Re: RIP Leg Extensions & Curls?

[Guest guest]

I would be most interested in learning the state-of-the-art therapeutic

exercises for injured knees as I am sporting PFS in both my knees!

Presently I go to my gym and do a combination of simple exercises (sans

equipment) that my physical therapist assigned to me as well as

incorporating the standard leg curls and extensions.

I'm far from a competitive athlete but am a middle-aged fitness buff with a

growing interest in exercise psychology.

I look forward to any suggestions for recovery-type exercises as this

particular issue hits close to home.

J. Nickless, Ph.D.

University of Rochester Medical Center

Senior Instructor of Psychiatry (Psychology)

300 Crittenden Boulevard

Rochester, NY 14642-8409

From: Mcsiff@...:

It is interesting to note the change of fortunes experienced by different

exercises. Once upon a time, the two standbys for thigh muscle development,

at least for those who were opposed to the use of free weights or the

competitive lifts, were leg extensions and leg curls.

Now, increasing numbers of publications in the therapeutic and scientific

world are stressing the increased risks and ineffectiveness of these

" open chain " exercises for knee rehabilitation or training athletes. These

two exercises now seem to have become largely the preserve of bodybuilding,

some body beautiful personal trainers, research-unaware therapists and a few

die-hard leg machine stalwarts.

There are many articles on this topic out there on this topic. Do any

members have a list of their favourites that they would like to share with

us? ........

[Guest guest]

Squat wall slides, quad stretches and ham stretches are the most

important exercises. Don't forget proper shoes, retrofitted with orthoses, if

indicated.

RTH,MD

FAAOS,FACSM,FAOSSM,FICS,AASP

herrickclinic@...

www.herrickclinic.com

---------------

Dassie <DassieSM@...>

> Retrograde treadmill work if the way to go to get back fastest.

> See http://www.accelerationproducts.com

--------------------

" Nickless, " <cynthia_nickless@...> wrote:

> I would be most interested in learning the state-of-the-art therapeutic

> exercises for injured knees as I am sporting PFS in both my knees!

>

> Presently I go to my gym and do a combination of simple exercises (sans

> equipment) that my physical therapist assigned to me as well as

> incorporating the standard leg curls and extensions.

>

> I'm far from a competitive athlete but am a middle-aged fitness buff with

> a growing interest in exercise psychology.

>

> I look forward to any suggestions for recovery-type exercises as this

> particular issue hits close to home.

------------------

Mel Siff wrote:

> It is interesting to note the change of fortunes experienced by

> different exercises. Once upon a time, the two standbys for thigh muscle

> development, at least for those who were opposed to the use of free

> weights or the competitive lifts, were leg extensions and leg curls.

>

> Now, increasing numbers of publications in the therapeutic and scientific

> world are stressing the increased risks and ineffectiveness of these

> " open chain " exercises for knee rehabilitation or training athletes. These

> two exercises now seem to have become largely the preserve of bodybuilding,

> some body beautiful personal trainers, research-unaware therapists and a

> few die-hard leg machine stalwarts.

>

> There are many articles on this topic out there on this topic. Do any

> members have a list of their favourites that they would like to share

> with us? ........ >>

[Guest guest]

What I have found to be most effective is to do leg estensions and curls

with rubber tubing while in a standing position and holding the leg up at

about a 45 degree angle (For details see 'Explosive Running')

Dr. Yessis

President Sports Training, Inc.

www.dryessis.com

760-480-0558

---------------------

From: <DassieSM@...>

> Retrograde treadmill work if the way to go to get back fastest.

> See http://www.accelerationproducts.com

--------------------

" Nickless, " <cynthia_nickless@...> wrote:

> I would be most interested in learning the state-of-the-art therapeutic

> exercises for injured knees as I am sporting PFS in both my knees!

>

> Presently I go to my gym and do a combination of simple exercises (sans

> equipment) that my physical therapist assigned to me as well as

> incorporating the standard leg curls and extensions.

>

> I'm far from a competitive athlete but am a middle-aged fitness buff with

> a growing interest in exercise psychology.

>

> I look forward to any suggestions for recovery-type exercises as this

> particular issue hits close to home.

>

>

------------------

Mel Siff wrote:

> It is interesting to note the change of fortunes experienced by

> different exercises. Once upon a time, the two standbys for thigh muscle

> development, at least for those who were opposed to the use of free

> weights or the competitive lifts, were leg extensions and leg curls.

>

> Now, increasing numbers of publications in the therapeutic and scientific

> world are stressing the increased risks and ineffectiveness of these

> " open chain " exercises for knee rehabilitation or training athletes. These

> two exercises now seem to have become largely the preserve of bodybuilding,

> some body beautiful personal trainers, research-unaware therapists and a

> few die-hard leg machine stalwarts.

>

> There are many articles on this topic out there on this topic. Do any

> members have a list of their favourites that they would like to share

> with us? ........ >>

From Lic.Enrique J Vera Luna Wed Sep 06 15:59:26 2000

Return-Path: <enriquevera2000@...>

Received: (qmail 17292 invoked from network); 6 Sep 2000 22:59:24 -0000

Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Sep 2000

22:59:24 -0000

Received: from unknown (HELO jj.) (10.1.10.91) by mta1 with SMTP; 6

Sep 2000 22:59:24 -0000

X-eGroups-Return: enriquevera2000@...

Received: from [10.1.2.25] by jj. with NNFMP; 06 Sep 2000 22:59:21

-0000

X-eGroups-Approved-By: Supertraining@... via web; 06 Sep 2000 22:59:21 -0000

X-eGroups-Edited-By: Supertraining@...

Received: (qmail 17912 invoked from network); 6 Sep 2000 22:46:49 -0000

Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Sep 2000

22:46:49 -0000

Received: from unknown (HELO web802.mail.) (128.11.23.62) by mta3 with

SMTP; 6 Sep 2000 22:46:49 -0000

Received: (qmail 27429 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Sep 2000 22:53:17 -0000

Message-ID: <20000906225317.27428.qmail@...>

Received: from [200.34.232.176] by web802.mail.; Wed, 06 Sep 2000

17:53:17 CDT

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:53:17 -0500 (CDT)

Subject: Triathlon Strength Training.

supertrainingegroups

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

From: Lic.Enrique J Vera Luna

Hello group.

What is a fair approach for in-season Triathlon

Strength Training (IRONMAN) ????

1 day/week strength training ?

2 " " " ?

3 " " " ?

Medicine ball, swiss ball, own body weight training,

circuit training ???

Let me know if some of you are Triathlon coaches.

Thanks a lot...

=====

Lic.Enrique J. Vera Luna

Loma Grande # 2419 Col. Loma Larga 64710 Monterrey N.L Mexico

Tel.Celular 044 8 108 7146

Tel.Particular 52(8)340 8558,

Office 52(8)399 0800 ext.3030

http://www.bajacelular.com.mx/cedetel/frametest.html

e-mail : enriquevera2000@...

http://www.gssiweb.com/

http://www.lactate.com

----------------------

Mel Siff:

*** Just a quick hint to anyone who is hunting for informatio, try the following

metasearch engine:

http://www.metacrawler.com

If you come across something interesting, please send it to the group!

------------------------

[Guest guest]

Dr Siff wrote:

<<.....- or do they still

play a leg conditioning role that is not adequately provided by squats,

straight leg deadlifts, pulls, prone reverse hypers and so forth? In

contemplating these questions, keep in mind the fact that some major muscles

of the front and back of the thigh cross both the knee and the hip joint,

and also manage turning of the thigh and knee inwards and outwards.>>

>>I will be watching this debate with great interest as I work in a gym

>>where the curl and extension are routinely used by body builders, Pt's

>>(including myself) etc.

I tend to use these machines in a single-leg capacity generally after one or

two compound movements have been used ( I am expecting everyone to cringe!).

I note Dr Siff referring to the use of straight leg deadlifts - an exercise

I rarely prescribe, do myself occasionally, and watch our resident physios

cringe at each time another PT puts a client through them. What is the

lists standpoint on this particular exercise? And what is your view, Dr Siff,

on the use of various forms of lunges?

Cheers.

(BSc, BPhEd)

Nutrition & Exercise Consultant

cell. +6421 6543 42

email. jamie_scott@...

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff<Mcsiff@...> wrote:

> .......should we conclude that conventional leg extensions and leg curls

should > RIP (Rest In Peace) and go the way into dinosaurdom?

Dealing primarily with an athletic population, I have little to no

use for leg ext/curl machines except when injury prevents squats,

Deadlifts, etc.

Joe Alden

[Guest guest]

wrote,

>

>I note Dr Siff referring to the use of straight leg deadlifts - an exercise

>I rarely prescribe, do myself occasionally, and watch our resident physios

>cringe at each time another PT puts a client through them. What is the

>lists standpoint on this particular exercise? And what is your view, Dr

>Siff,

>on the use of various forms of lunges?

I like lunges if done explosively - but wait, that is a split snatch...

:^)

I expect the good doctor will like 'em!

Anyhow, in regards to the stiff legged deadlift. Personally, I think they

have their place, especially in the form more commonly called a Romanian or

Keystone deadlift. However, as performed by many people in the gym (ie.

standing on a box, knees locked, back rounded) I think they are potentially

dangerous.

Like many exercises, if performed correctly they are a good exercise. To me

good form means keeping the back arched, the knees slightly bent and

lowering the weight until a good pull is felt in the hamstrings. This is

not a variation I do very often as my hamstring strength is pretty good. I

tend to focus on my weaker hip joint (relatively weaker, that is.)

[Guest guest]

Mcsiff@... wrote:

> It is interesting to note the change of fortunes experienced by

> different exercises. Once upon a time, the two standbys for thigh

> muscle development, at least for those who were opposed to the use

> of free weights or the competitive lifts, were leg extensions and

> leg curls.

And they still build the quads and hamstrings. They don't do much

for the glutes or lower back though.

> Now, increasing numbers of publications in the therapeutic and

> scientific world are stressing the increased risks and

> ineffectiveness of these " open chain " exercises for knee

> rehabilitation or training athletes. These two exercises now seem

> to have become largely the preserve of bodybuilding, some body

> beautiful personal trainers, research-unaware therapists and a few

> die-hard leg machine stalwarts.

Whenever you can't prove your training method is superior (even if it

is), the alternatives are " obviously " dangerous. I don't know why,

but everyone wants to claim everyone else's exercises are dangerous.

> In compiling this sort of list, should we conclude that

> conventional leg extensions and leg curls should RIP (Rest In

> Peace) and go the way into dinosaurdom, like the aerobics slide and

> the hula hoop - or do they still play a leg conditioning role that

> is not adequately provided by squats, straight leg deadlifts,

> pulls, prone reverse hypers and so forth?

They seem to have a place for injured athletes, certainly -- not in

rehabilitating an injured knee, but in working around an injured back

(or whatever).

Also, if someone would finally devise a lying leg extension, it would

be a good way to hit the rectus femoris, since squats and the like

really focus on the vasti, even though runners and kickers probably

need the recturs femoris more.

And as we discussed at length on the hamstring imbalance topic, even

a fairly useless exercise can become useful in the full picture of a

workout routine.

> In contemplating these questions, keep in mind the fact that some

> major muscles of the front and back of the thigh cross both the

> knee and the hip joint, and also manage turning of the thigh and

> knee inwards and outwards.

Someone really should devise an exercise protocol for working joints

from some of those odd angles. After all, a lot of athletic

performance is about enduring forces from those angles, not simply

squatting with perfect symmetry and balance.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________