Power Training - Dynamic Method

[Guest guest]

Hmm -

I don't think that I learned the OL any quicker than the other trained men

in the group at Mel's house - comment on that one, Mel? I don't think I was

slower to learn either though.....

However, it was quick and I remember being very surprised to find that

snatch not hitting me in the head but properly locked out overhead.....

The Phantom

RE: Power Training - Dynamic Method

> wrote,

>>

>>My experience is that individuals (usually females) who've never lifted

>>weights before learn the OLs much faster. If an individual does have

prior

>>weight training background (usually males), it's been mostly upper body

>>lifts (i.e. bench and curls). These types will usually try to " muscle "

the

>>bar up with primarily upper body actions, totally destroying sound OL

>>technique.

>

>This has been my experience over the last week with my wrestlers. Without

>exception the young ladies learned the power snatch and clean and jerk

>movement very well. The guys - well, it was interesting. Like said,

>the power clean is being turned into a cheat reverse curl by most of the

>'weightlifters'. Trying to find a balance of enough weight to require

>technique and keep some safety considerations involved was challenging. We

>don't have bumper plates, so I set up a bunch of mats to dump the weights

>on. I'm getting some bumper plates, even though it will come from my own

>pocket. Never again will I teach one of these lifts without bumper plates.

>

>I wish I had more experience in the real Olympic lifts. I'm forced to teach

>a power version of the clean and snatch just because of my own ignorance.

>I'm not sure if I'm teaching the best way, but it is certainly better than

>doing curls and bench press for wrestling.

>

> Hobman

>Saskatoon, Canada

>Grip it and rip it!

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<<If you're an 800-meter runner or an Irish

> dancer (or even a strict bodybuilder, in some cases), you may not

> have those same skills.

I work with some young female athletes trained in Irish dancing who

learned basic Olympic lifting technique quickly. Have you ever seen

or tried Irish dancing, Matt? Think of a better example.

Kim Goss

[Guest guest]

>

> I work with some young female athletes trained in Irish dancing who

> learned basic Olympic lifting technique quickly. Have you ever seen

> or tried Irish dancing, Matt? Think of a better example.

****

Most of the time... the difficulty or learning a simple training

movement (the olympic lifts ARE simple compared to most sport

actions) is not the fault of the athlete but rather the fault of the

teacher. With the proper technical knowledge, coaching experience,

pedagocial approach and motivation a teacher should not find himself

" stuck " with an athlete who cannot learn to lift (unless the athlete

has pathological or structural problems of course).

Christian Thibaudeau

Trois-Rivieres, Canada

[Guest guest]

The contributions of various body parts varies greatly among pitchers,

outfielders and infielders. In general the stride and pushoff produce 1/3,

midsection rotation and flexion 1/3 and arm actions 1/3 of the total

force. Some pitchers rely mainly on the legs and arms, others on the body

rotation and arm and so on. Outfielders m ust have all three to throw

long and hard. Infielders rely on shoulder rotation and the arm

actions when in hurry. When you analyze their throws you can then

set up a program specific to key actions or work on improving technique and

their physical abilities

Dr. Yessis

President Sports Training, Inc.

www.dryessis.com

760-480-0558

----- Original Message -----

Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> > I would use OLs for baseball pitching as a means of increasing the

> > leg/hip actions involved as well as building trunk strength. As

> > you already full well know Joe, ball velocity is the result of sum of

> > body actions that precede the release. The leg/hip interaction

> > with the ground is obviously a big part of that which OLs will

> > probably improve.

Matt Madsen's reply...

<<Right, but what would you do for the upper body?>>

Burkhardt...

> Nothing - out of the ordinary that is. In addition to a general strength

> program (garden variety pressing and pulling movements) I'd just place

extra

> emphasis on the structures responsible for repetitive arm decelerations.

As

> I mentioned above, I think the ball velocity has more, if not everything

to

> do with the muscular actions that occur well before release - pretty much

> everything below the shoulder girdle. I doubt throwing velocity has much

> to do with the muscular performance of the arm and shoulder, even though

> outfielders who are masters at " gunning " down base runners at home plate

are

> described as having a good arm. Matt and others - PLEASE CRITIQUE!!

> Thanks.

>

> Burkhardt

[Guest guest]

Matt Madsen wrote:

> > I wouldn't expect the Olympic lifts to carry over particularly

> > well to boxing -- especially since hip and thigh hypertrophy can

> > count against you quite a bit at weigh-in.

Thibaudeau <chris_thibaudeau@...>:

> 1. The olympic lifts do not have benefits limited to the hips and

> legs.

Did somebody say that?

T:

> They do strengthen the lower back to a great extent, as well

> as the traps, splenius (neck extensors), shoulders (especially true

> for power snatches and push jerk) and upper back muscles.

Perhaps " Olympic lifts " was vague. Hang cleans and push jerks would

be decent movements for a boxer.

Pulls from the floor would be far from specific though, and, as I

said, that thigh and hip mass easily adds up on the scale.

T:

> 2. Now, the Olympic lifts, because of their explosive nature, do

> not develop that much hypertrophy.

An athlete who doesn't do much lower-body strength work should expect

some mass gain from even the explosive lifts. As much as from high-rep

squats? No, but it's just plain hard not to put on pounds with

resistance training that hits the thighs and glutes that hard.

T:

> 2. You say that one of the downside of the Olympic lifts for boxers

> is the unnecessary hips/legs hypertrophy yet you say that squats

> and deadlifts are good!

Eh? I don't know what you're talking about.

I conceded that even non-twisting movements can hit the obliques

hard, so athletes that need those twisting muscles might not need

specific twisting weight training.

T:

> a. I'd think that the stabilization action of the trunk would be

> much less important during one-hand lifts (you trunk has much only

> 30-40% of the load to support).

Try it. Try a one-hand dumbbell overhead press vs. an Olympic press.

Heck, try a one-hand dumbbell lateral raise with a trivial weight.

T:

> b. The bilateral prime movers would get much less stimulation. Even

> if you do one-hand cleans you still exert force with both feet on

> the ground. Since the resistance is much less during one-hand lifts

> I'd say that the legs don't get as much strength stimulation as in

> two-hand movements (where the load is 2-3 times as heavy for the

> same lower body action).

Right. We were discussing training a boxer, not a rugby player.

That aspect was a benefit, not a flaw.

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Madsen wrote in reply to my quote:

> > 1. The olympic lifts do not have benefits limited to the hips and

> > legs.

>

> Did somebody say that?

****

You simply said that the olympic lifts would not be beneficial for

boxers ... I was merely pointing out that since the olympic lifts do

involve a lot more muscles than simply the hips and legs, and that

some of these muscles do play an important role in boxing, the

olympic lifts can be useful for the development of the physical

qualities involved in boxing. And thus that gains in the olympic

lifts could offer some transfer to boxing performance.

Madsen wrote:

> Perhaps " Olympic lifts " was vague. Hang cleans and push jerks would

> be decent movements for a boxer.

****

Well that's a start ... However, one should also add the power

snatch, power snatch from the high hang, power snatch from the low

hang, power snatch from high blocks, power snatch from low blocks,

snatch squat, muscle snatch, drop snatch, power clean from high

blocks, power clean from low blocks, clean/snatch pull from the hang,

clean/snatch pull from high blocks, clean/snatch pull from low

blocks, split jerks, push jerks, jerk dip and drive etc. All are

variations of the olympic lifts that can be used for variety and that

carries some benefits for a boxer.

Madsen wrote:

> Pulls from the floor would be far from specific though, and, as I

> said, that thigh and hip mass easily adds up on the scale.

****

It's not all about specificity! Even the less 'supposedly' specific

exercises can have a positive carryover to sporting performance as

long as the exercise develop the muscles involved in the sporting

action or that it involves a complex motor action requiring whole

body synergy aimed at developpinhg maximum power/strength/speed etc.

And you say that thigh and hips mass is gained easily from doing the

olympic lifts (from the floor). I disagree. I *AM* an olympic lifter

and I train with several other olympic lifters and I do pulls,

cleans, snatches, jerks virtually everyday. And if it were not for

all the squatting I do I would not gain much legs and hip size at

all! In fact, when I am in the pre-competition period I usually lose

3-5 pounds (before losing weight for the weigh-in) simply because I

decrease my squatting volume and frequency while I increase my

olympic lifting volume.

I agree that, in the long run, the olympic lifts could develop some

muscle mass if done at a high enough volume of work. Elite olympic

lifter DO have huge legs and some have large hips (mostly in heavier

classes). However it is erroneous to think that starting to use the

olympic lifts will give the athlete huge legs. Do not forget thar

olympic lifters will snatch/clean/squat everyday ... sometimes twice

per day. In fact, most elite lifters lift for around 3-4 hours per

day (some countries even have their national team lifters lift for 6

hours). Elite lifters lift as much as 30 tons in a single training

day! Couple that with the heavy anabolics use of these elite athletes

(as in most elite sports) and it's quite normal that these athletes

DO have a relatively high degree of legs hypertrophy. But still, most

of it come from squatting.

But if an athlete (boxer or else) is to use the olympic lifts as a

mere portion of his training (let's say 5 sets of 3, two times per

week) there will hardly be any hypertrophy stimulated from this

training approach for several reasons:

Zatsiorsky has stated that hypertrophy stimulation is a function of

the degraded muscle protein during training. And that protein

degradation is itself a function of two factors: the rate of

degradation and the time spent degrading. The first is directly

related to the intensity of training, and/or to the muscular tension.

The second factor is a function of the total volume of work.

If you perform extremely high-tension work but for a very low volume

not much hypertrophy will be stimulated. Similarly, if you perform a

high volume but do very low-tension work not much hypertrophy will

be stimulated either. To stimulate a lot of hypertrophy the tension

and volume should be relatively high.

Now:

1. If you keep the reps low on the olympic lifts (which is usually

the case ... most of the time 1-5 reps/set are used), even if you do

a few sets, the volume of work will still be relatively low. If you

do 5 sets of 3 reps with 300lbs on the power clean (which is a

relatively widespread approach) you will have a total volume of 15

reps. Which is very low. The tonnage will also be low (4500lbs)

compared to what can be achieved in other compound movements such as

the squat/deadlift because one can use less weight on the power clean.

2. If one consider time under tension as an important factor in

hypertrophy stimulation, and it seems to be somewhat important, then

the olympic lifts can be even less useful in that regard since, even

in a relatively long set of power clean the TUT will be very low

(below 10 seconds).

3. It is generaly accepted that the eccentric phase of the lift leads

to more muscle damage than the concentric phase which in turns leads

to more hypertrophy stimulation. In " Designing Resistance Training

Programs 2nd Ed. " by Fleck and Kraemer it is said that

eccentric+concentric leads to much more hypertrophy than eccentric or

concentric alone.

Now, the olympic lifts do not have an eccentric portion. At least not

a significant one. So it is logical that they will not stimulate as

much hypertrophy as most exercises.

****

Madsen wrote:

> An athlete who doesn't do much lower-body strength work should

expect

> some mass gain from even the explosive lifts. As much as from high-

rep

> squats? No, but it's just plain hard not to put on pounds with

> resistance training that hits the thighs and glutes that hard.

Sure! If somebody has not done much lower body work he should expect

some gains from explosive lifts. But the same thing could also be

said of jumps, plyometrics and other explosive/ballistic methods of

training.

But realistically how much weight can one expect? For a natural

athlete who is not a beginner it's relatively hard to gain 10 pounds

of muscle in a year of training when using mostly bodybuilding

exercises and methods (which by design develop more total

hypertrophy). So I would think that an athlete who already trains

several hours a week for his sport (boxing), do a lot of cardio work

(as boxers usually do) and uses non-bodybuilding methods of training

(explosive movements, limit strength movements...) would have a hard

time gaining a lot of muscle. And from that already low amount of

gained muscle, how much would directly be caused by the olympic

lifts? The amount is too low to disgard these lifts IMHO.

Madsen wrote:

> I conceded that even non-twisting movements can hit the obliques

> hard, so athletes that need those twisting muscles might not need

> specific twisting weight training.

Yes, but you refered to squats and deadlifts. That if a a boxer uses

squats and deadlifts he doesn't need twisting weight training. So you

are basically advocating doign squats and deads. But these movements

are much more prone to develop mass than the olympic lifts. That was

my point.

Madsen wrote:

> Try it. Try a one-hand dumbbell overhead press vs. an Olympic

press.

> Heck, try a one-hand dumbbell lateral raise with a trivial weight.

***

Hold on there! I'm a competitive olympic lifter and in the past year

I HAVE used SEVERAL 1 hand lifts. Including one hand snatch with a

dumbbell, 1 hand snatch with a bar, 1 hand cleans, 1 hand cleans two

arms at the time, bent press, 1 hand overhead squats, 1 hand

dumbbell swing, 1 hand jerk, 1 hand press, 1 hand split jerk, 1 hand

deadlift, 1 hand overhead barbell support. To name a few. I mostly

use these exercises in the summer to give me a break from the main

olympic lifts/variations. Sure they are a nice change of pace, but

not anywhere near as effective as the olympic lifts and their

variations.

Thibaudeau

Trois-Rivieres, Canada

[Guest guest]

From: " Dr. Yessis " dryessis@d...

>The contributions of various body parts varies greatly among pitchers,

>outfielders and infielders. In general the stride and pushoff produce 1/3,

>midsection rotation and flexion 1/3 and arm actions 1/3 of the total force.

" Joe Alden " <joealden@...> wrote:

During the puish-off/stride phase, doesn't the action provided by the lower

body provide nearly 100% of the force? Isn't this force translated

kinetically until 100% of the force is generated by the wrist movement at

ball release? I would also suggest that the divisions of 1/3 for each

component may be inaccurate.

*** All throwing and striking, in fact, all human movement, involves the

transfer of momentum. Thus, if we examine any instant of a given movement,

we will note that different muscle groups or parts of the body are

contributing different proportions of momentum, energy and power. No part

of the body in rapid or explosive multi-link movement ever contributes 100

percent of anything. One part simply transfers its momentum to another to

provide the cumulative effect which culminates in the final delivery of the

ball. It would even be incorrect to state that a given muscle group should

contribute 100 percent of its potential strength, because optimal, rather

than maximal, contribution is necessary at each stage of the movement.

Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

mcsiff@...