RE: Re: PDCAAS and dual protein sources

[Guest guest]

I calculated the PDCAAS for 2 collagen/whey products. One has a PDCAAS of 42% and the other had a PDCAAS = 50%. Email me directly if you want to know the product names.Unless you calculate the PDCAAS, you can not determine the quality of a combination whey-collagen or casein-whey-collagen product.There are a couple of collagen based products that have a PDCAAS of 98-100%. In its natural state collagen is not a complete source of protein. Collagen must be highly

fortified to meet the minimum standards. The terms 'typical AA profile' are used on the product label to state that based on their QA analysis, the product typically has this distribution of IAA. If a competitor were to send some samples to an independent lab, the values are expected to be very close to the published data. If the numbers are dramatically different, the reason for the differences might include, 1. an issue with the sample sent, 2. the sample is old and the IAA have broken down, or 3. the manufacturer is misrepresenting the nutrient data.I know of no research data to support the implication by the manufacturer that 'modified amino acids' are of any nutritional value. The DAA

add nitrogen, but the concentration added is low. Since DAA are synthesized by the body these may not add too much nutritional value. There are two metabolic cycles involving nitrogen: nitrogen cycle and protein cycle. In

the protein cycle amino acids move into and out of protein through the

processes of protein synthesis, degradation, and protein turnover. The clinical implication is that the intake of

sufficient levels of these IAA is crucial for preventing negative nitrogen

balance and required for tissue accretion. In

the nitrogen cycle, urea-N moves into the bowel and is salvaged as

metabolically useful nitrogen. One adaptation to a

very low dietary protein intake is to salvage amino acids from urea through the metabolic activity

of the colonic microflora. The

rate of salvage is responsive to the dietary protein intake. As the protein

intake decreases, there is an increase in the proportion of urea-N produced

which is salvaged. The converse is that, as the intake falls, the proportion of

urea production which is excreted falls. The practical application is that through

this process, IAA may be salvaged to meet protein requirements when dietary

protein intake is poor either in quality, quantity or both. The extent to which

external nitrogen balance is achieved through the internal salvaging of urea

nitrogen as an effective source of indispensable amino acids, remains to be determined.

Cordially, Litchford PhD, RD, LDNwww.casesoftware.commdlphd@...New Release...Nutrition Focused Physical Assessment: Making Clinical Connections. From: S. Berry <gberry@...> "' '" < > Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 12:19 PM Subject: Re: PDCAAS and dual protein sources

I have been wondering this same thing! The company rep said that the PDCAAS score is 100 because they add back the individual amino acids the collagen was

lacking (which sounds plausible, but I’m not convinced). My hospital has switched to a liquid protein now as well which is concerning to me. Another question is how much complete protein would someone get from a combo product – for example ProSource made

by Medtrician says you get 15g/oz, but it is a collagen/whey combo. Here is what the label says:

Ingredients: Protein (from hydrolyzed collagen, l-leucine, l-tryptophan, whey isolate, l-histidine, l-isoleucine, l-threonine, and –methionine), purified

water, sucrose, sodium acid sulfate, phosphoric acid, natural flavors, tartaric acid, potassium sorbate, and sodium benzoate.

Typical Amino Acid profile per gram of protein: Indispensible Amino Acids Histidine – 14mg Isoleucine – 17mg Leucine – 40mg Lysine – 34mg Methionine + Cysteine – 13mg Phenylalanine + Tyrosine – 24mg Threonine – 24mg Tryptophan – 6mg Valine – 23mg Modified Amino Acids Hydroxylysine – 15mg Hydroxyproline – 122mg Dispensable Amino Acids Alanine – 86mg Arginine – 79mg Aspartate – 47mg Glutamate – 104mg Glycine – 239mg Proline – 141mg Serine – 35mg What seems odd to me is they state “typical AA profile†– does that mean the product varies or are they just saying that if you random sample test 1 g of

the product it might not look exactly the same as the next? We also have Pro-Stat available:

AMINO

ACID COMPOSITION ESSENTIAL MG/G

AMINO ACIDS PROTEIN PATTERN Histidine 18

Isoleucine 25

Leucine 55

Lysine 51

Methionine & Cysteine 25

Phenylalanine & Tyrosine 47

Threonine 27

Tryptophan 7

Valine 32

NON-ESSENTIAL AMINO ACIDS Alanine 93

Aspartic Acid 66

Serine 32

CONDITIONALLY- ESSENTIAL AMINO ACIDS Arginine 86

Glutamic Acid 111

Glycine 269

Proline 148

MODIFIED AMINO ACIDS Hydroxylysine 9

Hydroxyproline 140

Prostat is a hydrolyzed collagen with other AA added.

What are your thoughts on these products and the theory of adding the AA collagen is missing? Thank You, Berry, MS, RD Healdsburg

District Hospital Clinical Dietitian (707)431-6426

[Guest guest]

Since we are on the topic of PDCAAS, has anyone ever calculated the PDCAA score of " Body Fortress " brand " Super Advanced Whey Protein "  (they sell a whey protein concentrate and whey protein isolate)?

  This is one of the most economical protein powders out there that I've seen and is sold at Walmart for $14.95 per 2 lb canister which equals 24, (1 scoop) servings at 25 grams protein and 160 calories.  I have a lot of low income pts who seem to really like it and i want to make sure it's close to a 100 % score.  If anyone knows of other protein powders that are OTC, low priced and have a good PDCAA score, I'm interested in hearing about them!

many thanks,On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Litchford <mdlphd@...> wrote:

 

I calculated the PDCAAS for 2 collagen/whey products. One has a PDCAAS of 42% and the other had a PDCAAS = 50%. Email me directly if you want to know the product names.

Unless you calculate the PDCAAS, you can not determine the quality of a combination whey-collagen or casein-whey-collagen product.

There are a couple of collagen based products that have a PDCAAS of 98-100%. In its natural state collagen is not a complete source of protein. Collagen must be highly

fortified to meet the minimum standards. The terms 'typical AA profile' are used on the product label to state that based on their QA analysis, the product typically has this distribution of IAA. If a competitor were to send some samples to an independent lab, the values are expected to be very close to the published data. If the numbers are dramatically different, the reason for the differences might include, 1. an issue with the sample sent, 2. the sample is old and the IAA have broken down, or 3. the manufacturer is misrepresenting the nutrient data.

I know of no research data to support the implication by the manufacturer that 'modified amino acids' are of any nutritional value. The DAA

add nitrogen, but the concentration added is low. Since DAA are synthesized by the body these may not add too much nutritional value.  There are two metabolic cycles involving nitrogen: nitrogen cycle and protein cycle. In

the protein cycle amino acids move into and out of protein through the

processes of protein synthesis, degradation, and protein turnover. The clinical implication is that the intake of

sufficient levels of these IAA is crucial for preventing negative nitrogen

balance and required for tissue accretion. In

the nitrogen cycle, urea-N moves into the bowel and is salvaged as

metabolically useful nitrogen. One adaptation to a

very low dietary protein intake is to salvage amino acids from urea through the metabolic activity

of the colonic microflora. The

rate of salvage is responsive to the dietary protein intake. As the protein

intake decreases, there is an increase in the proportion of urea-N produced

which is salvaged. The converse is that, as the intake falls, the proportion of

urea production which is excreted falls. The practical application is that through

this process, IAA may be salvaged to meet protein requirements when dietary

protein intake is poor either in quality, quantity or both. The extent to which

external nitrogen balance is achieved through the internal salvaging of urea

nitrogen as an effective source of indispensable amino acids, remains to be determined.

Cordially, Litchford PhD, RD, LDNwww.casesoftware.com

mdlphd@...New Release...Nutrition Focused Physical Assessment: Making Clinical Connections.

From: S. Berry <gberry@...>

" ' ' " < >

Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 12:19 PM Subject: Re: PDCAAS and dual protein sources

 

I have been wondering this same thing!  The company rep said that the PDCAAS score is 100 because they add back the individual amino acids the collagen was

lacking (which sounds plausible, but I’m not convinced).   My hospital has switched to a liquid protein now as well which is concerning to me.   Another question is how much complete protein would someone get from a combo product – for example ProSource made

by Medtrician says you get 15g/oz, but it is a collagen/whey combo.  Here is what the label says: 

  Ingredients:  Protein (from hydrolyzed collagen, l-leucine, l-tryptophan, whey isolate, l-histidine, l-isoleucine, l-threonine, and –methionine), purified

water, sucrose, sodium acid sulfate, phosphoric acid, natural flavors, tartaric acid, potassium sorbate, and sodium benzoate. 

  Typical Amino Acid profile per gram of protein: Indispensible Amino Acids Histidine – 14mg Isoleucine – 17mg Leucine – 40mg Lysine – 34mg Methionine + Cysteine – 13mg Phenylalanine + Tyrosine – 24mg Threonine – 24mg Tryptophan – 6mg Valine – 23mg   Modified Amino Acids Hydroxylysine – 15mg Hydroxyproline – 122mg   Dispensable Amino Acids Alanine – 86mg Arginine – 79mg Aspartate – 47mg Glutamate – 104mg Glycine – 239mg Proline – 141mg Serine – 35mg   What seems odd to me is they state “typical AA profile” – does that mean the product varies or are they just saying that if you random sample test 1 g of

the product it might not look exactly the same as the next?     We also have Pro-Stat available: 

  AMINO

ACID COMPOSITION ESSENTIAL MG/G

AMINO ACIDS PROTEIN PATTERN Histidine 18

Isoleucine 25

Leucine 55

Lysine 51

Methionine & Cysteine 25

Phenylalanine & Tyrosine 47

Threonine 27

Tryptophan 7

Valine 32

NON-ESSENTIAL AMINO ACIDS Alanine 93

Aspartic Acid 66

Serine 32

CONDITIONALLY- ESSENTIAL AMINO ACIDS Arginine 86

Glutamic Acid 111

Glycine 269

Proline 148

MODIFIED AMINO ACIDS Hydroxylysine 9

Hydroxyproline 140

  Prostat is a hydrolyzed collagen with other AA added. 

  What are your thoughts on these products and the theory of adding the AA collagen is missing?

    Thank You,   Berry, MS, RD Healdsburg

District Hospital Clinical Dietitian (707)431-6426

 

-- LeBrun, MPH,RDSenior Nutritionist Washington Medical Faculty Associates2150 Pennsylvania Ave., NWSte 6-105Washington, DC 20037

202.741.2422clebrun@...

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your expertise and

knowledge. I would love to have the product names.

In Good Health,

Paine, RD, LD

Oconee Nutrition

Consultants

Weight Management

DPG Sponsor Relations Assistant Director

Office: 706-473-5801

Cell: 678-773-1853

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Litchford

Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012

2:57 PM

Subject: Re:

Re: PDCAAS and dual protein sources

I

calculated the PDCAAS for 2 collagen/whey products. One has a PDCAAS of 42% and

the other had a PDCAAS = 50%. Email me directly if you want to know the product

names.

Unless

you calculate the PDCAAS, you can not determine the quality of a combination

whey-collagen or casein-whey-collagen product.

There

are a couple of collagen based products that have a PDCAAS of 98-100%. In its

natural state collagen is not a complete source of protein. Collagen must be

highly fortified to meet the minimum standards.

The terms 'typical AA profile' are used on the product label to state that

based on their QA analysis, the product typically has this distribution of IAA.

If a competitor were to send some samples to an independent lab, the values are

expected to be very close to the published data. If the numbers are

dramatically different, the reason for the differences might include, 1. an

issue with the sample sent, 2. the sample is old and the IAA have broken down,

or 3. the manufacturer is misrepresenting the nutrient data.

I know of no research data to support the

implication by the manufacturer that 'modified amino acids' are of any

nutritional value. The DAA add nitrogen, but the concentration added is low.

Since DAA are synthesized by the body these may not add too much nutritional

value.

There are two metabolic cycles involving

nitrogen: nitrogen cycle and protein cycle. In the protein cycle amino acids move into and out of protein

through the processes of protein synthesis, degradation, and protein turnover.

The clinical implication is that the intake of sufficient levels of these IAA

is crucial for preventing negative nitrogen balance and required for tissue

accretion. In the

nitrogen cycle, urea-N moves into the bowel and is salvaged as metabolically

useful nitrogen. One adaptation to a very low dietary protein intake is to

salvage amino acids from urea through the metabolic activity of the colonic

microflora. The rate of salvage is responsive to the dietary protein intake. As

the protein intake decreases, there is an increase in the proportion of urea-N

produced which is salvaged. The converse is that, as the intake falls, the

proportion of urea production which is excreted falls. The practical

application is that through this process, IAA may be salvaged to meet protein

requirements when dietary protein intake is poor either in quality, quantity or

both. The extent to which external nitrogen balance is achieved through the internal

salvaging of urea nitrogen as an effective source of indispensable amino acids,

remains to be determined.

Cordially,

Litchford PhD, RD, LDN

www.casesoftware.com

mdlphd@...

New Release...Nutrition Focused Physical Assessment: Making Clinical

Connections.

From: S. Berry

<gberry@...>

" ' ' "

< >

Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 12:19

PM

Subject:

Re: PDCAAS and dual protein sources

I

have been wondering this same thing! The company rep said that the PDCAAS

score is 100 because they add back the individual amino acids the collagen was

lacking (which sounds plausible, but I’m not convinced). My

hospital has switched to a liquid protein now as well which is concerning to

me. Another question is how much complete protein would someone get

from a combo product – for example ProSource made by Medtrician says you get

15g/oz, but it is a collagen/whey combo. Here is what the label

says:

Ingredients:

Protein (from hydrolyzed collagen, l-leucine, l-tryptophan, whey isolate,

l-histidine, l-isoleucine, l-threonine, and –methionine), purified water,

sucrose, sodium acid sulfate, phosphoric acid, natural flavors, tartaric acid,

potassium sorbate, and sodium benzoate.

Typical

Amino Acid profile per gram of protein:

Indispensible

Amino Acids

Histidine

– 14mg

Isoleucine

– 17mg

Leucine

– 40mg

Lysine

– 34mg

Methionine

+ Cysteine – 13mg

Phenylalanine

+ Tyrosine – 24mg

Threonine

– 24mg

Tryptophan

– 6mg

Valine

– 23mg

Modified

Amino Acids

Hydroxylysine

– 15mg

Hydroxyproline

– 122mg

Dispensable

Amino Acids

Alanine

– 86mg

Arginine

– 79mg

Aspartate

– 47mg

Glutamate

– 104mg

Glycine

– 239mg

Proline

– 141mg

Serine

– 35mg

What

seems odd to me is they state “typical AA profile” – does that mean the product

varies or are they just saying that if you random sample test 1 g of the

product it might not look exactly the same as the next?

We

also have Pro-Stat available:

AMINO

ACID COMPOSITION

ESSENTIAL

MG/G

AMINO

ACIDS PROTEIN PATTERN

Histidine

18

Isoleucine

25

Leucine

55

Lysine

51

Methionine

& Cysteine 25

Phenylalanine

& Tyrosine 47

Threonine

27

Tryptophan

7

Valine

32

NON-ESSENTIAL

AMINO ACIDS

Alanine

93

Aspartic

Acid 66

Serine

32

CONDITIONALLY-

ESSENTIAL

AMINO

ACIDS

Arginine

86

Glutamic

Acid 111

Glycine

269

Proline

148

MODIFIED

AMINO ACIDS

Hydroxylysine

9

Hydroxyproline

140

Prostat

is a hydrolyzed collagen with other AA added.

What

are your thoughts on these products and the theory of adding the AA collagen is

missing?

Thank

You,

Berry, MS, RD

Healdsburg District Hospital

Clinical

Dietitian

(707)431-6426