Re: Frappier Training?

[Guest guest]

Josh wrote:

And how does Frappier differentiate its training protocols among different

athletes in different sports and tasks? How do you train the soccer goalie

vs. the soccer midfielder...or the volleyball middle blocker vs. the

football middle guard (nose tackle) with regard to movement training and

energy system emphasis?

Joe Alden replies:

I am not speaking for but I have seen the same protocols used for

every possible athlete, regardless of age, position, gender, etc. in several

Frappier users.

One of the many issues I have with Frappier's high speed treadmill is the

risk/reward ratio. Just ask pro baseball player Moises Alou who suffered a

season ending hamstring injury in when he missed his footing at 12 mph. I

have seen teenagers running to the point of fatigue without harnesses or

allowances made for falling and being catapulted into adjacent equipment and

people.

In our research of Frappier, we could find no evidence that there existed

any tested strength training protocols that would match with the use of the

high speed training on the treadmill. Programs are generally offered on an

interim basis with no preparatory or follow-on phases.

The plyometric portions rarely include shock training (depth jumps,

drop-rebound jumps, etc) but is mainly addressed with a Plyo-Sled (supine

leg press with high speed weight stack for springing of the platform) or

fixed agility dot drills. I have yet to know of an installation where

OLifts (or their variants) are performed for speed-strength purposes.

Joe Alden

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[Guest guest]

Joe Alden asks:

Would it be fair to assume that the motor engrams are permanently carved

into the neuromuscular system of the athletes? Obviously, they do not have

high speed treadmills in their homes, alternate gyms or at their

professional facilities.

Dassie replies:

I would assume this could be happening, but I think that it needs to be

further researched to verify its occurrence. As with any type of training,

though, if the athlete does not continue training, conditioning, or playing

of some sort, results will be lost.

Then every year they return and performance improves? And that improvement

is carried over?

Dassie:

This has been my experience.

Josh wrote:

And how does Frappier differentiate its training protocols among different

athletes in different sports and tasks? How do you train the soccer goalie

vs. the soccer midfielder...or the volleyball middle blocker vs. the

football middle guard (nose tackle) with regard to movement training and

energy system emphasis?

Joe Alden replies:

I am not speaking for but I have seen the same protocols used for

every possible athlete, regardless of age, position, gender, etc., in several

Frappier users.

Dassie replies:

I modify protocols by adjusting elevation and speed. Run times and

corresponding rest intervals are determined by the goals of the training

(acceleration, speed endurance, aerobic/anaerobic conditioning).

Unfortunately you really can't make a treadmill be position specific in

regard to lateral and vertical movements, but you can't do it with

conventional sprint and sprint loading programs, either.

Joe Alden states:

One of the many issues I have with Frappier's high speed treadmill is the

risk/reward ratio. Just ask pro baseball player Moises Alou who suffered a

season ending hamstring injury in when he missed his footing at 12 mph. I

have seen teenagers running to the point of fatigue without harnesses or

allowances made for falling and being catapulted into adjacent equipment and

people.

Dassie replies:

I've trained over 500 athletes on these treadmills and have never had a fall

or single hamstring pull (this is not a lie and can be validated). I think

this depends on the person doing the spotting and their knowledge of each

athlete's ability level and their ability to teach and instruct the athlete

to get on and off the treadmill correctly. Risk of injury is apparent with

any type of training. I've seen numerous hamstring injuries as a result of

improper warm-ups and inclement weather.

Joe Alden states:

In our research of Frappier, we could find no evidence that there existed

any tested strength training protocols that would match with the use of the

high speed training on the treadmill. Programs are generally offered on an

interim basis with no preparatory or follow-on phases.

Dassie replies:

This would depend and vary from facility to facility. For instance, we

pretest each athlete that comes in and evaluate acceleration (20 dash), speed

(40 yard dash), speed endurance (flying 120 with splits at every 40 yards),

flexibility, gait, basic strength (squat or leg press / bench press / leg

extension / leg curl--hamstring to quad strength ratio, and linear and

vertical power. All of our tests are conducted using an electronic timing

system and Vertec to insure no between tester error occurs. Video camera(s)

are used to film gait and the flexibility and gait evaluations are evaluated

by myself, an orthopedic surgeon and physical therapist. Once these test

have been administered and evaluated, we consult the athlete and possibly

their parents to map out a game plan that is most conducive to their athletic

development. We offer Frappier Acceleration, Introduction to Strength and

Conditioning camps, ground based programs, Olympic lifting plans, plyometric

programs, and SAQ training. Even better, sometimes all of these can be

utilized in a year long periodized plan depending on the athlete and the

sport they are training for.

Joe Alden states:

The plyometric portions rarely include shock training (depth jumps,

drop-rebound jumps, etc.) but is mainly addressed with a Plyo-Sled (supine

leg press with high speed weight stack for springing of the platform) or

fixed agility dot drills. I have yet to know of an installation where

OLifts (or their variants) are performed for speed-strength purposes.

Dassie replies:

You have to realize that stadium steps, uphill runs, and sand runs have all

be used as shock type training for years, but I have noticed that high speed

treadmill running has improved my athlete's hip flexion/extension strength

and overall lower body power more than these old-school (no offense-I still

use them in my ground based programs) methods. Shock training and depth/box

jumps can are utilized with the Frappier programs, but again the extent to

which non-Frappier versions of shock training are used these are used would

vary from facility to facility. You have to remember that many Frappier

locations are run by therapist and athletic trainers that may not be as

schooled as an exercise physiologist or strength and conditioning specialist.

I hope this helps clarify some of the negativity that exists with the

Frappier programs. They are fantastic programs and with the proper

" know-how " can be utilized very effectively with any type of ground-based or

Olympic weight training program. The key is to know how to manipulate the

programs to best suit your athlete. The research is there and has shown that

high speed treadmill running works and works very well, now the question is

how many of you are willing to drop your guard and incorporate it into your

training programs?

Dassie, MS, CSCS

Director of Physical Enhancement

Siouxland Acceleration & Fitness

[Guest guest]

Josh wrote:

As I pose this to the Frappier people. The key...point of fatigue....why I

ask if they are trying to improve acceleration are they running to the point

of fatigue? Muscular endurance....OK....depends on the sport. My volleyball

players have rallies that last an intense 4-8 seconds. Now why I would I want

to tax an entirely different energy system?

Dassie replies:

Not all of us are, so quit judging us in this fashion, unless you know each

of us. I have never attacked anyone and their training plans on this page

and I've noticed that you and Joe have ducked and not responded to many of my

rebuttles, but so be it. I'm still a little foggy on why you and Joe are so

convinced that your ways are the best and that incorporating a high speed

treadmill into a sound, well developed strength and conditioning program can

be so wrong. I'm NOT advocating usage by anyone or everyone, but rather

trying to explain why the programs have worked for me and how I have used

them. Would either of you care to tell me what your training programs

consist of?

Josh wrote:

Yes, 3x10 this 3 x 10 that on the plyo sled/leg press

Dassie replies:

Completely wrong and inaccurate information. The Plyo-Press is a very good

alternative to the squat jump, but with far less injury potential, but again,

as I've said before it is not the one piece of equipment that has all your

answers.

Joe Alden states:

The plyometric portions rarely include shock training (depth jumps,

drop-rebound jumps, etc) but is mainly addressed with a Plyo-Sled (supine

leg press with high speed weight stack for springing of the platform) or

fixed agility dot drills.

Josh wrote:

Fixed dot drills with feet close together standing straight up in about a

non-athletic posture and stance as you can possibly be in. I've stuck my size

13 up the fanny of players who assumed such a position.

I have yet to know of an installation where OLifts (or their variants) are

performed for speed-strength purposes.

Dassie replies:

Have you been to my faciltiy, Don Chu's facility in Castro Valley, Loren

Seagrave's facility in Atlanta, Cris 's facility in Boca Raton,

Parisi's facility??? Or were the facilities you were in mostly rehab

oriented or rehab staffed?

Josh wrote:

Gee Joe, your'e missing the point (smiling). That would take appropriate

space, TIME to teach, and knowledge to teach. It's much easier and profitable

to cart the athletes in like cattle, hand them their workout and have them

jump on a machine). This is a program that can fit in a small area, have

athletic trainers tape ankles on one side of the clinic and be super

trainers on the other side after a crash 2-week course in Fargo, ND... then

sell it to the ignorant public as the best thing since cross-trainers. Oh the

mighty marketing dollar.

Dassie replies:

If I am to take these remarks seriously, then I feel sorely tempted to ask you

for more details which qualify you to make such statements. I might even ask

how did you guys get so knowledgeable. As far as the public being ignorant,

does that include you as well?

Mel, I apologize for the touch of anger here, but I think it may be warranted

after such a statement.

Joe Alden states:

<<In our research of Frappier, we could find no evidence that there existed

any tested strength training protocols that would match with the use of the

high speed training on the treadmill. Programs are generally offered on an

interim basis with no preparatory or follow-on phases.>>

***A few more questions regarding this issue from Dr Mel C Siff

1. Have any of the top sprinters in the USA used Frappier methods as a

dominant part of their training?

Josh wrote:

Mel, you might inquire as to Loren Seagrave's involvement with Frappier. I

believe he had a place in Atlanta. Seagrave was (and perhaps still is)

Donovan 's sprint coach. I won't speak for the man; I only met him once

- but I would lean towards this being a good way to make money AND Donovan

never stepped foot on a SuperTreadmill. I cannot, however, back that

up with factual data.

Dassie replies: Not sure here, Mel.

2. Is most of the improvement noted among lower levels of athlete?

Dassie replies:

Of course, but it is the same with all types of training

Josh:

Seems possible if not likely a non-trained " athlete " comes in, gets timed, is

trained (whether correct or not) and improves...it is then noted as

improvement.

Dassie:

Us uneducated people's just can't teach good sprint mechanics and we's knows

nuthin' about strength and conditioning either, but I do use a Brower

electronic timing system for ALL runs, how many out there use hand helds and

are absolutley sure that they started and stopped it the same way both

times???

Mel Siff:

3. Is there any research which shows that Frappier is superior to other

forms of sprint training?

Dassie:

I'm not totally sure, Mel, and I would like to see studies done to substantiate

it to everyone. I am willing to bet my results from utilizing this treadmill

will work just as well, if not better and in less time. Also if space and

facilities are an issue, that treadmill is your best bet. Not all us have

access to a lot of space to do conventional sprint training over longer than

say 60 yards and repeated 20's, 40's and 60's with varying rest intervals

will only show results for so long.

Josh:

Frappier can supply plenty...is it published in peer-reviewed journals and if

so what are the controls?

Dassie, MS, CSCS

Director of Physical Enhancement

Siouxland Acceleration & Fitness

(712) 279-3905

[Guest guest]

Dassie asks:

I'm still a little foggy on why you and Joe are so

convinced that your ways are the best and that incorporating a high speed

treadmill into a sound, well developed strength and conditioning program can

be so wrong.

Joe Alden replies:

First, I never said my way is the best. Second, rather than rely on your

experiences, why not quote the scientific and researched evidence that

Frappier so profusely provided you when you bought into the system? Surely

you feel very comfortable with it. Why else would you spend well over

$100,000 for a distributorship? Certainly not because it just looked sexy.

You need to take this discussion to the strenght/sport science level where

the sport scientists on this group can debate the merits, fallacies, etc.

Fair enough?

Dassie asks:

Would either of you care to tell me what your training programs consist of?

Alden answers:

Certainly. Give me all the parameters of the athlete you would like to

discuss and I will be happy to respond.

But let's put this in perspective. The training protocols I use have been

around for years and are well accepted, frequently discussed. OLifts, shock

training, periodisation......none of these involve the novel use of the

high-speed treadmill or " canned " approaches to training developed by a PT

(Frappier). This is one of several reasons Frappier is under such scrutiny

here.

Dassie states:

The Plyo-Press is a very good

alternative to the squat jump, but with far less injury potential

Joe Alden replies:

I could only agree in the case of a post rehab athlete who is " inching " his

way back to play. Other than that, it is not a reasonable alternative at

all.

Dassie states:

Have you been to my faciltiy, Don Chu's facility in Castro Valley, Loren

Seagrave's facility in Atlanta, Cris 's facility in Boca Raton,

Parisi's facility??? Or were the facilities you were in mostly rehab

oriented or rehab staffed?

I have been to Ripken's, Seagraves, 's and Parisi's and others as

well. They are staffed with all types and kinds.

Dassie spoke tongue-in-cheek:

Us uneducated people's just can't teach good sprint mechanics and we's knows

nuthin' about strength and conditioning either......

Joe Alden finishes by saying:

Well, 'nuff said there.

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[Guest guest]

I have to disagree about the " Plyo press "

-On the topic of " safety " the sob gave me some of the worst knee pain

I've ever experienced, and I regularly perform box squats Louie

style with well over 400 lbs, as well as no kneewraps/

beltless sets of front squats nearly as heavy with no knee pain whatsoever.

-Next, I think the " plyo press " is just another example of how

Americans and marketing can take a relatively good idea and turn it

into complete rubbish.

Since this exercise doesn't fit into the

scientific category of plyometrics (the jumps have a coupling time

of " forever " ), and its other function (leg press/calf raise, the old

quads/calves school of thought) is essentially a waste of time, as

biomechanical analysis of the vertical jump show the power to be

primarily generated by the posterior chain(glutes,hams,lowback) and

the arm swing, with a relatively insignificant contribution coming

from the quads and calves.

-Ben Brownsberger

[Guest guest]

DassieSM@... wrote:

> Joe Alden states:

> One of the many issues I have with Frappier's high speed treadmill

> is the risk/reward ratio. Just ask pro baseball player Moises Alou

> who suffered a season ending hamstring injury in when he missed his

> footing at 12 mph. I have seen teenagers running to the point of

> fatigue without harnesses or allowances made for falling and being

> catapulted into adjacent equipment and people.

I've seen some ugly, ugly falls -- but miraculously no one got hurt.

> Dassie replies:

> I've trained over 500 athletes on these treadmills and have never

> had a fall or single hamstring pull (this is not a lie and can be

> validated).

I think the injuries are much more likely for younger " athletes " who

may or may not have great motor skills and for anyone running near

exhaustion.

Matt Madsen

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