Guest guest Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 Jim: > As I understand it, in ancient China, doctors were given a maintenance > payment each month to keep a person well. If they got sick, they > stopped paying. This sounds like the perfect model to me. A perfect model? You're kidding, right? If you're not kidding then I'll happily act as your Ancient Chinese Doctor! Let me know if you want the address to which to send checks until you get sick. -gts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 Not so ancient The village doctor was supposed to keep you well. If he failed then no payment. Ours,on the other hand, get paid if you are sick. Something about motivation I suppose. Kirk Gordon Swobe <gts_2000@...> wrote: Jim: > As I understand it, in ancient China, doctors were given a maintenance > payment each month to keep a person well. If they got sick, they > stopped paying. This sounds like the perfect model to me. A perfect model? You're kidding, right? If you're not kidding then I'll happily act as your Ancient Chinese Doctor! Let me know if you want the address to which to send checks until you get sick. -gts ------------------------------------ Note: This forum is for discussion of health related subjects but under no circumstances should any information published here be considered a substitute for personal medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Well let's take a look at how it might work hypothetically: I am an Ancient Chinese Doctor for a village of 1000 people. I charge villagers $1 per day for those days on which they feel well, and nothing for those days on which they feel sick. On average about 10% of the people in my village feel sick at any given time. This means I earn an annual income equal to: ($1 * .9 * 1000 * 365 days) = $32,850.00 What must I do to earn this money? Answer: absolutely nothing. If the villagers demand that I actually do something for the money then I could simply stop by villagers' homes occasionally to offer them a drink of my magic health potion, which is secretly nothing more than colored water. The superstitious villagers will call me a genius, and thank for me for keeping them healthy 90% of the time. -gts > Jim: > > > As I understand it, in ancient China, doctors were > given a maintenance > > payment each month to keep a person well. If they got > sick, they > > stopped paying. This sounds like the perfect model to > me. > > A perfect model? You're kidding, right? > > If you're not kidding then I'll happily act as your > Ancient Chinese Doctor! > > Let me know if you want the address to which to send checks > until you get sick. > > -gts > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Note: This forum is for discussion of health related > subjects but under no circumstances should any information > published here be considered a substitute for personal > medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner > Groups Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Hi gts: Or you could charge them $32 k/ yr for using your colored water that do not work when they become sick. Either way, you screwed them. There will always be crooks in society. The difference between the two methods is attitude. Our medical profession and pharmaceudical industry should be directed toward wellness and not repair. This is not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? Jim Gordon Swobe wrote: > Well let's take a look at how it might work hypothetically: > > I am an Ancient Chinese Doctor for a village of 1000 people. I charge > villagers $1 per day for those days on which they feel well, and > nothing for those days on which they feel sick. On average about 10% > of the people in my village feel sick at any given time. This means I > earn an annual income equal to: > > ($1 * .9 * 1000 * 365 days) = $32,850.00 > > What must I do to earn this money? Answer: absolutely nothing. > > If the villagers demand that I actually do something for the money > then I could simply stop by villagers' homes occasionally to offer > them a drink of my magic health potion, which is secretly nothing more > than colored water. The superstitious villagers will call me a genius, > and thank for me for keeping them healthy 90% of the time. > > -gts > > > > Jim: > > > > > As I understand it, in ancient China, doctors were > > given a maintenance > > > payment each month to keep a person well. If they got > > sick, they > > > stopped paying. This sounds like the perfect model to > > me. > > > > A perfect model? You're kidding, right? > > > > If you're not kidding then I'll happily act as your > > Ancient Chinese Doctor! > > > > Let me know if you want the address to which to send checks > > until you get sick. > > > > -gts > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Note: This forum is for discussion of health related > > subjects but under no circumstances should any information > > published here be considered a substitute for personal > > medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical industry > should be directed toward wellness and not repair. This is > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according to the Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. Interfering with the biology of an already healthy person might cause harm to that person, violating The Oath. This is why western doctors want to fix you when you're broken, and why they want to leave you alone when you're well. -gts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 So providing and encouraging nutrients that compromise your health does not violate the oath? That would be like saying that a mechanic who recommends brake fluid for engine crankcases is fine as long as he overhauls the engine when it throws a rod as a result. Your model is why we currently have health crises. We have doctors who have received one poor quality course in nutrition who recommend diets that keep people sick... including themselves. Then they administer or write prescriptions for drugs targeted to fix very narrowly focused problems with no understanding of or concern with the overall picture. I have to wonder, Gordon, why you post here. Are you an AMA or Pharmaceutical Industry spy? What am I missing? Gordon Swobe wrote: > > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical industry > > should be directed toward wellness and not repair. This is > > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? > > Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according to the > Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. Interfering with > the biology of an already healthy person might cause harm to that > person, violating The Oath. > > This is why western doctors want to fix you when you're broken, and > why they want to leave you alone when you're well. > > -gts > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 What you might be missing is the opportunity to drop this tangetal discussion which is not only off topic, but arguably pointless for most of us. Re: Ancient Chinese Doctors So providing and encouraging nutrients that compromise your health does not violate the oath? That would be like saying that a mechanic who recommends brake fluid for engine crankcases is fine as long as he overhauls the engine when it throws a rod as a result. Your model is why we currently have health crises. We have doctors who have received one poor quality course in nutrition who recommend diets that keep people sick... including themselves. Then they administer or write prescriptions for drugs targeted to fix very narrowly focused problems with no understanding of or concern with the overall picture. I have to wonder, Gordon, why you post here. Are you an AMA or Pharmaceutical Industry spy? What am I missing? Gordon Swobe wrote: > > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical industry > > should be directed toward wellness and not repair. This is > > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? > > Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according to the > Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. Interfering with > the biology of an already healthy person might cause harm to that > person, violating The Oath. > > This is why western doctors want to fix you when you're broken, and > why they want to leave you alone when you're well. > > -gts > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 > So providing and encouraging nutrients that compromise your > health does not violate the oath? Many MD's believe we receive all the nutrients we need from a standard government recommended diet. Some don't believe so, and so recommend supplements. Also I know some who specialize in anti-aging medicine. If you disagree with your doctor's philosophy, get a new doctor! > I have to wonder, Gordon, why you post here. I founded this discussion list, so you really ought to wonder why I don't post here more often. At the moment I'm posting here to dispel what I consider a false and unfair and uninformed characterization of modern medicine. I don't see anyone complaining about the discovery of penicillin. I don't see anyone complaining that nobody suffers from polio anymore. I don't see anyone complaining about the luxury and safety of giving birth in a hospital instead of at home. I don't see anyone complaining about all the many vaccines and treatments that modern medicine has provided. I don't see anyone complaining that, thanks to modern medicine and " Big Pharma " , the average lifespan of Americans is higher than ever in history, and rising every year. 200 years ago, Americans were lucky to live to age 40. Modern Americans can expect to live to about 80. Who do you thank for that? Ancient Chinese Doctors? -gts > > > > > Gordon Swobe wrote: > > > > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical > industry > > > should be directed toward wellness and not > repair. This is > > > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? > > > > Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according > to the > > Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. > Interfering with > > the biology of an already healthy person might cause > harm to that > > person, violating The Oath. > > > > This is why western doctors want to fix you when > you're broken, and > > why they want to leave you alone when you're well. > > > > -gts > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 But that is not what they do. Why the hypothetical? The barefoot doctors do an amazing job. We even sent a team to China, Nixon era I think, and a book, " The Barefoot doctor " was the result. Real pioneer types, these guys. My hat is off to them. They accomplish a lot with oh so very little. Kirk Gordon Swobe <gts_2000@...> wrote: Well let's take a look at how it might work hypothetically: I am an Ancient Chinese Doctor for a village of 1000 people. I charge villagers $1 per day for those days on which they feel well, and nothing for those days on which they feel sick. On average about 10% of the people in my village feel sick at any given time. This means I earn an annual income equal to: ($1 * .9 * 1000 * 365 days) = $32,850.00 What must I do to earn this money? Answer: absolutely nothing. If the villagers demand that I actually do something for the money then I could simply stop by villagers' homes occasionally to offer them a drink of my magic health potion, which is secretly nothing more than colored water. The superstitious villagers will call me a genius, and thank for me for keeping them healthy 90% of the time. -gts > Jim: > > > As I understand it, in ancient China, doctors were > given a maintenance > > payment each month to keep a person well. If they got > sick, they > > stopped paying. This sounds like the perfect model to > me. > > A perfect model? You're kidding, right? > > If you're not kidding then I'll happily act as your > Ancient Chinese Doctor! > > Let me know if you want the address to which to send checks > until you get sick. > > -gts > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Note: This forum is for discussion of health related > subjects but under no circumstances should any information > published here be considered a substitute for personal > medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner > Groups Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 They work according to the Harvard Data Base or their malpractice is null and void. So non harvard medicine goes begging. WHich is truly sad as harvard medicine is the number 1 killer in the US, and that is just reported statistics. How many are swept under the rug? Google iatrogenic. You never heard of well baby doctor visits? As for our vaccines curing polio I suggest you look at the infection rate for the 3 years prior to the introduction of the vaccine. The slope of the curve is unchanged. Polio was eradicated with sanitation -chlorination of public pools etc. The slope of the curve tells everything. Kirk Gordon Swobe <gts_2000@...> wrote: > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical industry > should be directed toward wellness and not repair. This is > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according to the Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. Interfering with the biology of an already healthy person might cause harm to that person, violating The Oath. This is why western doctors want to fix you when you're broken, and why they want to leave you alone when you're well. -gts ------------------------------------ Note: This forum is for discussion of health related subjects but under no circumstances should any information published here be considered a substitute for personal medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Gordon, I think you have too much faith in doctors. I can give a lot of personal experience about doctors NOT doing what they should and giving self-serving advice that makes them extra money, but the most telling information is that when doctors go on strike, death rates go down. There's a message there that's not positive. Doctor's are no more or less honest than the average person, but the customary and usually practices are designed to assembly line patents in and out as fast as possible without really dealing with patent in full, only in little disconnected parts. Only the well informed consumer (not patient) has a real chance of getting some small benefit on his medical expenses. Steve Gordon Swobe wrote: > > > > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical industry > > should be directed toward wellness and not repair. This is > > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? > > Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according to the > Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. Interfering with > the biology of an already healthy person might cause harm to that > person, violating The Oath. > > This is why western doctors want to fix you when you're broken, and why > they want to leave you alone when you're well. > > -gts -- Steve - dudescholar4@... Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 The issue concerns the question of why doctors and pharmaceutical companies focus more on treating the sick than on promoting " wellness " among the non-sick. The wrong-headed, alarmist, conspiracy-theorist explanation is that the medical establishment is controlled by evil greedy people who at best have no interest in your health and who at worst secretly plot for you to become sick or die. The level-headed, rational, non-paranoid explanation is that the medical establishment is bound by the Hippocratic Oath. The Oath forbids physicians from tampering with the health of people who are not sick, because to do so is to risk causing harm for no reason. The Oath makes perfect sense. If you feel sick then you should call a physician. If you feel fine, but want advice on the optimum dose of some obscure herbal supplement, then you should call a nutritionist or an herbalist. (Better yet, take responsibility for your own wellness and educate yourself. That's why I created this discussion list.) -gts > > > > > > > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical > industry > > > should be directed toward wellness and not > repair. This is > > > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? > > > > Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according > to the > > Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. > Interfering with > > the biology of an already healthy person might cause > harm to that > > person, violating The Oath. > > > > This is why western doctors want to fix you when > you're broken, and why > > they want to leave you alone when you're well. > > > > -gts > > -- > > Steve - dudescholar4@... > > Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at > http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html > > " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march > to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford > > ------------------------------------ > > Note: This forum is for discussion of health related > subjects but under no circumstances should any information > published here be considered a substitute for personal > medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner > Groups Links > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/09/23/history-proves-man\ y-doctors-recommendations-are-disasters.aspx Gordon Swobe <gts_2000@...> wrote: The issue concerns the question of why doctors and pharmaceutical companies focus more on treating the sick than on promoting " wellness " among the non-sick. The wrong-headed, alarmist, conspiracy-theorist explanation is that the medical establishment is controlled by evil greedy people who at best have no interest in your health and who at worst secretly plot for you to become sick or die. The level-headed, rational, non-paranoid explanation is that the medical establishment is bound by the Hippocratic Oath. The Oath forbids physicians from tampering with the health of people who are not sick, because to do so is to risk causing harm for no reason. The Oath makes perfect sense. If you feel sick then you should call a physician. If you feel fine, but want advice on the optimum dose of some obscure herbal supplement, then you should call a nutritionist or an herbalist. (Better yet, take responsibility for your own wellness and educate yourself. That's why I created this discussion list.) -gts > > > > > > > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical > industry > > > should be directed toward wellness and not > repair. This is > > > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? > > > > Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according > to the > > Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. > Interfering with > > the biology of an already healthy person might cause > harm to that > > person, violating The Oath. > > > > This is why western doctors want to fix you when > you're broken, and why > > they want to leave you alone when you're well. > > > > -gts > > -- > > Steve - dudescholar4@... > > Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at > http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html > > " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march > to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford > > ------------------------------------ > > Note: This forum is for discussion of health related > subjects but under no circumstances should any information > published here be considered a substitute for personal > medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner > Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ Note: This forum is for discussion of health related subjects but under no circumstances should any information published here be considered a substitute for personal medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Gordon, Let me give you one of many examples. In my late 20s I was tired all the time. I once asked a doctor to tests testosterone and it was very low normal, something I would insist the doctor do something about today. My complaint was that I was tired all the time. His response was to get more rest. If the answer was so easy, I would have figured that one myself. The problem and solution was not trivial and the doctor didn't want to work. Fast forward 10 years. I asked another doctor to test testosterone again. He reluctantly agreed, it was way below normal, and I ended up on testosterone replacement. There were many options but he selected the most difficult one to use, the scrotal patch involving regular shaving. Later I learned that other patches were available and insisted on them. When my estradiol went to the high end of normal, the urologist who was a reasonable doctor recommended I see an endo after I expressed my concern about the issue. She recommend two. Both endos I saw SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that transdermal testosterone supplementation has a high likelihood of raising estradiol. Neither knew that and I didn't run into it for several years. The first endo gave me the following as his primary option, have your breasts removed and then you don't have to worry about Gynecomastia and you can ignore the high estradiol level. I told him that wasn't an option and there was no medical reason to do that. I explained that there was a drug commonly used for this that prevented the conversion of testosterone to estradiol. He insisted that there was no such drug but after a long LOUD arguing match, agreed to give me 30 pills insisting that it would last me one month and then I had to see a cancer specialist to get more. He didn't choose to become informed and the prescription lasted me 30 months and worked well. Mean while, I switched to injections because medical insurance had ended and $100/year verses $4000/year seemed like a good idea. With the switch to injections, my estradiol problem would evaporate. The second endo thought weekly injections was terrible and produced highs that were to high and lows that were too low. Her solution to the estradiol problem was to switch back to patches or creams, a solution that I noted was too expensive. When I refused to switch, she said she would not prescribe injections and that I had to come into her office for injections every three weeks instead of the once a week I was doing. That seemed illogical and self serving to me. I fired her too. Since I could obtain the drug I was interested in (but not the T) from international pharmacies and order the lab work I needed myself, I went back to the uro that was originally prescribing my testosterone and told her very carefully that I saw two different endos and they agree that I should do nothing about the estradiol, that it wasn't a problem. I then managed the estradiol problem myself and got the uro to prescribe the Testosterone. Working my way through a dozen more endos paying several hundred dollars for each inital visit didn't seem rational and I have since found out that out of 2500 people with low testosterone on one email list I'm on, only one has had a positive experience and I even think the endo gave him poor advise. The hypothyorid people have little positive to report on endos and the low adrenal people have little positive to report on ends. What I learned, get yourself an D.O. doctor and educate him on your needs. It's the best way to get good treatment. This is not a game I should have to play. I have worse horror stories about a cardiologist who refused to order the VAP test, a test which would have diagnosed why I had had a heart attack at a young age, a treatment for which is very simple, Niacin (treats small particle LDL). There is a prescription (timed release) and a non-prescription (immediate release) and the immediate release Niacin is by far the most effective. I had to order the test myself, adjust the niacin dose, retest, until I got the lowest effective dose of 2.5 grams/day. I then started up with a new cardio. Statin drugs do not touch small particle LDL at all and is a waste of time and money. The first one, Lipitor, cause heart arrhythmias which the cardio refused to believe the drug was causing it. I stopped the drug. I'm not going to argue with some doctor that thinks the side effects from a drug he prescribed was something else and that I should keep taking the drug anyway. That's BS. If I complain of a problem my doctor should be willing to get to the bottom of it. Men who have lot testosterone who complain are often sent to get anti-depressants instead of getting real treatment. As to the pharma industry, they are driven by profits, not altruism, and marginal drugs have their statistics sliced and diced in a way that makes it look like a small absolute improvement (expressed as relative improvement) so it can get into the system. Plavix, advertised extensively on the TV, is almost no more effective than aspirin alone and a lot less effective than fish oil. Plavix is $100/month, aspirin is pennies a month, and fish oil is not that expensive. If you could only take one, only one, your doctor should advocate fish oil every time, but the drug reps don't " educate " doctors on fish oil. Plavix, with it's internal bleeding side effects is now one of the largest selling drugs. I don't believe in an international conspiracy, I just think the system has been built by those with a stake in the profits and that it should be torn down by deregulation. Gordon Swobe wrote: > > > The issue concerns the question of why doctors and pharmaceutical > companies focus more on treating the sick than on promoting " wellness " > among the non-sick. > > The wrong-headed, alarmist, conspiracy-theorist explanation is that the > medical establishment is controlled by evil greedy people who at best > have no interest in your health and who at worst secretly plot for you > to become sick or die. > > The level-headed, rational, non-paranoid explanation is that the medical > establishment is bound by the Hippocratic Oath. The Oath forbids > physicians from tampering with the health of people who are not sick, > because to do so is to risk causing harm for no reason. The Oath makes > perfect sense. I don't live in that fantasy land. My experiences is that a large group of doctors are biased, want to perform procedures that are unnecessary, and administer maintenance solutions that maximize income. THE AHA, AMA, ADA, ACA are all in place for the benefit of it's member doctors, not the patients, and advocate practices that maintain sickness. While I understand the drives, people need to think of doctors as used car salesmen, let the buyer beware, not buy the doctor's word lock, stock, and barrel. > If you feel sick then you should call a physician. If you feel fine, but > want advice on the optimum dose of some obscure herbal supplement, then > you should call a nutritionist or an herbalist. (Better yet, take > responsibility for your own wellness and educate yourself. That's why I > created this discussion list.) I'm tired all the time. I've complained about it for 25 years. So far no results. I take that back, I had one partial success. I had a heart attack without insurance and instead of a bypass because the cost was $250,000, I elected stents. Great decision. I would say that 1/2 of my tiredness went away after the arteries were opened. I had insurance all my life except for the few years before the heart attack, and no doctor was able to discover the blockages even thought I had frequently complained of chest pains, I just didn't rate the " high " enough. The cardio that paced the stents indicated that the blockages were so extensive that they had been building for well over 10 years. I pulled a full set of thyroid tests myself and while they looked normal, when I presented them to several thyroid lists (before talking to a doctor), it appears that I have a very poor ratio of reverse t3 to t3 and the solution that most have found effective is to supplement with t3. Endos most of the time won't do that. Now, why cannot I get a doctor to figure this out? I'm preparing myself for the medication and options I want before ever approaching a doctor. That's the only way to get the best results. Yet, this might not be why I'm tired and I'm getting adrenals tested too. Nevertheless, few doctors are going to work the problem to a solution. From reading the health forums in many areas, it is enlighteningly apparent that doctors can make a very good living being very poor at their jobs, something most people cannot do. The number of doctors is limited by limits set on degree granting institutions which is a pure issue of economics, there is a lot of demand for a limited supply, therefor the supply can be poor but all of it will be sold. A actually think there is a solution and that is to remove the ability of agencies of the US government to enforce their positions and allow them only to recommend positions. The FDA can become a certification agency and private businesses can enter the certification business. People can choose to take drugs certified by whom ever they want and over time the FDA should be cut from government funding and go private. Regulation of doctors should go the same way with private certification organizations certifying doctors. People can choose which certifications they think are useful and business would have to compete on the bases of quality certification. Educational outputs could not be limited. In other words, government enforced regulation has gotten us into this mess and keeps prices high and value low. Pure competition, real competition, needs to be allowed to flourish. Deregulation is the solution. > -gts > > > > > > > > > > > > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical > > industry > > > > should be directed toward wellness and not > > repair. This is > > > > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? > > > > > > Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according > > to the > > > Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. > > Interfering with > > > the biology of an already healthy person might cause > > harm to that > > > person, violating The Oath. > > > > > > This is why western doctors want to fix you when > > you're broken, and why > > > they want to leave you alone when you're well. > > > > > > -gts -- Steve - dudescholar4@... Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 http://primev.com/DHEA.htm I take 200mg a day. Saw no effect at 50mg. Makes a big difference in my energy levels. Women should not take large doses lest they suffer deepening of voice and facial hair. Couldnt afford testosterone. This precursor seems to do the job. Kirk Steve <dudescholar4@...> wrote: Gordon, Let me give you one of many examples. In my late 20s I was tired all the time. I once asked a doctor to tests testosterone and it was very low normal, something I would insist the doctor do something about today. My complaint was that I was tired all the time. His response was to get more rest. If the answer was so easy, I would have figured that one myself. The problem and solution was not trivial and the doctor didn't want to work. Fast forward 10 years. I asked another doctor to test testosterone again. He reluctantly agreed, it was way below normal, and I ended up on testosterone replacement. There were many options but he selected the most difficult one to use, the scrotal patch involving regular shaving. Later I learned that other patches were available and insisted on them. When my estradiol went to the high end of normal, the urologist who was a reasonable doctor recommended I see an endo after I expressed my concern about the issue. She recommend two. Both endos I saw SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that transdermal testosterone supplementation has a high likelihood of raising estradiol. Neither knew that and I didn't run into it for several years. The first endo gave me the following as his primary option, have your breasts removed and then you don't have to worry about Gynecomastia and you can ignore the high estradiol level. I told him that wasn't an option and there was no medical reason to do that. I explained that there was a drug commonly used for this that prevented the conversion of testosterone to estradiol. He insisted that there was no such drug but after a long LOUD arguing match, agreed to give me 30 pills insisting that it would last me one month and then I had to see a cancer specialist to get more. He didn't choose to become informed and the prescription lasted me 30 months and worked well. Mean while, I switched to injections because medical insurance had ended and $100/year verses $4000/year seemed like a good idea. With the switch to injections, my estradiol problem would evaporate. The second endo thought weekly injections was terrible and produced highs that were to high and lows that were too low. Her solution to the estradiol problem was to switch back to patches or creams, a solution that I noted was too expensive. When I refused to switch, she said she would not prescribe injections and that I had to come into her office for injections every three weeks instead of the once a week I was doing. That seemed illogical and self serving to me. I fired her too. Since I could obtain the drug I was interested in (but not the T) from international pharmacies and order the lab work I needed myself, I went back to the uro that was originally prescribing my testosterone and told her very carefully that I saw two different endos and they agree that I should do nothing about the estradiol, that it wasn't a problem. I then managed the estradiol problem myself and got the uro to prescribe the Testosterone. Working my way through a dozen more endos paying several hundred dollars for each inital visit didn't seem rational and I have since found out that out of 2500 people with low testosterone on one email list I'm on, only one has had a positive experience and I even think the endo gave him poor advise. The hypothyorid people have little positive to report on endos and the low adrenal people have little positive to report on ends. What I learned, get yourself an D.O. doctor and educate him on your needs. It's the best way to get good treatment. This is not a game I should have to play. I have worse horror stories about a cardiologist who refused to order the VAP test, a test which would have diagnosed why I had had a heart attack at a young age, a treatment for which is very simple, Niacin (treats small particle LDL). There is a prescription (timed release) and a non-prescription (immediate release) and the immediate release Niacin is by far the most effective. I had to order the test myself, adjust the niacin dose, retest, until I got the lowest effective dose of 2.5 grams/day. I then started up with a new cardio. Statin drugs do not touch small particle LDL at all and is a waste of time and money. The first one, Lipitor, cause heart arrhythmias which the cardio refused to believe the drug was causing it. I stopped the drug. I'm not going to argue with some doctor that thinks the side effects from a drug he prescribed was something else and that I should keep taking the drug anyway. That's BS. If I complain of a problem my doctor should be willing to get to the bottom of it. Men who have lot testosterone who complain are often sent to get anti-depressants instead of getting real treatment. As to the pharma industry, they are driven by profits, not altruism, and marginal drugs have their statistics sliced and diced in a way that makes it look like a small absolute improvement (expressed as relative improvement) so it can get into the system. Plavix, advertised extensively on the TV, is almost no more effective than aspirin alone and a lot less effective than fish oil. Plavix is $100/month, aspirin is pennies a month, and fish oil is not that expensive. If you could only take one, only one, your doctor should advocate fish oil every time, but the drug reps don't " educate " doctors on fish oil. Plavix, with it's internal bleeding side effects is now one of the largest selling drugs. I don't believe in an international conspiracy, I just think the system has been built by those with a stake in the profits and that it should be torn down by deregulation. Gordon Swobe wrote: > > > The issue concerns the question of why doctors and pharmaceutical > companies focus more on treating the sick than on promoting " wellness " > among the non-sick. > > The wrong-headed, alarmist, conspiracy-theorist explanation is that the > medical establishment is controlled by evil greedy people who at best > have no interest in your health and who at worst secretly plot for you > to become sick or die. > > The level-headed, rational, non-paranoid explanation is that the medical > establishment is bound by the Hippocratic Oath. The Oath forbids > physicians from tampering with the health of people who are not sick, > because to do so is to risk causing harm for no reason. The Oath makes > perfect sense. I don't live in that fantasy land. My experiences is that a large group of doctors are biased, want to perform procedures that are unnecessary, and administer maintenance solutions that maximize income. THE AHA, AMA, ADA, ACA are all in place for the benefit of it's member doctors, not the patients, and advocate practices that maintain sickness. While I understand the drives, people need to think of doctors as used car salesmen, let the buyer beware, not buy the doctor's word lock, stock, and barrel. > If you feel sick then you should call a physician. If you feel fine, but > want advice on the optimum dose of some obscure herbal supplement, then > you should call a nutritionist or an herbalist. (Better yet, take > responsibility for your own wellness and educate yourself. That's why I > created this discussion list.) I'm tired all the time. I've complained about it for 25 years. So far no results. I take that back, I had one partial success. I had a heart attack without insurance and instead of a bypass because the cost was $250,000, I elected stents. Great decision. I would say that 1/2 of my tiredness went away after the arteries were opened. I had insurance all my life except for the few years before the heart attack, and no doctor was able to discover the blockages even thought I had frequently complained of chest pains, I just didn't rate the " high " enough. The cardio that paced the stents indicated that the blockages were so extensive that they had been building for well over 10 years. I pulled a full set of thyroid tests myself and while they looked normal, when I presented them to several thyroid lists (before talking to a doctor), it appears that I have a very poor ratio of reverse t3 to t3 and the solution that most have found effective is to supplement with t3. Endos most of the time won't do that. Now, why cannot I get a doctor to figure this out? I'm preparing myself for the medication and options I want before ever approaching a doctor. That's the only way to get the best results. Yet, this might not be why I'm tired and I'm getting adrenals tested too. Nevertheless, few doctors are going to work the problem to a solution. From reading the health forums in many areas, it is enlighteningly apparent that doctors can make a very good living being very poor at their jobs, something most people cannot do. The number of doctors is limited by limits set on degree granting institutions which is a pure issue of economics, there is a lot of demand for a limited supply, therefor the supply can be poor but all of it will be sold. A actually think there is a solution and that is to remove the ability of agencies of the US government to enforce their positions and allow them only to recommend positions. The FDA can become a certification agency and private businesses can enter the certification business. People can choose to take drugs certified by whom ever they want and over time the FDA should be cut from government funding and go private. Regulation of doctors should go the same way with private certification organizations certifying doctors. People can choose which certifications they think are useful and business would have to compete on the bases of quality certification. Educational outputs could not be limited. In other words, government enforced regulation has gotten us into this mess and keeps prices high and value low. Pure competition, real competition, needs to be allowed to flourish. Deregulation is the solution. > -gts > > > > > > > > > > > > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical > > industry > > > > should be directed toward wellness and not > > repair. This is > > > > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? > > > > > > Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according > > to the > > > Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. > > Interfering with > > > the biology of an already healthy person might cause > > harm to that > > > person, violating The Oath. > > > > > > This is why western doctors want to fix you when > > you're broken, and why > > > they want to leave you alone when you're well. > > > > > > -gts -- Steve - dudescholar4@... Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford ------------------------------------ Note: This forum is for discussion of health related subjects but under no circumstances should any information published here be considered a substitute for personal medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Men who have lot testosterone who complain are often sent to get anti-depressants instead of getting real treatment. IMHO anyone who complains of anything is more likely to get anti-depressants instead of getting real treatment. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Just glad that you don't, or I'd leave. I am not interested in uniformed allotropic garbage. I founded this discussion list, so you really ought to wonder why I don't post here more often. :)Gordon Swobe wrote: > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Hi Steve: You and those like you are why I have always enjoyed this group. Should we " conspire " to have its founder thrown out :0) Cheers, Jim Steve wrote: > Gordon, > > Let me give you one of many examples. In my late 20s I was tired all > the time. I once asked a doctor to tests testosterone and it was very > low normal, something I would insist the doctor do something about > today. My complaint was that I was tired all the time. His response > was to get more rest. If the answer was so easy, I would have figured > that one myself. The problem and solution was not trivial and the > doctor didn't want to work. Fast forward 10 years. I asked another > doctor to test testosterone again. He reluctantly agreed, it was way > below normal, and I ended up on testosterone replacement. There were > many options but he selected the most difficult one to use, the scrotal > patch involving regular shaving. Later I learned that other patches > were available and insisted on them. When my estradiol went to the high > end of normal, the urologist who was a reasonable doctor recommended I > see an endo after I expressed my concern about the issue. She recommend > two. Both endos I saw SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that transdermal testosterone > supplementation has a high likelihood of raising estradiol. Neither > knew that and I didn't run into it for several years. The first endo > gave me the following as his primary option, have your breasts removed > and then you don't have to worry about Gynecomastia and you can ignore > the high estradiol level. I told him that wasn't an option and there > was no medical reason to do that. I explained that there was a drug > commonly used for this that prevented the conversion of testosterone to > estradiol. He insisted that there was no such drug but after a long > LOUD arguing match, agreed to give me 30 pills insisting that it would > last me one month and then I had to see a cancer specialist to get more. > He didn't choose to become informed and the prescription lasted me 30 > months and worked well. Mean while, I switched to injections because > medical insurance had ended and $100/year verses $4000/year seemed like > a good idea. With the switch to injections, my estradiol problem would > evaporate. The second endo thought weekly injections was terrible and > produced highs that were to high and lows that were too low. Her > solution to the estradiol problem was to switch back to patches or > creams, a solution that I noted was too expensive. When I refused to > switch, she said she would not prescribe injections and that I had to > come into her office for injections every three weeks instead of the > once a week I was doing. That seemed illogical and self serving to me. > I fired her too. Since I could obtain the drug I was interested in > (but not the T) from international pharmacies and order the lab work I > needed myself, I went back to the uro that was originally prescribing my > testosterone and told her very carefully that I saw two different endos > and they agree that I should do nothing about the estradiol, that it > wasn't a problem. I then managed the estradiol problem myself and got > the uro to prescribe the Testosterone. Working my way through a dozen > more endos paying several hundred dollars for each inital visit didn't > seem rational and I have since found out that out of 2500 people with > low testosterone on one email list I'm on, only one has had a positive > experience and I even think the endo gave him poor advise. The > hypothyorid people have little positive to report on endos and the low > adrenal people have little positive to report on ends. > > What I learned, get yourself an D.O. doctor and educate him on your > needs. It's the best way to get good treatment. > > This is not a game I should have to play. I have worse horror stories > about a cardiologist who refused to order the VAP test, a test which > would have diagnosed why I had had a heart attack at a young age, a > treatment for which is very simple, Niacin (treats small particle LDL). > There is a prescription (timed release) and a non-prescription > (immediate release) and the immediate release Niacin is by far the most > effective. I had to order the test myself, adjust the niacin dose, > retest, until I got the lowest effective dose of 2.5 grams/day. I then > started up with a new cardio. Statin drugs do not touch small particle > LDL at all and is a waste of time and money. The first one, Lipitor, > cause heart arrhythmias which the cardio refused to believe the drug was > causing it. I stopped the drug. I'm not going to argue with some > doctor that thinks the side effects from a drug he prescribed was > something else and that I should keep taking the drug anyway. That's BS. > > If I complain of a problem my doctor should be willing to get to the > bottom of it. Men who have lot testosterone who complain are often sent > to get anti-depressants instead of getting real treatment. > > As to the pharma industry, they are driven by profits, not altruism, and > marginal drugs have their statistics sliced and diced in a way that > makes it look like a small absolute improvement (expressed as relative > improvement) so it can get into the system. Plavix, advertised > extensively on the TV, is almost no more effective than aspirin alone > and a lot less effective than fish oil. Plavix is $100/month, aspirin > is pennies a month, and fish oil is not that expensive. If you could > only take one, only one, your doctor should advocate fish oil every > time, but the drug reps don't " educate " doctors on fish oil. Plavix, > with it's internal bleeding side effects is now one of the largest > selling drugs. > > I don't believe in an international conspiracy, I just think the system > has been built by those with a stake in the profits and that it should > be torn down by deregulation. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 > Should we " conspire " to have its founder thrown out :0) Sorry Jim, but I hold the keys. :-) Seriously, I welcome interesting and alternative ideas such as those you seem wont to defend, but as the owner of this list I feel also that I have a certain moral responsibility to refute truly dangerous ideas. Among those dangerous ideas is the one that people with serious illnesses should not seek help from qualified medical professionals. You may have noticed the disclaimer that appears automatically at the bottom of each message here. I wrote it. -gts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 What does allotropic have to do with anything? Do you mean to say allopathic? allotropic means: the existence of a substance and especially an element in two or more different forms (as of crystals) usually in the same phase Allopathic means: relating to or being a system of medicine that aims to combat disease by using remedies (as drugs or surgery) which produce effects that are different from or incompatible with those of the disease being treated On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 04:27:22 -1000, Jim <huuman60@...> wrote: > Just glad that you don't, or I'd leave. I am not interested in > uniformed allotropic garbage. > > I founded this discussion list, so you really ought to wonder why I > don't post here more often. :)Gordon Swobe wrote: > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Steve I agree with you. Thank you for sharing. We all have our war stories with doctors, that's why we self education as best we can. Jess Re: Ancient Chinese Doctors Hi Steve: You and those like you are why I have always enjoyed this group. Should we " conspire " to have its founder thrown out :0) Cheers, Jim Steve wrote: > Gordon, > > Let me give you one of many examples. In my late 20s I was tired all > the time. I once asked a doctor to tests testosterone and it was very > low normal, something I would insist the doctor do something about > today. My complaint was that I was tired all the time. His response > was to get more rest. If the answer was so easy, I would have figured > that one myself. The problem and solution was not trivial and the > doctor didn't want to work. Fast forward 10 years. I asked another > doctor to test testosterone again. He reluctantly agreed, it was way > below normal, and I ended up on testosterone replacement. There were > many options but he selected the most difficult one to use, the scrotal > patch involving regular shaving. Later I learned that other patches > were available and insisted on them. When my estradiol went to the high > end of normal, the urologist who was a reasonable doctor recommended I > see an endo after I expressed my concern about the issue. She recommend > two. Both endos I saw SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that transdermal testosterone > supplementation has a high likelihood of raising estradiol. Neither > knew that and I didn't run into it for several years. The first endo > gave me the following as his primary option, have your breasts removed > and then you don't have to worry about Gynecomastia and you can ignore > the high estradiol level. I told him that wasn't an option and there > was no medical reason to do that. I explained that there was a drug > commonly used for this that prevented the conversion of testosterone to > estradiol. He insisted that there was no such drug but after a long > LOUD arguing match, agreed to give me 30 pills insisting that it would > last me one month and then I had to see a cancer specialist to get more. > He didn't choose to become informed and the prescription lasted me 30 > months and worked well. Mean while, I switched to injections because > medical insurance had ended and $100/year verses $4000/year seemed like > a good idea. With the switch to injections, my estradiol problem would > evaporate. The second endo thought weekly injections was terrible and > produced highs that were to high and lows that were too low. Her > solution to the estradiol problem was to switch back to patches or > creams, a solution that I noted was too expensive. When I refused to > switch, she said she would not prescribe injections and that I had to > come into her office for injections every three weeks instead of the > once a week I was doing. That seemed illogical and self serving to me. > I fired her too. Since I could obtain the drug I was interested in > (but not the T) from international pharmacies and order the lab work I > needed myself, I went back to the uro that was originally prescribing my > testosterone and told her very carefully that I saw two different endos > and they agree that I should do nothing about the estradiol, that it > wasn't a problem. I then managed the estradiol problem myself and got > the uro to prescribe the Testosterone. Working my way through a dozen > more endos paying several hundred dollars for each inital visit didn't > seem rational and I have since found out that out of 2500 people with > low testosterone on one email list I'm on, only one has had a positive > experience and I even think the endo gave him poor advise. The > hypothyorid people have little positive to report on endos and the low > adrenal people have little positive to report on ends. > > What I learned, get yourself an D.O. doctor and educate him on your > needs. It's the best way to get good treatment. > > This is not a game I should have to play. I have worse horror stories > about a cardiologist who refused to order the VAP test, a test which > would have diagnosed why I had had a heart attack at a young age, a > treatment for which is very simple, Niacin (treats small particle LDL). > There is a prescription (timed release) and a non-prescription > (immediate release) and the immediate release Niacin is by far the most > effective. I had to order the test myself, adjust the niacin dose, > retest, until I got the lowest effective dose of 2.5 grams/day. I then > started up with a new cardio. Statin drugs do not touch small particle > LDL at all and is a waste of time and money. The first one, Lipitor, > cause heart arrhythmias which the cardio refused to believe the drug was > causing it. I stopped the drug. I'm not going to argue with some > doctor that thinks the side effects from a drug he prescribed was > something else and that I should keep taking the drug anyway. That's BS. > > If I complain of a problem my doctor should be willing to get to the > bottom of it. Men who have lot testosterone who complain are often sent > to get anti-depressants instead of getting real treatment. > > As to the pharma industry, they are driven by profits, not altruism, and > marginal drugs have their statistics sliced and diced in a way that > makes it look like a small absolute improvement (expressed as relative > improvement) so it can get into the system. Plavix, advertised > extensively on the TV, is almost no more effective than aspirin alone > and a lot less effective than fish oil. Plavix is $100/month, aspirin > is pennies a month, and fish oil is not that expensive. If you could > only take one, only one, your doctor should advocate fish oil every > time, but the drug reps don't " educate " doctors on fish oil. Plavix, > with it's internal bleeding side effects is now one of the largest > selling drugs. > > I don't believe in an international conspiracy, I just think the system > has been built by those with a stake in the profits and that it should > be torn down by deregulation. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Yes this is true. How many women have been prescribed antidepressants or valium for physical problems. Jess Re: Ancient Chinese Doctors Men who have lot testosterone who complain are often sent to get anti-depressants instead of getting real treatment. IMHO anyone who complains of anything is more likely to get anti-depressants instead of getting real treatment. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 I'll be more careful in my future posts. Sorry if I mislead you. Osborne wrote: >What does allotropic have to do with anything? > >Do you mean to say allopathic? > >allotropic means: the existence of a substance and especially an element >in two or more different forms (as of crystals) usually in the same phase > >Allopathic means: relating to or being a system of medicine that aims to >combat disease by using remedies (as drugs or surgery) which produce >effects that are different from or incompatible with those of the disease >being treated > > > > >On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 04:27:22 -1000, Jim <huuman60@...> wrote: > > > >>Just glad that you don't, or I'd leave. I am not interested in >>uniformed allotropic garbage. >> >>I founded this discussion list, so you really ought to wonder why I >>don't post here more often. :)Gordon Swobe wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> > >------------------------------------ > >Note: This forum is for discussion of health related subjects but under no circumstances should any information published here be considered a substitute for personal medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner Links > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Does anyone have any ideas on how to get prescription DHEA from Canada? According to what I can find, ALL the DHEA in the USA comes from the same source in China and is very impure. The only difference in the USA's DHEA is the price. Many years ago I had a good brand that was manufactured in England. It did everything it was supposed to do and had no side effects and it raise my DHEA blood levels up to normal. I felt great. Then the Government and Drug companies forced them to stop making DHEA. Since then DHEA in the USA has, for me, all the side effects and none of the benefits. It doesn't raise my blood level of DHEA. I saw an article in Mercola that the US FDA had approved prescription DHEA but that's evidently not true. At least I can find nothing about it. Ann > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical > > > industry > > > > > should be directed toward wellness and not > > > repair. This is > > > > > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? > > > > > > > > Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according > > > to the > > > > Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. > > > Interfering with > > > > the biology of an already healthy person might cause > > > harm to that > > > > person, violating The Oath. > > > > > > > > This is why western doctors want to fix you when > > > you're broken, and why > > > > they want to leave you alone when you're well. > > > > > > > > -gts > > -- > > Steve - dudescholar4@... > > Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at > http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html > > " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march > to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford > > ------------------------------------ > > Note: This forum is for discussion of health related subjects but under no circumstances should any information published here be considered a substitute for personal medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 I get mine online from Costco It definitely works and brand is Schiff 350 tablets 25 mg about $11 if I remember also has 1mg Resveratrol in each tablet 1-800-526-6251 for Schiff To the best of my knowledge DHEA is banned in Canada Kirk newann2006 <anbw@...> wrote: Does anyone have any ideas on how to get prescription DHEA from Canada? According to what I can find, ALL the DHEA in the USA comes from the same source in China and is very impure. The only difference in the USA's DHEA is the price. Many years ago I had a good brand that was manufactured in England. It did everything it was supposed to do and had no side effects and it raise my DHEA blood levels up to normal. I felt great. Then the Government and Drug companies forced them to stop making DHEA. Since then DHEA in the USA has, for me, all the side effects and none of the benefits. It doesn't raise my blood level of DHEA. I saw an article in Mercola that the US FDA had approved prescription DHEA but that's evidently not true. At least I can find nothing about it. Ann > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our medical profession and pharmaceudical > > > industry > > > > > should be directed toward wellness and not > > > repair. This is > > > > > not all that difficult to follow. Agreed? > > > > > > > > Since 400 BC, western physicians have worked according > > > to the > > > > Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them from doing harm. > > > Interfering with > > > > the biology of an already healthy person might cause > > > harm to that > > > > person, violating The Oath. > > > > > > > > This is why western doctors want to fix you when > > > you're broken, and why > > > > they want to leave you alone when you're well. > > > > > > > > -gts > > -- > > Steve - dudescholar4@... > > Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at > http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html > > " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march > to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford > > ------------------------------------ > > Note: This forum is for discussion of health related subjects but under no circumstances should any information published here be considered a substitute for personal medical advice from a qualified physician. -the owner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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