Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 , as of right now the BrainQuiry unit is the BE compatible unit that can do SCP work. Their unit uses the active electrodes and a reference that reads eye movement. I know they have developed a design (actually had someone do it for them) but I think they only distribute it with their SCP capable unit. On Jan 4, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Dr. wrote: > Pete, > > Do you have a BioExplorer design for training slow cortical potentials? > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Dear Interested to see Brainquiry has produced a model that reads eye movement. Do you know if they have or will produce one that reads eye meovemnt for EEG training.Although I would presume the software used would need to compute this feature in some way. Mark Re: SCP Design? , as of right now the BrainQuiry unit is the BE compatible unit that can do SCP work. Their unit uses the active electrodes and a reference that reads eye movement. I know they have developed a design (actually had someone do it for them) but I think they only distribute it with their SCP capable unit.On Jan 4, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Dr. wrote:> Pete,>> Do you have a BioExplorer design for training slow cortical potentials?>> Thanks,> >>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Mark, I'm really not sure, the eye movement reference is essential for SCP recording so that is why it is in there. I have heard some anecdotal reports of people cobbling together extra references for eye movement but I've not seen it or heard any details. On Jan 4, 2006, at 7:51 PM, Mark Baddeley wrote: > Dear > Interested to see Brainquiry has produced a model that reads eye > movement. Do you know if they have or will produce one that reads eye > meovemnt for EEG training.Although I would presume the software used > would need to compute this feature in some way. > Mark >> Re: SCP Design? >> >> , as of right now the BrainQuiry unit is the BE compatible >> unit >> that can do SCP work. Their unit uses the active electrodes and a >> reference that reads eye movement.  I know they have developed a >> design (actually had someone do it for them) but I think they only >> distribute it with their SCP capable unit. >> >> >> On Jan 4, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Dr. wrote: >> >> > Pete, >> > >> > Do you have a BioExplorer design for training slow cortical >> potentials? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 , Not yet. There are a couple being tested, and I'll certainly let folks know as soon as they are working and available. Both are coming directly from hardware manufacturers, so there will probably be some additional fee for them. Pete > > From: " Dr. " <menlha@...> > Date: 2006/01/04 Wed PM 07:35:21 EST > > Subject: SCP Design? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Could someone explain the basics of SCP ? > > > Pete, > > > > Do you have a BioExplorer design for training slow cortical potentials? > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Niels Birbaumer and others have used slow cortical potentials to communicate with "locked in" ALS patients. The SCP is looking at a much slower range of frequencies than we typically look at in neurofeedback. Below is one of the references for that sort of work. Kaiser et al, 2001 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=11222979 & dopt=Citation Best, Sheila Re: SCP Design? Could someone explain the basics of SCP ? > > > Pete,> >> > Do you have a BioExplorer design for training slow cortical potentials?> >> > Thanks,> > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I believe there have been a couple detailed posts on this topic in the past year on the list, if you want to search back through the old messages. I believe Cornelia Dollfus posted some good information, among others. There may be more there than I can cover here. SCP refers to Slow Cortical Potentials. The brain produces both AC signals (the kind we usually train using neurofeedback), which oscillate between positive and negative numerous times per minute. When you train a signal at 14 Hz, for example, it has 14 positive and 14 negative pulses each second, which we see on the screen as peaks and valleys above and below the baseline on the raw waveform. However, the brain also produces DC signals, which you might see when someone rolls their eyes with electrodes near the front of the head: the whole baseline of the raw waveform, including the up-and-down oscillations, rises up above the baseline and then drops back down below it for periods covering a number of peaks and valleys. EEG pulses are produced in various parts of the brain, even though we measure them in the cortex. For example, much of the 6-8 Hz theta activity we see is actually produced in the hippocampus, and when neurons on the surface are performing memory tasks, they " tune in " to that station and pulse to its rhythm. The source of most of the very slowest pulses in the brain, including DC or SCP signals, is the brain-stem. The brainstem is the oldest and one of the most basic and critical areas of the brain. It includes, among other things, the reticular formation, which mediates arousal throughout the whole brain. It has been described as the " on/off switch for consciousness " . We haven't been able to train SCP with readily available software and hardware until very recently, because the signals are generally slower than 1 Hz (one pulse per second), and we can't filter those signals. Same as we couldn't, for many years, train signals above 35 Hz, because hardware didn't pick up signals that fast and software didn't have filters to pick them out. SCP training involves training either positive or negative potentials for different tasks. It has been researched in Europe (by Birbaumer and others) for a number of years, and the results appear to be very exciting. Main areas of training have been in the area of seizure disorders and in attention disorders. It is reported to be quite easy for clients to learn and rapidly effective. wrote about the need for a sensor for eyeblink, because obviously slow potentials will be very prone to artifact from eyerolls and blinks. The use of an additional sensor is one of the options for dealing with this--especially with amplifiers that are DC amplifiers (like the PET and some others mentioned by Cornelia in her post). However, SCP training can also be done with AC amplifiers (just like the PET can do AC training), and the solutions to the technical problems are different. As I mentioned previously, I'm aware of the PET, which can do SCP training. As mentioned, there is a specific head that plugs onto the unit (with the extra electrode). It will work with any PET, so those of you who already have the PET don't have to buy a new one--just a new electrode set to plug onto the end of the amplifier. However, as I mentioned previously, you also have to buy the protocol (for about $500, I believe). There is at least one other provider of which I'm aware working on SCP and expecting to have an option available in the very near future, using a different solution to some of the problems entailed in doing this work. Hope this helps some. You should also be able to find links on the internet: try Birbaumer and SCP. Pete > > From: " gskohner1 " <gskohner@...> > Date: 2006/01/05 Thu PM 06:15:32 EST > > Subject: Re: SCP Design? > > Could someone explain the basics of SCP ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Pete, FYI Bruce McMillan is in the process of developing a pendant that will do SCP work, The units will begin testing as soon as Larry can get a driver set up. On Jan 6, 2006, at 4:42 AM, Van Deusen wrote: > I believe there have been a couple detailed posts on this topic in the > past year on the list, if you want to search back through the old > messages. I believe Cornelia Dollfus posted some good information, > among others. There may be more there than I can cover here. > > SCP refers to Slow Cortical Potentials. The brain produces both AC > signals (the kind we usually train using neurofeedback), which > oscillate between positive and negative numerous times per minute. > When you train a signal at 14 Hz, for example, it has 14 positive and > 14 negative pulses each second, which we see on the screen as peaks > and valleys above and below the baseline on the raw waveform. > However, the brain also produces DC signals, which you might see when > someone rolls their eyes with electrodes near the front of the head: > the whole baseline of the raw waveform, including the up-and-down > oscillations, rises up above the baseline and then drops back down > below it for periods covering a number of peaks and valleys. > > EEG pulses are produced in various parts of the brain, even though we > measure them in the cortex. For example, much of the 6-8 Hz theta > activity we see is actually produced in the hippocampus, and when > neurons on the surface are performing memory tasks, they " tune in " to > that station and pulse to its rhythm. The source of most of the very > slowest pulses in the brain, including DC or SCP signals, is the > brain-stem. The brainstem is the oldest and one of the most basic and > critical areas of the brain. It includes, among other things, the > reticular formation, which mediates arousal throughout the whole > brain. It has been described as the " on/off switch for > consciousness " . > > We haven't been able to train SCP with readily available software and > hardware until very recently, because the signals are generally slower > than 1 Hz (one pulse per second), and we can't filter those signals. > Same as we couldn't, for many years, train signals above 35 Hz, > because hardware didn't pick up signals that fast and software didn't > have filters to pick them out. > > SCP training involves training either positive or negative potentials > for different tasks. It has been researched in Europe (by Birbaumer > and others) for a number of years, and the results appear to be very > exciting. Main areas of training have been in the area of seizure > disorders and in attention disorders. It is reported to be quite easy > for clients to learn and rapidly effective. > > wrote about the need for a sensor for eyeblink, because > obviously slow potentials will be very prone to artifact from eyerolls > and blinks. The use of an additional sensor is one of the options for > dealing with this--especially with amplifiers that are DC amplifiers > (like the PET and some others mentioned by Cornelia in her post). > However, SCP training can also be done with AC amplifiers (just like > the PET can do AC training), and the solutions to the technical > problems are different. > > As I mentioned previously, I'm aware of the PET, which can do SCP > training. As mentioned, there is a specific head that plugs > onto the unit (with the extra electrode). It will work with any PET, > so those of you who already have the PET don't have to buy a new > one--just a new electrode set to plug onto the end of the amplifier. > However, as I mentioned previously, you also have to buy the protocol > (for about $500, I believe). There is at least one other provider of > which I'm aware working on SCP and expecting to have an option > available in the very near future, using a different solution to some > of the problems entailed in doing this work. > > Hope this helps some. You should also be able to find links on the > internet: try Birbaumer and SCP. > > Pete > >> >> From: " gskohner1 " <gskohner@...> >> Date: 2006/01/05 Thu PM 06:15:32 EST >> >> Subject: Re: SCP Design? >> >> Could someone explain the basics of SCP ? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 , Yeah, I was aware of that but wasn't sure how publicly he wanted it stated. He'll be using an AC amp to do DC, unlike PET's DC amp which does AC. Thanks, Pete > > From: <gmartin@...> > Date: 2006/01/06 Fri AM 08:09:42 EST > > Subject: Re: Re: SCP Design? > > Pete, FYI Bruce McMillan is in the process of developing a pendant that will do SCP work, The units will begin testing as soon as Larry can get a driver set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Bruce posted on the BE list asking for a few folks with some knowledge of SCP to test the unit so if has been publicly stated. On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:35 PM, Van Deusen wrote: > , > > Yeah, I was aware of that but wasn't sure how publicly he wanted it > stated. He'll be using an AC amp to do DC, unlike PET's DC amp which > does AC. > > Thanks, > > Pete > >> >> From: <gmartin@...> >> Date: 2006/01/06 Fri AM 08:09:42 EST >> >> Subject: Re: Re: SCP Design? >> >> Pete, > > FYI > > Bruce McMillan is in the process of developing a pendant that will do > SCP work, The units will begin testing as soon as Larry can get a > driver set up. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Pete, My review of the literature coming out of Tubingen University is that the majority of the work was done with AC amps. Where SCP is put into a 'training' context with a series of relative short, rapid fires challenges for the trainee to move the DC in a particular direction, there should be no disadvantage in using AC amps, and it's this particular application which would be least sensitive to DC shifting artefacts (eye & electrode effects) making it pretty robust for general use - although this is the hypothesis that is to be tested in the upcoming work. bruce. > He'll be using an AC amp to do DC, unlike PET's DC amp which does AC. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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