Re: My Inspra experience - dose, time and blood pressure , DASH diet

[Guest guest]

Keep trying to work up on Inspra. Spiro is no faster.

On Mar 19, 2008, at 9:39 AM, Valarie wrote:

> That is my intention at some point. 6.25 mg Inspra wouldn't bother me.

> I'm

> adjusting to 12.5 now but it will take too long to get high enough for

> control. Having my BP up on and on just adds to the anxiety. I can

> barely

> deal with the thought of trying to find another endo right now. This

> one

> took two months to get in. If spiro is fast, why not use it now and

> worry

> about a gradual change-over at a later time? I am concerned about the

> long-term interaction of spiro and female hormones, but that is not

> the

> immediate problem.

>

> I can't eat any less salt. Last night, we had spaghetti sauce made

> with no

> salt added tomatoes, red peppers, onions and some organic beef. Can't

> get

> any lower than that.

>

> I was concerned yesterday that BP might have increased since dropping

> the

> diazide but it had to have been a blip measurement. Last night it was

> back

> to where it normally is (too high but not stroke level - I hope).

> Says to

> me that the diazide probably wasn't doing anything.

>

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Dave

>

> Val, most in here (myself included) had to taper up slowly at 6.25mg

> increments. If any distress, back off for a few more days or a week,

> and the body seems to adapt for the next jump.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes. I am in the middle of a taper-up inspra, taper-down spiro. At

46.5mg inspra, I had to back off the latest 6.25mg jump for another week

due to sleep deprivation. Many who'd done it have said this might happen.

On the comment about the spaghetti. The " added " part puzzles me. How

much sodium is already in the noodles, sauce ('organic' beef may have

some for preservation), etc - all ingredients - before any " adding. "

There is some in many foods constitutionally, and mfg's and packers

" add " some for various reasons before it ever gets to the market. And

they have varied rules for saying what's been " added. " That's why the

label term " added " is meaningless as measurement.

's started their line of " healthy " soups with TOTAL sodium on the

label, and sure enough, it tests out in the lab. When the term is

" added, " it's all over the place. We saw that in a website that did the

testing - in messages.

The DASH formula is to discover all ingested sodium from all sources in

a day, and keep it at 1500 mg or a little less. To start the

discipline. We record our BP and K as we go, and balance that w/our

aldo blocker to achieve optimum (say, 120/80 BP and 4.0 K). Mine ended

up at 2400mg w/37mg spiro. More salt, more spiro needed. Less, and BP

and K became labile, or jumped around. Those two levels made it good

AND stable (luckily). That's just me tho. Each person has to do the

discipline for themselves. There is quite a bit of variation in our

stories.

Valarie wrote:

>

> That is my intention at some point. 6.25 mg Inspra wouldn't bother me. I'm

> adjusting to 12.5 now but it will take too long to get high enough for

> control. Having my BP up on and on just adds to the anxiety. I can barely

> deal with the thought of trying to find another endo right now. This one

> took two months to get in. If spiro is fast, why not use it now and worry

> about a gradual change-over at a later time? I am concerned about the

> long-term interaction of spiro and female hormones, but that is not the

> immediate problem.

>

> I can't eat any less salt. Last night, we had spaghetti sauce made with no

> salt added tomatoes, red peppers, onions and some organic beef. Can't get

> any lower than that.

>

> I was concerned yesterday that BP might have increased since dropping the

> diazide but it had to have been a blip measurement. Last night it was back

> to where it normally is (too high but not stroke level - I hope). Says to

> me that the diazide probably wasn't doing anything.

>

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of Dave

>

> Val, most in here (myself included) had to taper up slowly at 6.25mg

> increments. If any distress, back off for a few more days or a week,

> and the body seems to adapt for the next jump

>

[Guest guest]

The tomatoes were Kroger " no salt added " , 20 mg/half cup. On the

ingredients label, it lists calcium chloride (as a firming agent). The only

way to get lower would be to make it out of fresh tomatoes. Prepared " low

salt " spaghetti sauce sends me into an anxiety episode. Everything else in

the sauce was fresh - red peppers and onions. The meat was buffalo, 60 mg/4

ozs. The spaghetti was " Naturally Preferred Organic " with 0 mg salt.

The whole issue of eating low salt is to cook, cook, cook. I just noticed a

can of celery soup in the cupboard - 's Healthy Request. 1/2 C =

430 mg. A cup of that would send me into anxiety.

Speaking of additives. My DDIL is Celiac. We have to be very careful with

the Thanksgiving turkey. They pump them full of fillers and plumpers. All

the fillers have gluten.

You're taking the whole Inspra dose in the morning? Sleep issues still?

Not encouraging for me. Sleep is my big issue.

Val

From: hyperaldosteronism

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Dave

Yes. I am in the middle of a taper-up inspra, taper-down spiro. At

46.5mg inspra, I had to back off the latest 6.25mg jump for another week

due to sleep deprivation. Many who'd done it have said this might happen.

On the comment about the spaghetti. The " added " part puzzles me. How

much sodium is already in the noodles, sauce ('organic' beef may have

some for preservation), etc - all ingredients - before any " adding. "

There is some in many foods constitutionally, and mfg's and packers

" add " some for various reasons before it ever gets to the market. And

they have varied rules for saying what's been " added. " That's why the

label term " added " is meaningless as measurement.

's started their line of " healthy " soups with TOTAL sodium on the

label, and sure enough, it tests out in the lab. When the term is

" added, " it's all over the place. We saw that in a website that did the

testing - in messages.

The DASH formula is to discover all ingested sodium from all sources in

a day, and keep it at 1500 mg or a little less. To start the

discipline. We record our BP and K as we go, and balance that w/our

aldo blocker to achieve optimum (say, 120/80 BP and 4.0 K). Mine ended

up at 2400mg w/37mg spiro. More salt, more spiro needed. Less, and BP

and K became labile, or jumped around. Those two levels made it good

AND stable (luckily). That's just me tho. Each person has to do the

discipline for themselves. There is quite a bit of variation in our

stories.

[Guest guest]

Sleep was only affected in 2 out of 7 of my 6.25mg jumps at the

beginning. The other 5 jumps no effect. Be encouraged, as my and all

the other taperers have reported the sleep problems go away if you back

off any jump and let the body have a little more time to adapt to the

last jump. Works for me!

When I use the soup, I take a small fraction with my other food. I

can't think f it as a meal unto itself. On the anxiety, how much

NATURAL activity/walking around do you get in a day? Stanford's anxiety

research crew finds the more of that their pts get, the less the

episodes occur. If they get 5000 steps per day on the pedometer, none

on avg. Deliberate exercise, gym etc seems to be less affective. Or,

you have to do more than the avg bear.

That caught my attention when I was over there. Also, that they

recommend alternating cartoid/carotid rubbing (NEVER together), ice

water and a brisk walk to stop any panic attack or anxiety episode.

Interesting.

Valarie wrote:

>

> The tomatoes were Kroger " no salt added " , 20 mg/half cup. On the

> ingredients label, it lists calcium chloride (as a firming agent). The

> only

> way to get lower would be to make it out of fresh tomatoes. Prepared " low

> salt " spaghetti sauce sends me into an anxiety episode. Everything else in

> the sauce was fresh - red peppers and onions. The meat was buffalo, 60

> mg/4

> ozs. The spaghetti was " Naturally Preferred Organic " with 0 mg salt.

>

> The whole issue of eating low salt is to cook, cook, cook. I just

> noticed a

> can of celery soup in the cupboard - 's Healthy Request. 1/2 C =

> 430 mg. A cup of that would send me into anxiety.

>

> Speaking of additives. My DDIL is Celiac. We have to be very careful with

> the Thanksgiving turkey. They pump them full of fillers and plumpers. All

> the fillers have gluten.

>

> You're taking the whole Inspra dose in the morning? Sleep issues still?

> Not encouraging for me. Sleep is my big issue.

>

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of Dave

>

> Yes. I am in the middle of a taper-up inspra, taper-down spiro. At

> 46.5mg inspra, I had to back off the latest 6.25mg jump for another week

> due to sleep deprivation. Many who'd done it have said this might happen.

>

> On the comment about the spaghetti. The " added " part puzzles me. How

> much sodium is already in the noodles, sauce ('organic' beef may have

> some for preservation), etc - all ingredients - before any " adding. "

> There is some in many foods constitutionally, and mfg's and packers

> " add " some for various reasons before it ever gets to the market. And

> they have varied rules for saying what's been " added. " That's why the

> label term " added " is meaningless as measurement.

>

> 's started their line of " healthy " soups with TOTAL sodium on the

> label, and sure enough, it tests out in the lab. When the term is

> " added, " it's all over the place. We saw that in a website that did the

> testing - in messages.

>

> The DASH formula is to discover all ingested sodium from all sources in

> a day, and keep it at 1500 mg or a little less. To start the

> discipline. We record our BP and K as we go, and balance that w/our

> aldo blocker to achieve optimum (say, 120/80 BP and 4.0 K). Mine ended

> up at 2400mg w/37mg spiro. More salt, more spiro needed. Less, and BP

> and K became labile, or jumped around. Those two levels made it good

> AND stable (luckily). That's just me tho. Each person has to do the

> discipline for themselves. There is quite a bit of variation in our

> stories.

>

>

[Guest guest]

You mean no faster in controling BP & K, or no faster in tapering in?

For me spiiro caused no side efx at all, but it took some doing to

titrate w/DASH. Inspra creates massive side efx.

Val's point about spiro's potential interaction with estrogens is in the

lit though. . .inspra is not supposed to have the sex hormone

interactions. . .but still block aldo. I wonder if inspra's hormone

interactivity is tied in some way to the relatively fewer side efx?

This is the RAAS chem lab in our bodies, and I for one am still baffled

about " the hormone symphony. " Your slideshow in FILES does lay it out

clearly - so far as we know. . .

Clarence Grim wrote:

>

> Keep trying to work up on Inspra. Spiro is no faster.

>

> On Mar 19, 2008, at 9:39 AM, Valarie wrote:

>

> > That is my intention at some point. 6.25 mg Inspra wouldn't bother me.

> > I'm

> > adjusting to 12.5 now but it will take too long to get high enough for

> > control. Having my BP up on and on just adds to the anxiety. I can

> > barely

> > deal with the thought of trying to find another endo right now. This

> > one

> > took two months to get in. If spiro is fast, why not use it now and

> > worry

> > about a gradual change-over at a later time? I am concerned about the

> > long-term interaction of spiro and female hormones, but that is not

> > the

> > immediate problem.

> >

> > I can't eat any less salt. Last night, we had spaghetti sauce made

> > with no

> > salt added tomatoes, red peppers, onions and some organic beef. Can't

> > get

> > any lower than that.

> >

> > I was concerned yesterday that BP might have increased since dropping

> > the

> > diazide but it had to have been a blip measurement. Last night it was

> > back

> > to where it normally is (too high but not stroke level - I hope).

> > Says to

> > me that the diazide probably wasn't doing anything.

> >

> > Val

> >

> > From: hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of Dave

> >

> > Val, most in here (myself included) had to taper up slowly at 6.25mg

> > increments. If any distress, back off for a few more days or a week,

> > and the body seems to adapt for the next jump.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

The lower side effects with Inspra at least long term, are the reason

many are moving to that if spiro is not tolerated

On Mar 19, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Dave wrote:

> You mean no faster in controling BP & K, or no faster in tapering in?

> For me spiiro caused no side efx at all, but it took some doing to

> titrate w/DASH. Inspra creates massive side efx.

>

> Val's point about spiro's potential interaction with estrogens is in

> the

> lit though. . .inspra is not supposed to have the sex hormone

> interactions. . .but still block aldo. I wonder if inspra's hormone

> interactivity is tied in some way to the relatively fewer side efx?

> This is the RAAS chem lab in our bodies, and I for one am still

> baffled

> about " the hormone symphony. " Your slideshow in FILES does lay it out

> clearly - so far as we know. . .

>

> Clarence Grim wrote:

> >

> > Keep trying to work up on Inspra. Spiro is no faster.

> >

> > On Mar 19, 2008, at 9:39 AM, Valarie wrote:

> >

> > > That is my intention at some point. 6.25 mg Inspra wouldn't

> bother me.

> > > I'm

> > > adjusting to 12.5 now but it will take too long to get high

> enough for

> > > control. Having my BP up on and on just adds to the anxiety. I can

> > > barely

> > > deal with the thought of trying to find another endo right now.

> This

> > > one

> > > took two months to get in. If spiro is fast, why not use it now

> and

> > > worry

> > > about a gradual change-over at a later time? I am concerned about

> the

> > > long-term interaction of spiro and female hormones, but that is

> not

> > > the

> > > immediate problem.

> > >

> > > I can't eat any less salt. Last night, we had spaghetti sauce made

> > > with no

> > > salt added tomatoes, red peppers, onions and some organic beef.

> Can't

> > > get

> > > any lower than that.

> > >

> > > I was concerned yesterday that BP might have increased since

> dropping

> > > the

> > > diazide but it had to have been a blip measurement. Last night it

> was

> > > back

> > > to where it normally is (too high but not stroke level - I hope).

> > > Says to

> > > me that the diazide probably wasn't doing anything.

> > >

> > > Val

> > >

> > > From: hyperaldosteronism

> > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> > > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism

> > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of Dave

> > >

> > > Val, most in here (myself included) had to taper up slowly at

> 6.25mg

> > > increments. If any distress, back off for a few more days or a

> week,

> > > and the body seems to adapt for the next jump.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Yes, I see. The longterm sfx of spiro are lower. That's why I am

changing too. Only the initial adjustment to inspra is harder.

So you mean it is no faster in lowering BP an d bringing K back up.

Dave

Clarence Grim wrote:

>

> The lower side effects with Inspra at least long term, are the reason

> many are moving to that if spiro is not tolerated

> On Mar 19, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Dave wrote:

>

> > You mean no faster in controling BP & K, or no faster in tapering in?

> > For me spiiro caused no side efx at all, but it took some doing to

> > titrate w/DASH. Inspra creates massive side efx.

> >

> > Val's point about spiro's potential interaction with estrogens is in

> > the

> > lit though. . .inspra is not supposed to have the sex hormone

> > interactions. . .but still block aldo. I wonder if inspra's hormone

> > interactivity is tied in some way to the relatively fewer side efx?

> > This is the RAAS chem lab in our bodies, and I for one am still

> > baffled

> > about " the hormone symphony. " Your slideshow in FILES does lay it out

> > clearly - so far as we know. . .

> >

> > Clarence Grim wrote:

> > >

> > > Keep trying to work up on Inspra. Spiro is no faster.

> > >

> > > On Mar 19, 2008, at 9:39 AM, Valarie wrote:

> > >

> > > > That is my intention at some point. 6.25 mg Inspra wouldn't

> > bother me.

> > > > I'm

> > > > adjusting to 12.5 now but it will take too long to get high

> > enough for

> > > > control. Having my BP up on and on just adds to the anxiety. I can

> > > > barely

> > > > deal with the thought of trying to find another endo right now.

> > This

> > > > one

> > > > took two months to get in. If spiro is fast, why not use it now

> > and

> > > > worry

> > > > about a gradual change-over at a later time? I am concerned about

> > the

> > > > long-term interaction of spiro and female hormones, but that is

> > not

> > > > the

> > > > immediate problem.

> > > >

> > > > I can't eat any less salt. Last night, we had spaghetti sauce made

> > > > with no

> > > > salt added tomatoes, red peppers, onions and some organic beef.

> > Can't

> > > > get

> > > > any lower than that.

> > > >

> > > > I was concerned yesterday that BP might have increased since

> > dropping

> > > > the

> > > > diazide but it had to have been a blip measurement. Last night it

> > was

> > > > back

> > > > to where it normally is (too high but not stroke level - I hope).

> > > > Says to

> > > > me that the diazide probably wasn't doing anything.

> > > >

> > > > Val

> > > >

> > > > From: hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> > > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> > > > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> > > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of Dave

> > > >

> > > > Val, most in here (myself included) had to taper up slowly at

> > 6.25mg

> > > > increments. If any distress, back off for a few more days or a

> > week,

> > > > and the body seems to adapt for the next jump.

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I dont think it acts any faster.

On Mar 19, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Dave wrote:

> Yes, I see. The longterm sfx of spiro are lower. That's why I am

> changing too. Only the initial adjustment to inspra is harder.

>

> So you mean it is no faster in lowering BP an d bringing K back up.

>

> Dave

>

> Clarence Grim wrote:

> >

> > The lower side effects with Inspra at least long term, are the

> reason

> > many are moving to that if spiro is not tolerated

> > On Mar 19, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Dave wrote:

> >

> > > You mean no faster in controling BP & K, or no faster in tapering

> in?

> > > For me spiiro caused no side efx at all, but it took some doing to

> > > titrate w/DASH. Inspra creates massive side efx.

> > >

> > > Val's point about spiro's potential interaction with estrogens is

> in

> > > the

> > > lit though. . .inspra is not supposed to have the sex hormone

> > > interactions. . .but still block aldo. I wonder if inspra's

> hormone

> > > interactivity is tied in some way to the relatively fewer side

> efx?

> > > This is the RAAS chem lab in our bodies, and I for one am still

> > > baffled

> > > about " the hormone symphony. " Your slideshow in FILES does lay it

> out

> > > clearly - so far as we know. . .

> > >

> > > Clarence Grim wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Keep trying to work up on Inspra. Spiro is no faster.

> > > >

> > > > On Mar 19, 2008, at 9:39 AM, Valarie wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > That is my intention at some point. 6.25 mg Inspra wouldn't

> > > bother me.

> > > > > I'm

> > > > > adjusting to 12.5 now but it will take too long to get high

> > > enough for

> > > > > control. Having my BP up on and on just adds to the anxiety.

> I can

> > > > > barely

> > > > > deal with the thought of trying to find another endo right

> now.

> > > This

> > > > > one

> > > > > took two months to get in. If spiro is fast, why not use it

> now

> > > and

> > > > > worry

> > > > > about a gradual change-over at a later time? I am concerned

> about

> > > the

> > > > > long-term interaction of spiro and female hormones, but that

> is

> > > not

> > > > > the

> > > > > immediate problem.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can't eat any less salt. Last night, we had spaghetti sauce

> made

> > > > > with no

> > > > > salt added tomatoes, red peppers, onions and some organic

> beef.

> > > Can't

> > > > > get

> > > > > any lower than that.

> > > > >

> > > > > I was concerned yesterday that BP might have increased since

> > > dropping

> > > > > the

> > > > > diazide but it had to have been a blip measurement. Last

> night it

> > > was

> > > > > back

> > > > > to where it normally is (too high but not stroke level - I

> hope).

> > > > > Says to

> > > > > me that the diazide probably wasn't doing anything.

> > > > >

> > > > > Val

> > > > >

> > > > > From: hyperaldosteronism

> > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> > > > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> > > > > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism

> > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> > > > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of Dave

> > > > >

> > > > > Val, most in here (myself included) had to taper up slowly at

> > > 6.25mg

> > > > > increments. If any distress, back off for a few more days or a

> > > week,

> > > > > and the body seems to adapt for the next jump.

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

In terms of speed, for like doses, I don't know. But for me, I can't get

above 12.5 mg/dose. I don't know how long that's going to take to get up to

speed. I remember some on this list saying that spiro worked very quickly.

I feel nothing (except the nausea). No change in BP.

Val

From: hyperaldosteronism

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Dave

Yes, I see. The longterm sfx of spiro are lower. That's why I am

changing too. Only the initial adjustment to inspra is harder.

So you mean it is no faster in lowering BP an d bringing K back up.

[Guest guest]

My issue is more with progesterone. Spiro blocks the effect of

progesterone. Therefore, if using exogenous estrogen, one could develop

endometrial hyperplasia.

Val

From: hyperaldosteronism

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Dave

Val's point about spiro's potential interaction with estrogens is in the

lit though. . .inspra is not supposed to have the sex hormone

interactions. . .but still block aldo. I wonder if inspra's hormone

interactivity is tied in some way to the relatively fewer side efx?

This is the RAAS chem lab in our bodies, and I for one am still baffled

about " the hormone symphony. " Your slideshow in FILES does lay it out

clearly - so far as we know. . .

[Guest guest]

Yes, I use the term " estrogens " in its slang, meaning all of them.

Estrogen and progesterone are the ones most known, except testosterone

which is associated with fat cells around the hips and buttocks. Spiro

may lower that, perhaps to female cheers, especially considering the

slang stereotype of what testosterone does in males. However, low

testosterone plays a role in vision reductions, depression and other

things known - in both sexes.

My interest is all the other steroid and non-steroidal substances about

which less is known. Like you, I worry over what is known. But just

because we know about something doesn't mean there aren't other things

affected when we monkey around with glands, other parts of the

metabolism regulation and hormones generally.

So, inspra seems a bit better due to its (alleged, because applying only

to the known) paucity of hormonal effects. It is new though, and

without a future crystal ball, my unease is only partially palliated.

There are allegedly forms of progesterone & bioavailable estrogen

producing oral substances free from the sfx, but I don't believe it.

Those PBS docs don't cite their sources on that one.

So, as a short-term aldo blocker until inspra can be stepped in with

time for the body to adapt. . .I'm with you.

Dave

Valarie wrote:

>

> My issue is more with progesterone. Spiro blocks the effect of

> progesterone. Therefore, if using exogenous estrogen, one could develop

> endometrial hyperplasia.

>

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of Dave

>

> Val's point about spiro's potential interaction with estrogens is in the

> lit though. . .inspra is not supposed to have the sex hormone

> interactions. . .but still block aldo. I wonder if inspra's hormone

> interactivity is tied in some way to the relatively fewer side efx?

> This is the RAAS chem lab in our bodies, and I for one am still baffled

> about " the hormone symphony. " Your slideshow in FILES does lay it out

> clearly - so far as we know. . .

>

>

[Guest guest]

For me spiro worked quickly once I got the right amt onboard. Before

that, nothing. Then all of a sudden w/DASHing I hit 37mg and bam, BP

dropped overnight from 150-160/90-95 to 118/68 and has stayed there all

day and night for 2.5 yrs. For my body, it seemed as if it wanted only

37mg or wouldn't co-operate.

Now I'm doing the slow inspra taper-in, shaving off proportionate amts

of spiro. BP : stable K: stable.

dave

Valarie wrote:

>

> In terms of speed, for like doses, I don't know. But for me, I can't get

> above 12.5 mg/dose. I don't know how long that's going to take to get

> up to

> speed. I remember some on this list saying that spiro worked very quickly.

> I feel nothing (except the nausea). No change in BP.

>

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of Dave

>

> Yes, I see. The longterm sfx of spiro are lower. That's why I am

> changing too. Only the initial adjustment to inspra is harder.

>

> So you mean it is no faster in lowering BP an d bringing K back up.

>

[Guest guest]

I need to backtrack. I am feeling something. I quit triam/HCTZ as of last

Friday - so off five days. I'm swelling, particularly in the ankles.

Tonight, I took a full 25 mg Inspra and had only mild nausea so maybe

there's hope.

The swelling is not excessive but, of course, is troubling.

Val

> I feel nothing (except the nausea). No change in BP.

[Guest guest]

Progesterone can occupy the MC receptor and aldosterone cannot get to

the receptor. So Progest is an aldo antagonist. As spiro acts at the

same receptor they may have interactions that have not been well

studies. This is why in many with PA the PA BP improves during

pregnancy.

..

On Mar 19, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Valarie wrote:

> My issue is more with progesterone. Spiro blocks the effect of

> progesterone. Therefore, if using exogenous estrogen, one could

> develop

> endometrial hyperplasia.

>

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Dave

>

> Val's point about spiro's potential interaction with estrogens is in

> the

> lit though. . .inspra is not supposed to have the sex hormone

> interactions. . .but still block aldo. I wonder if inspra's hormone

> interactivity is tied in some way to the relatively fewer side efx?

> This is the RAAS chem lab in our bodies, and I for one am still

> baffled

> about " the hormone symphony. " Your slideshow in FILES does lay it out

> clearly - so far as we know. . .

>

>

[Guest guest]

There is a mutation in the MC receptor in which progesterone occupies

it and acts like Aldo. These women get very hypertensive during

pregnancy.

On Mar 19, 2008, at 8:36 PM, Dave wrote:

> Yes, I use the term " estrogens " in its slang, meaning all of them.

> Estrogen and progesterone are the ones most known, except testosterone

> which is associated with fat cells around the hips and buttocks. Spiro

> may lower that, perhaps to female cheers, especially considering the

> slang stereotype of what testosterone does in males. However, low

> testosterone plays a role in vision reductions, depression and other

> things known - in both sexes.

>

> My interest is all the other steroid and non-steroidal substances

> about

> which less is known. Like you, I worry over what is known. But just

> because we know about something doesn't mean there aren't other things

> affected when we monkey around with glands, other parts of the

> metabolism regulation and hormones generally.

>

> So, inspra seems a bit better due to its (alleged, because applying

> only

> to the known) paucity of hormonal effects. It is new though, and

> without a future crystal ball, my unease is only partially palliated.

>

> There are allegedly forms of progesterone & bioavailable estrogen

> producing oral substances free from the sfx, but I don't believe it.

> Those PBS docs don't cite their sources on that one.

>

> So, as a short-term aldo blocker until inspra can be stepped in with

> time for the body to adapt. . .I'm with you.

>

> Dave

>

> Valarie wrote:

> >

> > My issue is more with progesterone. Spiro blocks the effect of

> > progesterone. Therefore, if using exogenous estrogen, one could

> develop

> > endometrial hyperplasia.

> >

> > Val

> >

> > From: hyperaldosteronism

> > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> > [mailto:hyperaldosteronism

> > <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of Dave

> >

> > Val's point about spiro's potential interaction with estrogens is

> in the

> > lit though. . .inspra is not supposed to have the sex hormone

> > interactions. . .but still block aldo. I wonder if inspra's hormone

> > interactivity is tied in some way to the relatively fewer side efx?

> > This is the RAAS chem lab in our bodies, and I for one am still

> baffled

> > about " the hormone symphony. " Your slideshow in FILES does lay it

> out

> > clearly - so far as we know. . .

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yes. What is BP on your multiple daily measurements? You getting K

tested? The liquid retention matches mine (PA) when I got off HCTZ, and

so does the absence of feeling VERY ill from almost any source. Enough

exercize (esp the normal movement type) and sodium restraint may just do

the trick. It is worth some adaptation to get inspra onboard, I believe.

Valarie wrote:

>

> I need to backtrack. I am feeling something. I quit triam/HCTZ as of last

> Friday - so off five days. I'm swelling, particularly in the ankles.

> Tonight, I took a full 25 mg Inspra and had only mild nausea so maybe

> there's hope.

>

> The swelling is not excessive but, of course, is troubling.

>

> Val

> > I feel nothing (except the nausea). No change in BP.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Swelling almost always requires excess salt in the diet. Has your

weight increased?

I recommend looking at EVERYTHING you are eating or drinking and taking

to see where the Na is coming from.

On Mar 20, 2008, at 2:32 AM, Dave wrote:

> Yes. What is BP on your multiple daily measurements? You getting K

> tested? The liquid retention matches mine (PA) when I got off HCTZ,

> and

> so does the absence of feeling VERY ill from almost any source. Enough

> exercize (esp the normal movement type) and sodium restraint may just

> do

> the trick. It is worth some adaptation to get inspra onboard, I

> believe.

>

> Valarie wrote:

> >

> > I need to backtrack. I am feeling something. I quit triam/HCTZ as

> of last

> > Friday - so off five days. I'm swelling, particularly in the ankles.

> > Tonight, I took a full 25 mg Inspra and had only mild nausea so

> maybe

> > there's hope.

> >

> > The swelling is not excessive but, of course, is troubling.

> >

> > Val

> > > I feel nothing (except the nausea). No change in BP.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Does progesterone have any effect on blood test results for aldo or renin?

So, with someone with PA, wouldn't taking progesterone be beneficial?

Val

From: hyperaldosteronism

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim

Progesterone can occupy the MC receptor and aldosterone cannot get to

the receptor. So Progest is an aldo antagonist. As spiro acts at the

same receptor they may have interactions that have not been well

studies. This is why in many with PA the PA BP improves during

pregnancy.

On Mar 19, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Valarie wrote:

> My issue is more with progesterone. Spiro blocks the effect of

> progesterone. Therefore, if using exogenous estrogen, one could

> develop

> endometrial hyperplasia.

[Guest guest]

Dave, it is comforting to hear you retained water after dropping the HCTZ.

My BP has been running ~165/100 to ~150/95. On triam/HCTZ it was about the

same. I couldn't see that triam/HCTZ ever made any improvement. Also have

blips up to ~180/105. I am soooooooo limiting salt. Yesterday, I had only

fruit and a green vegetable drink during the day. Chicken soup with fresh

vegetables and no salt at dinner.

Exercise has been difficult because of the sweats and weakness. I took a

10-minute walk about 1.5 weeks ago. Seven minutes out the sweats started

and I got so weak, I worried about getting back home. Since then, I've been

doing just 10-minute light calisthenics sessions. I figure a little moving

is better than none. Moving around brings on the weakness and sweats.

I'm supposed to have K tested after two weeks on Inspra.

I tolerated 25 mg Inspra with dinner last night Also, I finally slept last

night for a full eight hours, but still had the sweats in the early a.m. I

am trying to limit Ativan but did take 1 mg last night. Sleep is an amazing

thing! I will try another 25 mg Inspra again this morning.

This is my third day with no Synthroid (thyroid).

I need to tell you what I've been doing. I was getting desperate when endo

didn't call back. Tuesday, I started some Mutka Vati (herbscancure.com),

four per day. This morning, BP is ~134/84. The first reading was 128/78.

Whether MV helped or Inspra kicked in, I don't know. Whether that's a

trend, I don't know. I'll keep checking. I've had those lower blips

before. Anxiety is less (but I slept).

Ducking (and grasping at straws),

Val

From: hyperaldosteronism

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Dave

Yes. What is BP on your multiple daily measurements? You getting K

tested? The liquid retention matches mine (PA) when I got off HCTZ, and

so does the absence of feeling VERY ill from almost any source. Enough

exercize (esp the normal movement type) and sodium restraint may just do

the trick. It is worth some adaptation to get inspra onboard, I believe.

Valarie wrote:

>

> I need to backtrack. I am feeling something. I quit triam/HCTZ as of last

> Friday - so off five days. I'm swelling, particularly in the ankles.

> Tonight, I took a full 25 mg Inspra and had only mild nausea so maybe

> there's hope.

>

> The swelling is not excessive but, of course, is troubling.

[Guest guest]

I don't know enough to be a sole info source. You must seek a doctor.

If the weakness is that bad I'd go to a clinic and let them check me

over - look at K, maybe get some short-term K-dur if it's low. The

diuretic takes it out by the mechanism Dr Grim described. You never

know, something else may be going on.

I would not shock myself too suddenly when dropping the drug. The body

is used to certain levels and practices. Any shock can send it

reeling. I'd drink low-sodium V8 and/or OJ and not go too low on sodium

either. 1500mg/day or so. My case is one person with a different body

and Hx. My retention went away after a few days, progressively. I was

not counting total Na consumption then either. I just stopped HCTZ

because it made me so ill, arrhythmia.

Didn't change much else - a day of catching up on sleep. Yes, if I get

sedentary things get worse too. Sweating is a normal thing w/moving. I

want to sweat each day in exercise. At least 30 min walking. With the

back surgery that is not w/o pain. Did you get weakness w/exercise

before the diuretic? My diuretic drove my pressure up too. I let them

talk me into trying it 3 times. I was as ignorant of PA as they.

The sleep is a pleasant indicator, no?

Dave

The Valarie wrote:

>

> Dave, it is comforting to hear you retained water after dropping the HCTZ.

> My BP has been running ~165/100 to ~150/95. On triam/HCTZ it was about the

> same. I couldn't see that triam/HCTZ ever made any improvement. Also have

> blips up to ~180/105. I am soooooooo limiting salt. Yesterday, I had only

> fruit and a green vegetable drink during the day. Chicken soup with fresh

> vegetables and no salt at dinner.

>

> Exercise has been difficult because of the sweats and weakness. I took a

> 10-minute walk about 1.5 weeks ago. Seven minutes out the sweats started

> and I got so weak, I worried about getting back home. Since then, I've

> been

> doing just 10-minute light calisthenics sessions. I figure a little moving

> is better than none. Moving around brings on the weakness and sweats.

>

> I'm supposed to have K tested after two weeks on Inspra.

>

> I tolerated 25 mg Inspra with dinner last night Also, I finally slept last

> night for a full eight hours, but still had the sweats in the early a.m. I

> am trying to limit Ativan but did take 1 mg last night. Sleep is an

> amazing

> thing! I will try another 25 mg Inspra again this morning.

>

> This is my third day with no Synthroid (thyroid).

>

> I need to tell you what I've been doing. I was getting desperate when endo

> didn't call back. Tuesday, I started some Mutka Vati (herbscancure.com),

> four per day. This morning, BP is ~134/84. The first reading was 128/78.

> Whether MV helped or Inspra kicked in, I don't know. Whether that's a

> trend, I don't know. I'll keep checking. I've had those lower blips

> before. Anxiety is less (but I slept).

>

> Ducking (and grasping at straws),

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism

> <mailto:hyperaldosteronism%40>] On Behalf Of Dave

>

> Yes. What is BP on your multiple daily measurements? You getting K

> tested? The liquid retention matches mine (PA) when I got off HCTZ, and

> so does the absence of feeling VERY ill from almost any source. Enough

> exercize (esp the normal movement type) and sodium restraint may just do

> the trick. It is worth some adaptation to get inspra onboard, I believe.

>

> Valarie wrote:

> >

> > I need to backtrack. I am feeling something. I quit triam/HCTZ as of

> last

> > Friday - so off five days. I'm swelling, particularly in the ankles.

> > Tonight, I took a full 25 mg Inspra and had only mild nausea so maybe

> > there's hope.

> >

> > The swelling is not excessive but, of course, is troubling.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes but with the many fold increase in progest with pregnancy most

would not feel well and would not be easy to get that much in. Other

problems with long term progest as I recall.

On Mar 20, 2008, at 9:07 AM, Valarie wrote:

> Does progesterone have any effect on blood test results for aldo or

> renin?

>

> So, with someone with PA, wouldn't taking progesterone be beneficial?

>

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim

>

> Progesterone can occupy the MC receptor and aldosterone cannot get to

> the receptor. So Progest is an aldo antagonist. As spiro acts at the

> same receptor they may have interactions that have not been well

> studies. This is why in many with PA the PA BP improves during

> pregnancy.

>

> On Mar 19, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Valarie wrote:

>

> > My issue is more with progesterone. Spiro blocks the effect of

> > progesterone. Therefore, if using exogenous estrogen, one could

> > develop

> > endometrial hyperplasia.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Spiro may appear to work more quickly because I usually start at 100 mg

per day which would be 200 mg per day of Inspra.

In severe cases I have even started at 400 mg spiro per day and then

backed down.

On Mar 19, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Valarie wrote:

> In terms of speed, for like doses, I don't know. But for me, I can't

> get

> above 12.5 mg/dose. I don't know how long that's going to take to get

> up to

> speed. I remember some on this list saying that spiro worked very

> quickly.

> I feel nothing (except the nausea). No change in BP.

>

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Dave

>

> Yes, I see. The longterm sfx of spiro are lower. That's why I am

> changing too. Only the initial adjustment to inspra is harder.

>

> So you mean it is no faster in lowering BP an d bringing K back up.

>

>

[Guest guest]

and dont forget the Matra: for aldo to do its damage one has to eat

excess salt. Not salt no high blood pressure, cardiac and renal

fibrosis etc.

On Mar 20, 2008, at 9:07 AM, Valarie wrote:

> Does progesterone have any effect on blood test results for aldo or

> renin?

>

> So, with someone with PA, wouldn't taking progesterone be beneficial?

>

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim

>

> Progesterone can occupy the MC receptor and aldosterone cannot get to

> the receptor. So Progest is an aldo antagonist. As spiro acts at the

> same receptor they may have interactions that have not been well

> studies. This is why in many with PA the PA BP improves during

> pregnancy.

>

> On Mar 19, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Valarie wrote:

>

> > My issue is more with progesterone. Spiro blocks the effect of

> > progesterone. Therefore, if using exogenous estrogen, one could

> > develop

> > endometrial hyperplasia.

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Mar 20, 2008, at 10:23 AM, Valarie wrote:

> Dave, it is comforting to hear you retained water after dropping the

> HCTZ.

A misconception is that you retain water after stopping HCTZ.

You retain sodium and the water is retained to keep the blood sodium in

range.

So if you stop HCTZ and do not eat excess salt you do not swell or

retain water or gain weight. Unless you are drinking heavy water I

suppose.

The reason you retain after HCTZ is that the sodium depletion that

occurs with a diuretic (if you are eating excess sodium) activates the

RAAS and increases aldo.

When you stop the RAAS needs to retain Na to come back into balance.

If you eat no sodium you can';t retain any.

> My BP has been running ~165/100 to ~150/95. On triam/HCTZ it was

> about the

> same. I couldn't see that triam/HCTZ ever made any improvement. Also

> have

> blips up to ~180/105. I am soooooooo limiting salt. Yesterday, I had

> only

> fruit and a green vegetable drink during the day. Chicken soup with

> fresh

> vegetables and no salt at dinner.

>

> Exercise has been difficult because of the sweats and weakness. I

> took a

> 10-minute walk about 1.5 weeks ago. Seven minutes out the sweats

> started

> and I got so weak, I worried about getting back home. Since then,

> I've been

> doing just 10-minute light calisthenics sessions. I figure a little

> moving

> is better than none. Moving around brings on the weakness and sweats.

>

> I'm supposed to have K tested after two weeks on Inspra.

>

> I tolerated 25 mg Inspra with dinner last night Also, I finally slept

> last

> night for a full eight hours, but still had the sweats in the early

> a.m. I

> am trying to limit Ativan but did take 1 mg last night. Sleep is an

> amazing

> thing! I will try another 25 mg Inspra again this morning.

>

> This is my third day with no Synthroid (thyroid).

>

> I need to tell you what I've been doing. I was getting desperate when

> endo

> didn't call back. Tuesday, I started some Mutka Vati

> (herbscancure.com),

> four per day. This morning, BP is ~134/84. The first reading was

> 128/78.

> Whether MV helped or Inspra kicked in, I don't know. Whether that's a

> trend, I don't know. I'll keep checking. I've had those lower blips

> before. Anxiety is less (but I slept).

>

> Ducking (and grasping at straws),

> Val

>

> From: hyperaldosteronism

> [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Dave

>

> Yes. What is BP on your multiple daily measurements? You getting K

> tested? The liquid retention matches mine (PA) when I got off HCTZ,

> and

> so does the absence of feeling VERY ill from almost any source. Enough

> exercize (esp the normal movement type) and sodium restraint may just

> do

> the trick. It is worth some adaptation to get inspra onboard, I

> believe.

>

> Valarie wrote:

> >

> > I need to backtrack. I am feeling something. I quit triam/HCTZ as

> of last

> > Friday - so off five days. I'm swelling, particularly in the ankles.

> > Tonight, I took a full 25 mg Inspra and had only mild nausea so

> maybe

> > there's hope.

> >

> > The swelling is not excessive but, of course, is troubling.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dave, you're a dear to continue to respond to my postings. I'm going

through a transition and trying to understand and deal as much as I can. It

helps to know that withdrawing a diuretic may only temporarily cause more

water retention.

I'm watching it all carefully and will go in if I get too scared. I did go

to ER in December with terrible anxiety, sweats, very high BP and low K. I

have high ded health ins and that little trip cost $2,300. ouchie

I have done strenuous exercise while on the diuretic (since 2002), but I've

gotten worse the last three years and especially, the last nine months. I

welcome normal sweating; its these episodes of sweating and weakness that

get to me. Interestingly, while I zombied out on Ativan, the sweats were

considerably lessened. 'course, I was too zombied out to do anything.

I took 25 mg Inspra last night after dinner w/o much nausea and another 25

mg this morning w/ only a touch of nausea. Meanwhile, doc finally called

spiro in. I'm just going to play this day by day. If I can continue the

Inspra, I will. I'd like to see what its going to do.

Yes, sleep is a very pleasant thing. I'm pretty convinced that my anxiety

is directly related to BP level. I've had other times when it blips down

and the anxiety lifts. I feel semi decent today.

Val

Look at this green drink: http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1

<http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1 & pid=8230> & pid=8230 It is

just freeze dried plants you could grow in your garden. No added stuff like

iodine, salt, Echinacea, etc. Seems like a good way to get a hefty serving

of K.

From: hyperaldosteronism

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Dave

I don't know enough to be a sole info source. You must seek a doctor.

If the weakness is that bad I'd go to a clinic and let them check me

over - look at K, maybe get some short-term K-dur if it's low. The

diuretic takes it out by the mechanism Dr Grim described. You never

know, something else may be going on.

I would not shock myself too suddenly when dropping the drug. The body

is used to certain levels and practices. Any shock can send it

reeling. I'd drink low-sodium V8 and/or OJ and not go too low on sodium

either. 1500mg/day or so. My case is one person with a different body

and Hx. My retention went away after a few days, progressively. I was

not counting total Na consumption then either. I just stopped HCTZ

because it made me so ill, arrhythmia.

Didn't change much else - a day of catching up on sleep. Yes, if I get

sedentary things get worse too. Sweating is a normal thing w/moving. I

want to sweat each day in exercise. At least 30 min walking. With the

back surgery that is not w/o pain. Did you get weakness w/exercise

before the diuretic? My diuretic drove my pressure up too. I let them

talk me into trying it 3 times. I was as ignorant of PA as they.

The sleep is a pleasant indicator, no?