Power Training - Dynamic Method

[Guest guest]

Brett Blaney <mpakt@...> wrote:

> I have the exact same question surrounding boxing and punching

> dynamics. I realize with Olympic Lifts there would a general or

> overall gain in speed and power, but if the movement in the lift

> doesn't specifically mimic the movement used in the sport, how well

> does the gains in power translate to the sport. In this case

> punching power.

I wouldn't expect the Olympic lifts to carry over particularly well

to boxing -- especially since hip and thigh hypertrophy can count

against you quite a bit at weigh-in.

> I've had the same question regarding improving hitting power in

> baseball or softball. In both cases power is generated from a

> twisting motion generated in the hips and continued through the

> torso. Most lifts do not mimic this motion.

Very true. On the other hand, the twisting muscles, the obliques,

are worked very hard by squats and deadlifts, even though there's no

twisting involved. On hand deadlifts, cleans, etc., might be

surprisingly specific. I'd consider the one-hand hang clean & press

and one-hand snatch.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Joe Alden <joealden@...> wrote:

> It would seem that OL's would favor the complete (or near complete)

> use of the body's neuromuscular capabilities at speed and under

> load. Their benfit would not be tied to motion speciicity.

Right, but they'd carry over to some activities more than to others.

Various medicine ball throws and one-arm lifts might have similar,

but more specific benefits.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Brett Blaney <mpakt@...> wrote:

> Back to the original point, will Olympic Lifting because of its

> explosive nature, create a harder punch, more homeruns, or faster

> serve? If it does, is it the best choice of training method to

> accomplish those goals? I realize that is a simplification, but do

> you get my point?

Explosive, whole-body movements against resistance may be a good way

to train, but the Olympic lifts don't seem particularly specific to

punching, throwing, serving, swinging, etc. Ideally you'd have

explosive lifts on a horizontal plane while standing, but gravity

doesn't generally oblige you.

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

> I wouldn't expect the Olympic lifts to carry over particularly well

> to boxing

So you're saying that the increased strength in the neck, upper back

and abdominal muscles from the Olympic lifts would not help a

fighter withstand punches?

> On hand deadlifts, cleans, etc., might be

> surprisingly specific. I'd consider the one-hand hang clean & press

> and one-hand snatch.

Do you know any elite fighters who perform the one-hand clean and

press or the one-hand snatch as core exercises in their training?

Thank you,

Kim Goss

[Guest guest]

From: " Burkhardt " <emburkha@...>

>Are you saying Frappier is actually putting resistance against the hand!!??

>That might be good if baseballs were 15 pounds!!

I have seen the bands attached by a sleeve to the upper arm. As the thrower

accelerates the arm, the Frappier trainer " increases/decreases " resistance

by pulling on the unattached ends of the bands. Resistance varies

considerably and, if you are not careful, the thrower can be " banded " in the

face. I fear for rotators.

Joe Alden

Atlanta USA

[Guest guest]

A variation of this method with bands and wrist and ankle straps attached to

walls etc. is also used to develop speed when shooting take downs for

amateur/catch as catch can/folk wrestling.

JoeL

----------

From: " Burkhardt " <emburkha@...>

>Are you saying Frappier is actually putting resistance against the hand!!??

>That might be good if baseballs were 15 pounds!!

From: Joe Alden [mailto:joealden@...]

I have seen the bands attached by a sleeve to the upper arm. As the thrower

accelerates the arm, the Frappier trainer " increases/decreases " resistance

by pulling on the unattached ends of the bands. Resistance varies

considerably and, if you are not careful, the thrower can be " banded " in the

face. I fear for rotators.

[Guest guest]

A couple of points that have not been considered - I don't question the

value of Olympic lifts with throwers and other athletes, but this is only one

part of their total power production. Throwers typically get their power

from three body parts, the legs, trunk rotation, and arm action. In many

cases they are equal. In the USA, emphasis is on the Olympic lifts in the

throws, while in Europe, more emphasis is place on rotation or

combinational training.

This goes back to some of my previous posts in regard to understanding

technique and how we can improve through specific training. There is no

one best type of training and this includes the Olympic lifts. In fact, when

time is of the essence, I avoid the Olympic lifts because of the learning

factor. I prefer to use other speed strength methods, as it brings about

faster improvement in explosive leg power.

Once when one understands what is involved in technique, then there should be

emphasis on all of the force producing actions. This requires a multitude

of different trainings.

Dr. Yessis

President Sports Training, Inc.

www.dryessis.com

760-480-0558

----- Original Message -----

From: <COACHKIMGOSS@...>

Matt Madsen <mmadsen@y...> wrote:

>

> > Explosive, whole-body movements against resistance may be a good way

> > to train, but the Olympic lifts don't seem particularly specific to

> > punching, throwing, serving, swinging, etc.

>

> So you're saying the best shot putters, discus and hammer throwers in

> the world are waisting their time on the Olympic lifts? That perhaps

> they'd be better off throwing medicine balls or performing speed

> deadlifts?

>

> Having trained many nationally-ranked throwers, witnessed the

> training of many of best throwers in the world, studied articles

> about their training and even interviewed top throwing coaches, I

> would appreciate it if you would name several elite throwers who do

> not use the Olympic lifts.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Kim Goss

>

[Guest guest]

A couple of points that have not been considered - I don't question the

value of Olympic lifts with throwers and other athletes, but this is only one

part of their total power production. Throwers typically get their power

from three body parts, the legs, trunk rotation, and arm action. In many

cases they are equal. In the USA, emphasis is on the Olympic lifts in the

throws, while in Europe, more emphasis is place on rotation or

combinational training.

This goes back to some of my previous posts in regard to understanding

technique and how we can improve through specific training. There is no

one best type of training and this includes the Olympic lifts. In fact, when

time is of the essence, I avoid the Olympic lifts because of the learning

factor. I prefer to use other speed strength methods, as it brings about

faster improvement in explosive leg power.

Once when one understands what is involved in technique, then there should be

emphasis on all of the force producing actions. This requires a multitude

of different trainings.

Dr. Yessis

President Sports Training, Inc.

www.dryessis.com

760-480-0558

----- Original Message -----

From: <COACHKIMGOSS@...>

Matt Madsen <mmadsen@y...> wrote:

>

> > Explosive, whole-body movements against resistance may be a good way

> > to train, but the Olympic lifts don't seem particularly specific to

> > punching, throwing, serving, swinging, etc.

>

> So you're saying the best shot putters, discus and hammer throwers in

> the world are waisting their time on the Olympic lifts? That perhaps

> they'd be better off throwing medicine balls or performing speed

> deadlifts?

>

> Having trained many nationally-ranked throwers, witnessed the

> training of many of best throwers in the world, studied articles

> about their training and even interviewed top throwing coaches, I

> would appreciate it if you would name several elite throwers who do

> not use the Olympic lifts.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Kim Goss

>

[Guest guest]

COACHKIMGOSS@... wrote:

Matt Madsen <mmadsen@y...> wrote:

> > Explosive, whole-body movements against resistance may be a good

> > way to train, but the Olympic lifts don't seem particularly

> > specific to punching, throwing, serving, swinging, etc.

>

> So you're saying the best shot putters, discus and hammer throwers

> in the world are wasting their time on the Olympic lifts?

I thought it was clear we were discussing baseball and football

throwing, not track & field.

At any rate, saying something isn't specific doesn't mean it's bad;

it just means it's incomplete or imperfect.

> That perhaps they'd be better off throwing medicine balls or

> performing speed deadlifts?

Perhaps they would be better off adding such movements. Of course,

throwing a medicine ball is more than a bit redundant for someone

already throwing a heavy implement.

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

COACHKIMGOSS@... wrote:

Matt Madsen <mmadsen@y...> wrote:

> > Explosive, whole-body movements against resistance may be a good

> > way to train, but the Olympic lifts don't seem particularly

> > specific to punching, throwing, serving, swinging, etc.

>

> So you're saying the best shot putters, discus and hammer throwers

> in the world are wasting their time on the Olympic lifts?

I thought it was clear we were discussing baseball and football

throwing, not track & field.

At any rate, saying something isn't specific doesn't mean it's bad;

it just means it's incomplete or imperfect.

> That perhaps they'd be better off throwing medicine balls or

> performing speed deadlifts?

Perhaps they would be better off adding such movements. Of course,

throwing a medicine ball is more than a bit redundant for someone

already throwing a heavy implement.

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

COACHKIMGOSS@... wrote:

Matt Madsen <mmadsen@y...> wrote:

> > I wouldn't expect the Olympic lifts to carry over particularly

> > well to boxing

>

> So you're saying that the increased strength in the neck, upper

> back and abdominal muscles from the Olympic lifts would not help a

> fighter withstand punches?

Sure, but the extra 20 lbs of glutes and thigh would hurt at weigh-in.

Hang cleans might make a good addition, as might overhead presses,

and I've already suggested one-handed variation of both, but I

wouldn't say the standard Olympic lifts are very specific at all to

boxing.

A boxer needs pecs, delts, triceps, serrati, obliques, etc., more

than glutes, hams, and quads -- and in a weight-classed sport, extra

muscle is a measurable impediment.

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

" Dr. Yessis " <dryessis@d...> wrote:

<<In fact, when time is of the essence, I avoid the Olympic lifts

because of the learning factor. I prefer to use other speed strength

methods, as it brings about faster improvement in explosive leg power.

Kim Goss <COACHKIMGOSS@...> responded:

Basic technique for the push press and hang power clean can be taught

in the first training session. I've had many athletes achieve basic

technique for the power clean in the first session, as I'm sure many

other strength coaches in this newsgroup. And I'm certain with your

extensive training knowledge and experience, you certainly have the

ability to teach the lifts quickly. Just my opinion.>>

Josh adds: And you can add Snatch or High Pulls (Skill transfer exercises

for the Snatch and clean) to this easy-to-learn list that still has a total

body essence to it.

Josh Katz

513.474.7465

800.244.2316

jkatz1@...

PREP Performance

info@...

http://www.prepperformance.com

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> I would use OLs for baseball pitching as a means of increasing the

> leg/hip actions involved as well as building trunk strength. As

> you already full well know Joe, ball velocity is the result of sum of

> body actions that precede the release. The leg/hip interaction

> with the ground is obviously a big part of that which OLs will

> probably improve.

Matt Madsen's reply...

<<Right, but what would you do for the upper body?>>

Burkhardt...

Nothing - out of the ordinary that is. In addition to a general strength

program (garden variety pressing and pulling movements) I'd just place extra

emphasis on the structures responsible for repetitive arm decelerations. As

I mentioned above, I think the ball velocity has more, if not everything to

do with the muscular actions that occur well before release - pretty much

everything below the shoulder girdle. I doubt throwing velocity has much

to do with the muscular performance of the arm and shoulder, even though

outfielders who are masters at " gunning " down base runners at home plate are

described as having a good arm. Matt and others - PLEASE CRITIQUE!!

Thanks.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Matt Madsen wrote:

> I wouldn't expect the Olympic lifts to carry over particularly well

> to boxing -- especially since hip and thigh hypertrophy can count

> against you quite a bit at weigh-in.

1. The olympic lifts do not have benefits limited to the hips and

legs. They do strengthen the lower back to a great extent, as well as

the traps, splenius (neck extensors), shoulders (especially true for

power snatches and push jerk) and upper back muscles.

As any fighting expert and they will undoubtably tell you that strong

traps and neck are very important when it comes to shock absorption.

Strong traps are also key to maintaining a proper fitghing demeanor

(gloves high) during the whole fight. The lower back muscles also

help to dissipate energy from a hit and act, for body shots, much

like the neck and traps for head shots.

I do not have to explain how strong shoulders contribute to striking

power do I?

The olympic lifts also strengthen the abdominal muscles in their

trunk stabilization role. This is especially true for lifts where the

bar is held overhead (snatches, jerks) since the whole abdominal wall

must work hard to stabilize the body and load. At that point the

serratus also comes into play, which is an important muscle for that

final few inches of acceleration during a punch because it is

involved in the abduction of the scapula. In fact the serratus is

sometimes called " the boxer's muscle " .

2. Now, the olympic lifts, because of their explosive nature, do not

develop that much hypertrophy. And even if they do lead to some

hypertrophy (as any resistance exercises), the power and strength

gain relative to the size/weight gain is vastly superior to most

exercises.

Matt Madesn also wrote:

> Very true. On the other hand, the twisting muscles, the obliques,

> are worked very hard by squats and deadlifts, even though there's no

> twisting involved.

1. Well the same goes for cleans, snacthes and especialy jerks. In

fact, I'd venture as far as to say that their action is greater in

the olympic lifts because the movements are explosive and thus

require greater stabilization.

2. You say that one of the downside of the olympic lifts for boxers

is the unnecessary hips/legs hypertrophy yet you say that squats and

deadlifts are good! In my book squats and deadlifts, which are slower

strength exercises than the olympic lifts (most of the time), are

much more prone to lead to great hips/legs hypertrophy than the

olympci lifts. This is not just a supposition, it's an observation

based on my own olympic lifting and that of several hundred olympic

lifters. The fact is that if and olympic lifter stops squatting and

deadlifting entirely and only do the olympic lifts he WILL lose leg

size. No question there.

Pardon my ignorance, but I still can't figure out why you would say

that the olympic lifts are unadequate because they'll lead to

unwanted lower body hypertrophy yet you recommend squats and

deadlifts ... am I missing something?

Matt Madsen concluded:

> On hand deadlifts, cleans, etc., might be

> surprisingly specific. I'd consider the one-hand hang clean & press

> and one-hand snatch.

Hmmm ... How are one hand cleans more specific than regular power

clean? I agree that in boxing you mostly use one hand at a time. But

since the hand hand olympic lifts involve basically the same muscles

as regular olympic lifts, saying that one hand olympic lifts are

specific is akin to saying that the regular olympic lifts are also

specific (at least that they are somewhat specific since the same

prime movers are worked) yet you state that the olympic lifts do not

carry over well to boxing ... hmmmm

Now, I'll concede that one hand lifts develop unilateral strength

very well. I find that the total overload you can place on the prime

movers when using one hand lifts is relatively less than during two

hand lifts (e.g. I can clean 365lbs, but I couldn't one-hand clean

180lbs to save my life). Since you have to use a much lower load in

the one hand lifts:

a. I'd think that the stabilization action of the trunk would be much

less important during one-hand lifts (you trunk has much only 30-40%

of the load to support).

b. The bilateral prime movers would get much less stimulation. Even

if you do one-hand cleans you still exert force with both feet on the

ground. Since the resistance is much less during one-hand lifts I'd

say that the legs don't get as much strength stimulation as in two-

hand movements (where the load is 2-3 times as heavy for the same

lower body action).

Don't take this as a personal attack, it really isn't.

Christian Thibaudeau

Laboratory of Biomechanics and Kinesiology - UQTR

Strength Coach ALE sports academy

Trois-Rivieres, Canada

[Guest guest]

Kim Goss...

<<I've had many athletes achieve basic

technique for the power clean in the first session, as I'm sure many

other strength coaches in this newsgroup.>>

I'm with Kim here. I've had athletes who've performed near perfect or

perfect hang above the knee cleans (HACLs) within 10 minutes. Some have

even achieved beautiful technique by their 2nd or 3rd set!! I think I've

gotten these results because I keep the " hands-on " instruction very simple.

I have kind of a corny/gimmicky way of teaching the HACL.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> I'm with Kim here. I've had athletes who've performed near perfect

> or perfect hang above the knee cleans (HACLs) within 10 minutes.

> Some have even achieved beautiful technique by their 2nd or 3rd

> set!! I think I've gotten these results because I keep the " hands-

> on " instruction very simple. I have kind of a corny/gimmicky way

> of teaching the HACL.

I'll bite. Share.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

COACHKIMGOSS@... wrote:

> Basic technique for the push press and hang power clean can be

> taught in the first training session. I've had many athletes

> achieve basic technique for the power clean in the first session,

> as I'm sure many other strength coaches in this newsgroup. And I'm

> certain with your extensive training knowledge and experience, you

> certainly have the ability to teach the lifts quickly.

I have to agree with Coach Goss that most athletes can perform a

decent hang power clean and/or push press in their first session

trying.

On the other hand, plenty of seemingly athletic people just cannot

learn these simple movements. I wouldn't expect a shotputter or

wrestler to have any problems, but a runner or dancer might. If you

don't normally heave things (or people) around, it doesn't come as

naturally.

Also, if your sport requires explosive leg movements but not

upper-body movements (e.g. running and jumping but not throwing), you

might not have the upper-body strength to properly tax your lower

body with a power clean. An explosive squat or deadlift might be

more appropriate.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

jkatz1 <info@...> wrote:

> And you can add Snatch or High Pulls (Skill transfer exercises

> for the Snatch and clean) to this easy-to-learn list that still

> has a total body essence to it.

When you say " Snatch or High Pulls " , do you mean " High Pulls or The

Snatch " , or do you mean " High Pulls or Snatch Pulls " ?

I can't imagine putting the Snatch on my easy-to-learn list...

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Matt Madsen wrote:

> I can't imagine putting the Snatch on my easy-to-learn list...

>

The snatch might be a rather complex lift. However I find the power

snatch to be the easiest olympic lift to learn and teach. In fact, in

several " weightlifting-oriented countries " the snatch sequence is

learned before the clean sequence.

Of all the athletes I've coached, most of them reported that learning

the power snatch was easier and more stimulating than learning the

power clean.

Christian Thibaudeau

Laboratory of Biomechanics and Kinesioloy - UQTR

Strength Coach ALE Sports Academy

Trois-Rivieres, Canada

[Guest guest]

wrote,

>

>The snatch might be a rather complex lift. However I find the power

>snatch to be the easiest olympic lift to learn and teach. In fact, in

>several " weightlifting-oriented countries " the snatch sequence is

>learned before the clean sequence.

>

>Of all the athletes I've coached, most of them reported that learning

>the power snatch was easier and more stimulating than learning the

>power clean.

I've found the same thing here with wrestlers. They get the idea of power

generation better from the power snatch. For many I may have to go to a

dumbbell snatch.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

Grip it and rip it!

[Guest guest]

Matt Madsen wrote:

> On the other hand, plenty of seemingly athletic people just cannot

> learn these simple movements. I wouldn't expect a shotputter or

> wrestler to have any problems, but a runner or dancer might. If you

> don't normally heave things (or people) around, it doesn't come as

> naturally.

I strongly disagree with this opinion. From my observation (and

logic) athletes involved in highly " motor " sports (gymnastics, figure

skating, dancing, platform diving...), which have much better

proprioception, motor control, spacial orientation and coordination

than most other athletes, are much quicker to learn new motor

patterns (thus new exercises).

Sure, to somebody with little practical experience it might seem that

stronger but less " motor " athletes (football players, rugby players,

hockey players, shot putters ...) might be better learner because

they are able to use a lot more weight (which is not due to superior

learning of the technique, but to their superior strength) than their

" motor " counterparts.

It is a grave mistake to equate weight lifted with technical mastery

of a lift without considering the individual characteristics of the

athlete.

Obviously a gymnast who can (hypothetically) squat 100lbs will be

able to clean much less weight than a football player who can squat

400lbs, that's simple logic. But in fact most ofthe time (if not all

the time) the gymnast will be a) much more efficient: being able to

transfer more of her/his strength into olympic lifts performance

right away much more technically sound lifter in much lesser time.

As I stated earlier, I have worked with however 500 high school

athletes from 18 different sports (my duty was mostly to teach them

the olympic lifts) and I can attest that the quickest learners were:

1) gymnasts 2) figure skaters 3) Dancers 4) Track and field

athletes. The slowest learners were: 1) hockey players (by far) 2)

basketball players 3) football players 4) rugby players.

Of course there were exceptions. I had a 13 years old football player

(running back) clean 155lbs for 5 reps at a bodyweight of 135lbs

after 2 training sessions and do a technically perfect full squat

snatch the first time he tried. I also had a 16 years old football

player (safety) power clean 225lbs at a bodyweight of 170lbs after 3

weeks of training.

The weights themselves are not what's impressive, since weight lifted

DOES NOT equate technical mastery. However both of these athletes

were cleaning over 95% of their squat ... which indicate technical

efficiency in my book. And their technique was almost picture perfect.

On the other hand I had a figure skater that took 3 sessions to learn

how to do a power clean properly.

So learning a new movement occurs at an individual rate. HOWEVER

athletes in sports were complex motor learning is the essence of the

sport ARE advantaged when it comes to learning new movement patterns

(including the olympic lifts).

Matt Madsen also wrote:

> Also, if your sport requires explosive leg movements but not

> upper-body movements (e.g. running and jumping but not throwing),

you

> might not have the upper-body strength to properly tax your lower

> body with a power clean. An explosive squat or deadlift might be

> more appropriate.

Hmmmm ... most upper body involvement in the olympic lifts occur

during the pulling phase (if we are talking about cleans and power

cleans) and that phase *IS* included in explosive deadlifts!!! So

really, in that regard the speed deadlift is really not an adequate

alternative.

And you are not very clear when you say " you might not have the upper-

body strength " ... the upper-body is rather vague ... which muscles

are you referring to?

Are you referring to weak back muscles? Well if the back is too weak

to fully stimulate the legs in a power clean, it will be exactly the

same thing with a speed squat since the whole upper back structure

stabilize the load while the lower back structure is an agonist AND a

stabilizer in the squat (much like in the powerclean).

Are you referring to weak pectoral muscles? These are not

significantly involved in the performance of a power clean or others

olympic lifts.

Are you referring to weak shoulders? Well I could see how this could

be a problem during a jerk or a snatch, but it certainly would be no

problem for the performance of a clean or power clean. A friend of

mine who also compete in olympic lifting has snatched 105kg in

competition and cleaned & jerked 130kg (he's 69kg) yet he cannot

military press 60kg to save his life! The shoulders mostly act to

stabilize the load at the end of a jerk or a snatch, and it doesn't

require that much strength.

Are you referring to weak biceps? Well the biceps do not have such a

large role in the olympic lifts, and certainly not a bigger role than

during speed deadlifts, so I don't see how the SD is more adequate.

Are you referring to weak triceps? I hope not because their role is

similar to the shoulders: to hold the bar in the complete jerk or

snatch position. However they have little direct action outside of

that phase. The triceps are not involved a agonists or stabilizers

during the pulling phase, which is were the olympic lifts have most

of their force application. So weak triceps are not a limiting factor

in the performance of the olympic lifts.

Are you referring to weak abdominals? Well the abs are just as

important during a speed squat or speed deadlift as during a power

clean. So that must not be it.

Are you referring to weak traps muscles? Well, the traps are also

involved during a speed deadlift.

Well ... I'm not going to name every muscle in the upper body ... you

get the point.

The fact remains that the olympic lifts are mainly a hips/lower

back/legs exercise. There will be additional benefits via stimulation

of the shoulder girdle and upper back, but these are certainly not

the prime movers and thus should not be a limiting factors in most

individuals (of course there's always exceptions).

Christian Thibaudeau

Laboratory of Biomechanics and Kinesiology - UQTR

Strength Coach ALE Sport Academy

Trois-Rivieres, Canada

[Guest guest]

> On the other hand, plenty of seemingly athletic people just cannot

> learn these simple movements. I wouldn't expect a shotputter or

> wrestler to have any problems, but a runner or dancer might. If you

> don't normally heave things (or people) around, it doesn't come as

> naturally.

My experience is that individuals (usually females) who've never lifted

weights before learn the OLs much faster. If an individual does have prior

weight training background (usually males), it's been mostly upper body

lifts (i.e. bench and curls). These types will usually try to " muscle " the

bar up with primarily upper body actions, totally destroying sound OL

technique.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> My experience is that individuals (usually females) who've never

> lifted weights before learn the OLs much faster. If an individual

> does have prior weight training background (usually males), it's

> been mostly upper body lifts (i.e. bench and curls). These types

> will usually try to " muscle " the bar up with primarily upper body

> actions, totally destroying sound OL technique.

I've had the hardest time trying to teach women with a typical

lifting (bodybuilding) background. Ego-driven male lifters seem to

hold onto their " cheating " instincts better...

Also, timidity can play a big role. A lot of people seem to be

scared that they'll do it wrong and look bad. And, of course, a

ballistic movement is exactly the kind you can't do timidly. A slow,

cautious clean isn't a clean.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thibaudeau <chris_thibaudeau@...> wrote:

> Matt Madsen wrote:

> > On the other hand, plenty of seemingly athletic people just

> > cannot learn these simple movements. I wouldn't expect a

> > shotputter or wrestler to have any problems, but a runner or

> > dancer might. If you don't normally heave things (or people)

> > around, it doesn't come as naturally.

>

> I strongly disagree with this opinion. From my observation (and

> logic) athletes involved in highly " motor " sports (gymnastics,

> figure skating, dancing, platform diving...), which have much

> better proprioception, motor control, spacial orientation and

> coordination than most other athletes, are much quicker to learn

> new motor patterns (thus new exercises).

Perhaps using " dancer " as an example was bad. There are so many

kinds of dancers.

My point was that some athletes heave things (or people) around

ballistically, while others don't. If you're a wrestler or

shotputter, heaving a barbell isn't too terribly different from what

you do in your sport. If you're an 800-meter runner or an Irish

dancer (or even a strict bodybuilder, in some cases), you may not

have those same skills.

> Sure, to somebody with little practical experience it might seem

> that stronger but less " motor " athletes (football players, rugby

> players, hockey players, shot putters ...) might be better learner

> because they are able to use a lot more weight (which is not due to

> superior learning of the technique, but to their superior strength)

> than their " motor " counterparts.

>

> It is a grave mistake to equate weight lifted with technical

> mastery of a lift without considering the individual

> characteristics of the athlete.

That was NOT my point at all. I was discussing technique carry-over

from sports to weightlifting. Obviously a bigger, stronger athlete

is going to lift more, and that doesn't imply better technique.

> As I stated earlier, I have worked with however 500 high school

> athletes from 18 different sports (my duty was mostly to teach them

> the olympic lifts) and I can attest that the quickest learners

> were:

> 1) gymnasts 2) figure skaters 3) Dancers 4) Track and field

> athletes. The slowest learners were: 1) hockey players (by far) 2)

> basketball players 3) football players 4) rugby players.

That may be confounded by the fact that only a special breed goes

into, say, gymnastics, and sticks with it until the high school

level. There are different selection pressures for those sports.

The athletes aren't purely a result of training effects.

> So learning a new movement occurs at an individual rate. HOWEVER

> athletes in sports were complex motor learning is the essence of

> the sport ARE advantaged when it comes to learning new movement

> patterns (including the olympic lifts).

I don't think we disagree there at all. Again, my point was that

certain athletes ballistically move loads against resistance, and

they've probably picked up decent habits for the Olympic lifts: use

your hips, keep the weight close to your body, get under it, etc.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

wrote,

>

>My experience is that individuals (usually females) who've never lifted

>weights before learn the OLs much faster. If an individual does have prior

>weight training background (usually males), it's been mostly upper body

>lifts (i.e. bench and curls). These types will usually try to " muscle " the

>bar up with primarily upper body actions, totally destroying sound OL

>technique.

This has been my experience over the last week with my wrestlers. Without

exception the young ladies learned the power snatch and clean and jerk

movement very well. The guys - well, it was interesting. Like said,

the power clean is being turned into a cheat reverse curl by most of the

'weightlifters'. Trying to find a balance of enough weight to require

technique and keep some safety considerations involved was challenging. We

don't have bumper plates, so I set up a bunch of mats to dump the weights

on. I'm getting some bumper plates, even though it will come from my own

pocket. Never again will I teach one of these lifts without bumper plates.

I wish I had more experience in the real Olympic lifts. I'm forced to teach

a power version of the clean and snatch just because of my own ignorance.

I'm not sure if I'm teaching the best way, but it is certainly better than

doing curls and bench press for wrestling.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

Grip it and rip it!