Parents of adult children with OCD

August 15, 2000

In a message dated 8/14/00 5:58:37 PM, harkins@... writes:

<< I have emailed Jackie and we shall be working on the inclusion of parents

with adult children either on this list or a separate list.

I have asked Jackie for ideas and I am interested in input from all of our

members. I have told Jackie that I think inclusion of parents of adult

children with OCD would be beneficial to all our members, but I am open to

input on this subject. >>

I am the parent of an adult child with OCD who follows this list daily, and

only posts on it occassionally. My son with OCD, , is a 35 year old

attorney. He just recently quit his job as a public defender, is going to

school again (to pursue what he doesn't yet know), and living at home with me

and his step father. He was in therapy for 12 years and was not diagnosed

with OCD until he was hospitalized following a suicide attempt in June 1999.

I am a clinicial psychologist (therapist and researcher), and I found this

list three months ago, when I was desparately searching for some kind of

support for me and my husband after one of 's meltdowns. I was surfing

the net looking for help, I was frightened about quitting work, and I

knew from experience that I wasnt going to find much in the way of the help I

needed from the " professional " community. We were getting no support from his

therapist (since his hospitalization has been seeing a CBT therapist

who is savy with OCD and who I think has been very helpful to him) and not

quite enough from my own sources of support.

Knowing suffered from some kind of OCD years before his diagnosis (and

not being able to do or say anything because he was so hostile to me and was

always " trying to separate " , and staying away from me except in periods of

extreme depression which was his diagnosis), with one of my students (I teach

in a graduate school of clinical psychology) I had been doing empirical

research on OCD and guilt for several years. Despite all my training,

reading, research etc, I felt at a complete loss and riddled with horrible

guilt about 's illness. I felt really traumatized myself by his suicide

attempt, and hadn't completely recovered from it (and still haven't

actually). I was being bossed around by OCD (I learned that concept from

this list) and terrified that if I bossed back, might kill himself.

And has blamed me for years, saying that I was the cause of his

problems. (He still has something of that opinion). Finding this list has

been unbelievably helpful to me. I have learned more from reading the wisdom

and experience of the parents on this list, than from any other source of

information. From this list I have gained a new perspective, that put an

emotional context to my more academic understanding of the biological nature

of OCD. When my son had a meltdown directed at me earlier this summer, with

Kathy and the other parents on this list sitting on my shoulder, I " bossed

OCD back " just a little, instead of feeling overwhelmed with guilt. I got to

my computer as quickly as I could and posted on the list, and was encouraged

and supported. Things have actually been just a little better since then.

I continue to learn from this list daily. Just this morning I read Dana's

wonderful report of her and Ava's experience at the Conference in Chicago

(Ava often reminds me of as do many of your children, especially the

teen-agers), and something she spoke of struck me as important in living with

; the intense attachment of OCD children to their mothers is related to

OCD, a part of it. I have often wondered if my son's sensitivity in

childhood (and his biological father's rejection of him) made me be overly

involved with him, protective of him (though he says I was entirely

unprotective, and to be sure I wasnt such a great mother). When I read

Dana's comment it struck me that 's intense focus on me (no doubt

related to and taking the form of his intense attacking of me) might not be

related to something I " did " , but simply part of his OCD. (He didnt have

obvious OCD as a child, it developed probably in adolescence and was masked

by his drinking and drug use, and really showed up when he quit drinking at

age 19).

My point here, (and sorry to be so long-winded), is that despite the fact

that most of the parents are living with younger children with OCD, I learn

invaluable lessons from the posts on this list. Initially I didn't know if

it would work for me, to be following the stories of younger children and

their parents. But as it turns out, almost everything you all write about is

relevant to our situation in one way or another. I of course would love to

hear about the experiences of other parents with adult children with OCD

(and have benefited from some one to one correspondence with Jackie as well

as Kathy), but I would hate to loose the opportunity to learn from all of

you, should there be a separate list for us with adult children with OCD.

There is something of a special clarity to the posts on this list, perhaps

sometimes I think a starkness, having to do with the illness developing so

early, being diagnosed and recognized as a biological/neurological condition

with numerous emotional, cognitive and behavioral ramifications, and treated

directly without a lot of old Freudian-based ideas about inadequate

mothering/parenting. To restate it simply, as a mom with an adult OCD child

living at home, I gain great support and knowledge from hanging out here and

listening to the parents on this list. It may be that I contribute less

because I feel less knowledgeable about OCD and children and my immediate

worries, fears, and even panics about seem less relevant and realistic

than if he were much younger, nevertheless there is something to be said for

keeping us parents all together, no matter how old our children might be.

Thats my input on the subject, and I hope that parents of younger children

feel Ok about us older parents hanging around here and learning from their

experiences, and even jumping in when we are needing help and support.

Lynn

August 15, 2000

Hi Lynn,

I think that when we are meeting in person it is good to separate into our

children's age groups, as we did in Chicago, but I agree with you that we can

all learn from each other together here on the list. It's just too cumbersome

in person, too large a group; but here we can read posts at our leisure

(whatever leisure is these days!) and I think we should stay together. You

never know whose experience or situation will shed some insight on

your own, despite the different ages and circumstances.

That intensity thing was a real " click " moment for me too!

Dana in NC

August 16, 2000

In a message dated 8/15/00 9:35:43 AM Mountain Daylight Time, lynnoc@...

writes:

<< I hope that parents of younger children

feel Ok about us older parents hanging around here and learning from their

experiences, and even jumping in when we are needing help and support.

>>

Lynn, I used to be the parent of a very young child with OCD, now I am the

parent of a 12 yr. old with OCD, and some day I will be the parent of an

adult child with OCD... so everything is valuable to me, from the youngest

child to the oldest. Your input means a lot to me, and I would hate to see

the parents separated out into two lists (younger and older children). I

think it adds a lot that we stick together and share our resources and

strengths.

Jay in Colorado

August 16, 2000

Dear List Members,

I have really appreciated the input that you have shared with respect to

inclusion of parents of adult children with OCD. , Lynn, and Dana

have kindly shared their thoughts and I agree with their assessment of the

value that our community of parents experiences as we share about our

children regardless of their ages.

Take care.

Louis

>From: egroups

>Reply-egroups

>egroups

>Subject: Digest Number 613

>Date: 16 Aug 2000 07:17:29 -0000

>

>You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In

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>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>There are 19 messages in this issue.

>

>Topics in this digest:

>

> 1. conference

> From: Dana <clayvon@...>

> 2. Re: conference

> From: ANGELO5@...

> 3. RE: conference

> From: K & J <kjik@...>

> 4. OCF conference

> From: GPesses@...

> 5. Re: Parents of Adult Children with OCD

> From: lynnoc@...

> 6. Re: conference/anxiety

> From: Dana <clayvon@...>

> 7. RE: introduction

> From: j.monnens@...

> 8. Re: # 2 (my second response)OCF conference

> From: lynnoc@...

> 9. Re: Parents of Adult Children with OCD

> From: Dana <clayvon@...>

> 10. sorta funny

> From: Dana <clayvon@...>

> 11. Parents of adult 'children'

> From: " W. Birkhan " <wb4@...>

> 12. feeling cut off/computer problems

> From: ruth2b4@...

> 13. Re: Parents of adult 'children'

> From: " Bill & Vicki Stone " <bvstone@...>

> 14. Re: Parents of adult 'children'

> From: lynnoc@...

> 15. Re: OCF conference

> From: Jay7138658@...

> 16. Re: OCF conference

> From: " W. Birkhan " <wb4@...>

> 17. Re: OCF conference

> From: Jay7138658@...

> 18. Re: welcome back from conference

> From: Masoud & Lesli Molaei <desk@...>

> 19. Re: # 2 (my second response)OCF conference

> From: " Terry Migdal " <zmterry@...>

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 1

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:06:21 -0400

> From: Dana <clayvon@...>

>Subject: conference

>

>Hi everyone,

>

>I got back home Sunday afternoon (we've been gone for over a week) and

>I've been doing unpacking, laundry, bill paying etc. to get ready for

>the week to come. Ava starts school today. I took yesterday and today

>off from work and I'm so glad I did. Today I'll catch up on my

>gardening , go grocery shopping and run errands.

>

>Well this is what I have to say about the convention: start saving your

>money/vacation time for next years conference in Denver! It was so

>wonderful to meet so many people whose lives are affected by OCD. It

>was great meeting the people on this list. It was terrific that Ava got

>to be with other children with OCD. The atmosphere was warm and

>inviting and friendly. There was so much to do, the hard part was

>choosing which workshops to attend. The parent support groups on both

>nights were great.

>

>Ava made friends with 3 other girls, one of whom lives about a half hour

>from us. Another was ocd-free herself but has an ocd brother. The

>other has some hair pulling behaviors and I heard Ava talking to her

>about how she got started etc (Ava has some hair pulling behavior too).

>

>We got there Friday morning and Ava was in an oppositional mood,

>refusing to go to the first workshop for kids. I made her go. It was

>called " what about ocd sucks? " . Her answer was " my mom " . Charming. I

>registered for our room while she was there. Then I made her go to the

>next workshop too, an art one for kids with Dr. Chansky. While she was

>there I ran into some moms from this list and decided to change our room

>from the 5th to the 3rd floor, which is where they were and also where

>the teen hospitality room was. I had to decide whether it would be

>better to have Ava help me move our stuff, which could trigger a tantrum

>or move it myself and not even tell her I had made a change (she never

>saw the first room and they were identical). I enlisted her help and

>she used this opportunity to pitch a fit, screaming that the first room

>was better, she hated our new room, whyyyy can't we move back etc.. Mind

>you, she only saw the first room for about 3 seconds when I opened the

>door to hand her her suitcase.

>

>But a few minutes later when we went downstairs she found some candy at

>one of the tables and I said she could have some and so her mood

>improved. After the art workshop I let her go swimming. Later that

>night she met her new friends and began to have a good time.

>

>All of the workshops were good. I didn't learn any new specific thing

>but I did deepen my understanding of what ocd is and I feel more

>confident about discerning ocd behavior from typical adolescent stuff.

>So many of the moms in the support group spoke of their child's intense

>relationship with them and how exhausting it can be. I think it will

>help me to disengage from Ava's intensity towards me now that I see it

>more clearly as ocd.

>

>The art workshop turned out to be a good setting to see how Ava reacts

>to a stressful (for her) class setting. It was stressful for Ava for a

>few reasons, one was she didn't want to be there and the other was there

>was a child who was out of control, shouting, cussing, interrupting

>etc., which always makes Ava anxious. When his mother didn't stop him

>Ava decided to. She tried telling him to stop, explaining how

>disruptive it was, giving him advice on what to do when he felt like

>blurting out and finally she tried to get his mother to intervene. Ava

>told her that what he had was not just ocd. His mother said he had ADHD

>as well and Ava said no, it looks like Autism and he needs some help.

>Thanks Dr. Ava! I'm so glad I wasn't there I would have wanted to melt

>into the floor or evaporate at that point. Ava continued in her take

>charge mode and corrected the art therapist who made the mistake of

>describing some typical ocd worries like " maybe I'll get sick or maybe

>my parents will die or maybe I'm gay " . Ava said " Excuse me but the

>first 2 are tragedies, being gay is not and some of my relatives are gay

>and you should be more careful about offending people! " . She was quite

>pleased with herself.

>

>While this may seem precocious or even admirable, it is also an example

>of Ava's correcting, critical " just right " behavior. I was glad that

>Tamar got a chance to see Ava in action, what a boon when I need

>help/advice from her this year! Speaking of Tamar, what a

>compassionate, smart woman; we are truly lucky to have her advising this

>list.

>

>This is what Ava had to say about the conference (I copied this from the

>thank you letter I asked her to write to the ocfoundation, which gave us

>a scholarship to attend):

>

> > Thank you for giving us a scholarship for the conference. I loved

> > meeting new people and making some friends. We exchanged e-mail

> > addresses and everything. I liked staying at a nice hotel, even if the

> > food wasn't all that good and kinda expensive. Some of the workshops

> > were fun although the speakers sometimes talked too much. It would be

> > great if there were more fun things to do for kids and teens like games

> > and stuff. Overall, the OCD conference was really fun. Thanks!!!

> >

>I decided not to edit her " thanks but " attitude because I figured

>whoever gets it will understand...............

>

> On Saturday night there was a reception with food and a DJ playing

>music. At one point he played the " Electric Slide " and Ava got up and

>started doing it and tried to get others to join her. Most of the kids

>were too shy or didn't know the dance. I had taught it to Ava a few

>weeks ago. Ava being Ava, there was one step that she did different

>from me that she insisted was right because it made more sense to her,

>although it causes her to miss a beat. So when she got out on the floor

>Saturday night she did it her way. Then some woman came up to her and

>told her she was doing it wrong and she needed her help! Ava was so

>humiliated she stopped dancing. I danced and so did Anne in CT (we

>looked pretty good too!) but when it was done Ava said she wanted to

>leave, it was boring and stupid etc.. Her friends wanted to go swimming

>and she wouldn't go, insisting she wanted to just go back to the room,

>telling me it was because of some boy. I knew it was because the

>humiliation was causing a meltdown of sorts but she wouldn't admit it.

>I told her I wasn't ready to leave and to make the best of it, every

>moment of life was not about whether she was having fun or even

>comfortable, sometimes she had to just cope and it was someone else's

>turn to have fun - like mine.

>

>She got it together a bit, ate some more food, calmed down and stopped

>whining. We stayed about 20 minutes more and then we went to the mall

>across the street to shop a bit. We came back around 9:00 and I went to

>the support group and she went to find her friends. They were all

>hanging out, playing cards and stuff and were glad to see her. We got

>back together around 11:00 and went to bed. The next day she admitted

>to me that she had been humiliated at the dance and that was why she

>wanted to leave. We talked about how humiliation often triggers a

>downward spiral of feelings for her and how she could next time tell

>herself that what she was feeling wasn't fact, that feeling pass and

>that it was just the ocd trying to make more of being embarrassed than

>was real and true.

>

>So all in all it was a good trip. Staying with my parents the week

>before was difficult for me, my mom's ocd is sooo tedious to deal with.

>And my dad made so many derogatory comments about my weight gain that I

>wondered if there was such a thing as BDD by Proxy (ya know, like

>Munchaussens by Proxy). Jeesh. I also found out that my grandmother

>(mother's mother) suffered from depression and panic attacks, and that

>my (maternal also) uncle, his daughter and her son all have OCD! My

>father told me this, my mother is still in denial or is just too fearful

>to speak of it. I signed up for the genetic study at the conference!

>

>I'm so glad we went to the conference and I will plan on going next year

>too. I can't think of what else to add about it but if anyone has any

>specific questions feel free to ask and I'll try to describre what I

>learned.

>

>Dana in NC

>

>[This message contained attachments]

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 2

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:06:35 EDT

> From: ANGELO5@...

>Subject: Re: conference

>

>Hi Dana! This is Nikki! I have a question about Ava's correcting you! My 5

>yr

>old Kelsey who I am starting to think has ocd or gad not quite sure yet

>anyway she is doing the same thing. She is very much a perfectionist and

>corrects everything, hates to lose in games and trys to be the perfect

>child

>(literally since birth she was the perfect child) but now I really see

>whats

>going on. She is starting to withdraw from things that she loves like

>gymnastics (she is extremley good, but I think its the fear of making a

>mistake that is why she wants to quit) She started Kind yesterday and it

>was

>an awful experience she got up before everyone else and was completley

>ready

>with her bed made and everything before my alarm even went off. But this

>perfectionism back fired as it usually does, she had all that time to sit

>and

>think and worry she was so full of anxiety by the time we left that she was

>crying and doing deep breathing to help herself. She made it through the

>day

>but I know she wasnt happy because the school is in my backyard and I saw

>her

>on the playground she did not look happy at all. She said after school it

>was

>ok and then later even said she really liked school. Then last night at

>bedtime she said she was sick with a soar throat and stomach ache. She had

>this last week for 2days so I wanst quite sure if maybe it came back.. I

>gave

>her some advil and she seemed to sleep well, but she was up early again

>worrying and saying she didnt want to get the other kids sick (ocd maybe?)

>she told her dad she wasnt going to school as she was sick. Later I asked

>her

>if the advil helped and she said a little but she would really feel better

>if

>we played " Go fish " (she one both games last night) I told her no that she

>had to go get ready for school she then stormed off crying it was an awfull

>morning she did not eat or drink anything and was very upset when we got to

>school hanging on and crying, even asked me this morning if

>I

>thought Kelsey has ocd because shes scared to get everyong sick (doctor

>Tiff)

>but I truly am worried about her she picks her nails and has for about 2yrs

>she has stomach aches all the time and thinks she always has to be the best

>in the class (at moms day out or gymnastics, sunday school etc) Now this is

>very different from the way s started so Im not realy familiar with

>this side of the spectrum aTiff is more on the impulsivity side and this

>seems more on the Compulsivity side. Let me know what you think and if you

>sat in on the GAD talk if it sounds more like that. Thanks alot Nikki

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 3

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 07:39:56 -0700

> From: K & J <kjik@...>

>Subject: RE: conference

>

>Dana~

>

>I am happy you are both home safe and sound. Thank you for sharing about

>the conference, and Ava's experience there. I don't know much about OCD

>yet, our son was just diagnosed at age 2, but I think Ava sounds like such

>a

>leader! The fact that she got out there and danced and tried to include

>others is so admirable. As far as her " missing a beat, " who cares! Maybe

>everyone should do the slide Ava style....after all it " makes more sense "

>

>Her personality makes me laugh, I hope you are able to enjoy the humor in

>it

>in retrospect.

>

>Sincerely, Joy (CA)

>

>[This message contained attachments]

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 4

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:26:01 EDT

> From: GPesses@...

>Subject: OCF conference

>

>Dear all,

>

> Kathy and Jule should be checking in soon!

>

> The conference was stimulating and hopeful on so many levels. Just as

>this list has enabled all of us to not feel so alone as well as to share

>info, the conference was enpowering when you realize the bright, articulate

>people who have been touched by OCD and are working to find more effective

>treatments. Meeting experts, other parents as well as OCDers and being

>able

>to just let your hair down and really talk about your child was quite a

>heady

>experience.

>

> Yes, I did return feeling quite hopeful. There was a marvelous

>keynote

>presentation by Dr. (?) Rausch about the biochemistry of OCD.

>Pictures

>of MRI's of " normal " brains, were shown along with MRI's of OCDers. After

>CBT and meds, new MRI's were taken adn the OCD brain actually changed to

>look

>more like the normal brain. That means that our present therapy systme is

>definitely on the right track!

>

> Tamar Chansky, our list advisor, presented about Children and OCD.

>Her

>new book is marvelous and very upbeat as she explains the steps to take in

>helping a child, as well as the family, with OCD. She is so down to earth

>and so pro-family, it is impossible not to feel comfortable as well as more

>confident about the possibilities for our children.

>

> A workshop on the differences between OCD and panic disorder was

>fascinating. Of particluar interest was the role of meds in each disorder.

>Research is now finding that the panic disorder folks are actually better

>off

>taking an SSRI than one of the short acting anti anxiety as the anti

>anxiety

>tends to lead to a roller coaster experience and not a steady state of

>calm.

>

> Jenike was both informative and hilarious about Psychotropic

>medicines. He graciously answered all types of questions, while maintaiing

>his humor and committment to giving the most up to date info. most of his

>information has already been made available by our list and/or is found on

>the OCF site.

>

> At the reception Saturday night, our groupies got to have a photo op

>woth

>Dr. Jenike as well as Dr. Claiborn. Kathy and rpomise to place

>the pics on the web when they get them developed.

>

> The parenting support group was awesome! It was so successful that we

>continued it, unscheduled, the next night. We divided into the ages of our

>kids and talked about ourselves, our common concerns and shared our lives

>with others who truly have been there. As in any support group, there was

>folks who had been through the mill, as well as families who as recently as

>March had a child diagnosed with OCD. We laughed, shared coping skills and

>learned new strategies. Kathy's " Better living through pharmacy " was

>directly a result of our discussions on this list of how much we have all

>benefited from meds that help each of us cope.

>

> Perhaps the most thrilling aspect was just being with friends from the

>list. We hugged, kissed, talked till all hours and felt that kinship of

>sharing face to face. We dragged out pictures of children to show each

>other

>and quickly began talking about topics that were often personal and painful

>as well, as that trust had been in place through this list. Now when I

>talk

>to Kathy, or Jule or Jackie, or either Noelle, or ellen, or Anne or ,

>I

>have a visual image of each! I strongly encourage as many of you as can

>come

>next year to Denver to make the conference one of your top priorities.

>

> We thought constantly of all of you - reflecting on info we learned

>and

>how each of you would have reacted. you were missed.

>

> I am off to LA this Friday for a family wedding, but once I return, I

>plan to have my son scan some of the info for me so I can post a few things

>I

>learned.

>

> Take care!

>Gail in N'awlins

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 5

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:31:09 EDT

> From: lynnoc@...

>Subject: Re: Parents of Adult Children with OCD

>

>In a message dated 8/14/00 5:58:37 PM, harkins@... writes:

>

><< I have emailed Jackie and we shall be working on the inclusion of

>parents

>with adult children either on this list or a separate list.

>

>I have asked Jackie for ideas and I am interested in input from all of our

>members. I have told Jackie that I think inclusion of parents of adult

>children with OCD would be beneficial to all our members, but I am open to

>input on this subject. >>

>

>I am the parent of an adult child with OCD who follows this list daily, and

>only posts on it occassionally. My son with OCD, , is a 35 year old

>attorney. He just recently quit his job as a public defender, is going to

>school again (to pursue what he doesn't yet know), and living at home with

>me

>and his step father. He was in therapy for 12 years and was not diagnosed

>with OCD until he was hospitalized following a suicide attempt in June

>1999.

>I am a clinicial psychologist (therapist and researcher), and I found this

>list three months ago, when I was desparately searching for some kind of

>support for me and my husband after one of 's meltdowns. I was

>surfing

>the net looking for help, I was frightened about quitting work, and

>I

>knew from experience that I wasnt going to find much in the way of the help

>I

>needed from the " professional " community. We were getting no support from

>his

>therapist (since his hospitalization has been seeing a CBT therapist

>who is savy with OCD and who I think has been very helpful to him) and not

>quite enough from my own sources of support.

>

>Knowing suffered from some kind of OCD years before his diagnosis

>(and

>not being able to do or say anything because he was so hostile to me and

>was

>always " trying to separate " , and staying away from me except in periods of

>extreme depression which was his diagnosis), with one of my students (I

>teach

>in a graduate school of clinical psychology) I had been doing empirical

>research on OCD and guilt for several years. Despite all my training,

>reading, research etc, I felt at a complete loss and riddled with horrible

>guilt about 's illness. I felt really traumatized myself by his

>suicide

>attempt, and hadn't completely recovered from it (and still haven't

>actually). I was being bossed around by OCD (I learned that concept from

>this list) and terrified that if I bossed back, might kill himself.

>And has blamed me for years, saying that I was the cause of his

>problems. (He still has something of that opinion). Finding this list has

>been unbelievably helpful to me. I have learned more from reading the

>wisdom

>and experience of the parents on this list, than from any other source of

>information. From this list I have gained a new perspective, that put an

>emotional context to my more academic understanding of the biological

>nature

>of OCD. When my son had a meltdown directed at me earlier this summer,

>with

>Kathy and the other parents on this list sitting on my shoulder, I " bossed

>OCD back " just a little, instead of feeling overwhelmed with guilt. I got

>to

>my computer as quickly as I could and posted on the list, and was

>encouraged

>and supported. Things have actually been just a little better since then.

>

>I continue to learn from this list daily. Just this morning I read Dana's

>wonderful report of her and Ava's experience at the Conference in Chicago

>(Ava often reminds me of as do many of your children, especially the

>teen-agers), and something she spoke of struck me as important in living

>with

>; the intense attachment of OCD children to their mothers is related

>to

>OCD, a part of it. I have often wondered if my son's sensitivity in

>childhood (and his biological father's rejection of him) made me be overly

>involved with him, protective of him (though he says I was entirely

>unprotective, and to be sure I wasnt such a great mother). When I read

>Dana's comment it struck me that 's intense focus on me (no doubt

>related to and taking the form of his intense attacking of me) might not be

>related to something I " did " , but simply part of his OCD. (He didnt have

>obvious OCD as a child, it developed probably in adolescence and was masked

>by his drinking and drug use, and really showed up when he quit drinking at

>age 19).

>

>My point here, (and sorry to be so long-winded), is that despite the fact

>that most of the parents are living with younger children with OCD, I learn

>invaluable lessons from the posts on this list. Initially I didn't know if

>it would work for me, to be following the stories of younger children and

>their parents. But as it turns out, almost everything you all write about

>is

>relevant to our situation in one way or another. I of course would love to

>hear about the experiences of other parents with adult children with OCD

>(and have benefited from some one to one correspondence with Jackie as well

>as Kathy), but I would hate to loose the opportunity to learn from all of

>you, should there be a separate list for us with adult children with OCD.

>There is something of a special clarity to the posts on this list, perhaps

>sometimes I think a starkness, having to do with the illness developing so

>early, being diagnosed and recognized as a biological/neurological

>condition

>with numerous emotional, cognitive and behavioral ramifications, and

>treated

>directly without a lot of old Freudian-based ideas about inadequate

>mothering/parenting. To restate it simply, as a mom with an adult OCD

>child

>living at home, I gain great support and knowledge from hanging out here

>and

>listening to the parents on this list. It may be that I contribute less

>because I feel less knowledgeable about OCD and children and my immediate

>worries, fears, and even panics about seem less relevant and

>realistic

>than if he were much younger, nevertheless there is something to be said

>for

>keeping us parents all together, no matter how old our children might be.

>Thats my input on the subject, and I hope that parents of younger children

>feel Ok about us older parents hanging around here and learning from their

>experiences, and even jumping in when we are needing help and support.

>

>Lynn

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 6

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:41:44 -0400

> From: Dana <clayvon@...>

>Subject: Re: conference/anxiety

>

>Hi Nikki,

>

>Gee, this is a tough one. Being afraid you'll make others sick is a common

>OCD worry/obssession. To distinguish this from being thoughtful of others

>or school avoidance you probably need to ask more questions, like " how

>would you make other's sick? " and " what would happen if someone else got

>sick? " . The more not quite grounded in reality the answers are the more

>likely it is an ocd issue.

>

>I went to one GAD workshop and I'm not sure I understood it all but I think

>the gist of the difference between OCD and GAD has to do with the obsessive

>nature of the worry thoughts (does the worry move around to different

>topics or stay stuck on one) and whether rituals (mental or physical) are

>used to relieve the tension (temporarily of course!).

>

>I see Ava's correcting me behavior as a " just so " behavior and also

>sometimes reassurance seeking, as it takes my attention away from what I'm

>doing if she can figure out ways to interrupt me and get my focus back on

>her. Ava used to have more perfectionism, although it was specific rather

>than generalized (i.e.., her hair had to be perfect) but that has

>dissipated, perhaps due to medication and maybe because I never played into

>it - I never

>fixed her hair and I set time limits for her trying to fix it.

>

>I hope this is helpful.

>

>Dana in NC

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 7

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:52:42 -0400

> From: j.monnens@...

>Subject: RE: introduction

>

>:

>

>I empathize with you and your situation with the hamster. A book that your

>boys

>may find helpful is The 10th Good Thing About Barney, about a little boy

>whose

>cat dies. While it is unlikely to help the guilt your son feels, it is

>wonderful at describing how this little boy comes to terms with the death

>of a

>beloved pet.

>

>Jule in Cleveland

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 8

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:15:18 EDT

> From: lynnoc@...

>Subject: Re: # 2 (my second response)OCF conference

>

>In a message dated 8/14/00 4:24:56 PM, wb4@... writes:

>

><< i will mention briefly that a group that is definatly in need of

>attention

>is the parents of adult children with OCD. These 'children' present many

>unique difficulties. It became obvious to all those in attendance that, as

>parents, they need to make some changes themselves and that after that is

>done, they will be stronger in dealing with their children. Among the

>difficulties these parents face is the stigma of mental illness, the stigma

>of " failing as a parent " , the worry of not being 'around' when their

>adult/child needs them, and how to support each other. We promised to help

>them address this and Jackie has a list of people waiting for the GO signal

>- Louis - we volunteered you to help out!!!!

> >>

>

>, I read your post after I read and responded to Louis' response to

>it.

>This is a good list of " special needs " that we adult parents have, though

>as

>I said in my first response on the topic, we also need the special clarity

>tha

>t I think may come from dealing with young children with OCD and an earlier

>diagnosis. From my perspective, it might be useful to try at least at

>first,

>having a more inclusive list, with those of us with adult children coming

>on

>here and posting more often.

>

>I still hesitate, partly because of 's age, and partly I guess

>because

>of the " stigma " of which you speak. Let me give you an example. Last

>weekend

>my husband went with me on Saturday to my office (the office where I am

>primarily a teacher/researcher, not my therapy office) and hung out reading

>while I was working. We left the house early and was still asleep,

>though he is usually up early in the morning. Whenever he does anything

> " different " I worry, is he depressed, is he going to get suicidal. (I never

>can tell if my worrying is some minor form of OCD in me, or if it is me

>picking up on subtle cues from . right before his suicide attempt

>last

>year I was worried sick, and the professionals treating him told me I was

>being excessively worried; they were wrong). I muttered something to my

>husband after we left the house. We stayed at my school office late. At

>about

>8:30 my husband said it was time to go, he was getting worried (and this is

>rare for him, he has no OCD like traits whatsoever) about not making some

>appearance at home for such a long time; while is of course off on

>his

>own all the time, he's an adult and we don't know or ask when he's going to

>be at home or out, nevertheless we both know he has a limited social circle

>and sometimes hangs out with us, and particularly my husband, as social

>support, someone to hang out with on friday or saturday night watching

>rented

>videos. When we are going somewhere we often invite him to come with us if

>he

>feels like it; usually he declines because he is doing something with

>friends

>or whatever, but sometimes he accepts and we both think he is actually

>grateful that we are there if needed. anyway, we came home and was

>out for the evening, and had sweetly left us a cheerful and very funny

>short

>note about something he had done with a friend the night before (he has a

>great sense of humor). I thought of coming on here and posting about my

>continuing proneness to worry and how this is affecting our lives. But I

>felt sort of ridiculous, is an adult who has been working and taking

>care of himself to some extent for years. He doesn't require the kind of

> " care " that parents on this list really have to provide for their younger

>children. In reading your note right now, it strikes me that if more

>parents

>of adult children were posting on this list, I might feel less " ridiculous "

>in discussing the problems we have, trying to balance what is a reasonable

>and real need for support from a parent for an adult suffering from a

>mental

>disorder, and what is me being neurotic (or OCDish). Or what is OCD and

>what

>isn't, in an adult child with OCD and their parents.

>

>I really am being long-winded today, inspired indirectly by the conference

>I

>guess. Anyway, I wanted to add my further thoughts about the list, after

>reading your note.

>

>Lynn

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 9

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:19:27 -0400

> From: Dana <clayvon@...>

>Subject: Re: Parents of Adult Children with OCD

>

>Hi Lynn,

>

>I think that when we are meeting in person it is good to separate into our

>children's age groups, as we did in Chicago, but I agree with you that we

>can all learn from each other together here on the list. It's just too

>cumbersome in person, too large a group; but here we can read posts at our

>leisure (whatever leisure is these days!) and I think we should stay

>together. You never know whose experience or situation will shed some

>insight on

>your own, despite the different ages and circumstances.

>That intensity thing was a real " click " moment for me too!

>

>Dana in NC

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 10

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:30:01 -0400

> From: Dana <clayvon@...>

>Subject: sorta funny

>

>I forgot to tell about this. They made a list of goals in one of the

>workshops for kids and then they hung the list in the lobby. Ava's goal

>was " I will keep my eyes open and breathe when I cross a busy street " .

>Yikes! I didn't know if she was being funny, like she knew it was going

>to be posted where I could see it and freak out, or whether she really

>closes her eyes when she crosses busy streets.

>

>So I asked her. She was horrified that they hung the list up and got

>her goal wrong. She said " they make it sound like I close my eyes and

>don't breathe for no reason! What kind of an idiot would do that!

>That's crazy! " . After ranting for awhile she stopped and said " wait a

>minute, maybe they were just confused about what I meant, maybe I didn't

>explain it well enough. I close my eyes and hold my breath so the car

>exhaust doesn't get in me through my eyes or my mouth. " She then added

>that she has no intention of stopping this, she just said she would so

>she'd have a goal to contribute.

>

>Well I'm glad THAT was cleared up. I'd hate to think she was

>endangering her life on busy streets for NO GOOD REASON.

>

>Dana in NC

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 11

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:20:51 EDT

> From: " W. Birkhan " <wb4@...>

>Subject: Parents of adult 'children'

>

>Lynn,

>

> You were very much in our thoughts this weekend! When the groups were

>divided and 40% were in the adult children catagorie, you can imagine our

>surprise. Interestingly, there was not one parent of a preschooler with ocd

>and I only met one other mom with ocd who had kids with ocd. Maybe next

>year we will have a muli-generational group, too!

>

> You, of course, are right about the like issues of living with someone

>with ocd, regardless of the age. We handed out close to 200 flyers on

>, and suggested to everyone that they connect with us, read

>the resources and get used to what a list means, and when its possible,

>Louis (?) may be able to help make a sub-list. It might even help if we

>considered our childrens' age by the year since diagnosis - doesnt that put

>a different perspective on everything?!!

>

> Lynn, reading your reaction to s change in routine, I would say

>it's

>based on your past experience of being dismissed and therefore having

>

>do exactly what you were predicting! Yes, you carry guilt, but I would look

>at it from an experience prespective. You learned to follow your own

>instinct - which is something I definatly advocate for parents learning!

>

> We all have fears regarding our kids. I worry that tom will try a risk

>taking behaviour when out with friends - just for the thrill; I worry that

>adi will be far away from me and have a meltdown; that ziv will be so sad

>that the teachers dismiss her rather than contact me... but I have to let

>the kids out of my sight. Tom used to taunt me about not being at home like

>his friends mom's - totally forgetting that I was at home until ziv started

>school! I was working 4 jobs to pay for everyone's meds - and going to

>university full time! Of course i felt guilty!! Yigal became a stay at home

>dad for 3 years while he waited for his immigration papers, developed a

>gardening product and was on suicide watch for 2/3 kids.

>

> For to go out with you is a compliment - a big one! He has a

>social

>group, no matter how small, and that also is due to your encouragement. Why

>not share with your anxiety, and explain where it comes from?

> The workshop on " Panic Disordes and OCD " was very good. Also the

>diagnosis

>of G.A.D. may be interesting for you to look into for yourself. Gail, I

>think, mentioned that SSRI's worked in helping people deal with their

>stress

>related anxieties. Have you been able to find a therapist for yourself?

>Because of your position, I imagine its really tough?!

>

> Long winded posts are always allowed!! Keep up your good work, Lynn.

>Standing up for yourself and not giving in to OCD is a big accomplishment.

>

>Take care, wendy, in canada

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 12

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:45:53 -0000

> From: ruth2b4@...

>Subject: feeling cut off/computer problems

>

>I am at the library using their connection. Our computer is not

>functioning. I was frustrated by my sons blatent diregard of my

>imposed NO Computer priviledge for him that I finaaly turned the poer

>off to the computer at the electric box. Well guess who is

>responsible for damaging the computer. anyway until I get things

>back in order...I hope it is not a virus....I will be reading the

>posts from the library. THANK YOU for shring the conf. overviews...it

>sparks an " I am not alone " feeling. On a side note we went to see a

>NEW psycologist yesterday...this was the first time we left an office

>with my son NOT having a FIT about going home right away. ( and

>exploding and tatruming all the way home) So is this good news? I

>certainly hope so. This person is far away from our home ( i couldn't

>find anyone that said the right things when interviewed that ALSO was

>our insurance provider) Some of you may remember this is a court

>ordered diversion for my son after assaulting his father. ( who is

>contaminated)I certainly hope this is the " right " one and that our

>son has the strenght to want to get somewhere out of the claws of

>OCD, ODD ,Depression and Tourettes, not necessarily in that

>order...But who knows ;)OK... I alson wanted to THANK LOUIS for

>starting this list and for all the members and moderators. THANK YOU

>THANK YOU. Vivian in wa.st.

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 13

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:01:58 -0500

> From: " Bill & Vicki Stone " <bvstone@...>

>Subject: Re: Parents of adult 'children'

>

>Hi! What is G.A.D? I've never heard this term before.

>

>Vicki

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 14

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:14:27 EDT

> From: lynnoc@...

>Subject: Re: Parents of adult 'children'

>

>Hi Vicki:

>

>GAD is generalized anxiety disorder. Its one of the anxiety disorders;

>OCD,

>specific phobias, social phobias, post traumatic stress disorder, panic

>disorders, agoraphobia, panic disorder and anxiety disorder NOS (not

>otherwise specified, meaning it doesn't exactly meet the criteria for any

>of

>them), are the others.

>

>Lynn

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 15

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:20:15 EDT

> From: Jay7138658@...

>Subject: Re: OCF conference

>

>In a message dated 8/15/00 9:31:50 AM Mountain Daylight Time,

>GPesses@...

>writes:

>

><< I strongly encourage as many of you as can come

> next year to Denver to make the conference one of your top priorities.

> >>

>I strongly encourage you to come to Denver too. I am here.

>Jay

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 16

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:44:40 EDT

> From: " W. Birkhan " <wb4@...>

>Subject: Re: OCF conference

>

> >I strongly encourage you to come to Denver too. I am here.

> >Jay

>

>Jay,

> I understand that Denver was chosen due to its access to professionals

>and

>to students interested in ocd and in cbt. This is a very good sign!

>

> I guess I'll be in Denver next July! now, if only I could find it on a

>map.....

>

>) wendy, in canada!

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 17

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:11:26 EDT

> From: Jay7138658@...

>Subject: Re: OCF conference

>

>In a message dated 8/15/00 5:46:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time,

>wb4@...

>writes:

>

><<

> I guess I'll be in Denver next July! now, if only I could find it on a

> map.....

>

> ) wendy, in canada!

> _ >>

>

>,

>Go south, then turn west and head for the Rocky Mountains

>Jay

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 18

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:49:06 -0700

> From: Masoud & Lesli Molaei <desk@...>

>Subject: Re: welcome back from conference

>

>Dear All,

>

>Welcome back to all conference attendees. You were very much missed!

>Gail, you've written beautifully about the conference, and I'm so

>thrilled to hear of our list's strong presence there. Anne's jewelry

>sounds terrific and I hope I can still get some!

>

>While you were out gallivanting (and, it seems, eating your way!) around

>Chicago, we were having a week of OCD crisis. andra crashed and

>burned pretty spectacularly. We had days of hours of hand washing

>accompanied by screams and tears of frustration. (Now that andra's

>getting older, she's showing the more " classic, " OCD symptoms.)

>

>We had an emergency meeting with her meds doctor on Saturday, and

>finally got her Prozac dose into the anti-obessional range of 60 mg. He

>has added Buspar to her regimen, as well, but we haven't started it

>yet. Giving her a meds " cocktail, " scares me, I admit.

>

>Sunday was her 7th birthday party, scheduled months ago to take place

>pool side at our health club. Twelve children were invited. Somehow,

>we made it through, and it all went remarkably well, with the exception

>of andra compulsively smelling her hands every time she was out of

>the water. (Being in the water seems to be like an OCD vacation - she

>swims like a little fish.)

>

>Her therapy situation is another story - I'll share that later, as this

>is getting so long.

>

>I'll end with some good news: Motivated by her desire to be rid of the

>awful tasting liquid Prozac, andra has learned to swallow pills. We

>practiced with mini M & M's and it only took her about five minutes to

>learn. Thanks to Kathy R. for encouraging me to taste the liquid Prozac

>- YUCK!

>

>Denver next year - yippee!! Colorado's my home state, with many friends

>and family still there. We will definitely be there.

>

>Take care,

>Lesli

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>Message: 19

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:50:55 -0700

> From: " Terry Migdal " <zmterry@...>

>Subject: Re: # 2 (my second response)OCF conference

>

>I have a 9 year old child with OCD but I have to tell you that I worry

>about the future for him. I would be interested in a group for parents

>with adult OCD children to see how they're handling it.

>Terry

> Re: # 2 (my second response) OCF conference

>

> In a message dated 8/14/00 4:24:56 PM, wb4@... writes:

>

> << i will mention briefly that a group that is definatly in need of

> attention

> is the parents of adult children with OCD. These 'children' present

>many

> unique difficulties. It became obvious to all those in attendance

>that, as

> parents, they need to make some changes themselves and that after that

>is

> done, they will be stronger in dealing with their children. Among the

> difficulties these parents face is the stigma of mental illness, the

>stigma

> of " failing as a parent " , the worry of not being 'around' when their

> adult/child needs them, and how to support each other. We promised to

>help

> them address this and Jackie has a list of people waiting for the GO

>signal

> - Louis - we volunteered you to help out!!!!

> >>

>

> , I read your post after I read and responded to Louis' response

>to it.

> This is a good list of " special needs " that we adult parents have,

>though as

> I said in my first response on the topic, we also need the special

>clarity tha

> t I think may come from dealing with young children with OCD and an

>earlier

> diagnosis. From my perspective, it might be useful to try at least at

>first,

> having a more inclusive list, with those of us with adult children

>coming on

> here and posting more often.

>

> I still hesitate, partly because of 's age, and partly I guess

>because

> of the " stigma " of which you speak. Let me give you an example. Last

>weekend

> my husband went with me on Saturday to my office (the office where I

>am

> primarily a teacher/researcher, not my therapy office) and hung out

>reading

> while I was working. We left the house early and was still

>asleep,

> though he is usually up early in the morning. Whenever he does

>anything

> " different " I worry, is he depressed, is he going to get suicidal. (I

>never

> can tell if my worrying is some minor form of OCD in me, or if it is

>me

> picking up on subtle cues from . right before his suicide

>attempt last

> year I was worried sick, and the professionals treating him told me I

>was

> being excessively worried; they were wrong). I muttered something to

>my

> husband after we left the house. We stayed at my school office late.

>At about

> 8:30 my husband said it was time to go, he was getting worried (and

>this is

> rare for him, he has no OCD like traits whatsoever) about not making

>some

> appearance at home for such a long time; while is of course off

>on his

> own all the time, he's an adult and we don't know or ask when he's

>going to

> be at home or out, nevertheless we both know he has a limited social

>circle

> and sometimes hangs out with us, and particularly my husband, as

>social

> support, someone to hang out with on friday or saturday night watching

>rented

> videos. When we are going somewhere we often invite him to come with

>us if he

> feels like it; usually he declines because he is doing something with

>friends

> or whatever, but sometimes he accepts and we both think he is actually

> grateful that we are there if needed. anyway, we came home and

>was

> out for the evening, and had sweetly left us a cheerful and very funny

>short

> note about something he had done with a friend the night before (he

>has a

> great sense of humor). I thought of coming on here and posting about

>my

> continuing proneness to worry and how this is affecting our lives.

>But I

> felt sort of ridiculous, is an adult who has been working and

>taking

> care of himself to some extent for years. He doesn't require the kind

>of

> " care " that parents on this list really have to provide for their

>younger

> children. In reading your note right now, it strikes me that if more

>parents

> of adult children were posting on this list, I might feel less

> " ridiculous "

> in discussing the problems we have, trying to balance what is a

>reasonable

> and real need for support from a parent for an adult suffering from a

>mental

> disorder, and what is me being neurotic (or OCDish). Or what is OCD

>and what

> isn't, in an adult child with OCD and their parents.

>

> I really am being long-winded today, inspired indirectly by the

>conference I

> guess. Anyway, I wanted to add my further thoughts about the list,

>after

> reading your note.

>

> Lynn

>

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... .

>In the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. The

>Archives, Files, and Features List for the may be

>accessed by going to , enter your email address and

>password, then point and click. Subscription issues, problems, or

>suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at

>harkins@... .

>

>[This message contained attachments]

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

August 16, 2000

In a message dated 8/16/00 9:30:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Jay7138658@... writes:

<< he parents separated out into two lists (younger and older children). I

think it adds a lot that we stick together and share our resources and

strengths.

Jay in Colorado >>

Jay,

My feelings exactly.

Noelle

August 16, 2000

Hi Jay,

After I posted this morning concerning inclusion of the parents of adult children I noticed that your post had arrived immediately afterwards. I appreciate your perspective and I agree that inclusion will help give us all a trued view of the chronology of OCD.

BTW I'm sorry about including the entire digest for 15 August when I posted; I did not intend to do that.

Take care.

Louis

harkins@...

Re: Parents of Adult Children with OCD

In a message dated 8/15/00 9:35:43 AM Mountain Daylight Time, lynnoc@... writes:<< I hope that parents of younger children feel Ok about us older parents hanging around here and learning from their experiences, and even jumping in when we are needing help and support. >>Lynn, I used to be the parent of a very young child with OCD, now I am the parent of a 12 yr. old with OCD, and some day I will be the parent of an adult child with OCD... so everything is valuable to me, from the youngest child to the oldest. Your input means a lot to me, and I would hate to see the parents separated out into two lists (younger and older children). I think it adds a lot that we stick together and share our resources and strengths.Jay in ColoradoYou may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. The Archives, Files, and Features List for the may be accessed by going to , enter your email address and password, then point and click. Subscription issues, problems, or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at harkins@... .

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