Re: nursing - school nurses

[Guest guest]

Dear Nicky, What makes you say that you do not "nurse"? Have a look at the definition of nursing on rcn.org.uk (from 16 Oct).

June

-----Original Message-----From: Nicjaybj@... [mailto:Nicjaybj@...]Sent: 14 October 2002 18:27 Subject: nursing - school nursesI always read with interest the debates that go on about the health visiting title and how it fits into 'nursing'. It must not be forgotten that there are school NURSES out there. I for one am absolutely desperate for a change in title because it currently does not reflect the work we do. However, whenever I have brought up the issue in various venues there is often a desire to retain 'nurse'. I do not 'nurse' I see myself much more as a 'health visitor' for school age children and young people. But I am not allowed to use that title! It is not necessary to hold a school nurse qualification to call oneself 'school nurse'. School nurses deal with child protection frequently. They can have 3 or 4000 children on their caseloads, 20 could be on the register with several times that number as cause for concern. They are dealing with children with a variety of problems, not always parents. How do school nurses cope? How do they endeavour to maintain good practice? And, oh an immunisation campaign arrives - school nurses drop everything to ensure a high uptake.Nicky

[Guest guest]

Hi Nicky

It is good to see someone after my own heart - I have been calling school nurses health visitors for school aged children since the early 1990s. also in the work I have done more recently around school nursing i have always suggested a change in title. You need the same competencies as HV and the same training and education just directed at school age children and young people.

Lets push forward together and show them that it is about the work we do not the title.

Keep up the campaigning

Margaret

nursing - school nurses

I always read with interest the debates that go on about the health visiting title and how it fits into 'nursing'. It must not be forgotten that there are school NURSES out there. I for one am absolutely desperate for a change in title because it currently does not reflect the work we do. However, whenever I have brought up the issue in various venues there is often a desire to retain 'nurse'. I do not 'nurse' I see myself much more as a 'health visitor' for school age children and young people. But I am not allowed to use that title! It is not necessary to hold a school nurse qualification to call oneself 'school nurse'. School nurses deal with child protection frequently. They can have 3 or 4000 children on their caseloads, 20 could be on the register with several times that number as cause for concern. They are dealing with children with a variety of problems, not always parents. How do school nurses cope? How do they endeavour to maintain good practice? And, oh an immunisation campaign arrives - school nurses drop everything to ensure a high uptake.Nicky

[Guest guest]

Nicky, I hope that one of the good things that may come out of tthe NMC

is the possibility of school nurses who have completed the specialist

practitioner programmes (and I would also be pushing for their

predecessors, if they took one-year programmes) to be on the same

register as health visitors.

I would be interested in your views, though, about one thing. It seems

to me that the new helath visiting competencies cover all age groups,

and I cannot see any sense in saying that health visitors should be

trained for all age groups EXCEPT school age. Likewise, those who

specialise in the health of school age children need the same skills as

health visitors, but it would make no sense for them learn all of that,

then to be allowed to apply their knowledge ONLY to school aged

population. I don't know the answer to this conundrum, except that it

seems to me that we are talking about the same profession, applied to

different age groups. I have heard the views of several health

visitors, who generally think it would be preferable to have one

qualification and register, but still to differentiate in the jobs: so

specialisation occurs after qualification as in most other professions.

I have not heard any school nurses' views, though, and would like to.

What do you think? best wishes

Nicjaybj@... wrote:

> I always read with interest the debates that go on about the health

> visiting title and how it fits into 'nursing'. It must not be

> forgotten that there are school NURSES out there. I for one am

> absolutely desperate for a change in title because it currently does

> not reflect the work we do. However, whenever I have brought up the

> issue in various venues there is often a desire to retain 'nurse'. I

> do not 'nurse' I see myself much more as a 'health visitor' for

> school age children and young people. But I am not allowed to use

> that title! It is not necessary to hold a school nurse qualification

> to call oneself 'school nurse'.

> School nurses deal with child protection frequently. They can have 3

> or 4000 children on their caseloads, 20 could be on the register with

> several times that number as cause for concern. They are dealing with

> children with a variety of problems, not always parents. How do school

> nurses cope? How do they endeavour to maintain good practice? And, oh

> an immunisation campaign arrives - school nurses drop everything to

> ensure a high uptake.

> Nicky

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Nicky

A few days ago I attended a one day conference in Hampshire arranged by Dr Harker Director of Public Health for Hampshire PCT and Director of "Healthworks" the Health Promotion agency for a large part of Wessex.

The conference was about community development approaches to health promotion and public participation in health and social care and was entitled :

Public Health Promotion - current initiatives.

During the day Dr Harker commented that as a Public Health Consultant he is keen to see a name change for his work which he reckons is more to do with Health Promotion than anything else.

School nursing is about health promotion too to my mind.

Maybe a new name for all of us with an interest in groups as opposed to individuals might be :

Public Health Promotion Practitioners ?

Just a thought.

This certainly seems to be the approach that Dr Harker is going for.

Best wishes,

Malcolm

nursing - school nurses

I always read with interest the debates that go on about the health visiting title and how it fits into 'nursing'. It must not be forgotten that there are school NURSES out there. I for one am absolutely desperate for a change in title because it currently does not reflect the work we do. However, whenever I have brought up the issue in various venues there is often a desire to retain 'nurse'. I do not 'nurse' I see myself much more as a 'health visitor' for school age children and young people. But I am not allowed to use that title! It is not necessary to hold a school nurse qualification to call oneself 'school nurse'. School nurses deal with child protection frequently. They can have 3 or 4000 children on their caseloads, 20 could be on the register with several times that number as cause for concern. They are dealing with children with a variety of problems, not always parents. How do school nurses cope? How do they endeavour to maintain good practice? And, oh an immunisation campaign arrives - school nurses drop everything to ensure a high uptake.Nicky

[Guest guest]

I suppose (on reflection!) I can relate my current practice to previous nursing . I am suure I got my first school nurse job because I could demonstrate my transferability of skills ( I was previously in elderly care). However, in my opinion,the public perception of a nurse is one who works in hospital, A school nurse is someone who does first aid!. When title changes have been considered before then there is the 'keep nurse' faction and everybody else. I think I see myself as more of an health adviser than hands on and HVs do not have nursing in their title!

You do not find unqualified people calling themselves HV but you do get those calling themselves school nurse.

I guess I just want to ensure School nurses are given equal credit to HVs or else it may not survive. It worries me to see experienced sns going to do the HV course because they see that as the way forward but HVs are able to do school nursing without the course.

Sorry If I sound bitter but I find I move school nursing forward only to find the goal posts have moved or there is something standing in our way. Otherwise it can be the most rewarding job. I came into nursing nearly 20 years ago now because wanted to be a HV. I never did become one and do not want to as I feel working with school age children is an exciting role.

Best wishes

Nicky

[Guest guest]

Margaret

Thanks for that

Nicky

[Guest guest]

I agree that it would seem a way forward to have the same training and specialise afterwards. However, current sns must not be lost. there is a lot of expertise out there but unfortunately not often the grade to go with it. I think the danger would be that Trusts would just return to putting current Sns to be managed by HVs. The same skills , yes, but the role of the sn with children and adolescents, usually without parents, needs to be really valued. I also am concerned about those who did the course before it was a year long- some of these nurses are very experienced and have done some really innovative work.

You have given me food for thought.

Nicky

[Guest guest]

Please do not loose hope Nicky. I have been working with first line managers in a PCT today where tow of them are school nurses with a clinical school nurse caseload managing DN and Hv and doing well.

Margaret

Re: nursing - school nurses

I agree that it would seem a way forward to have the same training and specialise afterwards. However, current sns must not be lost. there is a lot of expertise out there but unfortunately not often the grade to go with it. I think the danger would be that Trusts would just return to putting current Sns to be managed by HVs. The same skills , yes, but the role of the sn with children and adolescents, usually without parents, needs to be really valued. I also am concerned about those who did the course before it was a year long- some of these nurses are very experienced and have done some really innovative work. You have given me food for thought.Nicky

[Guest guest]

Nicky

You seem to trigger things for me. I am sure we need to reflect more on the word NURSE and what it does to people.

From 1972 to 1996 - I worked in a variety of places using my nursing and HV qualification but without NURSE in my title, It never bothered me.

In 1996 I want to be a regional NURSE and suddenly I was put in my place. I was the nurse and people had expectations about what that meant, what I did, what Icould contribute and so on. A number of people felt I should have nothing to say as I was a nurse and when I did try to contribute put me down and said it was not acceptable to have a voice. HV training in the early 1970s taught me I had a voice and I resented it.

I feel this is an important issue not just for me but for nursing, health visiting, school nursing and so on....

What do others think?

Margaret

Re: nursing - school nurses

I suppose (on reflection!) I can relate my current practice to previous nursing . I am suure I got my first school nurse job because I could demonstrate my transferability of skills ( I was previously in elderly care). However, in my opinion,the public perception of a nurse is one who works in hospital, A school nurse is someone who does first aid!. When title changes have been considered before then there is the 'keep nurse' faction and everybody else. I think I see myself as more of an health adviser than hands on and HVs do not have nursing in their title! You do not find unqualified people calling themselves HV but you do get those calling themselves school nurse.I guess I just want to ensure School nurses are given equal credit to HVs or else it may not survive. It worries me to see experienced sns going to do the HV course because they see that as the way forward but HVs are able to do school nursing without the course.Sorry If I sound bitter but I find I move school nursing forward only to find the goal posts have moved or there is something standing in our way. Otherwise it can be the most rewarding job. I came into nursing nearly 20 years ago now because wanted to be a HV. I never did become one and do not want to as I feel working with school age children is an exciting role.Best wishesNicky

[Guest guest]

Isn't that what we need. I had been invited to join a delegation to Finland which would have involved me meeting nurses but unfortunately it has been delayed indefinitely. i shall have to encourage my contact to move ahead with it.

I have just heard of a school nurse resigning. She has had enough. It is very sad. She did the course a couple of years ago and was really dynamic. This just cannot go on.

BCGs were mentioned today at work. I just do not know how we would have coped if we had been doing them now or how we will cope when we do get the vaccine. There has been a total lack of communication from the DOH.

I have been emphasising the need for an immunisation team in our PCT. I am greeted with agreement but unfortunately no resources.

Nicky

[Guest guest]

Quite right. In Finland the relevant post reg training covers what we would call health visitors, school nurses, occupational health nurses, and they all use the title terveyudenhoitaija (I think that's how it's spelt) which means "health nurse" as distinct from sairaanhoitaija which means sick nurse. They may not decide which field they want to practise in until the end of the course, and they may change fields later on. They see it as doing the same thing but with different client groups, they are paid the same, and there are no "second class citizens".

June

-----Original Message-----From: Margaret Buttigieg [mailto:margaret@...]Sent: 14 October 2002 21:27 Subject: Re: nursing - school nurses

Hi Nicky

It is good to see someone after my own heart - I have been calling school nurses health visitors for school aged children since the early 1990s. also in the work I have done more recently around school nursing i have always suggested a change in title. You need the same competencies as HV and the same training and education just directed at school age children and young people.

Lets push forward together and show them that it is about the work we do not the title.

Keep up the campaigning

Margaret

nursing - school nurses

I always read with interest the debates that go on about the health visiting title and how it fits into 'nursing'. It must not be forgotten that there are school NURSES out there. I for one am absolutely desperate for a change in title because it currently does not reflect the work we do. However, whenever I have brought up the issue in various venues there is often a desire to retain 'nurse'. I do not 'nurse' I see myself much more as a 'health visitor' for school age children and young people. But I am not allowed to use that title! It is not necessary to hold a school nurse qualification to call oneself 'school nurse'. School nurses deal with child protection frequently. They can have 3 or 4000 children on their caseloads, 20 could be on the register with several times that number as cause for concern. They are dealing with children with a variety of problems, not always parents. How do school nurses cope? How do they endeavour to maintain good practice? And, oh an immunisation campaign arrives - school nurses drop everything to ensure a high uptake.Nicky

[Guest guest]

Have a look at Defining Nursing which is now out for consultation on www.rcn.org.uk

June

-----Original Message-----From: Margaret Buttigieg [mailto:margaret@...]Sent: 16 October 2002 20:28 Subject: Re: nursing - school nurses

Nicky

You seem to trigger things for me. I am sure we need to reflect more on the word NURSE and what it does to people.

From 1972 to 1996 - I worked in a variety of places using my nursing and HV qualification but without NURSE in my title, It never bothered me.

In 1996 I want to be a regional NURSE and suddenly I was put in my place. I was the nurse and people had expectations about what that meant, what I did, what Icould contribute and so on. A number of people felt I should have nothing to say as I was a nurse and when I did try to contribute put me down and said it was not acceptable to have a voice. HV training in the early 1970s taught me I had a voice and I resented it.

I feel this is an important issue not just for me but for nursing, health visiting, school nursing and so on....

What do others think?

Margaret

Re: nursing - school nurses

I suppose (on reflection!) I can relate my current practice to previous nursing . I am suure I got my first school nurse job because I could demonstrate my transferability of skills ( I was previously in elderly care). However, in my opinion,the public perception of a nurse is one who works in hospital, A school nurse is someone who does first aid!. When title changes have been considered before then there is the 'keep nurse' faction and everybody else. I think I see myself as more of an health adviser than hands on and HVs do not have nursing in their title! You do not find unqualified people calling themselves HV but you do get those calling themselves school nurse.I guess I just want to ensure School nurses are given equal credit to HVs or else it may not survive. It worries me to see experienced sns going to do the HV course because they see that as the way forward but HVs are able to do school nursing without the course.Sorry If I sound bitter but I find I move school nursing forward only to find the goal posts have moved or there is something standing in our way. Otherwise it can be the most rewarding job. I came into nursing nearly 20 years ago now because wanted to be a HV. I never did become one and do not want to as I feel working with school age children is an exciting role.Best wishesNicky

[Guest guest]

Great idea. Maybe we should adopt the titles in untranslated Finnish (but

without the 'aija' bit) to keep the debate focused on the issues rather than

names! That kind of unity is what I was promoting in the article about

health visiting, published in Community Practitioner I think it would be

fine if there was one separate register (not post-registration recording

on a nursing register) that regulates school health, occupational health

and health visiting as one, but it would be hard to identify different standards

from the ones already identified in the new health visiting competences.

Of course, the practice and jobs undertaken by practitioners would need

to focus on the specific areas. However, as long as there is a health visiting

register I do not oppose the establishment of any others; if other groups

want to look for new, different competences, that is fine.

, June wrote:

Quite right. In Finland the relevant post reg

training covers what we would call health visitors, school nurses, occupational

health nurses, and they all use the title terveyudenhoitaija (I think that's

how it's spelt) which means "health nurse" as distinct from sairaanhoitaija

which means sick nurse. They may not decide which field they want to practise

in until the end of the course, and they may change fields later on. They

see it as doing the same thing but with different client groups, they are

paid the same, and there are no "second class citizens".

June

[Guest guest]

Great idea. Maybe we should adopt the titles in untranslated Finnish (but

without the 'aija' bit) to keep the debate focused on the issues rather than

names! That kind of unity is what I was promoting in the article about

health visiting, published in Community Practitioner I think it would be

fine if there was one separate register (not post-registration recording

on a nursing register) that regulates school health, occupational health

and health visiting as one, but it would be hard to identify different standards

from the ones already identified in the new health visiting competences.

Of course, the practice and jobs undertaken by practitioners would need

to focus on the specific areas. However, as long as there is a health visiting

register I do not oppose the establishment of any others; if other groups

want to look for new, different competences, that is fine.

, June wrote:

Quite right. In Finland the relevant post reg

training covers what we would call health visitors, school nurses, occupational

health nurses, and they all use the title terveyudenhoitaija (I think that's

how it's spelt) which means "health nurse" as distinct from sairaanhoitaija

which means sick nurse. They may not decide which field they want to practise

in until the end of the course, and they may change fields later on. They

see it as doing the same thing but with different client groups, they are

paid the same, and there are no "second class citizens".

June

[Guest guest]

In the Nightingale Museum I came across the following

Ridgley, Seymour and Lucy 1954 Selected Writings of Florence Nightingale chap 8 `Sick Nursing and Health Nursing'. Perhaps worth re-visiting?

best wishes

Marjorie

Re: nursing - school nurses

Great idea. Maybe we should adopt the titles in untranslated Finnish (but without the 'aija' bit) to keep the debate focused on the issues rather than names! That kind of unity is what I was promoting in the article about health visiting, published in Community Practitioner I think it would be fine if there was one separate register (not post-registration recording on a nursing register) that regulates school health, occupational health and health visiting as one, but it would be hard to identify different standards from the ones already identified in the new health visiting competences. Of course, the practice and jobs undertaken by practitioners would need to focus on the specific areas. However, as long as there is a health visiting register I do not oppose the establishment of any others; if other groups want to look for new, different competences, that is fine. , June wrote:

Quite right. In Finland the relevant post reg training covers what we would call health visitors, school nurses, occupational health nurses, and they all use the title terveyudenhoitaija (I think that's how it's spelt) which means "health nurse" as distinct from sairaanhoitaija which means sick nurse. They may not decide which field they want to practise in until the end of the course, and they may change fields later on. They see it as doing the same thing but with different client groups, they are paid the same, and there are no "second class citizens".

June