Re: Insulin, was The Warrior Diet

[Guest guest]

>I have no idea whether lions and tigers (oh my!) are in ketosis. Have you

>read they aren't or are you just assuming?

I've never heard that they ARE in ketosis, and you'd think someone

would mention that with all the ketosis controversy. The VLC (Very Low Carb)

folks claim ketosis is natural, and use the Inuit as an example. Most

of the other folks claim it is NOT natural, it is only for emergencies

like starvation. But any mention of " ketosis " in felines is in

reference to diabetes or liver conditions ... nothing about " natural "

ketosis ... the vets don't seem to think that felines are supposed to

be in ketosis.

Also there are those mentions of " glucose being the normal mammalian

brain fuel " . If carnivores are supposed to burn ketones, you'd think

someone would have noticed by now, as a lot of lab work is done

on zoo animals. I suppose I'd have to ask a zoo vet! Hmmm ... that

would be interesting, take some ketostix to the zoo and get some

tiger urine!

Wanna make any bets? How many people think tigers are in a

constant state of ketosis? How many people think tigers

have the ability to convert protiens to glucose, at least enough

to keep them OUT of ketosis? I'm writing a letter to the zoo!

>I don't know what you mean *without* 70% fat since my opinion is that the

>high fat would make it less likely that you'd burn protein, but if you have a

>diet that is 20% protein, 5% carbs, and 75% fat, and you need the 20% protein

for

>you protein needs such as muscle-building, antibodies, enzymes, etc, etc,

>like all of the other traditional cultures who all ate roughly that same amount

>of protein, wouldn't you rather burn the fat, which you have an excess of, than

>the protein, of which you have enough for your body's basic protein-related

>needs?

Hmmm ... that's a point, I keep forgetting that " protein limit " . Come to

think of it, if tigers are eating antelope, how much fat are THEY getting?

Maybe they don't need all that much fat and can digest more protein.

I know my snake didn't get much fat -- baby mice are just very lean.

Humans can't live off rabbits (rabbit starvation) but coyotes can.

The more I think about it, the less I think humans are really well

adapted to be carnivores.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>

>On a related note, cats especially did not evolve having any dietary

carbohydrate, and obtain all their stored glucogen from the ingestion of protein

and fat. Even the die-hard kibble pushers in mainstream vet research are now

acknowledging that feeding carbs to kitties is behind the epidemic of feline

diabetes.

>

>As far as humans go, we unquestionably can get glucose from protein, but I

expect that at 70 percent fat, this is a minor factor. Also, I have no idea how

this all works once you don't want to lose any more weight. When I get there

I'll let you know what happens to me. <G>

OK, that answers my question. Cats are evolved to deal with turning protein into

glucose, so they don't respond to a no-carb diet by going into ketosis. *In

theory* some humans might do the same -- esp. isolated groups like the Inuit,

who have done without carbs for a long time. It would not be a " minor factor " to

them, because, like the cats, they were living off the same diet for many

generations, and the state of ketosis is less efficient, and we tend to

gravitate to a state of the most efficiency.

Whether or not in fact that is the case, would have to be answered by finding a

group of Inuit living off a traditional diet and testing them. But they don't

look overly thin in the old pictures either, so in any case they can live off a

no-carb diet and still be a bit plump.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>> I have no idea why, but I never received the email that Heidi is responding

to. Who's it from, Christie?

LOL, yes, it was from me....I am getting my list mail out of order today, may be

happening to you also.

>> Unless it was explained elsewhere in the email, I personally do not see from

whence the conclusion is to be drawn that cats do not respond to a low-carb

diet by entering ketosis. The first email (which may or may not be complete for

all I know, damn ! :-P ) states that cats get their energy from " fat

and protein " which indicates to me that they must go into ketosis or else it

would all come from protein. <<

Vet researchers who are looking at ketogenic diets and siezure activity have

found it's extremely hard to get dogs and cats into a state of ketosis using

diet. They conclude (rightly or wrongly, I don't know) that dogs and cats are

naturally resistant to ketosis.

Cats (large and small) evolved eating virutally no carbohydrate whatsover, and

have no known dietary requirement for carbohydrate. They make all their stored

glycogen from dietary protein AND FAT. Cats have been shown to get as much as 70

percent of their calories from fat in a wild prey diet. I honestly do not know

how this is distinguished from the " lyplosis/ketosis " state as described by

Atkins for humans, but my ASSUMPTION is the absence of ketone bodies in the

urine?

I mentioned also that even mainstream vet researchers are admitting that feeding

carbs to cats appears to be the cause, or at least a cause, of the epidemic of

feline diabetes that is currently sweeping through this country.

Let's see... I think I also said something about trying to use ketogenic diets

for weight loss in dogs, but I can't remember now what I said.

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistic Husbandry Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com/

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/22/03 10:32:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

christiekeith@... writes:

> Cats (large and small) evolved eating virutally no carbohydrate whatsover,

> and have no known dietary requirement for carbohydrate. They make all their

> stored glycogen from dietary protein AND FAT. Cats have been shown to get as

> much as 70 percent of their calories from fat in a wild prey diet. I honestly

> do not know how this is distinguished from the " lyplosis/ketosis " state as

> described by Atkins for humans, but my ASSUMPTION is the absence of ketone

> bodies in the urine?

Thanks for filling me in Christie ;-) You know what, I never got the

" Another Warrior Diet Report " post either, but had to read it from the first

response

to it! :-/

So hmm.... I thought humans couldn't burn fat except through ketosis. Is

that true? If it is the cat studies don't seem to have any relevance. If it's

not, then an absence of ketosis is no indication that we're burning protein and

not fat.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

I don't think, however, that any of the VLC people suggest ketosis as a

lifelong goal. It's just temporary.

>The VLC (Very Low Carb)

>folks claim ketosis is natural, and use the Inuit as an example.

-

[Guest guest]

>So hmm.... I thought humans couldn't burn fat except through ketosis. Is

>that true? If it is the cat studies don't seem to have any relevance. If it's

>not, then an absence of ketosis is no indication that we're burning protein and

>not fat.

>

>Chris

You know, I looked this up in Atkins' new book ... I keep hearing

people say " you are either in ketosis or glucosis " like those are the

the only two states possible, and I figured they were misquoting him.

But that's basically what he says: " Lipolysis results in the production

of ketones (that's ketosis) " . (Page 57, also Page 94)

That is very much at odds with other researchers, who basically

write about 3 states:

1. The Krebs cycle, where glucose and fat both turn into 2 types of pyruvic

acid, and the two combine to create lactic acid, which goes

into the liver and is turned into glucose. That, they say, is the

normal route for a person in good shape.

2. The ketosis cycle, where, the fat turns into 1

kind of pyruvic acid, but, lacking glucose, it turns into ketones

instead of lactic acid, and the ketones, which are used by

the brain and also excreted. This is the " starvation state "

that they try to induce in kids with seizures.

3. Glucose burning, where just glycogen is burned.

Used for short, heavy lifting or when a person can't access

their fat stores readily. Some people think this

is the " normal " route, and some think it is " normal "

only because we as a people are out of shape (hence

the rat experiments).

Granted some people in this group agree

with Atkins and some agree with the other camp,

and there is some disagreement as to how to get folks from

type 3 to type 1. But that is where I've been confused --

I did not think Atkins really wrote what he did! I read

some of the Karl Loren reference and he agrees with

Atkins, it would seem. They are talking about different

processes: Atkins is talking about breakdown of fats

in the liver, and the exercise folks are talking about

production of energy in the muscles. Since they

are two different organs, it's hard to compare them!

I've been mainly interested in fat breakdown *between*

meals though, because I don't think my body accesses

it's own fat stores correctly.

-- Heidi

Here is the " company line " as far as fat burning:

http://www.protraineronline.com/past/nov16/low.cfm

Fat can only be metabolized via Krebs cycle oxidation. It is essential to

recognize that a reduction in Krebs cycle intermediates: whether it is the

result of (1) low carbohydrate diets, (2) no carbohydrate diets, or (3)

excessive prolonged aerobic sessions, resulting in a diminished rate of ATP

production from fat metabolism. When carbohydrate stores are depleted in the

body, the rate at which fat is metabolized is reduced. Therefore carbohydrates

are essential in the ability to metabolize fat. It is only the free fatty acids

that are metabolized via the Krebs cycle that are used in ATP production that go

toward reducing bodyfat levels.

Here is the Atkins/Loren version:

http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p118.htm

Ketone Production

When fats are absorbed through the walls of the small intestines, the glycerol

is separated from the fatty acids, and the fatty acids are broken into pieces in

the liver. The pieces are known as ketone bodies.

Ketone bodies are used as a source of energy, and like glucose, ketone bodies

eventually become carbon dioxide and water. The production of ketone bodies is a

part of normal fat metabolism, and it is the way that fat is used.

The amount of ketones formed in the liver depends on the amount of glucose or

glycogen (stored glucose) available for use as energy. This reverse ratio means

that fewer ketones will be produced in the presence of a lot of glucose. The

reason for this is that insulin depresses the formation of ketone bodies. When

glucose is being used for energy, ketones are not needed in large amounts. On

the other hand, in the absence of adequate insulin, the body metabolizes stored

fats to produce the energy that the body's tissues require.

The action of the pituitary gland on the formation of ketones is just the

opposite. Pituitary hormones mobilize fat, and favor the formation of ketones in

the liver, thereby decreasing the power of tissues to consume glucose.

What Is Ketosis?

As we have seen in previous articles, when the glucose available for energy use

exceeds the tissues' needs, the glucose, under the influence of insulin, is

converted to glycogen and to body fat. But when there are more ketone bodies

available for energy use than are needed by the tissues, they cannot be

converted into fat storage. They accumulate in the blood, and are excreted in

the urine. This is called ketosis.

[Guest guest]

>Heidi-

>

>I don't think, however, that any of the VLC people suggest ketosis as a

>lifelong goal. It's just temporary.

>

> -

I agree. Though the reason this is an issue for me is that I have

coworkers who do VLC, and of course would like me to also,

and they DO seem to want to stay in a state of constant ketosis.

My observations are that they have problems with blood sugar

(have major problems if they skip a meal) and are much

grouchier than they were pre-diet (cortisol issues?). Neither

of which encourages me to try this (yeah, I know you are

going to say they are not getting enough fat!).

My goal is to find a diet where I can lose weight, skip

meals, and not be grouchy. Then perhaps I can restore

my coworkers to their previous non-grouchy state ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

> Wanna make any bets? How many people think tigers are in a

> constant state of ketosis? How many people think tigers

> have the ability to convert protiens to glucose, at least enough

> to keep them OUT of ketosis? I'm writing a letter to the zoo!

If tigers need glucose, then their only source would be protein. If

the tiger lives in a very hot region, his prey is unlikely to carry a

lot of fat, therefor his diet will be high in protein. If he lives

in a cold region, he will be eating a lot more fat and less protein

in comparion to his hot-climate relative.

Ketones are produced when fat is burned for energy, therefore the

cold-climate tiger may well be in ketosis, where the hot-climate

tiger isn't.

The argument about whether ketones are produced from body fat or

dietary fat comes into play here. If the body is in ketosis ONLY when

body fat is burned (not dietary fat) then neither tiger will be in

ketosis, because hte animal will not be carrying excess fat that

needs to be burned as energy. However if ketones are produced when

dietary fat is burned then the cold-climate tiger will be producing

more ketones than the hot-climate tiger with the higher protein/lower

fat diet. (Lions are a different story - I believe they only live in

hot climates)

Then there's the definition of ketosis - many people believe that you

are only in ketosis if it shows on urine testing strips. However,

all this shows is EXCESS ketones that are being excreted because the

body doesn't need them. However, the body can be in ketosis and use

all ketones for fuel without excreting any. I would put my money on

this being the case with wild animals eating their natural diet. I

think excess ketones are excreted only when their isn't enough

dietary fat and the body starts burning body fat. Dietary fat

ketones aren't excreted because the animal/person stops eating when

they have had enough (theoretically).

Just my thoughts!

Jo

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

I think it's practically unquestionable that that's their problem. Yes,

I'm an extreme case, but that just makes me a more illuminating illustration.

>(yeah, I know you are

>going to say they are not getting enough fat!).

-

[Guest guest]

>Heidi-

>

>I think it's practically unquestionable that that's their problem. Yes,

>I'm an extreme case, but that just makes me a more illuminating illustration.

:

See, I KNEW you were going to say that!

Some people seem to have digestive problems

and say they get ill off fat too (I used to,

so I can relate).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:31:42 -0000

" annbekins " <annbekins@...> wrote:

> ,

> This is great! For years I've read in various places that fats have

> no effect on blood sugar, when I knew that a lot of fat DOES raise my

> blood sugar. This explanation really matches my experience. Thanks

> for posting it! That part about needing insulin for blood sugar only

> since sugar and white flour have dominated our eating shows why Type

> II diabetes is on the rise.

> Ann

>

Ann,

Glad you enjoyed it. I'm still working through the articles before I

post my comments.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:08:35 -0700

Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote:

> I've never heard that they ARE in ketosis, and you'd think someone

> would mention that with all the ketosis controversy. The VLC (Very Low Carb)

> folks claim ketosis is natural, and use the Inuit as an example. Most

> of the other folks claim it is NOT natural, it is only for emergencies

> like starvation. But any mention of " ketosis " in felines is in

> reference to diabetes or liver conditions ... nothing about " natural "

> ketosis ... the vets don't seem to think that felines are supposed to

> be in ketosis.

I'm curious about the claims for the Inuit. IIRC, someone recorded that

the Inuit's metabolism was so efficient that there high fat diet did not

produce any unused/excess ketones.

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:01:48 -0000

" jopollack2001 " <jopollack2001@...> wrote:

>

> Then there's the definition of ketosis - many people believe that you

> are only in ketosis if it shows on urine testing strips. However,

> all this shows is EXCESS ketones that are being excreted because the

> body doesn't need them. However, the body can be in ketosis and use

> all ketones for fuel without excreting any. I would put my money on

> this being the case with wild animals eating their natural diet. I

> think excess ketones are excreted only when their isn't enough

> dietary fat and the body starts burning body fat. Dietary fat

> ketones aren't excreted because the animal/person stops eating when

> they have had enough (theoretically).

Okay,

well if this is correct, then it answers the question in my previous

post.

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:04:50 -0700

Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote:

>

> 2. The ketosis cycle, where, the fat turns into 1

> kind of pyruvic acid, but, lacking glucose, it turns into ketones

> instead of lactic acid, and the ketones, which are used by

> the brain and also excreted. This is the " starvation state "

> that they try to induce in kids with seizures.

>

I just read a study the other day, and the summary said that during

ketosis, while blood glucose is low, glucose in the brain remains

constant. So it would appear that the body " spares " glucose during this

state by using ketones for brain fuel. It also seemed to suggest that

the body breaks down *fat* for glucose if it needs it for the brain

supply.

Hmmm...now for the life of me I don't know where on the net I saw that.