Digestive Enzymes

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/5/03 7:29:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ----->chris, i'm not sure i follow....pepsin is an enzyme, but you're

> saying

> it doesn't actually do any of the " breaking down " of protein itself, but

> only assists the HCl in doing so?

I don't know what it assists in doing so but enzymes don't break anything

down. They are catalysts and catalysts don't do anything except speed up

chemical reactions that would normally take place very slowly.

Now at a further level of detail catalysts actually do engage in chemical

reactions but that's really a technicality because those reactions are 100%

unnecessary for the final reaction to take place. Enzymes do not make new

reactions, it's just that the reactions would take place anyway but thousands of

times

too slow to keep us alive.

Chris

[Guest guest]

I'll not only second Heidi's suggestion to get away from gluten, but I'd say

as an immediate she should be off gluten because if any proteins are leaking

through the gut I don't see how gluten could be other than the first to get

through, since it seems to be the hardest to digest. If she didn't start out

being gluten intolerant, I'd think leaky gut would make you develop a reaction

to

gluten over time, wouldn't it? I'd stay away from all starches completely

anyway, and might want to try staying away from disacharides too. (ala SCD)

I can't resist strongly recommending Primal Defense. My experience is it is

a super-probiotic, with nothing comparable (some folks say EM are comparable

or better, I haven't tried them), and it's widely reported to be a big help for

such gut issues.

Enzymes I would expect to definitely, definitely help. I'd make sure they

include HCl (better be safe than sorry) and ox bile, and obviously lipase, which

is a given. (If it says pancreatin it will have lipase regardless of whether

it says lipase on the bottle).

Chris

[Guest guest]

>She has leaky gut problems, and feels sick most of the day, every

>single day. She also has diarrhea most of the time. Too much fat

>sets her off, particularly animal fat, and a low carb diet generally

>improves her condition, but it doesn't cure it. Dairy is

>particularly bad for her.

The first thing she should do would be to get a gluten intolerance

test, if she hasn't already. Gluten is a HUGE protion

of most people's diet, and about 1/5 of the population reacts to it

and it is by far the one common thing the docs don't test for.

IF that is her problem, stopping

gluten won't necessarily " fix " her immediately -- but intolerance

to animal fat and dairy, and diarrhea, are very common symptoms.

Diabetes and hypothyroid are also possible symptoms.

The fact a " low carb " diet helps her might be a clue too ... wheat and

corn and rice are the major carbs, and all can be allergens.

I hear it is easier to get tested in Europe than in the US though,

so maybe she has been tested?

If her problem is classic-style gluten intolerance, it can take

a couple years to heal on a very rigid diet, but she might feel

a LOT better after a couple of weeks. The trick is to get rid of

ALL of it, which means not using most packaged foods and

being careful about cutting surfaces, toasters etc.

The other likely candidate would be low stomach acid, which

has just about the same set of symptoms.

As for the question you asked -- the digestive enzymes would

probably help in either case. If it is low stomach acid though,

you'd want enyzmes with added HCL, and if it is gluten, you

want a rigidly wheat/barley/rye free diet. There could be

some other issue too, I'm sure, but statistically those are

the most common that I've seen.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/19/03 9:35:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

bwilder@... writes:

> Dear Jo, If you eat fermented foods, digestive enzymes would probably

> not be necessary,

If you start out healthy fermented foods are probably fine to maintain

bacteria and enzyme levels, but for someone with considerable health problems it

is

simply not nearly enough.

I eat tons of fermented stuff, and when I had gut issues enzymes helped a

*lot*.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Dear Jo, If you eat fermented foods, digestive enzymes would probably

not be necessary, but it sounds like your mom needs to check out

whether she has an overgrowth of yeast " Candida. " To help the

digestive system normalizes the most important things are to

eliminate all sugars (including fruit) and grains, and have a low

carb diet. Over time as she normalizes she will probably do better

with the fats. Good salt and vinegar products help digest fat. She

should start on a gradient and not change anything too fast. I hope

that helps. I have to go to work so I don't have much time this

morning.

Cheers, Bee

> Hi

>

> I have read about digestive enzymes on this list, and I think my

mum

> might benefit from them. Please could you let me have your

opinions

> on whether or not she should take them?:

>

> She has leaky gut problems, and feels sick most of the day, every

> single day. She also has diarrhea most of the time. Too much fat

> sets her off, particularly animal fat, and a low carb diet

generally

> improves her condition, but it doesn't cure it. Dairy is

> particularly bad for her.

>

> She's had loads of tests, is not lactose intolerant, but the

doctors

> have no answers for her. She is diabetic, hypothyroid, high BP and

> high cholesterol.

>

> If you think she would benefit from taking enyzmes, which should

she

> take? I need the name of the enzyme, not a brand name, as I live

in

> UK and Mum in france.

>

> Thanks for your help

>

> Jo

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/19/03 5:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jopollack2001@... writes:

> What is primal Defense? I guess it's an american brand? If so, is

> it probiotics, and what's the active ingredients content? I need to

> be able to find something similar available in Europe

It's a probiotic produced by Garden of Life. Effective Microorganisms might

be comparable, but either way you'd end up mail ordering. Don't bother

looking for a comparable product in Europe, I don't think.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> I can't resist strongly recommending Primal Defense. My experience

is it is

> a super-probiotic, with nothing comparable (some folks say EM are

comparable

> or better, I haven't tried them), and it's widely reported to be a

big help for

> such gut issues.

Thanks Chris

What is primal Defense? I guess it's an american brand? If so, is

it probiotics, and what's the active ingredients content? I need to

be able to find something similar available in Europe

Thanks

Jo

[Guest guest]

My Mum is not keen on fermented foods, except yoghurt. The French

are big on eating pickles before a meal, but she just plain doesn't

like them.

She is the furthest thing from a " foodie " that you could possibly

get! Even if I suggested she make her own sauerkraut (which she

doesn't like anyway!) she would glaze over within about 10 seconds.

Whatever she eats has to be shop bought - she wouldn't make her own

yoghurt or kefir.

Thanks for your help

Jo

> In a message dated 8/19/03 9:35:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> bwilder@t... writes:

>

> > Dear Jo, If you eat fermented foods, digestive enzymes would

probably

> > not be necessary,

>

> If you start out healthy fermented foods are probably fine to

maintain

> bacteria and enzyme levels, but for someone with considerable

health problems it is

> simply not nearly enough.

>

> I eat tons of fermented stuff, and when I had gut issues enzymes

helped a

> *lot*.

[Guest guest]

Chris-

EM's available in Europe, or at least in some parts of Europe.

>Don't bother

>looking for a comparable product in Europe, I don't think.

-

[Guest guest]

Is Primal Defense just probiotic or enzymes too?

Elaine

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/20/03 2:01:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

itchyink@... writes:

>

> Is Primal Defense just probiotic or enzymes too?

Primal Defense does not contain enzymes, except the enzymes that are

naturally in the foods themselves and the organisms. The substrates for the

organisms

are actually the foods they are cultured on in PD, which is very rare if

other companies do it at all, so theres enzymes in it, but it is not an enzyme

supplement and if you need one you should get an enzyme supplement to go along

with it.

Chris

[Guest guest]

It's a probiotic produced by Garden of Life. Effective

Microorganisms might

> be comparable, but either way you'd end up mail ordering. Don't

bother

> looking for a comparable product in Europe, I don't think.

Well, I bought Inner Garden Flora probiotic for myself - got it from

the US for $20 plus $14 shipping! So I'm not buying anything from

the US with that sort of shipping charge!

The Inner Garden Flora seemed pretty good to me - the first day I

took it it " purged " me! So I stopped for a day or 2 then restarted

and was fine. I haven't had much of a yeast problem since that week,

although I have now stopped taking it.

Jo

[Guest guest]

On 11/13/05, REMOC <REMOCLIHP@...> wrote:

> How does one determine the amount of digestive enzymes to take after a meal?

My body finds the increaed fat in the diet most satisfying but now I am

experiencing minor heartburn for the first time in my life. Stools are no longer

dark like they have been;are more like orange.According to facial diagnosis of

the mouth my stomach is weakening. I thought the fat would increase bile

production and help the digestive tract so this puzzles me. Any onsight is

appreciated as to what I'm doing wrong or need to do.

>

> Phil

Were you instructed to take the enzymes AFTER the meal? I've always

seen instructions of the form " take while eating, in the initial third

of a protein-containing meal " . By " third " I'm guessing they mean

calories, not time, but I'm not sure.

re: heartburn -- you are taking just enzymes and NOT extra HCL, yes?

Supplemental HCL (acid to help you out if you're not making adequate

stomach acid to digest your food correctly) can cause heart burn if

you take more than you need -- it's the classic sign you're told to

look for to know that you've ramped up your dose past " adequate " ...

[Guest guest]

I'm taking Omegazyme not just HCL. I will try taking them while eating.Guess all

these years I've been taking them wrong but nobody ever told me to do that.

Phil

Re: Digestive Enzymes

On 11/13/05, REMOC <REMOCLIHP@...> wrote:

> How does one determine the amount of digestive enzymes to take after a meal?

My body finds the increaed fat in the diet most satisfying but now I am

experiencing minor heartburn for the first time in my life. Stools are no longer

dark like they have been;are more like orange.According to facial diagnosis of

the mouth my stomach is weakening. I thought the fat would increase bile

production and help the digestive tract so this puzzles me. Any onsight is

appreciated as to what I'm doing wrong or need to do.

>

> Phil

Were you instructed to take the enzymes AFTER the meal? I've always

seen instructions of the form " take while eating, in the initial third

of a protein-containing meal " . By " third " I'm guessing they mean

calories, not time, but I'm not sure.

re: heartburn -- you are taking just enzymes and NOT extra HCL, yes?

Supplemental HCL (acid to help you out if you're not making adequate

stomach acid to digest your food correctly) can cause heart burn if

you take more than you need -- it's the classic sign you're told to

look for to know that you've ramped up your dose past " adequate " ...

[Guest guest]

>

> How does one determine the amount of digestive enzymes to take after

a meal? My body finds the increaed fat in the diet most satisfying but

now I am experiencing minor heartburn for the first time in my life.

Stools are no longer dark like they have been;are more like

orange.According to facial diagnosis of the mouth my stomach is

weakening. I thought the fat would increase bile production and help

the digestive tract so this puzzles me. Any onsight is appreciated as

to what I'm doing wrong or need to do.

>

> Phil

What do you mean by taking digestive enzymes? Like the foods mentioned

here?

http://www.westonaprice.org/transition/digestion.html

And yes chewing slowly and not drinking much during meals is

underrated but important. It also helps to make lots of saliva and

swallow that as saliva has lots of enzymes

[Guest guest]

if you want to raise hcl levels drink alot of strong lemonade

[Guest guest]

I'm referring to suplemental forms of enzymes. As best I can tell I'm doing

everything else to enhance digestion;fermented veggies with each meal,chewing

longer and not drinking with meals. So I thought maybe with all the fat I'm

consuming I simply need more supplemental enzymes for now but I don't want to

take more than I need and waste them. I'm wondering if heartburn kind of pain

would be indicative of an overdose of enzymes? How else would one tell if he or

she is taking too many enzymes?

Phil

Re: Digestive Enzymes

>

> How does one determine the amount of digestive enzymes to take after

a meal? My body finds the increaed fat in the diet most satisfying but

now I am experiencing minor heartburn for the first time in my life.

Stools are no longer dark like they have been;are more like

orange.According to facial diagnosis of the mouth my stomach is

weakening. I thought the fat would increase bile production and help

the digestive tract so this puzzles me. Any onsight is appreciated as

to what I'm doing wrong or need to do.

>

> Phil

What do you mean by taking digestive enzymes? Like the foods mentioned

here?

http://www.westonaprice.org/transition/digestion.html

And yes chewing slowly and not drinking much during meals is

underrated but important. It also helps to make lots of saliva and

swallow that as saliva has lots of enzymes

[Guest guest]

Phil-

>How does one determine the amount of digestive enzymes to take after

>a meal? My body finds the increaed fat in the diet most satisfying

>but now I am experiencing minor heartburn for the first time in my

>life. Stools are no longer dark like they have been;are more like

>orange.According to facial diagnosis of the mouth my stomach is

>weakening. I thought the fat would increase bile production and help

>the digestive tract so this puzzles me. Any onsight is appreciated

>as to what I'm doing wrong or need to do.

That's sort of an open question. One way of looking at it would be

to seek the highest-lipase pancreatin you can find and peg your

enzyme dosage to your protein consumption, since excess protease

might be dangerous to your intestines. Another way of looking at it

would be to peg your enzyme dosage to your fat consumption on the

assumption that you need some assistance with fat digestion. USP

units of amylase and protease digest carbs and proteins at the rate

of 1,000 units per gram, whereas USP units of lipase digest fats at

the rate of something like 127 units per gram (go figure) so you

could calculate what you're getting in a meal and take enzymes accordingly.

You could also try bile supplements or a gall bladder flush. Though

the flush could be very helpful, I'd exercise caution with it, as it

could conceivably be dangerous if you have any large stones in your

gall bladder.

As to the heartburn, the most likely explanation is either

hypochlorhydria (insufficient stomach acid production) or lower

esophageal sphincter atrophy -- or both, since hypochlorhydria tends

to cause the atrophy. Since you have very firm stools,

hypochlorhydria is less likely, but you could experiment with HCl

supplementation, which isn't dangerous at all unless you go

completely crazy and ignore the very clear signs you'd get if you

took too much. The only non-surgical treatment I know of for

sphincter atrophy is ginger juice. If you google reflux and ginger

juice you'll find a protocol that recommends 1 teaspoon taken upon

rising every day for three weeks. That didn't work for me. Several

months of taking 1-2 tablespoons with each meal, however, did.

It could also be that your body will eventually adapt to the higher

levels of fat you're consuming, but if I were you, I'd be proactive

and try a course of ginger juice. You could also try a challenge

test for hypochlorhydria, again being cautious.

-

[Guest guest]

A_L-

>if you want to raise hcl levels drink alot of strong lemonade

This can be problematic due to the sugar level of lemonade. Also, it

doesn't actually affect stomach HCl levels to my knowledge, and while

taking something acidic with meals can help with reflux, it doesn't

help with digestion.

-

[Guest guest]

> The only non-surgical treatment I know of for

> sphincter atrophy is ginger juice. If you google reflux and ginger

> juice you'll find a protocol that recommends 1 teaspoon taken upon

> rising every day for three weeks. That didn't work for me. Several

> months of taking 1-2 tablespoons with each meal, however, did.

,

Would homemade ginger beer have the same effect? I *love* that stuff

and have been planning on making some soon.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

,

I was reading something a while back that said lemons are very high in

chloride. I can't seem to find it now though.

You can always make it at home without the sugar - more like lemon

water but I like it that way.

-Lana

On 11/15/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> This can be problematic due to the sugar level of lemonade. Also, it

> doesn't actually affect stomach HCl levels to my knowledge, and while

> taking something acidic with meals can help with reflux, it doesn't

> help with digestion.

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Lana-

>Would homemade ginger beer have the same effect? I *love* that stuff

>and have been planning on making some soon.

I haven't tried it, but I doubt it. Ginger beer just isn't nearly as

concentrated or potent as the juice, and it also has some residual

sugar, which might tend to counteract the sphincter-rehabilitation

effects of the ginger content. I'm not saying not to drink some dry

unpasteurized ginger beer (I plan to make some myself after tasting

it at the conference!) but if you have reflux, I can only recommend a

hardcore treatment regimen with the juice of the very best organic

ginger you can possibly find.

-

[Guest guest]

Also, it

> doesn't actually affect stomach HCl levels to my knowledge, and while

> taking something acidic with meals can help with reflux, it doesn't

> help with digestion.

drink it on an empty stomach super strong. it worked very well for me. after a

month or two my stomach acid was strong and i could digest meats no problem.

sugar is optional. use molasses or raw honey for a sweetener if desired.

the reflux is a separate but related issue. unless it is a serious problem with

the esophogas or stomach, then it is most likely caused by congested liver/gall

bladder. the stomach is not happy emptying contents into the small intestine

when the liver/gb is severely congested. a tip off that this is likely your

problem is that the original poster noticed light colored stools.

this is a tricky problem to get a hold on because it can be cyclical. increasing

fat in meals can trigger alot of movement in the liver or gb. this might

initiate a cleansing or stimulation of old material or stones, or it could be

that the high fat is just just compatible with him at the moment. i've talked to

people who have intermittent periods of bile congestion.

[Guest guest]

Lana-

>I was reading something a while back that said lemons are very high in

>chloride. I can't seem to find it now though.

Maybe, but that's not necessarily going to help with stomach acid,

and IIRC (author of _Why Stomach Acid Is Good For You_) states

that it won't help with absorption of protein. Also, there's some

indication that extra chloride isn't a healthy thing.

-

[Guest guest]

A_L-

>drink it on an empty stomach super strong. it worked very well for

>me. after a month or two my stomach acid was strong and i could

>digest meats no problem. sugar is optional. use molasses or raw

>honey for a sweetener if desired.

This is interesting, but even if lemon juice works just as well as

ginger juice, ginger juice is much healthier and doesn't require any

unhealthy sweetening, so I'd still recommend ginger juice.

>the reflux is a separate but related issue. unless it is a serious

>problem with the esophogas or stomach, then it is most likely caused

>by congested liver/gall bladder.

No, most cases are caused by the parietal cells of the stomach

producing insufficient stomach acid. The lack of acid means the

lower esophageal sphincter doesn't get a strong enough signal to

close completely, and eventually it atrophies. Ginger juice actually

manages to rehabilitate and rebuild that sphincter, though I don't

think anyone knows exactly how.

Perhaps liver and gall bladder congestion can contribute to parietal

malfunction, but I'm not aware of any solid science explaining how,

and restoring parietal acid production is generally not going to be

enough to rehabilitate the sphincter.

>the stomach is not happy emptying contents into the small intestine

>when the liver/gb is severely congested. a tip off that this is

>likely your problem is that the original poster noticed light colored stools.

Reflex often has nothing to do with stomach emptying, but it has

everything to do with the function of the lower esophageal

sphincter. If the sphincter is strong and gets the signal to close,

your stomach can work on food for as long as needed without any

reflux. If it's weak and atrophied, it can't.

According to , 90% of reflux is due to hypochlorhydria.

-