Re: Hinze's results, and the training/nutrition programs of elite athletes

[Guest guest]

> From: " Hamish Ferguson " <bikecoach@...>

>

> From: " Krieger " <jkrieger@...>

> > So are you saying that if Hamish Ferguson doesn't know an athlete, that

> > athlete must not be a serious athlete?

>

> Did I say that?

Here is how the conversation progressed.

BOB: " So, my final question is, why in the hell would anyone use this

diet?? It seems to have no value for serious athletes. "

JAMES: " So are you saying that Jim Hinze is not a serious athlete? It

seems to be

of tremendous value to him. "

HAMISH: " For the benefit of others. Who is Jim Hinze and if he is so great

why don't

I know him? "

By replying to my comment about Jim being a serious athlete with " if he is

so great why don't I know him, " it definitely sounded like you were saying

he was not serious.

> What is his World Ranking? How has this ranking improved since he has been

> using a Keto Diet?

So only the training or diet programs of people who are world ranked matter?

I find this viewpoint extremely narrow minded, if not counterproductive.

Just because someone is world ranked doesn't make their training or

nutrition philosophy the best for other athletes.

> HF: Hey Jim I am not trying to denigrate what sounds like some pretty good

> improvements and success in Powerlifting but heck as a coach if I claimed

> success for any training modality based on the results of one or two

people

> I would be laughed at.

There are a lot more people out there than just one or two who have used

keto diets. If keto diets were not successful, they truly would have been a

" fad " diet and probably wouldn't even be a topic of discussion on this list.

> Take the Matt Biondi example. It's not that Matt does lots of LSD training

> to achive success in swimming it's that nearly all swimmers do this.

That was exactly my point about tradition. Even elite athletes do things by

tradition so just because someone is ranked #1 in the world doesn't make

their training or nutrition program great.

I've got another perfect example. I lift at the varsity weight room here at

WSU. Dan O'Brien lifts there to, so I see him work out all of the time

(although not recently because I think he is injured). You should see this

guy lift. His form is absolutely horrible, and his lifting program is

somewhat haphazard. There's nothing scientific about his program at all.

Yet he was ranked #1 in the world for a long time. So does that mean other

athletes should give up their lifting programs and do what Dan does? I

mean, look how successful he has been. According to you, Hamish, we should

look at the training and nutrition programs of elite athletes to determine

what we should do. So throw your workout logs out the window and heave

weights ballistically around for reps of 20-30 and we'll be performing just

like Dan.

Just because a coach trains an elite athlete doesn't mean he/she knows a lot

either. Track coach Rick Sloan is Dan's coach here at WSU. Maybe more

athletes should follow Rick Sloan's advice. Oh, wait a second. The entire

track team here at WSU follows his advice. Yet I don't see the track team

here winning the PAC-10's. I'm not saying Rick is a bad coach. But his

training methods are obviously not the main reason Dan has been successful.

The fact is, Dan O'Brien is elite because he has the genes. While his

training and nutrition program will aid him, it is still the genes which

determine someone's ultimate potential. Dan would probably be elite under

any decent track coach.

>We

> might never question this approach till we see the success of the Dutch

> swimmers who use more weight training and short interval work.

But the Dutch swimmers achieved success because someone had the nerve to go

against the grain...to the question the popular dogma (which is what some of

us on this list have been doing about keto diets...questioning what many

people say about these diets). And it took years for finally someone to do

something different. Maybe the reason you don't see keto diets

for some types of elite athletes is because no one has had the guts to go

against the grain?

Did you ever think that one of the reasons you may not see elite Olympic or

powerlifters

using keto diets is because of, either:

1. Their nutrition programs aren't well advertised so we have no idea

2. Their coaches are afraid to experiment and see how they work because of

the stigma that has been placed on these diets.

Pay particular attention to #2. Part of the reason you may not see some

types of athletes using keto diets who might benefit from them is because

they're afraid to try them! A very negative stigma has been placed against

these diets. Also, with so many nutritionists who adhere blindly to

tradition, and given that some of these nutritionists are hired to do

nutrition programs for elite athletes, of course many elite athletes are not

going to be using keto diets! The non-elite athletes, like Jim, end up

using them because they don't have coach or nutritionist looking over their

shoulder telling them what they should or shouldn't do. So they have room

to experiment. And so far Jim's experimentation has been very successful

for him.

JK

[Guest guest]

Krieger <jkrieger@...> wrote:

> I've got another perfect example. I lift at the varsity weight

> room here at WSU. Dan O'Brien lifts there to, so I see him work

> out all of the time (although not recently because I think he is

> injured). You should see this guy lift. His form is absolutely

> horrible, and his lifting program is somewhat haphazard. There's

> nothing scientific about his program at all.

Wow. I wouldn't expect that.

> Yet he was ranked #1 in the world for a long time. So does that

> mean other athletes should give up their lifting programs and do

> what Dan does? ...So throw your workout logs out the window and

> heave weights ballistically around for reps of 20-30 and we'll be

> performing just like Dan.

Maybe he is onto something though. Just because heaving weights

ballistically is " cheating " doesn't mean it's bad.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________