alcoholism

[Guest guest]

Alcohol has yeast, & sugar in it, Mogdrmom

[Guest guest]

Hi Criss! Geoff Crenshaw here.

> Have to disagree with you on this one.

That's cool. So we stand on opposite sides of the aisle -- mostly ('till

the end of this post, anyway.)

> Message: 10

> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 05:11:51 -0000

> From: crissj76@...

> Subject: Re: Alcoholism WAS: scleroderma

>

> Geoff,

>

> Have to disagree with you on this one. Alcoholism IS a disease. I am

> not saying that everyone who drinks too much is an alcoholic nor am I

> saying that in their case it is a disease. But autopsies on the

> brains of alcoholics have shown that in the alcoholic, the alcohol is

> metabolized differently than in " social drinkers " and that it actually

> creates in them the same chemical found in heroin users that causes

Not quite. The damage and effects are similar - but the chemistry is

very different.

> them to be addicted. I'm sorry I can't be more specific but my memory

Actually, in Native Americans and some people not of Native American

extraction, there are specific chemicals missing in the body. The

absence of these chemicals prevents the break down of alcohol to sugar

and water, etc. Because the alcohol is not broken down properly before

getting to the brain, the brain gets 'alcohol' vs heavy doses of

glucose. The results can be quite akin to ethanol poisoning.

However...

No metabolic issue exists if that drink isn't taken.

And therein lies the rub.

Unlike influenza, etc., wherein the victim has little or no control

against exposure, exposure to alcohol via ingestion is a purely

voluntary and intentional act. Save the odd case of having booze poured

down one's gullet by force, alcohol ingestion still rests on the power

of choice.

Sort of

(below)

> crutch and a choice but for others it is a chemical inbalance in their

> bodies that they have no more control over than they can control the

> color of their eyes. It is no different than saying that all

Except - the chemical imbalance does not occur without the voluntary and

intentional act of courting it.

This is not to infer that all people are able to control themselves in

all circumstances - obviously that is not correct. The fact of life is

that NO human is able to control themselves under ALL circumstances.

Everyone has their weaknesses, even Poppins! (Who, as we all know,

is practically perfect in every way.)

And thus the rub... at what point does 'self-control' breach personal

responsibility and become a 'disease.' I happen to be in the camp that

says, 'at no point.' I conclude that you are in the opposite camp. We

would hang a jury.

The question then is, which approach will be of aid to the poster? I

don't know.

> overweight people are overweight because they can't contol their diet.

> Just as there are different reasons for weight (drugs, thyroid,

> overeating, etc.) there are also different reasons for excessive

Well... there is the basic fact of chemistry: more calories in than

calories burned = weight gain and for well over 80% it is that simple.

(But some bodies are much more efficient at storing fats, and running at

a low metabolic rate, than others. Witness the Pima Indians.)

> drinking. And one of those reasons, this error in metabolism, which is

> thought to be heriditary, is in my definition, a disease.

And there we differ. I do not see an inherited characteristic as a

disease. Were it so, one born with a 6th finger would be 'diseased,' as

would one born with a missing toe, one brown eye and one blue, etc.

My understanding of disease is:

An invasive infectious or degenerative process that

supercedes the normal healthy state of an individual,

notwithstanding the natural changes associated with

age, the prevention of which the individual has no

realistic control over under the normal and routine

circumstances of life.

Flues, viruses, etc., all fall quite neatly within that definition, even

intentionally injected experimentation in the lab falls within that

under the exception of 'normal and routine.'

Alcoholism, drug addiction and other such human maladies are clearly

instituted, courted, engaged and consumated by the intentional act of

the perpetraitor/victim. That the intent is in response to some

emotional stimuli, or that it is understandable, or regrettable does not

alter that particular view. So there we differ, which is fine.

By the end of this you will see we are not that far apart - it is the

" label " over which most of our disagreement stems.

> It's interesting too that every alcoholic that I've known has had a

> sweet tooth. If you've ever been to an AA meeting, I swear that they

> must go through 5 lbs of sugar each meeting for the coffee. My

> husband died of pancreatic cancer in 1989. I'm sure that it was all

> about the chemical imbalance that caused his drinking, even though he

> had been sober and actively participating in AA for 7 years. His

> sugar cravings never diminished.

That's because, in it's most basic physical form, alcoholism could more

properly be termed sugar-addiction. If one were to look for a physical

manifestation the closest one would get is " cravings. " " Cravings " is a

much more accurate label than " disease. " You will find that not only are

alcoholics plagued by a sweet tooth, but many also crave table salt. Why

table salt? Because table salt contains ---> sugar.

Now indeed, cravings can and do drive people beyond their abilities of

self-control, like the pregnant woman who goes out to her yard and eats

dirt -- a need for certain elements her diet is lacking, stroked to a

boiling point by the baby growing inside her.

When cravings result in chemical imbalances such that the body is unable

to function without the initial stimulus, you get addiction. Heroin is a

very good example. A heroin user after a short time, no longer pursues

heroin to get 'high' but simply to prevent being 'sick.' Once that point

is reached, that user is by definition and 'addict.' Alcoholics often

find themselves in the very same fix, and thus the classic alcoholic

withdrawal: The DT's.

But... and this is VERY important, once the DT's are past, then the

imbalance leading to *sickness* without renewal of the aggravating

chemical is no longer an issue. IOW (in other words) they no longer HAVE

to take heroin -- or alcohol -- to stay well.

The " craving " has not left, but the physical " need " is gone.

At that point, " falling off the wagon " is once again under the strict,

total and complete purview of " choice. "

I am much closer aligned with you along the " cravings " label - and this

does address the chemical imbalance that so many alcoholics often suffer

even after getting off of alcohol. But insurance-compensated treatment

for " cravings " does not exist. The cravings are also much more difficult

to deal with - in fact they are virtually impossible to deal with

Allopathically.

But they are handled quite nicely Homeopathically.

However, Allopathy can claim a measure of success with " disease, " and

thus the label. And there again lies one of the dirty little secrets of

the business of health care since before the 1800's. The label

" disease, " I maintain, is yet another Allopathic marketing maneuver -

chiefly fostered by the Americans AMA. It does little or nothing to aid

the alcoholic, but it does line the pocket of those who elect to engage

in that practice.

My hope for the future is that Homeopathy continues coming out of the

closet, that the AMA loses its strangle-hold on health care and that we

are all able to enjoy the best of Allopathy, Homeopathy and the various

other medical arts in combination.

Well, OK - that ain't happenin' anytime soon. So how does the poor woman

whose husband is alcoholic and has SD cope with, and help, her mate?

We are, after all, interested in rending support much more than debate

or lively exchange.

Regards, -----------------------

Geoff ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

How can you have hope?

Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

http://www.healingyou.org/ Nonprofit: Herbs, Homeopathics & supp's.

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[Guest guest]

> Message: 25

> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:07:32 -0500

> From: fady assaad <fadya@...>

> Subject: Re: Re: Alcoholism WAS: scleroderma

>

> I think you are ALL right. Geoff is correct when he says we choose

our

> behaviors, but there are definitely people more disposed to these

> cravings. A great many of these people have yeast situations and

those

The real rub comes when the cravings are beyond the individual's

*current ability* to control, be it due to lack of training & education,

lack of courage, inappropriate or immature dependencies, or whatever.

The crux of the label, however, is that a 'disease' carries no

'responsibility,' either societally or legally. Society will eventually

embrace the moniker first (witness the debate amongst our small group

here,) followed in due course by the judiciary.

Therein lies the true danger of the label: " Disease. "

Yet, is there a better one? How does one " label " cravings and still

obtain or promote appropriate counseling, education, and/or treatment?

Regards, -----------------------

Geoff ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

How can you have hope?

Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

http://www.healingyou.org/ Nonprofit: Herbs, Homeopathics & supp's.

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money & travel!

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[Guest guest]

> Hi Criss! Geoff Crenshaw here.

>

<snip> But autopsies on the

> > brains of alcoholics have shown that in the alcoholic, the alcohol

is

> > metabolized differently than in " social drinkers " and that it

actually

> > creates in them the same chemical found in heroin users that

causes

>

> Not quite. The damage and effects are similar - but the chemistry is

> very different.

NO! It was the EXACT same chemical. That was the surprising finding

of the study and why it was so memorable (to me). The same

chemical/substance that makes heroin so addictive was also found in

alcoholics. So yes, taking that first drink is a choice, but after

that first drink, the addiction grows and is in control. So maybe the

word addiction is better than the word disease. But I still think

there is nothing wrong with calling something that causes

problems/disharmony in the body and/or mind a DIS EASE, a lot broader

definition than yours.

<snip>

> Except - the chemical imbalance does not occur without the voluntary

<snip>

> And thus the rub... at what point does 'self-control' breach

personal

> responsibility and become a 'disease.' I happen to be in the camp

that

> says, 'at no point.' I conclude that you are in the opposite camp.

<snip>

> The question then is, which approach will be of aid to the poster?

Which brings me to the point that I was going to make in my original

post but never got around to! The reason I posted this to the group

rather than argue it with you privately is because of the perception

that the alcoholic lacks self-control or discipline - that they can

stop drinking " if they wanted to " . An addiction is not that easy to

break. I know because it took me 4 tries over 2 years to quit smoking

and that is not as insidious an addiction as alcohol. The two

addictions are similar in some ways: there is a physical/chemical

addiction, there is habit, and there is social factor. They differ in

one major way: the psychological. You can break the physical

addiction in a couple of days with smoking. I'm not sure of the time

it takes for alcohol. But you still have to deal with the habit, and

psychological and social factors. If you don't, you will not succeed.

<snip>

> The " craving " has not left, but the physical " need " is gone.

> At that point, " falling off the wagon " is once again under the

strict,

> total and complete purview of " choice. "

Cravings and physical addictions are not equal and cravings are not

all that is left after the physical addiction is broken. Cravings do

not encompass your whole life, which an alcohol addiction does. There

are many issues here which I won't go into because that's not the

purpose of the group, but keep in mind that it is not a simple matter

of choice. There are other factors involved.

<snip> Well, OK - that ain't happenin' anytime soon. So how does the

poor

woman

> whose husband is alcoholic and has SD cope with, and help, her mate?

> We are, after all, interested in rending support much more than

debate

> or lively exchange.

Again - the whole point of me writing to the group was that the wife

may not be able to help this man. The biggest part of breaking an

addiction is for the addict to admit that it is a problem and want to

do something about it. I think it was Sherry that made the excellent

suggestion to contact AlAnon, which is the support group for memebers

of the family of alcoholics. Interventions work sometimes, but again,

if the alcoholic is not ready to face the problem and get help....

And the wife has to be able to stick to her guns. If that means

allowing her husband to carry on in his slow suicide, as hard as that

is to watch, she has to do it. Because if she doesn't, and tries to

" fix " him again, she is only allowing him to continue in his routine.

That is why a group like AlAnon is so important. You can't change

the alcoholic but you can change your own actions/perceptions and

AlAnon can offer her the support of people who have " been there, done

that " .

We do agree on the biggest issue. The AP probably won't be of much

benefit without addressing the alcohol issue. We're trying to boost

the health of the whole system and alcohol nullifies most antibiotics,

feeds yeast, and stresses the liver - in direct opposition to the AP.

Criss

[Guest guest]

Geoff,

The biggest problem I can see with the word disease is that it takes the

responsibility away from the user. It becomes something that is happening to

them instead of something they are perpetuating themselves. I won't lie and

say that even though I have compassion for these people it doesn't frustrate

me to no end that many of them are well enough and functioning even with

their self abuse and I am sick.

I would give anything just to be well again and some people have it all and

just throw it away. BTW, same goes for healthy grumpy people.

Your right disease is not the right word at all. Any Suggestions?

Lee-Anne

Geoff Crenshaw wrote:

> > Message: 25

> > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:07:32 -0500

> > From: fady assaad <fadya@...>

> > Subject: Re: Re: Alcoholism WAS: scleroderma

> >

> > I think you are ALL right. Geoff is correct when he says we choose

> our

> > behaviors, but there are definitely people more disposed to these

> > cravings. A great many of these people have yeast situations and

> those

>

> The real rub comes when the cravings are beyond the individual's

> *current ability* to control, be it due to lack of training & education,

> lack of courage, inappropriate or immature dependencies, or whatever.

> The crux of the label, however, is that a 'disease' carries no

> 'responsibility,' either societally or legally. Society will eventually

> embrace the moniker first (witness the debate amongst our small group

> here,) followed in due course by the judiciary.

>

> Therein lies the true danger of the label: " Disease. "

>

> Yet, is there a better one? How does one " label " cravings and still

> obtain or promote appropriate counseling, education, and/or treatment?

>

> Regards, -----------------------

> Geoff ** Usual Disclaimers **

> -----------------------

> How can you have hope?

> Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

> EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

>

> http://www.healingyou.org/ Nonprofit: Herbs, Homeopathics & supp's.

> http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money & travel!

> http://www.800-800-cruise.com/ Over a MILLION travel deals!

>

>

> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think I am missing something or misunderstanding, which happens

regularly :-). The majority of us on this list have a disease. Are you

saying we don't have any responsibility? Do you know that there are

professional people in a variety of disciplines who believe that people with

RA have brought it on themselves? That means that some people would have

the same contempt for us as that exhibited toward people who are addicted to

any substance.

> Geoff,

> The biggest problem I can see with the word disease is that it takes the

> responsibility away from the user. It becomes something that is happening

to

> them instead of something they are perpetuating themselves. I won't lie

and

> say that even though I have compassion for these people it doesn't

frustrate

> me to no end that many of them are well enough and functioning even with

> their self abuse and I am sick.

> I would give anything just to be well again and some people have it all

and

> just throw it away. BTW, same goes for healthy grumpy people.

> Your right disease is not the right word at all. Any Suggestions?

> Lee-Anne

[Guest guest]

Dennis,

Alcoholics hurt others not just themselves, so I think there is a big difference.. being the daughter of a very abusive alcoholic I see things a bit differently.. I made a choice NOT to become like him, most of my sisters have made that same choice though all of us have drank at one time or some many times and I have been told that one of my sister's is also an alcoholic. I love my sister and I understand why she turned to alcohol, she was married to a very abusive man but she did get help and she did get away from him.

I don't think my illness has hurt anyone else except for my immediate family and that is a normal thing because they love me...

I am just trying to show you there is another side that perhaps you have not been exposed too.

peace,

Sherry

I think I am missing something or misunderstanding, which happensregularly :-). The majority of us on this list have a disease. Are yousaying we don't have any responsibility? Do you know that there areprofessional people in a variety of disciplines who believe that people withRA have brought it on themselves? That means that some people would havethe same contempt for us as that exhibited toward people who are addicted toany substance.> Geoff,> The biggest problem I can see with the word disease is that it takes the> responsibility away from the user. It becomes something that is happeningto> them instead of something they are perpetuating themselves. I won't lieand> say that even though I have compassion for these people it doesn'tfrustrate> me to no end that many of them are well enough and functioning even with> their self abuse and I am sick.> I would give anything just to be well again and some people have it alland> just throw it away. BTW, same goes for healthy grumpy people.> Your right disease is not the right word at all. Any Suggestions?> Lee-AnneTo unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

[Guest guest]

Sorry but I have to say something about this.. drinking is a choice!!! I use to drink and I use to get very drunk I could easily have become an alcoholic but I made a choice to stop drinking!!! There were many reasons for me to want to try to hide my pain but I decided to face it. Not everyone is capable of making that decision but I still believe there is also some accountability for their behavior and for the choice they make eveytime they pick that bottle or can up again...

I have known alcoholics who have stopped cold turkey and even my bio-dad stopped drinking after 60 years of being an alcoholic or at least that was what he told my sister back when she was still talking to him.

This man has hurt so many people, my entire family has suffered because he would not stop drinking we did without food because he choose to spend the money at the bar and on his women friends. We did without electricity and heat during the winter for months because the bills did not get paid. He made plenty of money that was not the problem.

My mother in turn became addicted to prescription drugs this was her escape. Only she left six daughters there to live through it all.. and there were a lot of really bad things that happened.. Now she can not remember how we lived and has painted this perfect life white picket fence and everything!!!

My sisters have argued with her but it is no use and it took three of her daughters and four grandchildren to remember the abuse before she would believe that it happened do you know how hard it is to be the only one to remember?? I do!!!

My sisters and I have worked through that now that many of them have remembered the abuse too..

okay I am getting upset so I will stop now I hope this came out in a civil manner it is not directed at any one person and I wrote it just for those who may not know the damage that alcohol can cause.

Peace and wishes for good health!!

Sherry

> Hi Criss! Geoff Crenshaw here.> <snip> But autopsies on the> > brains of alcoholics have shown that in the alcoholic, the alcohol is> > metabolized differently than in "social drinkers" and that it actually> > creates in them the same chemical found in heroin users that causes> > Not quite. The damage and effects are similar - but the chemistry is> very different.NO! It was the EXACT same chemical. That was the surprising finding of the study and why it was so memorable (to me). The same chemical/substance that makes heroin so addictive was also found in alcoholics. So yes, taking that first drink is a choice, but after that first drink, the addiction grows and is in control. So maybe the word addiction is better than the word disease. But I still think there is nothing wrong with calling something that causes problems/disharmony in the body and/or mind a DIS EASE, a lot broader definition than yours.<snip> > Except - the chemical imbalance does not occur without the voluntary <snip>> And thus the rub... at what point does 'self-control' breach personal> responsibility and become a 'disease.' I happen to be in the camp that> says, 'at no point.' I conclude that you are in the opposite camp. <snip>> The question then is, which approach will be of aid to the poster? Which brings me to the point that I was going to make in my original post but never got around to! The reason I posted this to the group rather than argue it with you privately is because of the perception that the alcoholic lacks self-control or discipline - that they can stop drinking "if they wanted to". An addiction is not that easy to break. I know because it took me 4 tries over 2 years to quit smoking and that is not as insidious an addiction as alcohol. The two addictions are similar in some ways: there is a physical/chemical addiction, there is habit, and there is social factor. They differ in one major way: the psychological. You can break the physical addiction in a couple of days with smoking. I'm not sure of the time it takes for alcohol. But you still have to deal with the habit, and psychological and social factors. If you don't, you will not succeed. <snip> > The "craving" has not left, but the physical "need" is gone.> At that point, "falling off the wagon" is once again under the strict,> total and complete purview of "choice."Cravings and physical addictions are not equal and cravings are not all that is left after the physical addiction is broken. Cravings do not encompass your whole life, which an alcohol addiction does. There are many issues here which I won't go into because that's not the purpose of the group, but keep in mind that it is not a simple matter of choice. There are other factors involved.<snip> Well, OK - that ain't happenin' anytime soon. So how does the poor woman> whose husband is alcoholic and has SD cope with, and help, her mate?> We are, after all, interested in rending support much more than debate> or lively exchange.Again - the whole point of me writing to the group was that the wife may not be able to help this man. The biggest part of breaking an addiction is for the addict to admit that it is a problem and want to do something about it. I think it was Sherry that made the excellent suggestion to contact AlAnon, which is the support group for memebers of the family of alcoholics. Interventions work sometimes, but again, if the alcoholic is not ready to face the problem and get help.... And the wife has to be able to stick to her guns. If that means allowing her husband to carry on in his slow suicide, as hard as that is to watch, she has to do it. Because if she doesn't, and tries to "fix" him again, she is only allowing him to continue in his routine. That is why a group like AlAnon is so important. You can't change the alcoholic but you can change your own actions/perceptions and AlAnon can offer her the support of people who have "been there, done that".We do agree on the biggest issue. The AP probably won't be of much benefit without addressing the alcohol issue. We're trying to boost the health of the whole system and alcohol nullifies most antibiotics, feeds yeast, and stresses the liver - in direct opposition to the AP.Criss To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

[Guest guest]

,

I can only speak for myself but I don't think any one is feeling any contempt

for any one. The point being made was that when you call it a disease you make

it an entity onto itself and can conveniently distance yourself from it and the

responsibility for it. Some people are predisposed for sure, but at some point

they make the decision to drink or not. As, for me who knows? Maybe I did

bring this on myself, but then I guess that makes it my responsibility to stick

to my diet take my meds and do whatever I have to do to get better.

Again, no contempt here. I just don't get it sometimes when I see people who

smoke, drink eat junk and seem to be fine. No contempt, just bewildered. If

anything it might make me more determined.

Lee-Anne

O'Connor wrote:

> I think I am missing something or misunderstanding, which happens

> regularly :-). The majority of us on this list have a disease. Are you

> saying we don't have any responsibility? Do you know that there are

> professional people in a variety of disciplines who believe that people with

> RA have brought it on themselves? That means that some people would have

> the same contempt for us as that exhibited toward people who are addicted to

> any substance.

>

>

> > Geoff,

> > The biggest problem I can see with the word disease is that it takes the

> > responsibility away from the user. It becomes something that is happening

> to

> > them instead of something they are perpetuating themselves. I won't lie

> and

> > say that even though I have compassion for these people it doesn't

> frustrate

> > me to no end that many of them are well enough and functioning even with

> > their self abuse and I am sick.

> > I would give anything just to be well again and some people have it all

> and

> > just throw it away. BTW, same goes for healthy grumpy people.

> > Your right disease is not the right word at all. Any Suggestions?

> > Lee-Anne

>

>

> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Again, no contempt here. I just don't get it sometimes when I see people

who

> smoke, drink eat junk and seem to be fine. No contempt, just bewildered.

If

> anything it might make me more determined.

> Lee-Anne

It doesn't seem fair when people burn the candle at both ends and seem

to sail through life. For me, I grit my teeth at people who can eat

whatever they want and stay slim LOL

[Guest guest]

Lee-Anne,

Re: rheumatic Re: Alcoholism

> The biggest problem I can see with the word disease is that it takes

the

> responsibility away from the user.

My point, exactly.

> Your right disease is not the right word at all. Any Suggestions

Not a clue. For whatever reason, and there are many, people in the US

can handle 'treating' a disease. They do not seem to be able to cope

with treating 'cravings.' They generally feel 'cravings' can be

" handled, " which reflects a gross ignorance and cultural shortcoming as

to the depth and power of 'cravings.'

Unfortunately, the only secular means of handling the physical aspects

of cravings successfully are with Homeopathy for imbalance, nutritional

support for lack of nutrients. Both of these are considered " fringe " and

are generally noncompensable via AMA guidelines -- hence the rub over

money. Very few of us want to pay our own way -- we all want somebody

else to pay for us (insurance / government) and as we release even a

little bit of personal responsibility, we also release (read: give away)

a bit of our personal freedom.

Homeopathy offers the added advantage of giving the patient a release

from the emotional and psychological effects of the imbalance --

something nutritional support alone does not generally do. And Allopathy

never does - witness the " sugar cravings " at the AA meetings.

As long as the strangle-hold of the AMA exists, I know of no better

term. For in fact, 'treatment' is a superior answer for the addicted

personality to incarceration. But the consequences of voluntary acts

should not be released, and IMO that is the risk of the label,

'disease.'

Regards, -----------------------

Geoff ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

How can you have hope?

Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

http://www.healingyou.org/ Nonprofit: Herbs, Homeopathics & supp's.

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money & travel!

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/ Over a MILLION travel deals!

[Guest guest]

I personally will not look at alcoholism as a disease. I remember the first time I heard of alcoholism as a disease, I couldn't believe. Absolutely liberal way of thinking Liberals believe that "you can't help it, and that we are all victims." This is not true! Life is life, and we learn and grow. And when we screw up we must own up to it! Conservatives believe that you are responsible for what you "choose" to do, no matter how difficult it is. If you can contemplate your actions before you do them (no matter how hard) are you not responsible? In murder cases doesn't the jury need to find out if a murderers actions were premeditated? If so, that makes them responsible. If you knowingly run down to the store and by a 6-pack, are you unaware of what you are doing? Of course not! When you know that what you are doing is wrong, doesn't that make you responsible? No one chooses disease. We don't premeditate to have a disease. I have never craved or desired Rheumatoid Arthritis, not once!!! I have however, craved alcohol during desperate times. I have never understood why I would want to drink at a time when life is so despairing and hopeless at times. But every time I chose the bottle I knew what the consequences whould probably be, even though I coukldn't understand why I would want to drink at desparate times. There was a time that I could drink and be merry. Right now is not a time for me and I know it. I believe every alcoholic knows that they shouldn't drink, due to their frame of mind, their problems, whatever it is. Self Pity??They do it anyway. Is it self destruction? Do they hate themselves and life? Are they trying to get lost?

Whatever it is, they choose it. We do not choose disease! I don't know anyone who chooses to have a painful, crippling, disease. In fact we (some of us) do everything we can to fix it. We don't want to live like this, so we search and search until we can find a way to relieve ourselves. I know many people who will lay down for their diseases and accept it as their fate. Not me! I refuse!!! I will not give up! I WILL NEVER GIVE UP! I don't care if there is not a soul in the world who would support me. And I know all of you are the same, otherwise we would not be in this newsgroup.

Cravings are hard, this is true. Does anyone here think that smoking is a disease? I doubt it. What if some "expert came forward and announced that smoking tobacco was a disease. It would be headlines. And it would get "big tobacco" off the hook, and supply the nation with tons of tax dollars! And every willing smoker would be so happy to be able to say that they can't help it. No one seems to want to take responsibility for anything. True, sometimes we are victems of circumstance, but we have the ability to rise above it. We have diseases that we never chose, but we are working like hell to conquer them. The addict has a different problem. It is hard to curb the cravings, for some impossible. But they know that it is up to them to get through it. To call it a disease is to take away the responsibility. We are not responsible for our diseases, in that we did not choose it. But we are responsible in that we must do what we can in the best way we know how to control it. RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH!!! TRY! TRY! TRY!!! We have a wealth of information on the internet. It is our responsibility to do all that we can to fix ourselves. We should however, support the addict as much as we can. If the addict can't do it on their own or with the help of those around them, then it's time to seek professional help. I believe that addicts know when they need help. They need to "just do it". It is their responsibility. Just my opinion.

Peace,

Kimmie

Original Message -----

From: fady assaad

O'Connor

Cc: AP

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 4:23 PM

Subject: Re: rheumatic Re: Alcoholism

,I can only speak for myself but I don't think any one is feeling any contemptfor any one. The point being made was that when you call it a disease you makeit an entity onto itself and can conveniently distance yourself from it and theresponsibility for it. Some people are predisposed for sure, but at some pointthey make the decision to drink or not. As, for me who knows? Maybe I didbring this on myself, but then I guess that makes it my responsibility to stickto my diet take my meds and do whatever I have to do to get better.Again, no contempt here. I just don't get it sometimes when I see people whosmoke, drink eat junk and seem to be fine. No contempt, just bewildered. Ifanything it might make me more determined.Lee-Anne O'Connor wrote:> I think I am missing something or misunderstanding, which happens> regularly :-). The majority of us on this list have a disease. Are you> saying we don't have any responsibility? Do you know that there are> professional people in a variety of disciplines who believe that people with> RA have brought it on themselves? That means that some people would have> the same contempt for us as that exhibited toward people who are addicted to> any substance.> >> > Geoff,> > The biggest problem I can see with the word disease is that it takes the> > responsibility away from the user. It becomes something that is happening> to> > them instead of something they are perpetuating themselves. I won't lie> and> > say that even though I have compassion for these people it doesn't> frustrate> > me to no end that many of them are well enough and functioning even with> > their self abuse and I am sick.> > I would give anything just to be well again and some people have it all> and> > just throw it away. BTW, same goes for healthy grumpy people.> > Your right disease is not the right word at all. Any Suggestions?> > Lee-Anne>>> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups>>>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you I know that it becomes an illness but it is also an

addiction and I have seem many stop drinking when they have reached a point

where they had too. My Mom allowed it to continue in our house hold so I

believe she is just as much at fault. If I did not know that I had a large

chance of becoming an alcoholic then I might not have stopped drinking.. I

only drank for a few months but I would have to drink so much before I even

felt anything from it and then I did drink way more than any one else that

we would go to the dances with.. It just hit me one night that I was doing

the same thing my bio-dad had done and I did not want to be anything like

him!! Then I got pregnant and that took care of it from there on there was

no way I would have done anything when I was pregnant or with young children

and my husband stopped drinking also just after our first daughter was born.

Alcoholism runs in his family too and he did drink a good bit when I first

met him.

I have use my past to help others I have counseled sexually abused women and

teens and even some of the foster kids. Going to counseling one hour a week

does not help all that much... yes, with God's help I took something bad and

did something good with it. I have had people that I do not even know come

to me and tell me about some abuse in their lives that they had never told

to anyone else.. Seems people do pick up on this...

By the way my dad did molest and rape myself and at least five of my sisters

and he was always drunk when this happened. This is in response to someone

else I think, I read so many post I have forgotten what was in which one..

I do not sit and dwell on what happened to me but I have taught my children

to stay away from alcohol and drugs hopefully it has sunk in. I know it has

with my youngest....

I hope you all have a pleasant day!!

Peace,

Sherry

I am still trying to wake up!!!

> Sherry:

> I see your point. A close

> friend of my parents ran over

> a child and she was killed

> because he had several beers

> and should not have been driving.

> This haunted him and hurt him

> for 40 more years before he died

> in his 80's. So yes, there is great

> consequences - in doing something without

> taking responsibility - even with drinking

> and other things of course as well.

> No one deserves abuse - I worked in

> a children and women's shelter (domestic

> violence) in St. s County, Fl. for around

> eight months before I went full-time in the

> work of counseling children and I saw a

> little bit of the devastation that was caused

> by a family member's addiction (alcohol).

> In fact, I think each person has some truth

> in what they are saying in these posts concerning

> the disease Alcoholism. So therefore, some of

> it will be out of context, because another one

> of us will see a point, another adds yet another

> point to explain - it is a subject that has

> many different facets - not wrong, or

> right, but different perspectives.

> I am sorry that you went through that abuse.

> I have worked with children that have gone through

> " unreal " things - I do believe however, in the

> unbelievable " magic " of kids coming back and

> making a bad situation into something that they

> overcome and bounce back. That is who they are.

> I teach kids - that everything that they have

> experienced good and bad - makes up who they

> are - not what they are necessarily- but

> those experiences are a part of their life -

> and you always affirm yourself - not the things

> necessarily that have happened to you.

> As the book, Bad things happen to good people.

> That is life.

> Sorry - this was way toooooooo long.

> Martha

> marthannon1@...

> This is the end of my discussion about this.

> Thanks for all of your comments.

> ________________________________________________________________

> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

[Guest guest]

Kimmie,

Whoa! well said!!!!!!!! I agree with you I never asked for the pain I have had to endure for seven years, we had no choice!!!

Peace and keep on fighting!!!

Sherry

I personally will not look at alcoholism as a disease. I remember the first time I heard of alcoholism as a disease, I couldn't believe. Absolutely liberal way of thinking Liberals believe that "you can't help it, and that we are all victims." This is not true! Life is life, and we learn and grow. And when we screw up we must own up to it! Conservatives believe that you are responsible for what you "choose" to do, no matter how difficult it is. If you can contemplate your actions before you do them (no matter how hard) are you not responsible? In murder cases doesn't the jury need to find out if a murderers actions were premeditated? If so, that makes them responsible. If you knowingly run down to the store and by a 6-pack, are you unaware of what you are doing? Of course not! When you know that what you are doing is wrong, doesn't that make you responsible? No one chooses disease. We don't premeditate to have a disease. I have never craved or desired Rheumatoid Arthritis, not once!!! I have however, craved alcohol during desperate times. I have never understood why I would want to drink at a time when life is so despairing and hopeless at times. But every time I chose the bottle I knew what the consequences whould probably be, even though I coukldn't understand why I would want to drink at desparate times. There was a time that I could drink and be merry. Right now is not a time for me and I know it. I believe every alcoholic knows that they shouldn't drink, due to their frame of mind, their problems, whatever it is. Self Pity??They do it anyway. Is it self destruction? Do they hate themselves and life? Are they trying to get lost?

Whatever it is, they choose it. We do not choose disease! I don't know anyone who chooses to have a painful, crippling, disease. In fact we (some of us) do everything we can to fix it. We don't want to live like this, so we search and search until we can find a way to relieve ourselves. I know many people who will lay down for their diseases and accept it as their fate. Not me! I refuse!!! I will not give up! I WILL NEVER GIVE UP! I don't care if there is not a soul in the world who would support me. And I know all of you are the same, otherwise we would not be in this newsgroup.

Cravings are hard, this is true. Does anyone here think that smoking is a disease? I doubt it. What if some "expert came forward and announced that smoking tobacco was a disease. It would be headlines. And it would get "big tobacco" off the hook, and supply the nation with tons of tax dollars! And every willing smoker would be so happy to be able to say that they can't help it. No one seems to want to take responsibility for anything. True, sometimes we are victems of circumstance, but we have the ability to rise above it. We have diseases that we never chose, but we are working like hell to conquer them. The addict has a different problem. It is hard to curb the cravings, for some impossible. But they know that it is up to them to get through it. To call it a disease is to take away the responsibility. We are not responsible for our diseases, in that we did not choose it. But we are responsible in that we must do what we can in the best way we know how to control it. RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH!!! TRY! TRY! TRY!!! We have a wealth of information on the internet. It is our responsibility to do all that we can to fix ourselves. We should however, support the addict as much as we can. If the addict can't do it on their own or with the help of those around them, then it's time to seek professional help. I believe that addicts know when they need help. They need to "just do it". It is their responsibility. Just my opinion.

Peace,

Kimmie

Original Message -----

From: fady assaad

O'Connor

Cc: AP

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 4:23 PM

Subject: Re: rheumatic Re: Alcoholism

,I can only speak for myself but I don't think any one is feeling any contemptfor any one. The point being made was that when you call it a disease you makeit an entity onto itself and can conveniently distance yourself from it and theresponsibility for it. Some people are predisposed for sure, but at some pointthey make the decision to drink or not. As, for me who knows? Maybe I didbring this on myself, but then I guess that makes it my responsibility to stickto my diet take my meds and do whatever I have to do to get better.Again, no contempt here. I just don't get it sometimes when I see people whosmoke, drink eat junk and seem to be fine. No contempt, just bewildered. Ifanything it might make me more determined.Lee-Anne O'Connor wrote:> I think I am missing something or misunderstanding, which happens> regularly :-). The majority of us on this list have a disease. Are you> saying we don't have any responsibility? Do you know that there are> professional people in a variety of disciplines who believe that people with> RA have brought it on themselves? That means that some people would have> the same contempt for us as that exhibited toward people who are addicted to> any substance.> >> > Geoff,> > The biggest problem I can see with the word disease is that it takes the> > responsibility away from the user. It becomes something that is happening> to> > them instead of something they are perpetuating themselves. I won't lie> and> > say that even though I have compassion for these people it doesn't> frustrate> > me to no end that many of them are well enough and functioning even with> > their self abuse and I am sick.> > I would give anything just to be well again and some people have it all> and> > just throw it away. BTW, same goes for healthy grumpy people.> > Your right disease is not the right word at all. Any Suggestions?> > Lee-Anne>>> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups>>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Criss! Geoff Crenshaw here.

> Message: 6

> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:30:25 -0000

> From: crissj76@...

> Subject: Re: Alcoholism

>

>

> NO! It was the EXACT same chemical. That was the surprising finding

> of the study and why it was so memorable (to me). The same

It might well be that we are talking about the same situation at

different points along the metabolic cascade. This is not particularly

pertinent to 'my' point, although I realize it is germane to yours and I

accept it as-is.

> chemical/substance that makes heroin so addictive was also found in

> alcoholics. So yes, taking that first drink is a choice, but after

> that first drink, the addiction grows and is in control. So maybe the

So far then, we would agree... it is

> word addiction is better than the word disease. But I still think

From my perspective I believe that to be accurate, yes. Unfortunately,

societally we tend to view addictions as self-fulfilling, self-propelled

situations. This is truly unfortunate, for it over-simplifies an

extremely complex issue in that it fails to recognize both when this

viepoint is errant and when it is correct - but incomplete.

For instance, the majority of us on this list have used corticosteroids,

such as Prednisone. Prednisone is physically addictive, hence the need

to wean from it. Weaning from Prednisone has been a very major issue for

many of us, and it's not " necessarily " because of a psychological

component. And yet, for some, that too can be an issue.

Thankfully it does not carry AS BIG a psychological component as, say,

the opiates.

But the point is there... we too, have been " addicts. "

> there is nothing wrong with calling something that causes

> problems/disharmony in the body and/or mind a DIS EASE, a lot broader

> definition than yours.

This is the crux of the point upon which we differ, for the rest above

and below here we seem to agree. I see a very great jeopardy in the

label itself. From my perspective, the label creates issues which are

destructive to the process of change... changing from being a person

addicted to a substance to one who is no longer subject to the

enslavement caused by that substence.

I, too, see this from experience within the forces of society and I

truly believe it to be a grave error.

My issue with the label, however disharmonious with your endorsement of

it, does not change the fact of the physical, emotional, psychological,

and spiritual components to which we both allude and upon which we both

appear to agree.

> Which brings me to the point that I was going to make in my original

> post but never got around to! The reason I posted this to the group

> rather than argue it with you privately is because of the perception

> that the alcoholic lacks self-control or discipline - that they can

> stop drinking " if they wanted to " . An addiction is not that easy to

> break. I know because it took me 4 tries over 2 years to quit smoking

> and that is not as insidious an addiction as alcohol. The two

> addictions are similar in some ways: there is a physical/chemical

> addiction, there is habit, and there is social factor. They differ in

> one major way: the psychological. You can break the physical

> addiction in a couple of days with smoking. I'm not sure of the time

> it takes for alcohol. But you still have to deal with the habit, and

> psychological and social factors. If you don't, you will not succeed.

Nothing to argue, or even debate... we are in agreement aside from the

" label " itself.

> Cravings and physical addictions are not equal and cravings are not

> all that is left after the physical addiction is broken. Cravings do

> not encompass your whole life, which an alcohol addiction does. There

Here, then, we " might " part ways. But again, it is mere symantics. I

suppose it depends upon our mutual understandings of " cravings. " At

issue then are the semantics of language, not the realties of addiction

.... and cravings ... and the physical/emotional processes involved in

them.

Please do not think that I mean to lessen the import of " addiction, " for

I do not, but rather I give a more rounded appreciation of the term and

actions of cravings. The two are so closely intertwined as to be

inseperable. At best one might say cravings can become addictions if one

wishes to draw a line between them.

But I think it is not unrealistic to deal with the 'cravings' as well,

for the very 'cravings' are what many addicted people describe and call

the issues which drive them back into their self-propelled addictive

behavior.

So if the junky says he craves heroin, and the doctor says he is

addicted to heroin, is one more correct than the other? Or are they

merely using different words to describe the same phenomenon?

I would assert it is the latter, due chiefly to the fact that we

" expand " the definition of " addiction " to include the psyhological

component, i.e., the " craving. " If addiction were merely classified as

the physical component of dependence, then this semantic circle would be

nonexistant.

> are many issues here which I won't go into because that's not the

> purpose of the group, but keep in mind that it is not a simple matter

> of choice. There are other factors involved.

I agree and understand completely. If I am being interpreted otherwise,

that is error. Addictions are a complex issue. They are not limited to

merely the physical plain, nor are they limited to the desires of the

addicted, but they expand to the entire agmut of their education,

upbringing, self-awareness, discipline, etc., etc.

In the end, the choice to start is that of the person. The choice to

stop, may or may not be theirs at all. If the will to stop is present,

that is only half, or perhaps less than half, of the battle --- it is

the will not tostart again that is the true key.

> Again - the whole point of me writing to the group was that the wife

> may not be able to help this man. The biggest part of breaking an

> addiction is for the addict to admit that it is a problem and want to

> do something about it. I think it was Sherry that made the excellent

> suggestion to contact AlAnon, which is the support group for memebers

> of the family of alcoholics. Interventions work sometimes, but again,

> if the alcoholic is not ready to face the problem and get help....

Yes

> And the wife has to be able to stick to her guns. If that means

> allowing her husband to carry on in his slow suicide, as hard as that

> is to watch, she has to do it. Because if she doesn't, and tries to

> " fix " him again, she is only allowing him to continue in his routine.

> That is why a group like AlAnon is so important. You can't change

> the alcoholic but you can change your own actions/perceptions and

> AlAnon can offer her the support of people who have " been there, done

> that " .

>

> We do agree on the biggest issue. The AP probably won't be of much

> benefit without addressing the alcohol issue. We're trying to boost

> the health of the whole system and alcohol nullifies most antibiotics,

> feeds yeast, and stresses the liver - in direct opposition to the AP.

>

> Criss

We agree on much more than that, we just say it in different ways.

Regards, -----------------------

Geoff ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

How can you have hope?

Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

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[Guest guest]

Hi Gage,

My email is still playing up a bit - but I found this about alcohol on one of your old postings -

was this the information you were sending through.

Love and Peace

Ann

alcoholism

Hi, Does anyone have a great protocol for alcoholism. I have a 31 year old female client who wants to stop drinking, but..... She is also ADHD and that is tied to alcoholism 85% of the time, so I am working with her from that perspective presently. Your input is always appreciated. Thankx, ............................................

[Guest guest]

Hi Ann,

I sent you a long email offlist, did you not get it? Please let me know as there are at least 2 more coming, and a possible solution is a separate freebie email box ( or hotmail.)

Gage

(Apology to the list for posting this question, but there may be an email prob. here)

*-.,_,.-*'``'*-.,_,.-*'``'*-.,_,.-*'``'*-.,_,.-*'``'*-.,_,.-*'``'*-.,_,.-*

*-.,_,.-*'``'*-.,_,.-*'``'*-.,_,.-*'``'*-.,_,.-*'``'*-.,_,.-*'``'*-.,_,.-*

alcoholism

Hi, Does anyone have a great protocol for alcoholism. I have a 31 year old female client who wants to stop drinking, but..... She is also ADHD and that is tied to alcoholism 85% of the time, so I am working with her from that perspective presently. Your input is always appreciated. Thankx, ............................................

[Guest guest]

Hello is,

I do not know if I am wise, but my experiences with Alcoholism are,

that these persons are not able to live their live in a conscious way.

The reasons are to be find in the past. It is the first time, they had

to solve a problem, most of them during the time, they were born. I do

not know, how old your patient is. But in the earlier time women got a

kind of tranquillizer or some kind of narcotics to reduce the

pain. Today it is also usual to reduce the pain with similar

substances.

Look into allopathica if you find barbiturates or others. Look also in

the trauma panel and test him. The first problem in his live he had to

solve, he had probably these substances in his blood and made the stress

situation easier. It is very impotant to make this aware to your

patient that he is using an " old " information. Search for information

if his mother or father used alcoholics. If it is so, make him aware

that he is living mothers or fathers experiences, not his own.

The first contact with alcoholics is a very important hint, why he

went on drinking. You can use the detox possibilities in Homotox.

I do some sessions with talking abbout problems and why these problems

are so significant. I always search for the first time and make aware

to the patient, that this it is not his own way to solve problems.

You can use Kudzu, a plant which detoxes the liver, helps to stop

alcoholism and smoking, because it blockes the receptors for alcohol

and nicotine, so that they do not feel the addiction to their drugs.

I hope that I could explain my experiences in the right way (and the

right words).

But I am successful with going this way with my patient.

Hope, you will have success

Christa

Monday, September 27, 2004, 9:57:17 PM, you wrote:

AR> Hi all:

AR> Is there any wise person among us who has worked knowledgeably and

AR> successfully with alcoholism.  I have a wonderful patient who is the

AR> salt of the earth who loves my treatments.  He is grateful he found me

AR> but he said he doesn't want to stop drinking, not even after he got

AR> put in jail last week for drunk driving.  The financial impact is

AR> going to cost him thousands of dollars.  I asked him what it will take

AR> to get him to consider stopping and he replied he didn't know. 

AR> I feel that the treatments are helping him to function at work.  His

AR> energy came back and his sleep is improving.  In a strange way I feel

AR> like I'm enabling him .  On the other hand, I am hoping that I will

AR> get him to a place where he'll be able to see that he's going nowhere

AR> fast and that sooner or later his body is going to present him with a

AR> message that may be more than a gentle hint.  is

AR> ............................................

AR>

[Guest guest]

Dear A;lexis, just another tip, hopefully. Most alcoholics smoke as well. This adds to the acidity in their body. Long ago there was some research done by Dr. Schauss of the Biosocial Research Institute that if one gives up smoking, the craving for alcohol also decreases dramatically. Why not run the stop smoking programme on the Scio?C.Lewicki-HP@... wrote:

Hello is,I do not know if I am wise, but my experiences with Alcoholism are,that these persons are not able to live their live in a conscious way.The reasons are to be find in the past. It is the first time, they hadto solve a problem, most of them during the time, they were born. I donot know, how old your patient is. But in the earlier time women got akind of tranquillizer or some kind of narcotics to reduce thepain. Today it is also usual to reduce the pain with similarsubstances.Look into allopathica if you find barbiturates or others. Look also inthe trauma panel and test him. The first problem in his live he had tosolve, he had probably these substances in his blood and made the stresssituation easier. It is very impotant to make this aware to yourpatient that he is using an "old" information. Search for

informationif his mother or father used alcoholics. If it is so, make him awarethat he is living mothers or fathers experiences, not his own.The first contact with alcoholics is a very important hint, why hewent on drinking. You can use the detox possibilities in Homotox.I do some sessions with talking abbout problems and why these problemsare so significant. I always search for the first time and make awareto the patient, that this it is not his own way to solve problems.You can use Kudzu, a plant which detoxes the liver, helps to stopalcoholism and smoking, because it blockes the receptors for alcoholand nicotine, so that they do not feel the addiction to their drugs.I hope that I could explain my experiences in the right way (and theright words).But I am successful with going this way with my patient.Hope, you will have successChristaMonday, September 27, 2004, 9:57:17 PM, you wrote:AR>

Hi all:AR> Is there any wise person among us who has worked knowledgeably andAR> successfully with alcoholism. I have a wonderful patient who is theAR> salt of the earth who loves my treatments. He is grateful he found meAR> but he said he doesn't want to stop drinking, not even after he gotAR> put in jail last week for drunk driving. The financial impact isAR> going to cost him thousands of dollars. I asked him what it will takeAR> to get him to consider stopping and he replied he didn't know. AR> I feel that the treatments are helping him to function at work. HisAR> energy came back and his sleep is improving. In a strange way I feelAR> like I'm enabling him . On the other hand, I am hoping that I willAR> get him to a place where he'll be able to see that he's going nowhereAR> fast and that sooner or later his body is going to present him

with aAR> message that may be more than a gentle hint. is AR> ............................................AR>

[Guest guest]

Dear Friend,

Many thanks for your kind response. Ah, you sparked my brain. Kudzu.

Yes. Information from Chinese Herbology that I had totally

forgotten. I think I will make him an apple pudding tomorrow when he

comes in.

One cup organic apple juice

one tablespoon kudzu

squirt of vanilla

Put on heat and keep stirring until it becomes a thick clear pudding.

It's also a great remedy for getting the ph balanced and helping to

calm a migraine. One of my favorite things to do for myself when I'm

over the top. Thanks to Ann Marie Colbin, macrobiotics cook.

Well, we finaly got him to realize that drinking while driving is not

a good idea. I will do all that you suggested but one of these days

I'm going to have to face the ethical dilemma: am I enabling him to

keep drinking? He can come here, get his hangovers fixed up, get his

energy flowing again, calm him down and bring him to a greater

awareness. But until he gets the point where he WANTS to quit

drinking, what can anyone really do? I can only take him so far. His

wife is an enabler. I have him signed up for two months of therapy --

hopefully I will expand his awareness to help him see what he is doing

to himself and his family -- after that, I may have to lovingly let

him go. I want to help, not enable.

is Rotella

>

> AR> Hi all:

>

> AR> Is there any wise person among us who has worked knowledgeably and

> AR> successfully with alcoholism. I have a wonderful patient who is the

> AR> salt of the earth who loves my treatments. He is grateful he

found me

> AR> but he said he doesn't want to stop drinking, not even after he got

> AR> put in jail last week for drunk driving. The financial impact is

> AR> going to cost him thousands of dollars. I asked him what it

will take

> AR> to get him to consider stopping and he replied he didn't know.

>

>

> AR> I feel that the treatments are helping him to function at work. His

> AR> energy came back and his sleep is improving. In a strange way I

feel

> AR> like I'm enabling him . On the other hand, I am hoping that I will

> AR> get him to a place where he'll be able to see that he's going

nowhere

> AR> fast and that sooner or later his body is going to present him

with a

> AR> message that may be more than a gentle hint. is

>

>

>

>

> AR> ............................................

>

> AR>

[Guest guest]

where can you get this kudzu, is it available in Europe

Regards

[Guest guest]

Dear is,

I think all is right what you do. Yor patient is surely on the right

way. The first step he had done was to come to you for stabilize his

body. The next step will be to help his soul. He will give you the

sign when the moment is present. My be it will take some time, but

surely it will happen. Sometimes somebody has to go to a very deep

valley to reach a target. But it is the way which is important and it

is the way he will help him to learn.

Often such people need help to see the way. I think to show the

direction is our duty to help, but they have to go themselves

To do a therapy with " Resistance to change " in the various

possibilities with the SCIO may be one way to help him to change his

mind. If you are unsure to do it, ask yourself " May I or should I? " ,

put the question in NLP, you will get an answer.

The etherical dilemma will come up, if you play his game, not your

own. You will loose the control about the therapeutic intervention

in that moment when your intention will be only to heal his body.

I think you are doing right to take him so far until a change in his

mind will come up.

Don't give up!

Christa

Sunday, October 3, 2004, 4:42:20 PM, you wrote:

AR> Dear Friend,

AR> Many thanks for your kind response.  Ah, you sparked my brain.  Kudzu.

AR> Yes.  Information from Chinese Herbology that I had totally

AR> forgotten.  I think I will make him an apple pudding tomorrow when he

AR> comes in.

AR> One cup organic apple juice

AR> one tablespoon kudzu

AR> squirt of vanilla

AR> Put on heat and keep stirring until it becomes a thick clear pudding.

AR> It's also a great remedy for getting the ph balanced and helping to

AR> calm a migraine.  One of my favorite things to do for myself when I'm

AR> over the top.  Thanks to Ann Marie Colbin, macrobiotics cook.

AR> Well, we finaly got him to realize that drinking while driving is not

AR> a good idea. I will do all that you suggested but one of these days

AR> I'm going to have to face the ethical dilemma:  am I enabling him to

AR> keep drinking?  He can come here, get his hangovers fixed up, get his

AR> energy flowing again, calm him down and bring him to a greater

AR> awareness.  But until he gets the point where he WANTS to quit

AR> drinking, what can anyone really do?  I can only take him so far.  His

AR> wife is an enabler.  I have him signed up for two months of therapy --

AR> hopefully I will expand his awareness to help him see what he is doing

AR> to himself and his family -- after that, I may have to lovingly let

AR> him go.  I want to help, not enable.

AR> is Rotella

AR>

>>

>> AR> Hi all:

>>

>> AR> Is there any wise person among us who has worked knowledgeably and

>> AR> successfully with alcoholism.  I have a wonderful patient who is the

>> AR> salt of the earth who loves my treatments.  He is grateful he

AR> found me

>> AR> but he said he doesn't want to stop drinking, not even after he got

>> AR> put in jail last week for drunk driving.  The financial impact is

>> AR> going to cost him thousands of dollars.  I asked him what it

AR> will take

>> AR> to get him to consider stopping and he replied he didn't know. 

>>

>>

>> AR> I feel that the treatments are helping him to function at work.  His

>> AR> energy came back and his sleep is improving.  In a strange way I

AR> feel

>> AR> like I'm enabling him .  On the other hand, I am hoping that I will

>> AR> get him to a place where he'll be able to see that he's going

AR> nowhere

>> AR> fast and that sooner or later his body is going to present him

AR> with a

>> AR> message that may be more than a gentle hint.  is

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> AR> ............................................

>>

>> AR>

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for your feedback in regard to my question on paternal

alcoholism being linked to AS. How about a " maternal link " I'm

guessing, given your feedback, if it could be linked, then there

would be a greater chance that it might be linked to an alcoholic

birth mother. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to place any blame,

just trying to learn as much as possible about this disorder and the

possible causes, and risk factors associated genetics.

Thanks again,

WD

[Guest guest]

WD,

I had my Development class today, and I asked your question. Wanted to let you know the response I got, number 1, 2, and 4 being red flags- "How does a man's drinking affect his offspring? 1) Alcohol lowers a man's testosterone levels. 2) Heavy alcohol consumption during adolescence may permanently alter the DNA in a man's sperm. 3) Alcohol use at the time of conception inhibits normal sexual performance. 4) Alcohol use at the time of conception decreases the mobility of healthy sperm, increasing the risk of birth defects. 5) Babies born to alcoholic parents have an 80% risk of inheriting the tendency to become alcoholics. 6) Children born to fathers who consume large amounts of alcohol are at greater risk for problems in life such as learning disabilities, behavior problems, and mental health issues. 7) Children born to alcoholic fathers may inherit a genetic tendency to become alcoholic themselves. 8) Pregnant women are more likely to drink if their male partners drink. 9) Children of alcoholic fathers are at higher risk of being victims of abuse (physical, emotional, sexual). 10) Children of alcoholic fathers are at higher risk of being victims or witnesses of domestic violence."

And regarding the mother-

"Alcohol Exposure During Stages of Pregnancy

During the first trimester, as shown by the research of Drs. Clarren and Streissguth, alcohol interferes with the migration and organization of brain cells. [Journal of Pediatrics, 92(1):64-67] Heavy drinking during the second trimester, particularly from the 10th to 20th week after conception, seems to cause more clinical features of FAS than at other times during pregnancy, according to a study in England. [Early-Human-Development; 1983 Jul Vol. 8(2) 99-111] During the third trimester, according to Dr. D. Coles, the hippocampus is greatly affected, which leads to problems with encoding visual and auditory information (reading and math). [Neurotoxicology And Teratology, 13:357-367, 1991]

From the College of Cognitive and Linguistic Sciences at Brown University, Providence, RI."

In conclusion, although alcohol is linked to many disorders in babies, as far as I can tell, it's not linked specifically to autism. Though I think the info on fathers and alcohol is intriguing, because I've seen research online regarding a study done on Autism and testosterone in the female being a factor. More info on alcohol's affects on babies can be found at www.fasstar.com

HTH,

Anne

-- Re: Alcoholism

Thank you all for your feedback in regard to my question on paternal alcoholism being linked to AS. How about a "maternal link" I'm guessing, given your feedback, if it could be linked, then there would be a greater chance that it might be linked to an alcoholic birth mother. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to place any blame, just trying to learn as much as possible about this disorder and the possible causes, and risk factors associated genetics.Thanks again,WD

[Guest guest]

>>I had my Development class today, and I asked your question. Wanted to let

>>you know the response I got, number 1, 2, and 4 being red flags- " How does

>>a man's drinking affect his offspring? 1) Alcohol lowers a man's

>>testosterone levels.<<

snip

>>In conclusion, although alcohol is linked to many disorders in babies, as

>>far as I can tell, it's not linked specifically to autism. Though I think

>>the info on fathers and alcohol is intriguing, because I've seen research

>>online regarding a study done on Autism and testosterone in the female

>>being a factor. <<

Prof Simon Baron-Cohen (Cambridge UK) is investigating a link with

*increased* testosterone levels during pregnancy, which are created by the

*foetus* itself. IOW, the foetus already has the genes which cause it to

produce more testosterone. This is linked with the " extreme male brain "

theory, which you can read about in his book " The Essential Difference " .

They are also looking into a possible link with PCOS - polycystic ovary,

which causes increased testosterone in the mother.

Here is the link for his research unit:

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/arc/default.asp

I'm not sure if you can do the questionnaire tests on-line, but they are

called the EQ and SQ (empathy and systemising quotients). They are not

diagnostics. Also try the 'reading the mind in the eyes' test.if you can.