Re: Is Lifting Specific To Your Sport?

[Guest guest]

From: " Matt Madsen " <mmadsen@...>

> > So as I have done on other groups I do on this group question the

> > obsession with weightlifting, powerlifting exercises as the base of

> > an athletes conditioning work.

> I think you've misconstrued things slightly. I think the points

> generally made are:

>

> (a) if you're going to weight train for athletic performance, powerlifting

or weightlifting training generally carries over much better than

bodybuilding training, and

Agreed without a doubt.

> ( many popular sports (especially American football) are largely

anaerobic power sports that benefit from resistance training.

Again agreed. However recent discussions have hinted that many folk do

weightlifting or powerlifting (not bodybuilding) for the sake of it rather

than to enhance performance in their sport or to rectify any weakness. My

point was: 1, that if we are suposedly unclear on technique then how can we

select the best exercises and 2, if technique is such a big issue why do we

not spend more time on it.

Case in point would be weightlifting. Now I assume that all one needs to do

to pass the CSCS is be familiar with the contents of " Essentials of Strength

Training and Conditioning " to lay claim to being a strength and conditioning

coach. Now as anyone who does weightlifting or has a copy of " The

Weightlifting Encyclopedia " knows that there is a heck of a lot to doing and

ten times more to teaching all the Olympic Lifts and assistance lifts.

Now if you take a sport like football or gymnastics where there are a wider

range of skills and techniques required it becomes less clear how solely

relying on two or three Olympic Lifts is going to assist performance and

even correct a weakness especially in gymnastics where athletes take their

joints through such a large range of movements.

If adequate time is being spent addressing skill and technique, apart from

correcting any muscle imbalance problems (in aerobics it is almost the chest

and shoulders doing the work so we find we need to use weights to train the

back) then where does the weight training fit in?

A question I asked on another list is: how many teams lose because of an

ability to Powerclean X amount of weight? Compare this to the numerous times

we see teams and athletes make basic skill and technical errors.

> Perhaps I've missed something, but I haven't seen anyone arguing that

> endurance athletes need power cleans to stay competitive.

This is again true, however I have used powercleans with endurance cyclists.

I am also sure that Hakinnen and others have done research showing that

explosive weight lifting does benefit endurance performance.

Cheers

Hamish

Hamish Ferguson

BA, Dip SpSt, Cert Coaching

Personal Trainer and Cycling Coach

New Zealand Sport Aerobics Representative

ph/fax 64 3 338 7373 and mobile 025 221 1287

email Bikecoach@...

[Guest guest]

" Hamish Ferguson " <bikecoach@c...> wrote:

> I am also sure that Hakinnen and others have done research showing

> that explosive weight lifting does benefit endurance performance.

I wonder whether the bulk of research supports that conclusion, at

least for subjects that are neither sedentary nor novices?

A thoughtful discussion of the theoretical considerations as to how

and when strength training benefits endurance performance is

available online at this address:

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/str & end.htm

With respect to research regarding strength training and endurance

performance, an interesting review of the literature is available

online at this address:

http://www.sportsci.org/news/traingain/resistance.html

I enjoy lifting weights, especially squatting and deadlifting, but

I've been abstaining from those and any other lifts that

substantially involve the legs for the past two years because I'm

afraid it will hamper my performance in cycling. (I do a little

racing at the very lowest amateur level in the U.S.) A decent

workout of squats or deadlifts leaves me fatigued enough that I have

to space my hard cycling workouts further apart than I do when I

abstain from those exercises.

That alone suggests to me that my

cycling performance would not benefit from off-bike resistance

exercise. My cycling performance hasn't seemed to vary when I

compare seasons when I included squats and lunges to those when I

didn't, but there are so many other variables affecting my

performance that I can't draw any reliable conclusions from that.

What's everyone else think?

[Guest guest]

Hello

From: " s " <johnstevens@...>

> That alone suggests to me that my

> cycling performance would not benefit from off-bike resistance

> exercise. My cycling performance hasn't seemed to vary when I

> compare seasons when I included squats and lunges to those when I

> didn't, but there are so many other variables affecting my

> performance that I can't draw any reliable conclusions from that.

>

> What's everyone else think?

That it is difficult for me to base my opinion of weight training for

endurance athletes on your personal experience with weights. My opinion may

be swayed more by the current trend for more Pro teams to use weight

training (Lance even) and the current use of weights by the Australian

Institute of Sport endurance cyclists who use very heavy weight training

(high sets, 1-5 reps) in the early part of their season.

However, the choice to use weights must be made on an individual basis. You

may pick up from my posts that I am against automatically putting everyone

through a programme of weightlifting or powerlifting. Yet, at the moment I

am including deadlifts, squats and split squats in my programme because I

have picked up a weakness in my jumping technique for sport aerobics and

(ther are those words) core strength which I feel powerlifting exercises

will correct the best. This doesn't mean that I think that everyone who does

aerobics should lift weights.

Cheers

Hamish

Hamish Ferguson

BA, Dip SpSt, Cert Coaching

Personal Trainer and Cycling Coach

New Zealand Sport Aerobics Representative

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/8908/index.html

[Guest guest]

Hamish Ferguson <bikecoach@...> wrote:

> Yet, at the moment I am including deadlifts, squats and split

> squats in my programme because I have picked up a weakness in my

> jumping technique for sport aerobics and (there are those words)

> core strength which I feel powerlifting exercises will correct the

> best.

Do you find sports aerobics...aerobic? It all seems quite anaerobic

to me. Cardiovascularly stressful, but anaerobic.

Also, wouldn't power cleans or jump squats fit your needs a bit

better?

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hello

From: " Matt Madsen " <mmadsen@...>

> Do you find sports aerobics...aerobic?

Heh heh, well no. Never ran out of steam in a routine yet. It's a two minute

fitness routine where one mixes aerobic dance (as high intensity as possibe)

with gymnastic moves based on dynamic strength, static strength, jumps and

flexibility.

> Also, wouldn't power cleans or jump squats fit your needs a bit

> better?

Yeah, in time. I think I will do power snatch instead of split squat. My

lower back is pretty weak and I suspect a cause of back and hamstring pain

has been jumping with a rounded back and head high kicks that come from the

back not the hamstrings. Funny enough for a guy who can do the splits but I

really struggle to do a anterior pelvic tilt when deadlifting. I am getting

there and will progress on to more challenging exercises.

Cheers

Hamish

Hamish Ferguson

BA, Dip SpSt, Cert Coaching

Personal Trainer and Cycling Coach

New Zealand Sport Aerobics Representative

ph/fax 64 3 338 7373 and mobile 025 221 1287

email Bikecoach@...

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/8908/index.html

[Guest guest]

Hamish Ferguson <bikecoach@...> wrote:

> " Matt Madsen " <mmadsen@...> wrote:

> > Do you find sports aerobics...aerobic?

>

> Heh heh, well no. Never ran out of steam in a routine yet. It's a

> two minute fitness routine where one mixes aerobic dance (as high

> intensity as possibe) with gymnastic moves based on dynamic

> strength, static strength, jumps and flexibility.

Right. That's what I was getting at. It's quite a misnomer.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hamish Ferguson <bikecoach@...> wrote:

> " Matt Madsen " <mmadsen@...> wrote:

> > Gymnasts get most of their conditioning from gymnastic-specific

> > movements, and they seem to work quite well.

>

> Again my point exactely.

Of course, in the case of gymnasts, many of their sport-specific

training movements are classic resistance training movements:

chin-ups, dips, etc.

> > Football players obviously benefit from squats and cleans whether

> > those movements are considered sport-specific or not.

>

> But what of hours spent learning plays. As a possible scenario a

> Rugby Team in the NZ, AUS, SA Super 12 series spent the early part

> of their season walking through plays. Now this would do little to

> enhance their fitness and prepare them for the upcoming season. I

> see this as a good time to be in the gym.

I assume they're spending plenty of time training hard. They can

only spend so many hours a day (or week) training hard, but they CAN

add more hours of low-intensity strategic/tactical training. Or

they're taking some time off from hard training to recover.

You simply cannot scrimmage eight hours a day without falling apart.

> However in-season you would expect teams to practice these drills

> at 100% intensity.

Not necessarily. You'd only expect them to practice drills at high

intensity some of the time. It's a rough sport.

Think of all the creative ways boxers have to train outside the ring,

because they cannot spar at 100% without taking a beating.

> Do you see a role for resistance training for athletes here?

Sure.

> > Driving off the line is not doing a power clean, but the two

> > movements use roughly the same muscles in similar proportions.

> So what is the best way to improve ones ability to drive off the

> line?

To improve your skill at driving off the line, you obviously want

to...drive off the line. Most of this is done against padded

blocking shields though, so the defensive line (and the blocking

offensive line as well) isn't just taking a pounding every practice.

But that skill is just one component. Adding muscle mass

(particularly in the right places) and even dead weight helps too.

Obviously lifting and eating have their place.

> > Weight training isn't about skill and technique (except for a

> > competitive lifter, of course); it's about building strength.

>

> Isn't strength specific, see above question.

No, absolutely not. In an eight-week study, sure, you're only going

to see the quick neuromuscular adaptations, and those are fairly

specific, but it's obvious that a veteran bodybuilder is stronger

after years of training, even in movements he hasn't specifically

trained.

If you need to be as strong as possible for your mass, you may need

to be very specific in your training -- Olympic weightlifters

definitely must -- but many athletes don't.

Matt Madsen