Re: Insulin, was The Warrior Diet

[Guest guest]

Heidi, I was not able to find where this post came from or its

context, however my experience has been that protein only meals can

LOWER blood sugar and raise cortisol levels particularly in

hypoglycemics in that they have a tendancy towards low bs by

definition and insulin will be mildly stimulated to move the aminos

from the blood and also will take sugar from the blood

simultaneously and in turn dropping the bs further.

I think the important thing to remember in this is that these

mechanisms are oversimplified for teaching and reading purposes, you

can take two hg's and one will suffer with all protein and one

won't. I believe its a function of the source of the hg. Where in

the endocrine system is most disturbed, adrenal, thyroid, pituitary,

digestive status, etc... so ultimately it just isn't as predictable

as anyone would like.

Its not you, its the complexity of it all. ;-)

>

> >One problem that many people don't realise is that protein will

> >elevate your blood sugar also, just more slowly and over a longer

> >time period. There is no " spike " of blood sugar, but it goes up

and

> >stays up for hours. It is not true that only carbs affect blood

> >sugar and insulin. Especially in the absence of carbs, protein

is

> >converted into glucose by the body, because the brain needs

glucose

> >to work.

>

> Ok, now hold on a second ... I have great respect for insulin

meters

> but doesn't this counteract everything the Atkins folks (and

others)

> are saying? The whole point of the ketogenic diet is that protein

> never gets turned into glucose, so the body has to use ketones

> for the brain. (I'm not saying it isn't true, just that there is a

> major discrepency in data!).

>

> My understanding was that protein helps release glucose from

> storage, by promoting the release of hormones -- which has

> been my experience when I skip a meal, I get a " cortisol reaction "

> which causes the body to release glucose and my blood sugar

> goes ABOVE normal -- jumped from 95 to 125. (Interestingly,

> this doesn't seem to happen on the WD, or maybe the cortisol

> is released more slowly). Eating jerky seems to normalize

> my blood sugar, but this happens so fast I'm sure the jerky

> isn't being digested -- I'd guess that again, it is prompting

> glucose out of storage.

>

> Having insulin-dependent diabetes is a whole 'nother game!

> It's good you are taking care of yourself!

>

> -- Heidi

>

> >

[Guest guest]

>Heidi, I was not able to find where this post came from or its

>context, however my experience has been that protein only meals can

>LOWER blood sugar and raise cortisol levels particularly in

>hypoglycemics in that they have a tendancy towards low bs by

>definition and insulin will be mildly stimulated to move the aminos

>from the blood and also will take sugar from the blood

>simultaneously and in turn dropping the bs further.

Complexity of it all is right! This post was in response to one

by a diabetic who noticed that she needed more insulin when

she ate more protein, based on blood sugar readings.

Now, MY observation which I'm still trying to figure out, is:

1. When I take blood sugar readings and I'm feeling fine,

they are always 95. Before a meal, after a meal, doesn't matter.

2. When I skip a meal, I have " low blood sugar attacks " . Always

have, used to pass out. My Mom, a nurse, diagnosed insulin

shock. She gave me chicken soup, which snapped me right

out of them. Now that I have a blood sugar meter though, it

turns out that during these spells, my blood sugar is 125! So

whatever is going on, it isn't insulin shock.

Now I used to try to get rid of these spells by eating candy,

which never worked. Jerky works, chicken soup works. Those

are protein foods! I asked someone about that, who had read

that the symptoms most people assume are " low blood sugar "

are really high cortisol -- and the cortisol causes blood sugar

levels to rise, but there is too much cortisol (just like there

was probably too much insulin to start with) so you end

up feeling bad til the cortisol wears off.

I've also found that when I skip a meal, I can avoid all of this

by eating a little protein. Even though, in the case of jerky

anyway, it won't actually digest for some time.

So I conclude that protein causes some hormone to be produced

that does the correct thing with blood sugar/insulin/cortisol. Someone here

mentioned that it stimulate glucagon production?

>I think the important thing to remember in this is that these

>mechanisms are oversimplified for teaching and reading purposes, you

>can take two hg's and one will suffer with all protein and one

>won't. I believe its a function of the source of the hg. Where in

>the endocrine system is most disturbed, adrenal, thyroid, pituitary,

>digestive status, etc... so ultimately it just isn't as predictable

>as anyone would like.

I'd agree with that. What about protein in a diabetic though?

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

My father in law checks his blood sugar 3x per day because he's

diagnosed diabetic (type 2). Last time we visited he mentioned

after dinner -- which was just salad and meat for him -- his blood

sugar was abnormally high. He doesn't get how this can

happen when he eats only protein and fiber. The cortisol

connection makes sense here. My dh and I only got to FIL's town

around 6:30, the restaurant was crowded and by the time we

started eating it was after 8. He normally eats dinner at 5. He

gets very stressed when eating late because he perceives it is

harming him. Maybe that stress raised his cortisol which

caused glycogen to be released, raising blood sugar. (He did

have a snack at the normal time around 5 so he wasn't

'starving'.)

>

> Now I used to try to get rid of these spells by eating candy,

> which never worked. Jerky works, chicken soup works. Those

> are protein foods! I asked someone about that, who had read

> that the symptoms most people assume are " low blood sugar "

> are really high cortisol -- and the cortisol causes blood sugar

> levels to rise, but there is too much cortisol (just like there

> was probably too much insulin to start with) so you end

> up feeling bad til the cortisol wears off.

>

[Guest guest]

Heidi, what you describe below with the distress of bs at 125 being

relieved with protein exclusively is a behavior of protein many are

not familiar with. The actual lowering of bs and stimulation of

insulin. Obviously you have to be significantly imbalanced to go

here. But when you get there and you eat the jerky, soup, whatever

the high amino content is moved via insulin so as the aminos are

into the blood stream insulin levels rise and in turn cortisol

levels deminish, hence the improved state. This will not happen

with everyone but that is the most likely senario to explain your

experience and a common one at that. For those who the reverse is

true (meaning hypoglycemic the same protein meal will NOT provide

relief but in fact will make them kind of dizzy and mentally dull.

These are the folks who get off on a piece of candy or the like.

>

> >Heidi, I was not able to find where this post came from or its

> >context, however my experience has been that protein only meals

can

> >LOWER blood sugar and raise cortisol levels particularly in

> >hypoglycemics in that they have a tendancy towards low bs by

> >definition and insulin will be mildly stimulated to move the

aminos

> >from the blood and also will take sugar from the blood

> >simultaneously and in turn dropping the bs further.

>

> Complexity of it all is right! This post was in response to one

> by a diabetic who noticed that she needed more insulin when

> she ate more protein, based on blood sugar readings.

>

> Now, MY observation which I'm still trying to figure out, is:

>

> 1. When I take blood sugar readings and I'm feeling fine,

> they are always 95. Before a meal, after a meal, doesn't matter.

>

> 2. When I skip a meal, I have " low blood sugar attacks " . Always

> have, used to pass out. My Mom, a nurse, diagnosed insulin

> shock. She gave me chicken soup, which snapped me right

> out of them. Now that I have a blood sugar meter though, it

> turns out that during these spells, my blood sugar is 125! So

> whatever is going on, it isn't insulin shock.

>

> Now I used to try to get rid of these spells by eating candy,

> which never worked. Jerky works, chicken soup works. Those

> are protein foods! I asked someone about that, who had read

> that the symptoms most people assume are " low blood sugar "

> are really high cortisol -- and the cortisol causes blood sugar

> levels to rise, but there is too much cortisol (just like there

> was probably too much insulin to start with) so you end

> up feeling bad til the cortisol wears off.

>

> I've also found that when I skip a meal, I can avoid all of this

> by eating a little protein. Even though, in the case of jerky

> anyway, it won't actually digest for some time.

>

> So I conclude that protein causes some hormone to be produced

> that does the correct thing with blood sugar/insulin/cortisol.

Someone here

> mentioned that it stimulate glucagon production?

>

>

> >I think the important thing to remember in this is that these

> >mechanisms are oversimplified for teaching and reading purposes,

you

> >can take two hg's and one will suffer with all protein and one

> >won't. I believe its a function of the source of the hg. Where

in

> >the endocrine system is most disturbed, adrenal, thyroid,

pituitary,

> >digestive status, etc... so ultimately it just isn't as

predictable

> >as anyone would like.

>

> I'd agree with that. What about protein in a diabetic though?

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/21/03 1:14:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> OK -- so the Inuit eating fresh raw fish may or may not have been

> " ketogenic " ?

> Depending on how much fat they got? I would think that a population that

> regularly lived off meat would get pretty used to converting protein

> to glucose, so they would not *have* to live off ketones.

True but their diet was 75% fat.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/21/03 1:16:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Interestingly Ori mentions " high cortisol " as causing most of the distress

> during fasting when you start out the WD -- the book still hasn't arrived

> so I don't have the details

In the interview he said the body " adjusts to cortisol. " I wonder if he

meant the body gets used to such high amounts of cortisol or if he meant the

body

adapts by secreting less cortisol as it gets a handle on stabilizing blood

sugar. I *hope* he meant the latter.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

No, past a certain point, gluconeogenesis will occur with protein. That's

one reason a high-protein diet isn't such a great idea. (And it's one

reason Atkins has people getting more than 50% of their calories from fat.)

>but doesn't this counteract everything the Atkins folks (and others)

>are saying? The whole point of the ketogenic diet is that protein

>never gets turned into glucose, so the body has to use ketones

>for the brain.

-

[Guest guest]

Okay, the diabetic jumps back in...

I believe Mike is absolutely correct in that we get a simplified

boiled-down explanation of these digestive processes for teaching

purposes. The amount of information a newly diagnosed diabetic has

to learn is overwhelming to most. Not everyone is as addicted to

research as I am!

I have only had one diabetes educator tell me that I needed extra

insulin to digest extra protein. Normally I eat about 4 ounces of

protein in a meal, and don't take extra insulin for it. But if I eat

6 to 8 ounces, I am supposed to take as much insulin as I would for

an extra slice of bread or piece of fruit. This has proven to be

true for me, and has helped me control my bg's. It might not

metabolically be because of turning meat into sugar, but apparently

the effect, hormonal or whatever, is the same. But the blood sugar

doesn't spike, it goes up slowly and stays up, not necessarily at a

terribly high level, but moderately high.

Here's an example: I usually wake up with a 90-115 blood sugar. If

I ate some Krispy Kremes and didn't match it with the right amount or

timing of injected insulin, my bg can go up into the 300's. I

can " chase " with more insulin, and that would bring the spike down in

a couple of hours or less. Obviously, I avoid this! Normally I would

eat a little protein, some fat, a little carb, take enough insulin

for the carb, and be back down in the 110 area in a couple of hours,

probably not going above 200 during those two hours (hopefully).

Since it's hard to exactly match insulin with carb (and weather, and

mood, and stress!), I check and if necessary, take more insulin to

get it where I want it.

But when I have been on Atkins, my blood sugars will slowly climb

over a week or so to a steady level of 125, then 135, then 145, then

hover around the 150's or higher all day long. Long term, that's not

good.

However, after reading this group, it seems to me that the problem is

probably trying to eat too much lean protein and not enough fat. I

might try again with emphasis on good fats. Sometimes eating a lot

of fat makes insulin resistance worse, however. (I have insulin

resistance also, being middle aged and having gained that middle-aged

spread!) However, I have not noticed this effect as much with the

good natural fats. It is very complicated, and takes a lot of

experimenting to find how certain foods affect me. Someone once said

controlling diabetes is like living your regular life plus playing

chess the whole time as well! But it keeps my brain active!

Ann

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> Heidi-

>

> No, past a certain point, gluconeogenesis will occur with protein.

That's

> one reason a high-protein diet isn't such a great idea. (And it's

one

> reason Atkins has people getting more than 50% of their calories

from fat.)

>

> >but doesn't this counteract everything the Atkins folks (and

others)

> >are saying? The whole point of the ketogenic diet is that protein

> >never gets turned into glucose, so the body has to use ketones

> >for the brain.

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

>Heidi-

>

>No, past a certain point, gluconeogenesis will occur with protein. That's

>one reason a high-protein diet isn't such a great idea. (And it's one

>reason Atkins has people getting more than 50% of their calories from fat.)

:

OK -- so the Inuit eating fresh raw fish may or may not have been " ketogenic " ?

Depending on how much fat they got? I would think that a population that

regularly lived off meat would get pretty used to converting protein

to glucose, so they would not *have* to live off ketones.

(For those who are curious and ignorant, like me, here is a good link:)

http://www.degussa-health-nutrition.com/degussa/html/e/health/eng/kh/c5.htm

Glucose is the most important fuel for the brain and red blood cells and is

normally obtained from the diet. When fasting, however, the body’s glucose needs

must be met by gluconeogenesis, the biosynthesis of glucose from

non-carbohydrate precursors. Gluconeogenesis occurs in the liver and, to a

smaller extent, in the kidneys.

The non-carbohydrate precursors that can be converted to glucose include the

glycolysis products lactate and pyruvate, the intermediates of the citric acid

cycle, and the carbon skeletons of all amino acids except for leucine and

lysine. All non-carbohydrate precursors must be converted to oxaloacetate, the

starting material for gluconeogenesis. Fatty acids cannot serve as glucose

precursors in humans and animals: fatty acid breakdown leads to acetyl-CoA and

there is no pathway in humans and animals for the conversion of acetyl-CoA to

oxaloacetate.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>Heidi, what you describe below with the distress of bs at 125 being

>relieved with protein exclusively is a behavior of protein many are

>not familiar with. The actual lowering of bs and stimulation of

>insulin. Obviously you have to be significantly imbalanced to go

>here. But when you get there and you eat the jerky, soup, whatever

>the high amino content is moved via insulin so as the aminos are

>into the blood stream insulin levels rise and in turn cortisol

>levels deminish, hence the improved state. This will not happen

>with everyone but that is the most likely senario to explain your

>experience and a common one at that. For those who the reverse is

>true (meaning hypoglycemic the same protein meal will NOT provide

>relief but in fact will make them kind of dizzy and mentally dull.

>These are the folks who get off on a piece of candy or the like.

Ha. Very interesting. Thanks. I learn so much here ... it almost sounds like

there are two types of " hypoglycemia " reactions.

Interestingly Ori mentions " high cortisol " as causing most of the distress

during fasting when you start out the WD -- the book still hasn't arrived

so I don't have the details.

I did not know aminos are moved via insulin -- one mainly hears about

it for glucose. So a person with Type 1 diabetes would have to adjust

insulin for protein too?

My own body seems to be adjusting using the WD (which it never did

before on ANY diet) so perhaps it is learning to break down glycogen

or whatever at the proper rate withouth dumping huge amounts

of cortisol.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>However, after reading this group, it seems to me that the problem is

>probably trying to eat too much lean protein and not enough fat. I

>might try again with emphasis on good fats.

Ann:

You know, I realize this is all difficult for you personally, but I have to say

it is fascinating in terms of research! Mostly I just

theorize about insulin etc. but you actually have " hard data " ,

and I for one really appreciate you sharing.

I wonder what coconut oil would do? It is metabolized sort

of like a carb, but apparantly doesn't affect insulin/cortisol

and a person can eat large amounts of it without digestive

distress (even folks that don't digest fats well).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/21/03 3:28:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

annbekins@... writes:

> But I don't know if 1 tablespoon of coconut oil is enough to

> make a difference. I didn't know it was metabolized sort of like

> carbs -- how would that work? I figured it was just a fat.

Ann, it's not metabolized like a carb insofar as insulin is concerned. My

understanding is it gets (some of it anyway) broken down in the Krebs cycle to

produce ATP but never turns into glucose and so doesn't concern insulin. It's

really not like a carb at all except in the sense that it can ultimately

result in ATP, the energy source that glucose ultimately gets brokend down into.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/21/03 4:45:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

bberg@... writes:

> I'm always baffled as to why people continually refer to Atkins as a high-

> protein diet when it is clearly a high-fat diet. The only explanation I can

> come up with, other than willful ignorance, is that the low-fat mentality

> has been drilled so deeply into their minds that they simply cannot

> comprehend the idea that someone, a cardiologist no less, might actually

> recommend a high-fat diet. Curiously, the very same people sometimes refer

> to it as a " steak and eggs " diet, yet both of those foods derive a majority

> of their calories from fat.

and Christie,

I am also continually baffled at this, as I have not even *read* Atkins book,

but rather skimmed through the book for about 10 minutes while standing in

the bookstore, and the two things that stick out clearly in my mind are 1) Do

not think you can do the Atkins diet and eat 20g worth of carb-junk food, you

must eat vegetables, and 2)Do not think you can do the Atkins diet and eat a

low-fat diet, because a low-fat diet will result in your burning protein for

glucose, rather than fat for energy.

Moreover, the latter was in an FAQ section. So some brain-dead health

reporter who wanted to write a review of Atkins but didn't want to read the book

could have read the FAQ section as a form of " cliff notes " and should have come

away with the same clear impression that I did.

*sigh*

Chris

[Guest guest]

Theoretically at least in " some " folk, the lack of meals will

stabilize the insulin/cortisol rollercoaster from being so up and

down and also stimulate the liver to properly store AND UTILIZE

glycogen. This is theoretical however if our physiologic models are

correct, this in fact should happen.

DMM

> In a message dated 8/21/03 1:16:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> heidis@t... writes:

>

> > Interestingly Ori mentions " high cortisol " as causing most of

the distress

> > during fasting when you start out the WD -- the book still

hasn't arrived

> > so I don't have the details

>

> In the interview he said the body " adjusts to cortisol. " I wonder

if he

> meant the body gets used to such high amounts of cortisol or if he

meant the body

> adapts by secreting less cortisol as it gets a handle on

stabilizing blood

> sugar. I *hope* he meant the latter.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know what ORI meant but Mck Jefferies asserts the latter. In fact

he often (or at least he used to, he is about 95 years old if still alive)

gave patients 10 mg of non synthetic cortisol if they had normal levels or

cortisol but had low reserve.That was usually short term. He felt that it

gave the adrenals a " rest " and a chance to recover. He felt that

hypoglycemia was a symptom of low adrenal reserve. I guess normal output

of cortisol for an adult is 30 to 40 mg. He did not use the synthetic

varieties.

Irene

At 10:18 AM 8/21/03, you wrote:

>In a message dated 8/21/03 1:16:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

>heidis@... writes:

>

> > Interestingly Ori mentions " high cortisol " as causing most of the distress

> > during fasting when you start out the WD -- the book still hasn't arrived

> > so I don't have the details

>

>In the interview he said the body " adjusts to cortisol. " I wonder if he

>meant the body gets used to such high amounts of cortisol or if he meant

>the body

>adapts by secreting less cortisol as it gets a handle on stabilizing blood

>sugar. I *hope* he meant the latter.

>

>Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Ann:

>

> You know, I realize this is all difficult for you personally, but I

have to say

> it is fascinating in terms of research! Mostly I just

> theorize about insulin etc. but you actually have " hard data " ,

> and I for one really appreciate you sharing.

>

> I wonder what coconut oil would do? It is metabolized sort

> of like a carb, but apparantly doesn't affect insulin/cortisol

> and a person can eat large amounts of it without digestive

> distress (even folks that don't digest fats well).

>

> -- Heidi

Heidi,

You're so sweet! It's not difficult for me, I love to talk about

myself!

It is fascinating for research, and I don't mind talking about it. I

was first diagnosed as Type II because of late onset (I was 40), and

that was hard because I was on pills which didn't do the job (they

only work if you're still making insulin). When I finally was put on

insulin by a specialist, it got much easier, because I can be much

more flexible. And insulin actually works!

Well, maybe most folks don't get digestive distress from coconut oil,

but I do, also from fresh coconut and coconut milk. Seems odd as I

am part Hawaiian! I can eat a little if it's cooked. I cook hash

browns in 1 tablespoon coconut oil and 1 tablepoon butter, and that

is okay. I only take insulin for the potato, and it seems to work

out. But I don't know if 1 tablespoon of coconut oil is enough to

make a difference. I didn't know it was metabolized sort of like

carbs -- how would that work? I figured it was just a fat.

Ann

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:59:52 -0700

Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote:

> (For those who are curious and ignorant, like me, here is a good link:)

>

> http://www.degussa-health-nutrition.com/degussa/html/e/health/eng/kh/c5.htm

>

> Glucose is the most important fuel for the brain and red blood cells and is

normally obtained from the diet. >

>

You know I keep reading this, but I still remember the PPNF article where the

author said the exact opposite, both regarding the heart and the brain. Lets see

if I can dig it up.

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:18:16 EDT

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

> In the interview he said the body " adjusts to cortisol. " I wonder if he

> meant the body gets used to such high amounts of cortisol or if he meant the

body

> adapts by secreting less cortisol as it gets a handle on stabilizing blood

> sugar. I *hope* he meant the latter.

>

> Chris

>

The latter. He believes his diet allows one to manipulate hormones in

such a way that makes cortisol non-problematic.

[Guest guest]

>> Ok, now hold on a second ... I have great respect for insulin meters

but doesn't this counteract everything the Atkins folks (and others)

are saying? The whole point of the ketogenic diet is that protein

never gets turned into glucose, so the body has to use ketones

for the brain. (I'm not saying it isn't true, just that there is a

major discrepency in data!). <<

Actually, Atkins says in his book that protein *is* converted to glucose, and

one of his " hints " is to avoid excessive protein consumption. Atkins is not a

high protein diet (let me repeat that: Atkins is not a high protein diet). It's

a low carb, HIGH FAT diet.

Christie

[Guest guest]

Quoting Christie <christiekeith@...>:

> Actually, Atkins says in his book that protein *is* converted to glucose,

> and one of his " hints " is to avoid excessive protein consumption. Atkins

> is not a high protein diet (let me repeat that: Atkins is not a high

> protein diet). It's a low carb, HIGH FAT diet.

I'm always baffled as to why people continually refer to Atkins as a high-

protein diet when it is clearly a high-fat diet. The only explanation I can

come up with, other than willful ignorance, is that the low-fat mentality

has been drilled so deeply into their minds that they simply cannot

comprehend the idea that someone, a cardiologist no less, might actually

recommend a high-fat diet. Curiously, the very same people sometimes refer

to it as a " steak and eggs " diet, yet both of those foods derive a majority

of their calories from fat.

--

Berg

bberg@...

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Christie "

>

> Actually, Atkins says in his book that protein *is* converted to

glucose, and one of his " hints " is to avoid excessive protein

consumption. Atkins is not a high protein diet (let me repeat that:

Atkins is not a high protein diet). It's a low carb, HIGH FAT diet.

>

> Christie

>

Right. I bet that's what I did wrong when I tried it before -- ate

too much protein, not enough fat. So my blood sugars stayed too high

from the excess protein. Anybody old enough to remember the Stillman

diet -- The Doctor's Quick Weight Loss Diet? It was high lean

protein, low fat, no carb (well, as low as possible). That one I

believe gave a lot of people trouble long term, but in the 60's we

used to go on it all the time. I think it's often confused with

Atkins' plan, the media always seemed to lump them together as " high

protein " .

Ann

[Guest guest]

This is very interesting to me. A while back I used beef jerky as an

emergency snack food particularly while traveling and I found out that it

made me feel every bit as spacey and hypoglycemic as if I had been eating

crackers. It was homemade jerky. basically dried meat with nothing on it.

Irene

At 01:31 PM 8/21/03, you wrote:

> >> Ok, now hold on a second ... I have great respect for insulin meters

>but doesn't this counteract everything the Atkins folks (and others)

>are saying? The whole point of the ketogenic diet is that protein

>never gets turned into glucose, so the body has to use ketones

>for the brain. (I'm not saying it isn't true, just that there is a

>major discrepency in data!). <<

>

>Actually, Atkins says in his book that protein *is* converted to glucose,

>and one of his " hints " is to avoid excessive protein consumption. Atkins

>is not a high protein diet (let me repeat that: Atkins is not a high

>protein diet). It's a low carb, HIGH FAT diet.

>

>Christie

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> OK -- so the Inuit eating fresh raw fish may or may not have

been " ketogenic " ?

> Depending on how much fat they got? I would think that a population

that

> regularly lived off meat would get pretty used to converting protein

> to glucose, so they would not *have* to live off ketones.

>

Heidi

Please don't ask me to quote the source, as I don't keep links, but I

believe that the Inuit and other tribes ate the fatty parts of the

animals they killed. They would eat the brain, the fats, and feed

lean meats to the animals, and the organ meats to the children. Most

calories were from fat, only a few from protein (eg fish)

Jo

[Guest guest]

Here is an interesting post from another list (I have stripped it of all

identifying information).

This page shows the insulin and blood sugar effect of various foods.

It demonstrates that foods with protein DO stimulate insulin. Mono-

unsaturated fat is neutral with regard to insulin. Foods like nuts,

avocados, and olives stimulate hardly any rise in insulin or glucose.

http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/insulin.htm

Saturated and polyunsaturated fat magnify insulin response. Adding

sugars to protein (esp jelly beans) causes the greatest increase of

insulin levels. This is probably why XXXX notes benefits from eating

honey with meat and other animal protein. It multiples the healing

and assimilation of nutrients.

http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/giobesity.php

The evolutionary purpose of insulin was NOT to control blood sugar

levels. That is a recent adaptation we've been forced to make now

that our bodies are confronted with refined carbs like white flour

and refined sugar. The original function of insulin was to help

the body after prolonged famine. The bodies that were the most

efficient at utilizing nutrients from infrequent feasts passed

on their genes, and this is what we have today ( " Warrior Diet " ).

High insulin levels are good, provided they aren't a pathological

response to unstable blood sugar (diabetes, hypo/hyper- glycemia).

They show that your body is absorbing the proteins and fats from

foods, and using them to heal. However, if you eat an excess of

carbohydrates with fat and protein, it forms AGEs and your food

is converted into stored glycogen or body fat.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2001/aug2001_report_ages_01.html

[Guest guest]

--- In , Berg <bberg@c...>

wrote:

> I'm always baffled as to why people continually refer to Atkins as

a high-

> protein diet when it is clearly a high-fat diet.

The only explanation I can

> come up with, other than willful ignorance, is that the low-fat

mentality

> has been drilled so deeply into their minds that they simply cannot

> comprehend the idea that someone, a cardiologist no less, might

actually

> recommend a high-fat diet.

ACtually, Dr A himself USED to refer to it as a high protein diet. I

heard him myself on a TV interview 2-3 years ago, and also read it in

a couple of press articles (assuming he was quoted correctly!). But

people seem to jump on high protein being more dangerous than high

fat (which it is once you know that high fat isn't dangerous anyway)

and his own PR was becoming his own worst enemy. Then he switched

the message to high fat - whether this was due to poor PR or due to

his on-going learnings from his own work I don't know.

Jo