Re: Caring for Attic - JEFFREY MAY or other expert

[Guest guest]

" barb1283 " wrote:

> I have turtle vents now in attic. Is that likely to be enough, or

should I get a turbine?? Also, do people here think putting an

ultraviolet light in my attic would help clean it of any existing

mold? Mold plates done up there said much higher count than air in

area or rest of house. It's a very old house so perhaps wood has

darkened with age, but some wood I can see grain (wood is dark

naturally I believe), but other wood has charcoal like color so I

suspect that could be mold, at least mold at one time.

>

Dr D and I had an RV " go bad " on us.

Every time she entered the bathroom, she would have an instant

nosebleed and could only tolerate the room for a short time before she

would collapse. I literally ripped out all the walls until there was

nothing left but the ceiling and floor.

It made no difference.

The ceiling had wood which used to be light in color, and still was

elsewhere, - this was dark and discolored and had all the appearance

of water damage - without any leaks in the roof - purely from

condensation.

Both of us could feel " strong hits " when we put our faces close to

this area.

Lowering humidity or using fans or trying to control humidity just

doesn't work here.

The cold outside and the warmth inside creates a condensation

interface that means some moisture on the exterior wood panel is

absolutely inevitable.

I had to remove the roof and replace the plywood cap.

Nothing less had the slightest effect in diminishing our symptoms.

Sorry to propose such bad news, but based on your description, I

suspect this may be a similar scenario.

-

Not only is this area in a humid place,

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info. The house just may be hopeless for me since

I haven't been in good health. Noone else seems bothered here. The

air tests I had here were very good except for attic and porch but

even though I never go up into the attic or now not out on the porch,

I feel better when I am at work than when I am at home, so must be

bothering me.

> The ceiling had wood which used to be light in color, and still was

> elsewhere, - this was dark and discolored and had all the appearance

> of water damage - without any leaks in the roof - purely from

> condensation.

> > Lowering humidity or using fans or trying to control humidity

just

> doesn't work here.

I had to remove the roof and replace the plywood cap.

[Guest guest]

Barb,

Attic ventilation for moisture control is very over-rated. Many attics have

no conscious ventilation and have no mold or moisture problems. And I have

seen very well ventilated attics with serious mold and moisture problems.

Ventilation does NOT determine whether you have an attic mold problem;

moisture infiltration from the home does. If you have no infiltration of

humid house air (during cool nights)you have no mold problem, whether there

is ventilation or not.

So, have someone knowledgeable go into the attic and see if there are places

where house air can infiltrate. The most common locations are around the

attic hatch or pull-down and eaves access doors. Venting a bathroom exhaust

into an attic or even a soffit (rather than directly to the exterior) is a

sure way to cause a mold problem. Leaks from ducts can also force houwse

moisture into an attic, particularly if there is a furnace humidifier.

Sometimes there are chases for pipes or flues, or framing gaps that allow

house air into the attic. If there is fiberglass insulation where the air is

infiltrating into the attic, the insulation will be soiled with

characteristically grey house dust that has been filtered out of the air

flow.

Mold in attics is very common and I have investigated hundreds of cases. It

is very rare for significant quantities of attic spores to get into a home

since air generally flows from the habitable spaces into the attic (and not

vice versa, though an attic AC unit, whole house fan or frequent

disturbances of the mold or attic insulation, by people or rodents, can of

course affect this situation.)

In extreme cases, 's solution makes sense but I would take care of all

the more likely sources of exposure from the habitable areas of the home

(and the basement, since air from there flows upwards)first.

In any case, you must be very careful not allow anyone from the attic to

drag dust back into the habitable areas of the house. Remediation should

take place directly from the exterior whenever feasible (even if an opening

has to be cut into the siding, as this is usually easy to repair).

C. May, M.A., CIAQP

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

1522 Cambridge Street

Cambridge, MA 02139

617-354-1055

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

>From: " barb1283 " barb1283@...

>Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:09pm(PDT)

>Subject: Re: Caring for Attic - JEFFREY MAY or other expert

>Thanks for the info. The house just may be hopeless for me since

>I haven't been in good health. Noone else seems bothered here. The

>air tests I had here were very good except for attic and porch but

>even though I never go up into the attic or now not out on the porch,

>I feel better when I am at work than when I am at home, so must be

>bothering me.

>> The ceiling had wood which used to be light in color, and still was

>> elsewhere, - this was dark and discolored and had all the appearance

>> of water damage - without any leaks in the roof - purely from

>> condensation.

>> Lowering humidity or using fans or trying to control humidity just

>> doesn't work here. I had to remove the roof and replace the plywood cap.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Jeff.

That seems like very good advice.

I have been VERY concerned about my attic

for some time. The insulation (I thought)

was blown in cellulose. It looks grey and

lumpy, and just seems like it should be a

mold haven. When I have been in the attic,

it would be very hot and dusty with lumpy

piles of this grey insulation everywhere.

It was like a little vision of hell.

But, upon closer inspection !

The insulation was not cellulose afterall.

It is fiberglass, or rock wool, or something?

We aren't exactly sure what it is frankly,

but it wasn't cellulose. More importantly,

however, it was very dry and clean. When

inspected in the light of day, the top was

found to be dry and clean. And more importantly,

the insulation next to the dry wall, which is

our ceiling, was also quite dry and clean.

Even the dry wall was quite nice, white,

and clean. I could have eaten off it. Well,

maybe I wouldn't go that far.

The point is: I was worrying about my attic

and mold all this time thinking there was cellulose

up there, and moisture, and things were REALLY bad.

In actuallity, while things may not be ideal (!),

perhaps they are not so bad, either. You have to

dig around up there to be sure.

And as noted, the air generally is migrating

from the house to the attic anyway.

[We do not have active ventilation in our attic,

only a ridge vent, and two small turtle vents

for 1500 sq.ft..]

Thanks ,

Zippy

P.S. I just discovered I have one of your books

on hand ! I really need to READ more books, instead

of just buying them

------------------------------------------

>

> Barb,

>

> Attic ventilation for moisture control is very over-rated. Many

attics have

> no conscious ventilation and have no mold or moisture problems. And

I have

> seen very well ventilated attics with serious mold and moisture

problems.

>

> Ventilation does NOT determine whether you have an attic mold

problem;

> moisture infiltration from the home does. If you have no

infiltration of

> humid house air (during cool nights)you have no mold problem,

whether there

> is ventilation or not.

>

> So, have someone knowledgeable go into the attic and see if there

are places

> where house air can infiltrate. The most common locations are

around the

> attic hatch or pull-down and eaves access doors. Venting a bathroom

exhaust

> into an attic or even a soffit (rather than directly to the

exterior) is a

> sure way to cause a mold problem. Leaks from ducts can also force

houwse

> moisture into an attic, particularly if there is a furnace

humidifier.

>

> Sometimes there are chases for pipes or flues, or framing gaps that

allow

> house air into the attic. If there is fiberglass insulation where

the air is

> infiltrating into the attic, the insulation will be soiled with

> characteristically grey house dust that has been filtered out of

the air

> flow.

>

> Mold in attics is very common and I have investigated hundreds of

cases. It

> is very rare for significant quantities of attic spores to get into

a home

> since air generally flows from the habitable spaces into the attic

(and not

> vice versa, though an attic AC unit, whole house fan or frequent

> disturbances of the mold or attic insulation, by people or rodents,

can of

> course affect this situation.)

>

> In extreme cases, 's solution makes sense but I would take care

of all

> the more likely sources of exposure from the habitable areas of the

home

> (and the basement, since air from there flows upwards)first.

>

> In any case, you must be very careful not allow anyone from the

attic to

> drag dust back into the habitable areas of the house. Remediation

should

> take place directly from the exterior whenever feasible (even if an

opening

> has to be cut into the siding, as this is usually easy to repair).

>

> C. May, M.A., CIAQP

> May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

> 1522 Cambridge Street

> Cambridge, MA 02139

> 617-354-1055

> www.mayindoorair.com

> www.myhouseiskillingme.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

<zippy890@...> wrote:

> I have been VERY concerned about my attic

> for some time. The insulation (I thought)

> was blown in cellulose. It looks grey and

> lumpy, and just seems like it should be a

> mold haven. When I have been in the attic,

> it would be very hot and dusty with lumpy

> piles of this grey insulation everywhere.

> It was like a little vision of hell.

>

> But, upon closer inspection !

>

> The insulation was not cellulose afterall.

> It is fiberglass, or rock wool, or something?

> We aren't exactly sure what it is frankly,

> but it wasn't cellulose. More importantly,

> however, it was very dry and clean. > Zippy

Lost, buried in the old messages, is an article about " Blown in

insulation " that was provided free of charge to low-income housing.

A lot of people took advantage of this service.

It turned out that the materials, which included old newspapers that

they were shredding, were moldy prior to processing.

I got to see some of this stuff and it matches your description.

It didn't matter how good it looked, it was still bad.

Some of these places had to have the material sucked back out under

Hazmat protocols because it was making people ill.

Better get that insulation checked!

-

[Guest guest]

I really don't think my isulation is cellulose.

But it is flame resistant. I put it under a propane

torch, and it wouldn't flame.

Of course, this would be consistent with fiber glass.

I think wool is also flame resistant.

You have to have a doctor's prescription to get

an organic cotton mattress without flame retardants.

But you can get a wool mattress without a doctors

script. I was told this was because wool is naturally

flame resistant.

Best,

Zippy

========================

>

> ,

>

> I have looked at quite a few samples of blown cellulose insulation

from

> buildings and I even went to a factory that shreded the newspaper.

I have

> never seen a moldy sample of cellulose insulation.

>

> Most likely, the lack of mold is due to the high percentage of

borate and

> ammonium phosphate added (up to 30% I have heard). In addition to

being a

> fire retardant, the borate is great mildewcide and pesticide.

>

> In a few very rare instances, I have found an insulation called

Destex

> (possibly from the 60's) that was shredded cellulose without fire

retardant.

> (One of the houses had had a serious attic fire!).

>

> Anyone with older cellulose attic insulation can easily test for

the

> presence of fire retardant. Just take some of the insulation

outside (away

> from anything combustible), hold it with a tweezer and light it

with a

> match. If the insulation just smokes or ignites and then self

extinguishes

> when the match is removed, there is fire retardant.

>

> If it explodes into flames (literally!), it's Destex and I would

have it

> removed very carefully. If this cellulose gets wet, it can get

moldy, but

> the fire retarded material should not be a problem unless all the

retardant

> is washed out under a major, long-term roof leak.

>

> Of course, if you have lots of mold growing on the sheathing in an

attic,

> some of the spores can be in the insulation (especially if the roof

was

> replaced and the nails hammered) and the insulation should be

removed by a

> vacuum truck.

>

> C. May, M.A., CIAQP

> May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

> 1522 Cambridge Street

> Cambridge, MA 02139

> 617-354-1055

> www.mayindoorair.com

> www.myhouseiskillingme.com

>

>