RE: Box Squats (HIP FLEXORS?)

[Guest guest]

Dave Tate

Elite Fitness Systems

1695 Itawamba Trail

London, Ohio 43140

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Box Squats replay

<<<<And how can you keep a static

contraction if you are breaking the eccentric/concentric chain?>>>>

Dave Tate of Elite FTS wrote:

****As it stated in the article you only relax the hip flexors. All the

other muscles in the body remain static.

Casler of BIO-FORCE writes:

Hi Dave,

I was browsing through your posted reply and came across this statement. It

didn't seem to make sense to me that you would be " relaxing the hip

flexors " . Might you mean " hip extensors " ? Even though the Rectus femorus,

psoas and illiacus are probably activated as " antagonist stabilizers " , I

would think that the hams and glutes are the muscles you are " targeting " for

relaxation.

You try to relax the Hip Flexors. The muscles of the glutes and hamstrings

have to remain tight and as you sit back on the box. If you were to relax

these muscles you would begin to round over. Now, don't get me wrong here

either. There is no way you will be able to totally relax the hip flexors,

it is the verbal cue we use to keep the lifter tight on the box. We you

squat the way we advise by push your knees out with a wide stance and the

toes straight ahead. As you sit back you will begin to feel a tremendous

stretch in the hamstrings and glutes. I think in this position it would

almost be impossible to relax those muscles. We also check to make sure we

do not see the quads flex first as the lifter comes off the box. This is

totally wrong.

[Guest guest]

RE: Box Squats (HIP FLEXORS?)

Dave Tate of Elite FTS wrote:

****As it stated in the article you only relax the hip flexors. All the

other muscles in the body remain static.

Casler of BIO-FORCE writes:

Hi Dave,

I was browsing through your posted reply and came across this statement. It

didn't seem to make sense to me that you would be " relaxing the hip

flexors " . Might you mean " hip extensors " ? Even though the Rectus femorus,

psoas and illiacus are probably activated as " antagonist stabilizers " , I

would think that the hams and glutes are the muscles you are " targeting " for

relaxation.

Dave Tate of Elite Fitness Systems wrote:

You try to relax the Hip Flexors. The muscles of the glutes and hamstrings

have to remain tight and as you sit back on the box. If you were to relax

these muscles you would begin to round over. Now, don't get me wrong here

either. There is no way you will be able to totally relax the hip flexors,

it is the verbal cue we use to keep the lifter tight on the box. We you

squat the way we advise by push your knees out with a wide stance and the

toes straight ahead. As you sit back you will begin to feel a tremendous

stretch in the hamstrings and glutes. I think in this position it would

almost be impossible to relax those muscles. We also check to make sure we

do not see the quads flex first as the lifter comes off the box. This is

totally wrong.

Casler of BIO-FORCE writes:

Now I am curious. I visited Louis' article and found the following:

Louie article states:

http://deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/louie/ls9.htm

" Every muscle is kept tight while on the box with the exception of the hip

flexors. By releasing and then contracting the hip flexors and arching the

upper back, you will jump off the box, building tremendous starting

strength. "

Casler of BIO-FORCE continues:

I visited your site: http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/ and read your

article (great stuff by the way) and found this:

" When you reach the box you want to sit down and relax the hips flexors

while keeping every muscle other muscle tight. "

I guess my questions are:

What specific hip flexors are you relaxing? or " trying to relax " ?

How do you selectively relax them whilst keeping everything else " tight " ?

What biomechanical mechanism are you trying to utilize here and how do you

feel it works?

I know you state that you are interested in breaking the " eccentric to

concentric chain " but what does " trying to relax the hip flexors " have to do

with this?

Could it be that the " static " (keeping tight) pause at that depth and for

that length of time manifests a " focused " hypermotor impulse for a greater

duration and multiple sets (I am under the impression you do 2 rep sets for

12 sets) cause it to " imprint " more strongly?

It seems that in a standard stretch/shortening cycle you have an

instantaneous hypermotor excitation at the eccentric/static/concentric

juncture. By using a box to psychologically reduce the fear of sitting in

that position 'with no support' you promote a greater stimulus to the

nervous system.

I find the systems very interesting and I had no idea that they originally

came from " Peanuts " and the boys. When I first came to California,

(strangely enough from Ohio) I used to train with Peanuts West, Steve

Marjanian, Chuck Ahrens, " Bugsy " Seigel and some of the guys. And now I do

remember them doing squats off of boxes. So this stuff really did come from

the " West " side. In fact it seems to me they started a " Westside gym " out

here at some point. I usually ran into them at the " weight pit " in Venice.

Regards,

A. Casler

BIO-FORCE, Inc.

Los Angeles, CA

[Guest guest]

I guess my questions are:

*What specific hip flexors are you relaxing? or " trying to relax " ?

The Rectus femoris, tensor fasciae lantae or in other words what most people

refer to as their hip flexor.

How do you selectively relax them whilst keeping everything else " tight " ?

***Good question. You sit nack on the box while keeping an arch in your

lower back (this keep the back tight), you push out on your belt with the

abdominals (this keep the abs tight), you pull your should blades together

(this keeps the upper back tight) you pull your elbows forward (this keep

the back tight), you force your knees out while sitting down (this keep the

glutes tight), you sit as far back as possible (this keeps the hamstrings

tight)so by process of elimination there is only a few muscles that can

relax slightly while on the box. If you did not relax the hip flexors then

you would never release.

I know you state that you are interested in breaking the " eccentric to

concentric chain " but what does " trying to relax the hip flexors " have to do

with this?

*When ever you stop a movement you break the eccentric concentric chain. The

hip flexors are just part of the process. Try to break the eccentric

concentric chain without the box or releasing your hip flexors. The movement

is being broken by the box, the hip flexors are the only way you can get the

proper release without loosing form.

Could it be that the " static " (keeping tight) pause at that depth and for

that length of time manifests a " focused " hypermotor impulse for a greater

duration and multiple sets (I am under the impression you do 2 rep sets for

12 sets) cause it to " imprint " more strongly?

possibility

It seems that in a standard stretch/shortening cycle you have an

instantaneous hypermotor excitation at the eccentric/static/concentric

juncture. By using a box to psychologically reduce the fear of sitting in

that position 'with no support' you promote a greater stimulus to the

nervous system.

*The box defiantly help to reduce the fear of sitting in the position but

for other reasons then you state. Another purpose of the box is to sit back

so your shins go past perpendicular to the floor. This places greater stress

on the glutes and hamstrings. If you tried to do this without the box you

would fall over backwards.

I find the systems very interesting and I had no idea that they originally

came from " Peanuts " and the boys.

*Louie has always stated this and credits them for taking his squat from 400

to 600 within the first year of box squatting.

When I first came to California,

(strangely enough from Ohio) I used to train with Peanuts West, Steve

Marjanian, Chuck Ahrens, " Bugsy " Seigel and some of the guys. And now I do

remember them doing squats off of boxes. So this stuff really did come from

the " West " side. In fact it seems to me they started a " Westside gym " out

here at some point. I usually ran into them at the " weight pit " in Venice.

*I believe their old gym used to be called westside barbell club. This is

where Louie got the name from.

Dave Tate

[Guest guest]

As a former member of the athletically eclectic group that trained at Bill

West's (his acting name; given last name was Weiss) garage in Culver City in the

'60's and '70's, I can confirm both our name (Westside Barbell Club) and the

derivation of a number of the training approaches and techniques now in vogue

with contemporary Westsiders: for example, using pads on the chest while doing

bench presses, and high and low box squats and deadlifts. It was truly a

privilege for me to train for powerlifting among such a caliber of athletes,

particularly a track and field Olympian and world record holder, Frenn.

Jim Klostergaard