Re: Myrtlewood vs. Myrtle Oil vs. Bay Laurel

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> Thought I'd throw in some information here before everyone gets all

excited

> about the Oregon/California Myrtlewood as an aromatic to be distilled or

> tinctured for perfumes. This species (Umbellularia californica) is a

> hardwood used for furniture, boxes and decorative items like the perfume

> bottle that has been mentioned/pictured. Aka California Bay, which

> discussed earlier is not appropriate as a replacement for Bay Laurel

(Laurus

> nobilis) which is grown in the Mediterranean, either, where the

leaves are

> the plant part distilled. U. californica has very toxic ketone

properties

> and could be dangerous if substituted for either Bay Laurel or Red/Green

> Myrtle. No essential oil in the wood. Red (and Green) Myrtle

essential oil

> comes from Myrtus communis grown in Corsica (green-ct.linalool), France,

> Yugoslavia, Tunisia and Morocco (red-ct. cineole). The branches are the

> plant part distilled.

>

> So, sorry if this dampens the enthusiasm, just wanted to remind

everyone to

>

>

>

> Be well,

> Marcia Elston

Dear Marcia,

Thanks so much for the clarification. I think Janita and I were both

going nuts trying to find our old info on the topic. Makes me curious

as to whether the old " myrtle oil " I have is just spiked with bay. It

definitely smells like old bay oil. Have you distilled Laurelis

nobilis? I know that yield is supposed to be highest in August. I am

planning a trip down to the redwoods this summer so that I can distill

some. I agree with you completely about not distilling until you are

entirely sure of exactly what you are distilling and whether it has

toxic constituents.

Certain plants, such as sage, will yield an oil that is very high, or

relatively low in the toxic constituent thujone. Thujone levels are

at their highest in the summer time. Unfortunately this is also when

oil yields are at their highest. Thus, sage should be distilled in

the winter. Common names of plants can be very misleading also. For

example - the " Western Sage " that I so badly wish to distill is not

actually a sage, but is an Artemesia.

>

One last question for Marcia, or any of you other lurking distillers -

is there anyone here who has experience distilling blue oils such as

yarrow and various artemesias. I am interested in an Eastern Oregon

trip, but I am having trouble finding info on artemesia distillation.

Thanks!

Jess Ring

[Guest guest]

> Re: Myrtlewood vs. Myrtle Oil vs.

> Bay Laurel

>

> Dear Marcia,

> Thanks so much for the clarification. I think Janita and I

> were both going nuts trying to find our old info on the

> topic. Makes me curious as to whether the old " myrtle oil " I

> have is just spiked with bay. It definitely smells like old

> bay oil. Have you distilled Laurelis nobilis? I know that

> yield is supposed to be highest in August. I am planning a

> trip down to the redwoods this summer so that I can distill

> some. I agree with you completely about not distilling until

> you are entirely sure of exactly what you are distilling and

> whether it has toxic constituents.

> Certain plants, such as sage, will yield an oil that is very

> high, or relatively low in the toxic constituent thujone.

> Thujone levels are at their highest in the summer time.

> Unfortunately this is also when oil yields are at their

> highest. Thus, sage should be distilled in the winter.

> Common names of plants can be very misleading also. For

> example - the " Western Sage " that I so badly wish to distill

> is not actually a sage, but is an Artemesia.

> >

> One last question for Marcia, or any of you other lurking

> distillers - is there anyone here who has experience

> distilling blue oils such as yarrow and various artemesias.

> I am interested in an Eastern Oregon trip, but I am having

> trouble finding info on artemesia distillation.

>

> Thanks!

>

> Jess Ring

Hi Again, Jess,

I was really rushed in my last post . . . Laurus nobilis does not grow in

California (only in the Mediterranean) and California Bay is not the same

plant - it's the one full of keytones as I pointed out. Don't waste your

time trying to find it to distill.

Now, the blue oils. I've distilled several (mainly for hydrosol).

Sturtz at Oregon State does a wonderful distillation workshop (usually with

Jeanne Rose) in Corvalis every year or two focusing on Artemisias. He is

the one who discovered Artemisia ludiviciana, another fabulous blue oil

especially nice in soaps and skincare products. I've distilled Artemisia

species found here in WA . . . They are mostly a cross-pollinated variety of

A. tridentada and other species. Be very careful to either distill outside

or have PLENTY of ventilation, as you probably already know - just wanted to

reiterate that for anyone new wanting to try these. Here's an interesting

page with lots of Artemisia links that I put together in 1999. Hasn't been

updated since then and some of the links may go to parked sites now and not

the original pages. http://www.wingedseed.com/Marcia/Glenwood%20Canyoni.htm

Be well,

Marcia Elston

Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence, est. 1988

http://www.wingedseed.com Online 3/95

http://www.aromaconnection.org Group Blog 2/07

" Historically, the most terrible things - war, genocide and slavery - have

resulted from obedience, not disobedience. "

Zinn

[Guest guest]

" Marcia Elston " <samara@...> wrote:

>>Thought I'd throw in some information here before everyone gets all

excited about the Oregon/California Myrtlewood as an aromatic to be

distilled or tinctured for perfumes. This species (Umbellularia

californica) ... has very toxic ketone properties.... " <<

Thanks for this info- but there are many references on the web on

Myrtlewood information sites to oil being distilled from the leaves

for perfumes, candles, incense, etc. For example:

http://www.nwbotanicals.org/oak/altagri/cropoutlook.htm

http://www.myrtlewood.com/story.html

http://www.paleotechnics.com/Articles/Bayarticle.html

What do you make of that? Are they just working with low

concentrations of the oil in the products, or is this outdated info,

or what? I'm confused now, since your insight seems very good, and I

also found a page talking about the toxicity:

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/y4351e/y4351e08.htm (scroll down to

Minor Leaf Oils for the entry), and yet the oil is discussed as a

perfume and condiment, and the leaves are mentioned as a substitute

for Bay in cooking. I also found that the leaves contain Bufotenine,

which is the hallucinogenic chemical in those toads that all the kids

are licking these days

As a newbie, I'd love some thoughts on this. I'm just starting to

research this tree, since I'll be living near many of them, and

enjoying them regardless of their perfume uses or lack of.

Strength & Wisdom,

leavesofjoy / Micah

www.al-kemi.com

[Guest guest]

> " Marcia Elston " <samara@> wrote:

> >>Thought I'd throw in some information here before everyone gets all

> excited about the Oregon/California Myrtlewood as an aromatic to be

> distilled or tinctured for perfumes. This species (Umbellularia

> californica) ... has very toxic ketone properties.... " <<

For novices, such as myself, would you mind writing 2-3 sentences on what " toxic

ketone "

means on a practical level?

Juniper Ridge (whose incense you sell), sells Umbellularia californica, bay

laurel soap. The

ketones would matter in in a perfume, but not in a soap? I've used the soap, to

no ill effect,

and I have sensitive skin.

http://www.juniperridge.com/sumbc_soap.htm

Thank you,

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> > Re: Myrtlewood vs. Myrtle Oil vs.

> > Bay Laurel

> >

> > Dear Marcia,

> > Thanks so much for the clarification. I think Janita and I

> > were both going nuts trying to find our old info on the

> > topic. Makes me curious as to whether the old " myrtle oil " I

> > have is just spiked with bay. It definitely smells like old

> > bay oil. Have you distilled Laurelis nobilis? I know that

> > yield is supposed to be highest in August. I am planning a

> > trip down to the redwoods this summer so that I can distill

> > some. I agree with you completely about not distilling until

> > you are entirely sure of exactly what you are distilling and

> > whether it has toxic constituents.

> > Certain plants, such as sage, will yield an oil that is very

> > high, or relatively low in the toxic constituent thujone.

> > Thujone levels are at their highest in the summer time.

> > Unfortunately this is also when oil yields are at their

> > highest. Thus, sage should be distilled in the winter.

> > Common names of plants can be very misleading also. For

> > example - the " Western Sage " that I so badly wish to distill

> > is not actually a sage, but is an Artemesia.

> > >

> > One last question for Marcia, or any of you other lurking

> > distillers - is there anyone here who has experience

> > distilling blue oils such as yarrow and various artemesias.

> > I am interested in an Eastern Oregon trip, but I am having

> > trouble finding info on artemesia distillation.

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > Jess Ring

>

> Hi Again, Jess,

>

> I was really rushed in my last post . . . Laurus nobilis does not

grow in

> California (only in the Mediterranean) and California Bay is not

the same

> plant - it's the one full of keytones as I pointed out. Don't

waste your

> time trying to find it to distill.

>

Hi Marcia -

Thanks again for the info. I think I am still in a plant quandry,

however, as I remember reading somewhere that there is another

myrtle, aside from California Bay, that exists at higher elevations

in Oregon. This is the one that I remember reading about toxicity on.

I'll have to keep searching, I had originally thought the info was in

Guenther, but alas, nothing has popped up. Do not worry my friend, I

won't distill anything I do not have a very very clear picture

about.

> Now, the blue oils. I've distilled several (mainly for hydrosol).

> Sturtz at Oregon State does a wonderful distillation workshop

(usually with

> Jeanne Rose) in Corvalis every year or two focusing on Artemisias.

He is

> the one who discovered Artemisia ludiviciana, another fabulous blue

oil

> especially nice in soaps and skincare products. I've distilled

Artemisia

> species found here in WA . . . They are mostly a cross-pollinated

variety of,

> A. tridentada and other species.

this sound wonderful, Marcia, let me know when you distill some more!

Be very careful to either distill outside

> or have PLENTY of ventilation, as you probably already know - just

wanted to

> reiterate that for anyone new wanting to try these. Here's an

interesting

> page with lots of Artemisia links that I put together in 1999.

Hasn't been

> updated since then and some of the links may go to parked sites now

and not

> the original pages. http://www.wingedseed.com/Marcia/Glenwood%

20Canyoni.htm

>

> Be well,

> Marcia Elston

Marcia - thank you again for being such great guide in this grand

world of west coast distillation. THe Jeannie Rose and george Sturtz

class sound like a dream come true.

Hope you are having a good day!

Jess ring

[Guest guest]

---

>

> For novices, such as myself, would you mind writing 2-3 sentences

on what " toxic ketone "

> means on a practical level?

>

> Juniper Ridge (whose incense you sell), sells Umbellularia

californica, bay laurel soap. The

> ketones would matter in in a perfume, but not in a soap? I've used

the soap, to no ill effect,

> and I have sensitive skin.

>

> http://www.juniperridge.com/sumbc_soap.htm

>

> Thank you,

>

Dear ,

Ketones are not all toxic, from what I understand. Toxic ketones are

fragrant portions of an essential oil that have been proven to be

carcinogenic (usually in rodent studies.) I would assume that

California bay shouldn't be used in soap or perfume, but I do not

know excatly how toxic it is. Some Essential oils that have toxic

components are still used, just sparingly or with long breaks in

between use - Western Red Cedar and " Dalmation Sage " both have the

toxic ketone thujone. However, many feel that thujone levels are low

enough in these plants to warrant continued use.

Hope this helps. I'll post a basic summary of what a ketone actually

is (I believe it is an alcohol based structure, but I need to check

my memory.) and I'll repost.

Jess Ring

>

[Guest guest]

> Juniper Ridge (whose incense you sell), sells Umbellularia

> californica, bay laurel soap. The ketones would matter in in

> a perfume, but not in a soap? I've used the soap, to no ill

> effect, and I have sensitive skin.

>

> http://www.juniperridge.com/sumbc_soap.htm

>

> Thank you,

>

>

Hi - the soap that juniper ridge makes uses the crushed, dried

leaves, not the essential oil - big difference in strength and potential

toxicity. Never can a simple 2-3 sentences convey complete information when

talking about essential oil chemistry and toxicity. Coupled with the fact

that a great majority of essential oils have no formal toxicity testing,

information is changing all the time.

Also, many popular aromatherapy books have used herbal information to

describe phytotherapeutic or medicinal affects which is misleading because

the herb/plant is not the same as the concentrated essential oil derived

from it. I cannot emphasize enough that it is important to communicate (with

suppliers especially) using the exact Latin binomial of the oil you are

seeking/using, establishing the specific part of the plant extracted (in the

case of CA Bay, it is the leaves that are distilled, not the wood or bark),

the method (steam distilled, hydrodistilled, dry distilled, solvent

extracted, etc.) the country of origin (of the plant-many are harvested in

one country and sent to another for processing) and the month/year

extracted, as well as whether it is a fresh or dried material extraction,

and establish specific chemotype if you can. This will give you a framework

from which to concentrate appropriate research. All of this can be

overwhelming when you are starting out. I think all of us would agree,

however, that if natural perfumery is to survive the onslaught of pressure

from regulators and researchers who would seek to ban or regulate access to

raw materials, keeping abreast of safety information may become a necessary

part of the natural perfumer's work. As Tony Burfield so aptly presents,

major perfume and fragrance organizations are muddying the waters even

further by grouping naturally derived essential oils with their synthetic

counterparts in an effort to create standards for use that many of us would

disagree with.

That said, here's some general information about possible essential oil

toxicity by plant family groupings and a few examples of the oils in that

family. This is far from a complete explanation or list, but gives you a

starting point to developing further information on your own. The major

resource available to aromatherapists to date is Sylla Sheppard-Hanger's

Practitioner Manual (available from us), however it is in need of updating;

I've been pressuring Sylla, but she's very busy, too. There are few

aromatherapy research databases available, one from Bob in France is

probably the most comprehensive information about current research into the

effects of essential oils. The toxic affects from the list of chemicals

contained in essential oils range from mild to dangerous (the latter usually

referring to ingestion), however skin applications can also range from

irritating to dangerous and can act on the liver without actual ingestion, a

fact that not many people know.

FAMILY

Labiatae - contains irritant phenols (basil, savory, oreganos, thymes)

Compositae - contains sensitizing lactone (costus, elecampane)

ceae - contains irritant, sensitizing cinnamic aldehyde (cassia,

cinnamon), also carcinogenic safrole (camphor-both yellow and brown and

sassafras). Some species also are phototoxic - long list including Bay leaf

(Laurus nobilis).

Cruciferae - contains irritant allyl isothiocyanate (horseradish, mustard)

Myrtaceae - contains irritant phenol eugenol (allspice, clove)

Rutaceae - contains toxic ketones (buchu, rue) also contains furocoumarins

[phototoxic] (citrus)

Umbelliferae - contains furocoumarins [phototoxic] (angelica).

Verbenaceae - contains furocoumarins (lemon verbena)

If you looked at the links that Micah provided, specifically

http://www.paleotechnics.com/Articles/Bayarticle.html , they talk about how

much stronger the CA Bay leaves are than L. nobilis, stating that they once

used as many as they would have of the L. nobilis in cooking and had to

throw out the sauce as it became too strong to eat. They are talking about

the leaf itself; how might that translate into safe usage when thinking

about using the concentrated essential oil in a product to put on the skin?

Now, segueing back to ketones . . . It might not necessarily only be ketone

levels that might concern us with CA Bay oil, but perhaps some of the other

chemical toxicity associated with the ceae family. Both species are

from this family, however, it appears that the CA Bay is much stronger and

the leaves probably contain more essential oil than L. nobilis, and

obviously their chemistry will be different. I have never seen a msgc on CA

Bay oil which would be extremely helpful to sort this all out.

To further confuse you, not all ketones are toxic (about 65%) and many fairy

tales abound with erroneous claims of extreme neurotoxic and abortive

properties attributed to ketones. Many oils used in foods and flavoring

containe ketones and have been allowed for internal consumption based on the

acceptable standards of dilution in the finished product. The operative

word here is 'dilution'; perfumes are one of the more strongly concentrated

applications of essential ois, absolutes and concretes, and can be

sensitizing, phototoxic, irritating and harmful chemicals could collect in

the liver simply by inhalation. I certainly don't mean to be overly

alarming; here is the basic safety information on my website; the new

website we are currently working on will be more updated.

http://www.wingedseed.com/Information/BE_SAFE_AND_SMART.htm

This diatribe has now gone far beyond a simple explanation - if you are

still reading this and haven't fallen asleep, I hope it has been helpful.

Be well,

Marcia Elston

Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence, est. 1988

http://www.wingedseed.com Online 3/95

http://www.aromaconnection.org Group Blog 2/07

" Historically, the most terrible things - war, genocide and slavery - have

resulted from obedience, not disobedience. "

Zinn

[Guest guest]

> Hi - the soap that juniper ridge makes uses the crushed, dried

> leaves, not the essential oil - big difference in strength and potential

> toxicity. Never can a simple 2-3 sentences convey complete information when

> talking about essential oil chemistry and toxicity. Coupled with the fact

> that a great majority of essential oils have no formal toxicity testing,

> information is changing all the time.

>

> Also, many popular aromatherapy books have used herbal information to

> describe phytotherapeutic or medicinal affects which is misleading because

> the herb/plant is not the same as the concentrated essential oil derived

> from it. . . . .

(snip)

not all ketones are toxic (about 65%) and many fairy

> tales abound with erroneous claims of extreme neurotoxic and abortive

> properties attributed to ketones. Many oils used in foods and flavoring

> containe ketones and have been allowed for internal consumption based on the

> acceptable standards of dilution in the finished product. The operative

> word here is 'dilution'; perfumes are one of the more strongly concentrated

> applications of essential ois, absolutes and concretes, and can be

> sensitizing, phototoxic, irritating and harmful chemicals could collect in

> the liver simply by inhalation. I certainly don't mean to be overly

> alarming; here is the basic safety information on my website; the new

> website we are currently working on will be more updated.

> http://www.wingedseed.com/Information/BE_SAFE_AND_SMART.htm

>

> This diatribe has now gone far beyond a simple explanation - if you are

> still reading this and haven't fallen asleep, I hope it has been helpful.

>

> Be well,

> Marcia Elston

Marcia,

Thank you so much for your gracious and lengthy reply. It was very helpful,

including the

simple point that " because the herb/plant is not the same as the concentrated

essential

oil " . When I have advanced far enough along that I am busy trying to distill

the native, and

other, plants around me, I will advance with care, plant taxonomy knowledge in

hand. (It IS

a bit overwhelming how much there is to know.)

Perhaps your comments be put into the file section of the group archives? I

will also look

at the guidelines on your website ( I was about to place an order anyway :-)

Thanks again,