river river > river river river river river river river river river river river > river river river river river. Except the noun changes as the market > catches on to the deceit. > > Your criteria for the removal capabilities of dust is whether or not > it removes enough dust see a reduction in dust. Simple, straight > forward, common sense. Your evaluation of your HEPA is that it fails > your test. Great! But why? > > The HEPA and any other filter that strains particles from the air > only removes the particles that go through the HEPA. Particles at > some distance from the HEPA won't ever go through it and won't be > removed. Also, if the dust is disturbed from surfaces, HVAC, open > windows, pets, etc, and comes in at the same rate that the HEPA > removes then you won't see any difference. > > Think of a lake. If the water comes in as fast as it leaves it stays > the same. If less, it dries up. If greater, it's called a flood. So > if dust comes into a room too fast it's called " a lack of ozone. " > Ooops! I got ahead of myself. If dust input is greater, it > accumulates. Particles 101 and Air Filters 101. > > The CADR rating (Clean Air Delivery Rate) is based on all that plus > more, such as most filters including HEPA aren't very good at big > particles -- and visible dust is BIG!!!!!!! - a hundred times or > more than what a HEPA is designed to remove. Because they never make > it to the filter! They settle out first on surfaces and can be seen. > The bigger they are the quicker they fall but the less they can be > filtered. > > So what about a different technology. Liked OZONE!!! What does ozone > have to do with particles? If anything, they affect molecules which > are thousands of times smaller than HEPA filtered particles because > they are thousands of times smaller than the particles. Picture a > grain of sand moving a mountain. > > Also, notice I said different " technology " not different " name. " The > " Radiant Catalytic Ionionization " (huh?) with or without " UV Light " > (what's UV got to do with dust?) is a " technology " more commonly > called " marketing. " It is no different than the ultimate air > purifier I wrote about last week. All words. > > They get away with hype and lies because they promise what we want > most but is impossible to have. They will make tons of money before > the law can shut them down because the law has to follow the law > (outside of DC that is). They have to receive a complaint, gather > evidence, build a case, get a " consent decree " through the FTC, > notice they violated the decree over the past 2-3 years and then > file a DOJ case to be tried in 2-3 years with appeals for another > 1-2 years. In the meantime, they sell their " technology " to another > corporate structure and continue un-interrupted. Maybe having a > dictator would be better. ;-) > > And they have not cleaned the air for you or me or anyone. Instead > they have filled it with a pollutant that is an irritant, sometimes > asthma trigger, lung deterioration and other harmful effects. It > replaces one source of exposure with another. And we allow it > because WE WANT TO BELIEVE! We NEED to believe! To keep hope alive. > Isn't this obscene? > > Remember " Particles 101 " and " Air Filters 101 " and " Ozone 101. " If > taught that in kindergarden than we would have learned all we needed > to know. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > > ----- > > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) > > but don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does > > anyone know anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant > > Catalytic Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 > > square feet. A friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about > > it. > > > > Loni > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I would say her hepa is not working because she is probably too sick to benefit from this type of help- if Loni can breathe fine out of doors, then the environment is too polluted to be helped by an air filter. We have discussed many times also that mycotoxins are hard to filter out- this is an experament only Loni can do- can you breathe OK out of doors and in other peoples homes and places?-If the answer is no- then you are very sick and need to recover- whatever it takes- if breathing outside in clean fresh air- or other homes that are clean make you feel good- then you need to live outside or someplace else to get healthy- an air filter can not make up for living in a polluted environment- - In , " tigerpaw2c " <tigerpaw2c@...> wrote: > > As far as this being a hot button, yes it is. I have a hard time > with products that cause further damage to people and their belongs > so readily accepted, even when the facts have been stated numerous > times. As far as new people asking, so far it seems to be the people > who have had it explained over and over again that just don't seem > to get it. > So sorry if my passion for the welfare of the members of this group > and their families appears to you as a hot button. Knowing what you > know about these types of machines I would have thought you would > have spoken to your friend on their dangers instead of asking about > using them. Oh well, to each his own. > > I have no idea why your hepa filter wouldn't be working, maybe it is > defective. If you can go to Wal-Mart or K-Mart and get a 3 stage > HEPA filter, get the largest one they have, about $120-130.00 > > > > > > > > > > > I know these are discussed alot here. > > > > > > > > A) > > > > AM I reading correctly that an Ion/Ozonater is totally out, > > > because of chemicals and spreading mold/contamination? > > > > > > > > Would it have any temporary benefit, if run while I'm out of > > > house? > > > > > > > > And what is the word on windows open or closed, while it's > > running? > > > > > > > > I have to turn off my expensive > > > > AllerAire units, becasue of no $$ to get all the filters > > replaced. > > > > So, I have put a request > > > > on a FreeCycle List for Air Cleaners till I figure out what to > > do. > > > > I need to run something here for dust, pollen and > > chemicals/smoke > > > in the building. > > > > > > > > > > > > Which would be best kind(s) and worst kind(s) > > > > ( 1 million dollar question? Is there anyting all agree on on > > > this?) > > > > > > > > THanks! > > > > > > > > Katrina > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Mediun density fiberboard- would probably kill a good # of people on this site- I have recovered today- so I only suffered short term from the exposure -- In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@...> wrote: > > > > What is MDF shelving? > > > > Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:42:03 -0000 From: carondeen > > <kdeanstudios@...> Reply- To: > > Subject: [] Re: Air Cleaners > > > > Wonder if it will help with MDF shelving- I just was flattened by > > MDF shelving my contracter was trying to put in my house- Never > > discussed it- had to have it all pulled and put in Wire shelving- > > left it up in a studio closet that I will keep shut- maybe this will > > help if I hang a couple in there? > > > >> > >>> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 07:04:21 -0000 > >>> From: kattemayo <kattemayo@> > >>> Reply- > >>> > >>> Subject: [] Air Cleaners > >>> > >>> I know these are discussed alot here. > >>> > >>> A) > >>> AM I reading correctly that an Ion/Ozonater is totally out, > > because of chemicals and spreading mold/contamination? > >>> > >>> Would it have any temporary benefit, if run while I'm out of > > house? > >>> > >>> And what is the word on windows open or closed, while it's > > running? > >>> > >>> I have to turn off my expensive > >>> AllerAire units, becasue of no $$ to get all the filters > > replaced. > >>> So, I have put a request > >>> on a FreeCycle List for Air Cleaners till I figure out what to > > do. > >>> I need to run something here for dust, pollen and > > chemicals/smoke in the building. > >>> > >>> > >>> Which would be best kind(s) and worst kind(s) > >>> ( 1 million dollar question? Is there anyting all agree on on > > this?) > >>> > >>> THanks! > >>> > >>> Katrina > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> FAIR USE NOTICE: > >>> > >>> > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Carl, I can't follow those numbers esp. today feeling horrible. My Hunter hepa air filter one says 330sq ft and the other is near 400sqft. My house is 864 sq ft. So how much air do these filters cover? I have standard ceilings. I may look into getting the airistar HAPA not HEPA air purifier. It has a 6 stage filterizaton BUT can I afford the filters that go with it!! It covered a larger sq footage but can't recall right not. Maybe I should just take the Hunter ones back to Lowes. Yes, the air scrubbers whipped me good and I haven't felt right since!!! Only took one minute and I was swelling up and felt crazy and still feeling BAD! Rhonda > > Loni, > > > > You did express your doubts and ask, so congratulations! You also > > acknowledged that the ozone issue is a hot topic. And it is. It is > > true there are a lot of new people so I'll add a few more comments. > > That said, this whole ozone discussion is a repeat of a repeat of a > > repeat of a repeat. > > > > One of my favorite authors, Least Heat Moon, wrote a book > > called River Horse. He took a boat from the east coast to the west > > only on rivers. To make the point of how boring the long stretches > > of some placid rivers were he filled two pages with nothing but the > > words " river river river river. " He didn't even break the monotony > > with commas or an occasional " rock. " This recurring ozone discussion > > is beginning to read like those two pages of river river river river > > river river river river river river river river river river river > > river river river river river river river river river river river > > river river river river river river river river river river river > > river river river river river. Except the noun changes as the market > > catches on to the deceit. > > > > Your criteria for the removal capabilities of dust is whether or not > > it removes enough dust see a reduction in dust. Simple, straight > > forward, common sense. Your evaluation of your HEPA is that it fails > > your test. Great! But why? > > > > The HEPA and any other filter that strains particles from the air > > only removes the particles that go through the HEPA. Particles at > > some distance from the HEPA won't ever go through it and won't be > > removed. Also, if the dust is disturbed from surfaces, HVAC, open > > windows, pets, etc, and comes in at the same rate that the HEPA > > removes then you won't see any difference. > > > > Think of a lake. If the water comes in as fast as it leaves it stays > > the same. If less, it dries up. If greater, it's called a flood. So > > if dust comes into a room too fast it's called " a lack of ozone. " > > Ooops! I got ahead of myself. If dust input is greater, it > > accumulates. Particles 101 and Air Filters 101. > > > > The CADR rating (Clean Air Delivery Rate) is based on all that plus > > more, such as most filters including HEPA aren't very good at big > > particles -- and visible dust is BIG!!!!!!! - a hundred times or > > more than what a HEPA is designed to remove. Because they never make > > it to the filter! They settle out first on surfaces and can be seen. > > The bigger they are the quicker they fall but the less they can be > > filtered. > > > > So what about a different technology. Liked OZONE!!! What does ozone > > have to do with particles? If anything, they affect molecules which > > are thousands of times smaller than HEPA filtered particles because > > they are thousands of times smaller than the particles. Picture a > > grain of sand moving a mountain. > > > > Also, notice I said different " technology " not different " name. " The > > " Radiant Catalytic Ionionization " (huh?) with or without " UV Light " > > (what's UV got to do with dust?) is a " technology " more commonly > > called " marketing. " It is no different than the ultimate air > > purifier I wrote about last week. All words. > > > > They get away with hype and lies because they promise what we want > > most but is impossible to have. They will make tons of money before > > the law can shut them down because the law has to follow the law > > (outside of DC that is). They have to receive a complaint, gather > > evidence, build a case, get a " consent decree " through the FTC, > > notice they violated the decree over the past 2-3 years and then > > file a DOJ case to be tried in 2-3 years with appeals for another > > 1-2 years. In the meantime, they sell their " technology " to another > > corporate structure and continue un-interrupted. Maybe having a > > dictator would be better. ;-) > > > > And they have not cleaned the air for you or me or anyone. Instead > > they have filled it with a pollutant that is an irritant, sometimes > > asthma trigger, lung deterioration and other harmful effects. It > > replaces one source of exposure with another. And we allow it > > because WE WANT TO BELIEVE! We NEED to believe! To keep hope alive. > > Isn't this obscene? > > > > Remember " Particles 101 " and " Air Filters 101 " and " Ozone 101. " If > > taught that in kindergarden than we would have learned all we needed > > to know. > > > > Carl Grimes > > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > > ----- > > > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) > > > but don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does > > > anyone know anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant > > > Catalytic Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 > > > square feet. A friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about > > > it. > > > > > > Loni > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Thanks Angel, I think I figured that one out. Loni Angel!! <jap2bemc@...> wrote: Eco Quest is an ozone generator. > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:19:52 -0800 (PST) From: Loni Rosser > <loni326@...> Reply- To: > Subject: Re: [] Re: Air > Cleaners > > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) but > don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does anyone know > anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant Catalytic > Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 square feet. A > friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about it. > > Loni > > carondeen <kdeanstudios@...> wrote: > I think buying new air cleaners has to be more expensive than > filters- there is no magic sir cleaner that is going to clean all of > that out of the air- yes- a big no to ozone in the living enviroment- > the hepa type is the best > > >> >> I know these are discussed alot here. >> >> A) >> AM I reading correctly that an Ion/Ozonater is totally out, > because of chemicals and spreading mold/contamination? >> >> Would it have any temporary benefit, if run while I'm out of > house? >> >> And what is the word on windows open or closed, while it's running? >> >> I have to turn off my expensive >> AllerAire units, becasue of no $$ to get all the filters replaced. >> So, I have put a request >> on a FreeCycle List for Air Cleaners till I figure out what to do. >> I need to run something here for dust, pollen and chemicals/smoke > in the building. >> >> >> Which would be best kind(s) and worst kind(s) >> ( 1 million dollar question? Is there anyting all agree on on > this?) >> >> THanks! >> >> Katrina >> > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 You ought to have heard the silly stuff people told me. One being can't you just spray lysol under your house! People are so uneducated about MOLD it's INSANE!!! and can't you just spray bleach........Now I'm hearing MOVE so I can cross contaminate a new place that they do not get. Lysol..........please. Just adds to the flame all the stupid things people say to us. Rhonda --- In , Christ <antares41-41@...> wrote: > And ridiculous advice. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 >>>On Behalf Of Rhonda You ought to have heard the silly stuff people told me. One being can't you just spray lysol under your house! People are so uneducated about MOLD it's INSANE!!! and can't you just spray bleach........Now I'm hearing MOVE so I can cross contaminate a new place that they do not get. Lysol..........please. Just adds to the flame all the stupid things people say to us. Rhonda>>> Rhonda people are very ignorant in many areas. I've learned it's best to ignore such people unless they are willing to be educated. If not, I say thank you and go on my business without fuming about their response. The reason is we are all living under such tremendous stress and stress will make us physically ill. Please consider what I'm saying: You've been under severe stress, you adrenals, your entire endocrine system is in " fright-flight " mode and you are feeling that physically as well as the toxins you have and are being exposed to. The more stress you body encounters the more physically ill you will become. Please try to ignore such uneducated remarks for your own safety. If you want to talk, email me your phone number. You need a hug; sending you one right now! Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Rhonda, I obviously couldn't follow the numbers either! The filter you have that says 330 sq ft should also say how many air exchanges per hour for that 330 sq ft room. If it is 4, for example, and it helps but not enough, then you need a bigger unit that will do 6 or 8 exhanges per hour. That doesn't mean the filter isn't working, it just needs to be in a smaller room. The number of stages doesn't improve the cleanliness of the air. The filter stage with the smallest holes determines the smallest particles removed. The pre-filters remove the big stuff so it won't clog the HEPA with the smallest hole so quickly. If one or more stages have charcoal, Purifil, zeolite or a mix of them then that is to reduce chemicals and odors. Notice I said " reduce " not " remove. " They aren't as good with chemicals as the HEPA is with particles. To " clean " a bigger room, you need more CFM not more stages. Carl ----- > Carl, I can't follow those numbers esp. today feeling horrible. My > Hunter hepa air filter one says 330sq ft and the other is near > 400sqft. My house is 864 sq ft. So how much air do these filters > cover? I have standard ceilings. I may look into getting the > airistar HAPA not HEPA air purifier. It has a 6 stage filterizaton > BUT can I afford the filters that go with it!! It covered a larger sq > footage but can't recall right not. Maybe I should just take the > Hunter ones back to Lowes. > > Yes, the air scrubbers whipped me good and I haven't felt right > since!!! Only took one minute and I was swelling up and felt crazy > and still feeling BAD! > > Rhonda > > > > > > Loni, > > > > You did express your > doubts and ask, so congratulations! You also > > acknowledged that the > ozone issue is a hot topic. And it is. It is > > true there are a lot > of new people so I'll add a few more comments. > > That said, this > whole ozone discussion is a repeat of a repeat of a > > repeat of a > repeat. > > > > One of my favorite authors, Least Heat Moon, > wrote a book > > called River Horse. He took a boat from the east > coast to the west > > only on rivers. To make the point of how boring > the long stretches > > of some placid rivers were he filled two pages > with nothing but the > > words " river river river river. " He didn't > even break the monotony > > with commas or an occasional " rock. " This > recurring ozone discussion > > is beginning to read like those two > pages of river river river river > > river river river river river > river river river river river river > > river river river river river > river river river river river river > > river river river river river > river river river river river river > > river river river river river. > Except the noun changes as the market > > catches on to the deceit. > > > > > Your criteria for the removal capabilities of dust is whether or > not > > it removes enough dust see a reduction in dust. Simple, > straight > > forward, common sense. Your evaluation of your HEPA is > that it fails > > your test. Great! But why? > > > > The HEPA and any > other filter that strains particles from the air > > only removes the > particles that go through the HEPA. Particles at > > some distance > from the HEPA won't ever go through it and won't be > > removed. Also, > if the dust is disturbed from surfaces, HVAC, open > > windows, pets, > etc, and comes in at the same rate that the HEPA > > removes then you > won't see any difference. > > > > Think of a lake. If the water comes > in as fast as it leaves it stays > > the same. If less, it dries up. > If greater, it's called a flood. So > > if dust comes into a room too > fast it's called " a lack of ozone. " > > Ooops! I got ahead of myself. > If dust input is greater, it > > accumulates. Particles 101 and Air > Filters 101. > > > > The CADR rating (Clean Air Delivery Rate) is > based on all that plus > > more, such as most filters including HEPA > aren't very good at big > > particles -- and visible dust is > BIG!!!!!!! - a hundred times or > > more than what a HEPA is designed > to remove. Because they never make > > it to the filter! They settle > out first on surfaces and can be seen. > > The bigger they are the > quicker they fall but the less they can be > > filtered. > > > > So > what about a different technology. Liked OZONE!!! What does ozone > > > have to do with particles? If anything, they affect molecules which > > > are thousands of times smaller than HEPA filtered particles because > > > they are thousands of times smaller than the particles. Picture a > > > grain of sand moving a mountain. > > > > Also, notice I said > different " technology " not different " name. " The > > " Radiant > Catalytic Ionionization " (huh?) with or without " UV Light " > > (what's > UV got to do with dust?) is a " technology " more commonly > > called > " marketing. " It is no different than the ultimate air > > purifier I > wrote about last week. All words. > > > > They get away with hype and > lies because they promise what we want > > most but is impossible to > have. They will make tons of money before > > the law can shut them > down because the law has to follow the law > > (outside of DC that > is). They have to receive a complaint, gather > > evidence, build a > case, get a " consent decree " through the FTC, > > notice they violated > the decree over the past 2-3 years and then > > file a DOJ case to be > tried in 2-3 years with appeals for another > > 1-2 years. In the > meantime, they sell their " technology " to another > > corporate > structure and continue un-interrupted. Maybe having a > > dictator > would be better. ;-) > > > > And they have not cleaned the air for you > or me or anyone. Instead > > they have filled it with a pollutant that > is an irritant, sometimes > > asthma trigger, lung deterioration and > other harmful effects. It > > replaces one source of exposure with > another. And we allow it > > because WE WANT TO BELIEVE! We NEED to > believe! To keep hope alive. > > Isn't this obscene? > > > > Remember > " Particles 101 " and " Air Filters 101 " and " Ozone 101. " If > > taught > that in kindergarden than we would have learned all we needed > > to > know. > > > > Carl Grimes > > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > > ----- > > > > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) > > > > but don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does > > > > anyone know anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant > > > > Catalytic Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 > > > > square feet. A friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about > > > > it. > > > > > > Loni > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Loni, In one sense, air filters are actually very simple. All you need to know is the size of the holes in the filter. A HEPA filter makes it easy because they are always 0.3 microns. That means any particle 0.3 microns and larger will be stopped, like sifting sand through screen wire or rinsing berries with a strainer. The berries stay while the water goes through. Almost all particles of concern are 1 micron or larger so a HEPA is sufficient. If it isn't a HEPA then it either doesn't remove small enough particles or it is " pretend " disguised as " new technology. " As for the math, I apologize for the confusion including the errors. The errors are really insignificant because the main point is that there is a precise way of calculating how much air a filter needs to move for a specific room and how often you want the air to go through the filter. The more times you want the air to go through and the bigger the room, the bigger the fan. The bigger the fan the higher the cost and the more noise. Forget my confusing math and look at the chart on the box for the filter. As for other ways of cleaning air, there really aren't any. Besides, filters are really a final step, not the first step to clean air. If you want cleaner air, the following actions are in order of most effective to least effective: 1. Remove the source. The contaminant is gone which means there is no exposure. It is no longer in the air so you don't need a filter. 2. Isolate the source. It is still there but it can't get to you. A sealed moisture barrier in a crawlspace for example, pet dander on walls that are vacuumed and then painted. Most is removed but what is left is behind the paint and you aren't exposed. Note: it is true for a light dusting of mold spores and fragments but not for mold growth. 3. Dilute the source by ventilation. It is still there but the exposure is decreased because it is mixed with more air. Especially effective with chemicals, not so effective with particles because many are too big to stay in the air. 4. Reduce the source by filtration. It is still there but portions of it are sequentially removed IF it goes through the filter. It's like removing mud from a flooded basement. First you need shovels to remove the mud, then brooms, then vacuums, then Q-tips. Air filters function more like Q-tips than shovels. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- > Carl, Well I am discouraged but thanks for being patient with someone > sick & new at this. I don't believe I deserved the kind of response > that I got. You have been very helpful. With the new technology (Ha) > RCI & UV Light, I didn't know what it was. Maybe I should see if Sears > would exchange the Hepa for another one to make sure it is doing > something. Don't know if they will. The math is a little much for me > right now but I guess it was incorrect from your other post. So > Basically I shouldn't expect the Hepa to clean a very large area. I > could tolerate a bigger fan if it gave me cleaner air I think. Loni > > " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: Loni, > > I certainly don't want to discourage anybody from asking whatever they > need to ask, and you are right that there are other topics that are > repetitive. But like KC said, figuring out ozone is easy compared to > the other topics that are debateable. Ozone isn't. > > The HEPA " reaches " as far as the air movement from it " reaches. " > However, the farther away the less often it gets circulated through. > So the ratings for a particular sized room are really based on amount > of air not that ALL air is filtered equally. Now, here's the math: > > The filters are rated by cubic feet per minute (CFM) and they > recommend 4-8 air exchanges per hour. If you have a room that is 10x10 > feet that's 100 square feet. A typical 8 foot ceiling makes 800 cubic > feet for the room. If you want 10 air exchanges each hour, to make the > math easier, that is 8000 cubic feet that needs filtering. > > So how many CFM is needed to get 8000 per hour? Divide 8000 by 60 > minutes = 133 CFM. If you want only 6 per hour you need 6000 cubic > feet per hour = 100 cubic feet per minute. 4 exchanges per hour needs > only 67 CFM. Most of the HEPA filters now have accurate charts on the > box so you don't have to carry a calculator with you. > > The reason they don't make the fans bigger or faster is they cost more > and make more noise. For example, a 15 x 30 open area with 8 exchanges > per hour needs 480 CFM. That's BIG and noisy like the ones that > remediators use - just remember Rhonda's experience and how > disorienting it can be. Isn't math fun? And you all thought it was > boring and useless. Boring, yes. But powerful! > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > > ----- > > Carl, > > Thank you for your KIND explanation & I will keep if I need to > > refer at any time in the future. I will certainly never bring it > > up on this forum again. However, many things are discussed over & > > over & over, not just ozone. The RCI & UV Light is fancy marketing > > I guess. I wondered what the UV Light was all about. Now I know, > > " nothing " . My friend LOVES her Eco Quest so I had to look into it. > > > > > > So what you're saying that just because my airspace looks filthy, > > the HEPA should be taking some smaller stuff out. I just wonder > > how far it reaches, Of course marketing says 500 square feet or > > so. Hmm. Maybe 24 square feet. Seems like the fans should be > > stronger & suck all that air in & clean it. Wishful thinking. When > > the sun comes in I just want to hold my breath. Yuck! > > > > We do want to believe & it is obscene because we're desperate for > > some fresh non toxic air. So the search goes on. > > > > Soon, in Arizona, it will be 110 plus degress & the doors will be > > closed, the A/C will be on & no ventilation for 6 or 7 mos. I am > > dreading it. > > > > It gets confusing when your Naturopath recommends an ozonator (of > > course when your not in the house). Sounds like you're really just > > stuck with cruddy air for the most part. > > > > Thank you SO much for this explanation-I'm sure lots of us didn't > > know that about sizes of particles & molecules etc. I don't look > > at every post because I just don't have time-too many? So if you > > said this before, I apologize. > > > > Ok Carl, You actually took the time to type all those rivers. WoW! > > I hope you are a fast typer. Ha! Loni > > > > > > " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: > > Loni, > > > > You did express your doubts and ask, so congratulations! You also > > acknowledged that the ozone issue is a hot topic. And it is. It is > > true there are a lot of new people so I'll add a few more comments. > > That said, this whole ozone discussion is a repeat of a repeat of a > > repeat of a repeat. > > > > One of my favorite authors, Least Heat Moon, wrote a book > > called River Horse. He took a boat from the east coast to the west > > only on rivers. To make the point of how boring the long stretches > > of some placid rivers were he filled two pages with nothing but the > > words " river river river river. " He didn't even break the monotony > > with commas or an occasional " rock. " This recurring ozone discussion > > is beginning to read like those two pages of river river river river > > river river river river river river river river river river river > > river river river river river river river river river river river > > river river river river river river river river river river river > > river river river river river. Except the noun changes as the market > > catches on to the deceit. > > > > Your criteria for the removal capabilities of dust is whether or not > > it removes enough dust see a reduction in dust. Simple, straight > > forward, common sense. Your evaluation of your HEPA is that it fails > > your test. Great! But why? > > > > The HEPA and any other filter that strains particles from the air > > only removes the particles that go through the HEPA. Particles at > > some distance from the HEPA won't ever go through it and won't be > > removed. Also, if the dust is disturbed from surfaces, HVAC, open > > windows, pets, etc, and comes in at the same rate that the HEPA > > removes then you won't see any difference. > > > > Think of a lake. If the water comes in as fast as it leaves it stays > > the same. If less, it dries up. If greater, it's called a flood. So > > if dust comes into a room too fast it's called " a lack of ozone. " > > Ooops! I got ahead of myself. If dust input is greater, it > > accumulates. Particles 101 and Air Filters 101. > > > > The CADR rating (Clean Air Delivery Rate) is based on all that plus > > more, such as most filters including HEPA aren't very good at big > > particles -- and visible dust is BIG!!!!!!! - a hundred times or > > more than what a HEPA is designed to remove. Because they never make > > it to the filter! They settle out first on surfaces and can be seen. > > The bigger they are the quicker they fall but the less they can be > > filtered. > > > > So what about a different technology. Liked OZONE!!! What does ozone > > have to do with particles? If anything, they affect molecules which > > are thousands of times smaller than HEPA filtered particles because > > they are thousands of times smaller than the particles. Picture a > > grain of sand moving a mountain. > > > > Also, notice I said different " technology " not different " name. " The > > " Radiant Catalytic Ionionization " (huh?) with or without " UV Light " > > (what's UV got to do with dust?) is a " technology " more commonly > > called " marketing. " It is no different than the ultimate air > > purifier I wrote about last week. All words. > > > > They get away with hype and lies because they promise what we want > > most but is impossible to have. They will make tons of money before > > the law can shut them down because the law has to follow the law > > (outside of DC that is). They have to receive a complaint, gather > > evidence, build a case, get a " consent decree " through the FTC, > > notice they violated the decree over the past 2-3 years and then > > file a DOJ case to be tried in 2-3 years with appeals for another > > 1-2 years. In the meantime, they sell their " technology " to another > > corporate structure and continue un-interrupted. Maybe having a > > dictator would be better. ;-) > > > > And they have not cleaned the air for you or me or anyone. Instead > > they have filled it with a pollutant that is an irritant, sometimes > > asthma trigger, lung deterioration and other harmful effects. It > > replaces one source of exposure with another. And we allow it > > because WE WANT TO BELIEVE! We NEED to believe! To keep hope alive. > > Isn't this obscene? > > > > Remember " Particles 101 " and " Air Filters 101 " and " Ozone 101. " If > > taught that in kindergarden than we would have learned all we needed > > to know. > > > > Carl Grimes > > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > > ----- > > > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) > > > but don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does > > > anyone know anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant > > > Catalytic Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 > > > square feet. A friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about > > > it. > > > > > > Loni > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 WOW, now that is precise informatiom Carl.. Nice job... " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: Rhonda, I obviously couldn't follow the numbers either! The filter you have that says 330 sq ft should also say how many air exchanges per hour for that 330 sq ft room. If it is 4, for example, and it helps but not enough, then you need a bigger unit that will do 6 or 8 exhanges per hour. That doesn't mean the filter isn't working, it just needs to be in a smaller room. The number of stages doesn't improve the cleanliness of the air. The filter stage with the smallest holes determines the smallest particles removed. The pre-filters remove the big stuff so it won't clog the HEPA with the smallest hole so quickly. If one or more stages have charcoal, Purifil, zeolite or a mix of them then that is to reduce chemicals and odors. Notice I said " reduce " not " remove. " They aren't as good with chemicals as the HEPA is with particles. To " clean " a bigger room, you need more CFM not more stages. Carl ----- > Carl, I can't follow those numbers esp. today feeling horrible. My > Hunter hepa air filter one says 330sq ft and the other is near > 400sqft. My house is 864 sq ft. So how much air do these filters > cover? I have standard ceilings. I may look into getting the > airistar HAPA not HEPA air purifier. It has a 6 stage filterizaton > BUT can I afford the filters that go with it!! It covered a larger sq > footage but can't recall right not. Maybe I should just take the > Hunter ones back to Lowes. > > Yes, the air scrubbers whipped me good and I haven't felt right > since!!! Only took one minute and I was swelling up and felt crazy > and still feeling BAD! > > Rhonda > > > > > > Loni, > > > > You did express your > doubts and ask, so congratulations! You also > > acknowledged that the > ozone issue is a hot topic. And it is. It is > > true there are a lot > of new people so I'll add a few more comments. > > That said, this > whole ozone discussion is a repeat of a repeat of a > > repeat of a > repeat. > > > > One of my favorite authors, Least Heat Moon, > wrote a book > > called River Horse. He took a boat from the east > coast to the west > > only on rivers. To make the point of how boring > the long stretches > > of some placid rivers were he filled two pages > with nothing but the > > words " river river river river. " He didn't > even break the monotony > > with commas or an occasional " rock. " This > recurring ozone discussion > > is beginning to read like those two > pages of river river river river > > river river river river river > river river river river river river > > river river river river river > river river river river river river > > river river river river river > river river river river river river > > river river river river river. > Except the noun changes as the market > > catches on to the deceit. > > > > > Your criteria for the removal capabilities of dust is whether or > not > > it removes enough dust see a reduction in dust. Simple, > straight > > forward, common sense. Your evaluation of your HEPA is > that it fails > > your test. Great! But why? > > > > The HEPA and any > other filter that strains particles from the air > > only removes the > particles that go through the HEPA. Particles at > > some distance > from the HEPA won't ever go through it and won't be > > removed. Also, > if the dust is disturbed from surfaces, HVAC, open > > windows, pets, > etc, and comes in at the same rate that the HEPA > > removes then you > won't see any difference. > > > > Think of a lake. If the water comes > in as fast as it leaves it stays > > the same. If less, it dries up. > If greater, it's called a flood. So > > if dust comes into a room too > fast it's called " a lack of ozone. " > > Ooops! I got ahead of myself. > If dust input is greater, it > > accumulates. Particles 101 and Air > Filters 101. > > > > The CADR rating (Clean Air Delivery Rate) is > based on all that plus > > more, such as most filters including HEPA > aren't very good at big > > particles -- and visible dust is > BIG!!!!!!! - a hundred times or > > more than what a HEPA is designed > to remove. Because they never make > > it to the filter! They settle > out first on surfaces and can be seen. > > The bigger they are the > quicker they fall but the less they can be > > filtered. > > > > So > what about a different technology. Liked OZONE!!! What does ozone > > > have to do with particles? If anything, they affect molecules which > > > are thousands of times smaller than HEPA filtered particles because > > > they are thousands of times smaller than the particles. Picture a > > > grain of sand moving a mountain. > > > > Also, notice I said > different " technology " not different " name. " The > > " Radiant > Catalytic Ionionization " (huh?) with or without " UV Light " > > (what's > UV got to do with dust?) is a " technology " more commonly > > called > " marketing. " It is no different than the ultimate air > > purifier I > wrote about last week. All words. > > > > They get away with hype and > lies because they promise what we want > > most but is impossible to > have. They will make tons of money before > > the law can shut them > down because the law has to follow the law > > (outside of DC that > is). They have to receive a complaint, gather > > evidence, build a > case, get a " consent decree " through the FTC, > > notice they violated > the decree over the past 2-3 years and then > > file a DOJ case to be > tried in 2-3 years with appeals for another > > 1-2 years. In the > meantime, they sell their " technology " to another > > corporate > structure and continue un-interrupted. Maybe having a > > dictator > would be better. ;-) > > > > And they have not cleaned the air for you > or me or anyone. Instead > > they have filled it with a pollutant that > is an irritant, sometimes > > asthma trigger, lung deterioration and > other harmful effects. It > > replaces one source of exposure with > another. And we allow it > > because WE WANT TO BELIEVE! We NEED to > believe! To keep hope alive. > > Isn't this obscene? > > > > Remember > " Particles 101 " and " Air Filters 101 " and " Ozone 101. " If > > taught > that in kindergarden than we would have learned all we needed > > to > know. > > > > Carl Grimes > > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > > ----- > > > > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) > > > > but don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does > > > > anyone know anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant > > > > Catalytic Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 > > > > square feet. A friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about > > > > it. > > > > > > Loni > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Hi all--I have a serious question here. I've been having BAD renal (kidney) pain again for awhile now....can anyone tell me if they know the REASON we have this? I see my urologist tomorrow (actually, my urologist's partner!), & I'd like to share some info with him. I haven't had a good week! Last night I fell (again!) due to NO balance, & tonight I'm plenty sore. If anyone can answer this, please email me asap? Thanks so much! Re: [] Re: Air Cleaners > Rhonda, > > I obviously couldn't follow the numbers either! The filter you have > that says 330 sq ft should also say how many air exchanges per hour > for that 330 sq ft room. If it is 4, for example, and it helps but > not enough, then you need a bigger unit that will do 6 or 8 exhanges > per hour. That doesn't mean the filter isn't working, it just needs > to be in a smaller room. > > The number of stages doesn't improve the cleanliness of the air. The > filter stage with the smallest holes determines the smallest > particles removed. The pre-filters remove the big stuff so it won't > clog the HEPA with the smallest hole so quickly. If one or more > stages have charcoal, Purifil, zeolite or a mix of them then that is > to reduce chemicals and odors. Notice I said " reduce " not " remove. " > They aren't as good with chemicals as the HEPA is with particles. > > To " clean " a bigger room, you need more CFM not more stages. > > Carl > > ----- >> Carl, I can't follow those numbers esp. today feeling horrible. My >> Hunter hepa air filter one says 330sq ft and the other is near >> 400sqft. My house is 864 sq ft. So how much air do these filters >> cover? I have standard ceilings. I may look into getting the >> airistar HAPA not HEPA air purifier. It has a 6 stage filterizaton >> BUT can I afford the filters that go with it!! It covered a larger sq >> footage but can't recall right not. Maybe I should just take the >> Hunter ones back to Lowes. >> >> Yes, the air scrubbers whipped me good and I haven't felt right >> since!!! Only took one minute and I was swelling up and felt crazy >> and still feeling BAD! >> >> Rhonda >> >> >> >> > > Loni, > > > > You did express your >> doubts and ask, so congratulations! You also > > acknowledged that the >> ozone issue is a hot topic. And it is. It is > > true there are a lot >> of new people so I'll add a few more comments. > > That said, this >> whole ozone discussion is a repeat of a repeat of a > > repeat of a >> repeat. > > > > One of my favorite authors, Least Heat Moon, >> wrote a book > > called River Horse. He took a boat from the east >> coast to the west > > only on rivers. To make the point of how boring >> the long stretches > > of some placid rivers were he filled two pages >> with nothing but the > > words " river river river river. " He didn't >> even break the monotony > > with commas or an occasional " rock. " This >> recurring ozone discussion > > is beginning to read like those two >> pages of river river river river > > river river river river river >> river river river river river river > > river river river river river >> river river river river river river > > river river river river river >> river river river river river river > > river river river river river. >> Except the noun changes as the market > > catches on to the deceit. > >> > > > Your criteria for the removal capabilities of dust is whether or >> not > > it removes enough dust see a reduction in dust. Simple, >> straight > > forward, common sense. Your evaluation of your HEPA is >> that it fails > > your test. Great! But why? > > > > The HEPA and any >> other filter that strains particles from the air > > only removes the >> particles that go through the HEPA. Particles at > > some distance >> from the HEPA won't ever go through it and won't be > > removed. Also, >> if the dust is disturbed from surfaces, HVAC, open > > windows, pets, >> etc, and comes in at the same rate that the HEPA > > removes then you >> won't see any difference. > > > > Think of a lake. If the water comes >> in as fast as it leaves it stays > > the same. If less, it dries up. >> If greater, it's called a flood. So > > if dust comes into a room too >> fast it's called " a lack of ozone. " > > Ooops! I got ahead of myself. >> If dust input is greater, it > > accumulates. Particles 101 and Air >> Filters 101. > > > > The CADR rating (Clean Air Delivery Rate) is >> based on all that plus > > more, such as most filters including HEPA >> aren't very good at big > > particles -- and visible dust is >> BIG!!!!!!! - a hundred times or > > more than what a HEPA is designed >> to remove. Because they never make > > it to the filter! They settle >> out first on surfaces and can be seen. > > The bigger they are the >> quicker they fall but the less they can be > > filtered. > > > > So >> what about a different technology. Liked OZONE!!! What does ozone > > >> have to do with particles? If anything, they affect molecules which > >> > are thousands of times smaller than HEPA filtered particles because >> > > they are thousands of times smaller than the particles. Picture a >> > > grain of sand moving a mountain. > > > > Also, notice I said >> different " technology " not different " name. " The > > " Radiant >> Catalytic Ionionization " (huh?) with or without " UV Light " > > (what's >> UV got to do with dust?) is a " technology " more commonly > > called >> " marketing. " It is no different than the ultimate air > > purifier I >> wrote about last week. All words. > > > > They get away with hype and >> lies because they promise what we want > > most but is impossible to >> have. They will make tons of money before > > the law can shut them >> down because the law has to follow the law > > (outside of DC that >> is). They have to receive a complaint, gather > > evidence, build a >> case, get a " consent decree " through the FTC, > > notice they violated >> the decree over the past 2-3 years and then > > file a DOJ case to be >> tried in 2-3 years with appeals for another > > 1-2 years. In the >> meantime, they sell their " technology " to another > > corporate >> structure and continue un-interrupted. Maybe having a > > dictator >> would be better. ;-) > > > > And they have not cleaned the air for you >> or me or anyone. Instead > > they have filled it with a pollutant that >> is an irritant, sometimes > > asthma trigger, lung deterioration and >> other harmful effects. It > > replaces one source of exposure with >> another. And we allow it > > because WE WANT TO BELIEVE! We NEED to >> believe! To keep hope alive. > > Isn't this obscene? > > > > Remember >> " Particles 101 " and " Air Filters 101 " and " Ozone 101. " If > > taught >> that in kindergarden than we would have learned all we needed > > to >> know. > > > > Carl Grimes > > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > > ----- > > > >> I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) > > >> > but don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does > > > >> anyone know anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant > > > >> Catalytic Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 > > > >> square feet. A friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about > > > >> it. > > > > > > Loni > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 So, does Airistar past the test or NOT. Do I waste more $$ I don't have to try to breath better air Carl. I talked to them today and either gonna buy it and take my Lowes crap back or not. RC > > Loni, > > > > You did express your > > doubts and ask, so congratulations! You also > > acknowledged that the > > ozone issue is a hot topic. And it is. It is > > true there are a lot > > of new people so I'll add a few more comments. > > That said, this > > whole ozone discussion is a repeat of a repeat of a > > repeat of a > > repeat. > > > > One of my favorite authors, Least Heat Moon, > > wrote a book > > called River Horse. He took a boat from the east > > coast to the west > > only on rivers. To make the point of how boring > > the long stretches > > of some placid rivers were he filled two pages > > with nothing but the > > words " river river river river. " He didn't > > even break the monotony > > with commas or an occasional " rock. " This > > recurring ozone discussion > > is beginning to read like those two > > pages of river river river river > > river river river river river > > river river river river river river > > river river river river river > > river river river river river river > > river river river river river > > river river river river river river > > river river river river river. > > Except the noun changes as the market > > catches on to the deceit. > > > > > > Your criteria for the removal capabilities of dust is whether or > > not > > it removes enough dust see a reduction in dust. Simple, > > straight > > forward, common sense. Your evaluation of your HEPA is > > that it fails > > your test. Great! But why? > > > > The HEPA and any > > other filter that strains particles from the air > > only removes the > > particles that go through the HEPA. Particles at > > some distance > > from the HEPA won't ever go through it and won't be > > removed. Also, > > if the dust is disturbed from surfaces, HVAC, open > > windows, pets, > > etc, and comes in at the same rate that the HEPA > > removes then you > > won't see any difference. > > > > Think of a lake. If the water comes > > in as fast as it leaves it stays > > the same. If less, it dries up. > > If greater, it's called a flood. So > > if dust comes into a room too > > fast it's called " a lack of ozone. " > > Ooops! I got ahead of myself. > > If dust input is greater, it > > accumulates. Particles 101 and Air > > Filters 101. > > > > The CADR rating (Clean Air Delivery Rate) is > > based on all that plus > > more, such as most filters including HEPA > > aren't very good at big > > particles -- and visible dust is > > BIG!!!!!!! - a hundred times or > > more than what a HEPA is designed > > to remove. Because they never make > > it to the filter! They settle > > out first on surfaces and can be seen. > > The bigger they are the > > quicker they fall but the less they can be > > filtered. > > > > So > > what about a different technology. Liked OZONE!!! What does ozone > > > > have to do with particles? If anything, they affect molecules which > > > > are thousands of times smaller than HEPA filtered particles because > > > > they are thousands of times smaller than the particles. Picture a > > > > grain of sand moving a mountain. > > > > Also, notice I said > > different " technology " not different " name. " The > > " Radiant > > Catalytic Ionionization " (huh?) with or without " UV Light " > > (what's > > UV got to do with dust?) is a " technology " more commonly > > called > > " marketing. " It is no different than the ultimate air > > purifier I > > wrote about last week. All words. > > > > They get away with hype and > > lies because they promise what we want > > most but is impossible to > > have. They will make tons of money before > > the law can shut them > > down because the law has to follow the law > > (outside of DC that > > is). They have to receive a complaint, gather > > evidence, build a > > case, get a " consent decree " through the FTC, > > notice they violated > > the decree over the past 2-3 years and then > > file a DOJ case to be > > tried in 2-3 years with appeals for another > > 1-2 years. In the > > meantime, they sell their " technology " to another > > corporate > > structure and continue un-interrupted. Maybe having a > > dictator > > would be better. ;-) > > > > And they have not cleaned the air for you > > or me or anyone. Instead > > they have filled it with a pollutant that > > is an irritant, sometimes > > asthma trigger, lung deterioration and > > other harmful effects. It > > replaces one source of exposure with > > another. And we allow it > > because WE WANT TO BELIEVE! We NEED to > > believe! To keep hope alive. > > Isn't this obscene? > > > > Remember > > " Particles 101 " and " Air Filters 101 " and " Ozone 101. " If > > taught > > that in kindergarden than we would have learned all we needed > > to > > know. > > > > Carl Grimes > > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > > ----- > > > > > I have bought a hepa that consumers reports recommended (Kenmore) > > > > > but don't see one bit of a reduction in dust in the air. Does > > > > > anyone know anything about Eco Quest Fresh Air. It is Radiant > > > > > Catalytic Ionionization w/ UV Light. Says it cleans up to 3000 > > > > > square feet. A friend has one & likes it but I'm not sure about > > > > > it. > > > > > > Loni > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I would be interested in this too, I have pain constantly under my right rib cage since almost the begriming of my illness. I used to have really dark urine on occasions but now every morning my urine is dark brown without fail I don't ever remember having this problem until just recently. I realize that this may be more of a liver issue than kidney. Just curious if others have this problem too. > >Hi all--I have a serious question here. I've been having BAD renal (kidney) >pain again for awhile now....can anyone tell me if they know the REASON we >have this? I see my urologist tomorrow (actually, my urologist's partner!), > & I'd like to share some info with him. I haven't had a good week! Last >night I fell (again!) due to NO balance, & tonight I'm plenty sore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 What about the smell of the urine. I notice a consistancy in the same smell assosiated with anything from the contaminated home. sweat included. so far the best money I have spent and gotten an abundance of information from is a set of e-books written by Fry for 49.00. You can get them from www.moldmart.net It has been the best source of information yet, plus legal advice and medical as well. Christ <antares41-41@...> wrote: I would be interested in this too, I have pain constantly under my right rib cage since almost the begriming of my illness. I used to have really dark urine on occasions but now every morning my urine is dark brown without fail I don't ever remember having this problem until just recently. I realize that this may be more of a liver issue than kidney. Just curious if others have this problem too. > >Hi all--I have a serious question here. I've been having BAD renal (kidney) >pain again for awhile now....can anyone tell me if they know the REASON we >have this? I see my urologist tomorrow (actually, my urologist's partner!), > & I'd like to share some info with him. I haven't had a good week! Last >night I fell (again!) due to NO balance, & tonight I'm plenty sore. FAIR USE NOTICE: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 THANKS, ROBERT--now let's see what others have to say, huh? V. Re: [] Re: Air Cleaners >I would be interested in this too, I have pain constantly under my > right rib cage since almost the begriming of my illness. I used to > have really dark urine on occasions but now every morning my urine is > dark brown without fail I don't ever remember having this problem > until just recently. > I realize that this may be more of a liver issue than kidney. Just > curious if others have this problem too. > > > >> >>Hi all--I have a serious question here. I've been having BAD renal >>(kidney) >>pain again for awhile now....can anyone tell me if they know the REASON we >>have this? I see my urologist tomorrow (actually, my urologist's >>partner!), >> & I'd like to share some info with him. I haven't had a good week! Last >>night I fell (again!) due to NO balance, & tonight I'm plenty sore. > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 hi again robert--the milk thistle helps my pain, though--what about yours? have you tried it? but i STILL want to get to the bottom of all this...i want to know WHY i'm having so much pain.... v. Re: [] Re: Air Cleaners >I would be interested in this too, I have pain constantly under my > right rib cage since almost the begriming of my illness. I used to > have really dark urine on occasions but now every morning my urine is > dark brown without fail I don't ever remember having this problem > until just recently. > I realize that this may be more of a liver issue than kidney. Just > curious if others have this problem too. > > > >> >>Hi all--I have a serious question here. I've been having BAD renal >>(kidney) >>pain again for awhile now....can anyone tell me if they know the REASON we >>have this? I see my urologist tomorrow (actually, my urologist's >>partner!), >> & I'd like to share some info with him. I haven't had a good week! Last >>night I fell (again!) due to NO balance, & tonight I'm plenty sore. > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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