Re: warrior diet update and questions

[Guest guest]

Suze,

I had problems eating enough at night as well. They've gone away, and

probably will for you over time too.

Ori isn't necessarily agianst eating during the day, so I think it would make

sense to eat a little during the day. You might need to ease your way in,

eat very little during the day, but do it when hungry/famished... but over time

your stomach will adjust to fitting more food in at once. It would help to do

your work out prior to eating your meal.

I also think it helps to have a small amount of caffeine or to do 20 minutes

of exercise whenever the famished or otherwise bad feelings come on.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hmm... Ori says to eat the protein first, then the carbs.

My meal looks something like this:

3 raw egg yolks

1/2 lb raw heart

1 glass kombucha

3 egg ommelette

1 quart kefir

stir fry of vegetables

bowl of ice cream

1 more quart kefir

perhaps more ice cream (homemade, low-sugar, blueberry)

bowl of wild blueberries

1 slice sprouted rye Manna bread with lots of butter

Chris

In a message dated 9/11/03 4:33:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

honeysuckles@... writes:

> Are you eating a meal of salad, then meat, then carb and then hoping to eat

> more later? Maybe that doesn't work. (I haven't tried it.)

>

> What we do is eat a meal that consists of salad. Later we eat protein.

> Later we eat carbs. (Mostly it's the kids eating the carbs as hubby and I

> eat the most salad and meat and are full.)

>

> Besides that idea, are you doing anything different than you did the first 3

> days?

>

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt

[Guest guest]

Suze,

Are you eating a meal of salad, then meat, then carb and then hoping to eat

more later? Maybe that doesn't work. (I haven't tried it.)

What we do is eat a meal that consists of salad. Later we eat protein.

Later we eat carbs. (Mostly it's the kids eating the carbs as hubby and I

eat the most salad and meat and are full.)

Besides that idea, are you doing anything different than you did the first 3

days?

Rhea

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/11/03 7:38:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

honeysuckles@... writes:

> Please let me know what he says in the book. Maybe the salad reference was

> for those who want to eat during the day and that's when I'm supposed to be

> eating my salad, but I'd rather not. I have seen clearly that if I don't

> eat during the day my energy is great and if I do eat I'm tired and moving

> slow by 2 or 3 PM.

>

Rhea,

I have no idea! I don't have the book either. Funny you got that impression

from what you've read, b/c from the articles/interviews and posts on this

list I was under the impression everyone was supposed to eat some protein first,

and those who wanted to lose fat were supposed to eat all the protein first.

Hmm...

Chris

[Guest guest]

> Hmm... Ori says to eat the protein first, then the carbs.

Are you saying no salad before the protein? I haven't read the book, just

his interviews and the magazine and newspaper write-ups on his diet. Is

salad first for those who don't want to lose weight? Hmm, wondering where I

got the idea to eat a salad first in the evening and then protein. Well, it

has been working. LOL

Please let me know what he says in the book. Maybe the salad reference was

for those who want to eat during the day and that's when I'm supposed to be

eating my salad, but I'd rather not. I have seen clearly that if I don't

eat during the day my energy is great and if I do eat I'm tired and moving

slow by 2 or 3 PM.

Rhea

[Guest guest]

>>>Are you eating a meal of salad, then meat, then carb and then hoping to

eat

more later? Maybe that doesn't work. (I haven't tried it.)

---->a couple of times,i think, i ate salad first. and sometimes with the

protein. i'm so famished that salad doesn't always cut it...i need something

filling and fast! LOL

>>>What we do is eat a meal that consists of salad. Later we eat protein.

Later we eat carbs. (Mostly it's the kids eating the carbs as hubby and I

eat the most salad and meat and are full.)

---->so the salad fills you up for a bit? do you eat during the day? i've

done NO carbs, carbs *after* protein and carbs *with* protein. LOL. can't

seem to get enough food in no matter the sequence.

>>>>Besides that idea, are you doing anything different than you did the

first 3

days?

------>thinking...well, all i can think of is that i'm not eating enough

food the night before. this morning i was really hungry first thing in the

morning which is not typical for me. and i think it's because i didn't eat

enough last night.

before the warrior diet i only ate two meals a day anyway...one in the late

morning usually - which often was just a kefir smoothie, and one either

early evening or at night.

also, i got on the scale at the gym today and saw that i lost 2-3 lbs. in

the past week! yeowsa...i don't *need* to lose weight, although in the

*short* term i don't mind if it cleanses toxins, for example. no wonder in

some recent photos i thought my face looked drawn and thinner than usual

(when i lose weight it comes off my face and chest *first*. arghh!) but i

certainly have not been trying to lose weight.

maybe it will just take my body time to adjust. i just don't want it to

think we're going back to a *starvation* diet like i did when i was a

teenager. i have this fear that my body will think i'm not going to feed it

enough as when i was a teen, and go into overdrive to build up my fat stores

as a safety net :-(

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>for the past few days i've become weak and famished by early afternoon. not

>like the first 3 or 4 days of not eating during the day. i think the problem

>may be that i simply can't seem to eat enough at night! i eat about a meal's

>worth of food, then am too stuffed to eat more later on. this is not good!

>the weakness has interfered with my work and energy level. i'm still waiting

>on the book, so can't use it as a reference as to how to remedy this

>problem. any suggestions? should i just resolve to eat a little something

>during the day? what about just starting the eating phase earlier? if i

>snack around 2 or 3 p.m. i'll be able to get more food into myself and

>relieve the weakness and concentration issues.

You know, one thing might be how much starch you are getting. The Warrior Diet

DOES rely on your liver having enough glycogen. It isn't ketogenic. A lot of

people

on this list concentrate heavily on fat and protein, both of which fill you up

quickly.

But unless you are in a ketogenic state, your body wants stored glycogen AND

stored fat

to make it through the fasting times. So you might be not storing enough

glycogen, or,

you are storing it but cannot access it (I'm not sure all the reasons for this,

but it seems

to happen). Have you tried eating, say, a big baked potato for dinner? (with a

steak, for sure!).

Also, you don't have to concentrate all your eating into one meal. Eat a meal,

then have dessert,

then a snack ...

If you are really gaining fat, then I'd guess you are getting enough calories.

But

you might be retaining water or something ... you should NOT be having

concentration

issues. I got a little " fuzzy " during the day and eating a banana cured it.

Which is another point ... are you eating raw foods during the day? You can have

all

raw fruits and vegies and some protein (cooked or otherwise)... Ori says he

eats

up to half a chicken during the day. Us overweight people have plenty of

" reserve "

but you might not.;

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>> Please let me know what he says in the book. Maybe the salad reference was

>> for those who want to eat during the day and that's when I'm supposed to be

>> eating my salad, but I'd rather not. I have seen clearly that if I don't

>> eat during the day my energy is great and if I do eat I'm tired and moving

>> slow by 2 or 3 PM.

The salad is for everyone ... you should start your meal with a salad. Some

of the is was for enzymes, I think. Basically raw food is " daytime food " so you

don't

eat much raw food in the evening, but greens are the exception. People who eat

raw heart are also obviously the exception ...

I've been eating raw fruit during the day, partly because it is EASY and that

was one of my goals (getting out of the kitchen some!). I do start my evening

meal with a salad and/or soup, which fills me up. But for you folks who are

SKINNY, I think you need to use whatever works.

For what it is worth, there was a post here awhile back about the caloric

density of raw vs. cooked foods. Raw foods are often better for you, but

they are also often less calorically dense. I.e. a raw carrot gives you less

energy than a cooked carrot, because of digestibility etc. Ori uses mainly

cooked foods, which might make it easier for him to cram 4,000 calories

into an evening. His quote are from times when people were cooking their

food too. Paleo people didn't cook their food, but they appear to have

been really skinny. Healthy, but skinny.

-- Heidi

>>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/12/03 2:43:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> For what it is worth, there was a post here awhile back about the caloric

> density of raw vs. cooked foods. Raw foods are often better for you, but

> they are also often less calorically dense. I.e. a raw carrot gives you less

> energy than a cooked carrot, because of digestibility etc. Ori uses mainly

> cooked foods, which might make it easier for him to cram 4,000 calories

> into an evening. His quote are from times when people were cooking their

> food too. Paleo people didn't cook their food, but they appear to have

> been really skinny. Healthy, but skinny.

Plus raw food simply has more *volume*. So you have less space to fit the

same amount of calories.

Chris

[Guest guest]

You know, one thing might be how much starch you are getting. The Warrior

Diet

DOES rely on your liver having enough glycogen. It isn't ketogenic. A lot of

people

on this list concentrate heavily on fat and protein, both of which fill you

up quickly.

But unless you are in a ketogenic state, your body wants stored glycogen AND

stored fat

to make it through the fasting times. So you might be not storing enough

glycogen, or,

you are storing it but cannot access it (I'm not sure all the reasons for

this, but it seems

to happen). Have you tried eating, say, a big baked potato for dinner? (with

a steak, for sure!).

------>initially i wasn't eating many carbs except maybe a half pint of

kefir after my workout...and NT ice cream after dinner, which has maple

syrup in it. then, i started eating fried potatoes after my meal, then

*with* my meal. oh, and i guess beer would count as carbs and i've had that

typically with a pre-dinner snack of cheese and crispy almonds, but not

every day. but it's true that there've been days when i didn't get much

carbs at all.

>>>>Also, you don't have to concentrate all your eating into one meal. Eat a

meal, then have dessert,

then a snack ...

----->usually i do start with a small snack of cheese and nuts, then move on

to a meal. but i'm typically so hungry that i eat a lot in one meal - steak,

a big pile of spinach, fried potatoes/onions/peppers, kimchi and a glass of

kefir. followed by a big bowl of ice cream. which fills me up for the rest

of the night. i guess i'm having problems stretching out the eating phase

due to both hunger and my work schedule, because i often work at night after

dinner and don't have time to keep preparing food.

>>>If you are really gaining fat, then I'd guess you are getting enough

calories. But

you might be retaining water or something ... you should NOT be having

concentration

issues. I got a little " fuzzy " during the day and eating a banana cured it.

---->yeh, i've had a banana a few times. yesterday i was too weak and fuzzy

brained to respond to some posts, so i had a half glass of kefir, which did

the trick. would kefir be an " ok " thing to snack on? it would be the easiest

thing for me to snack on and seems to do the trick.

>>>Which is another point ... are you eating raw foods during the day? You

can have all

raw fruits and vegies and some protein (cooked or otherwise)... Ori says he

eats

up to half a chicken during the day. Us overweight people have plenty of

" reserve "

but you might not.;

----->is he eating *raw* chicken? i guess i could do that, but i'd want a

sauce to flavor it, and that would typically involve fat. i've munched on a

banana a few times. and one time i just ate a small bowl of kimchi. what i

*have* been doing is always drinking a recovery shake after a workout, which

includes about a half pint of kefir, whey (if i have it), goatein, and i

recently started adding a yolk, which is what i always used to do. one thing

i've noticed since doing the warrior diet is that i'm only eating a fraction

of the yolks/eggs that i used to!

btw, would NT stock be an ok thing to snack on during the day? or should

that be saved for nighttime?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>---->yeh, i've had a banana a few times. yesterday i was too weak and fuzzy

>brained to respond to some posts, so i had a half glass of kefir, which did

>the trick. would kefir be an " ok " thing to snack on? it would be the easiest

>thing for me to snack on and seems to do the trick.

" Weak and fuzzy brain " for me usually means high cortisol. Which

I often get if I eat something I'm allergic to (see if it happens more

after one food than another). When I eat something I'm allergic

to, all bets are off the next day, I CAN'T stabilize. I just have to

snack a little. And I know it isn't lack of glycogen becaue

I can measure my blood sugar and it isn't low (we had this

discussion, so I won't go into it any more!).

That said, a little bit of jerky seems to work really

well. Protein seems to work better with cortisol issues than

sugar/starch does, for me anyway. Broth works really well

too. You could check your pulse too ... see if it is high during

the weak/fuzzy periods.

>----->is he eating *raw* chicken? i guess i could do that, but i'd want a

>sauce to flavor it, and that would typically involve fat. i've munched on a

>banana a few times. and one time i just ate a small bowl of kimchi. what i

>*have* been doing is always drinking a recovery shake after a workout, which

>includes about a half pint of kefir, whey (if i have it), goatein, and i

>recently started adding a yolk, which is what i always used to do. one thing

>i've noticed since doing the warrior diet is that i'm only eating a fraction

>of the yolks/eggs that i used to!

You can legally eat anything that doesn't raise your blood sugar.

Eggs should be ok, I'd think. Based on his theories, I don't think

fat is an issue for the fasting time (he doesn't like it because of

toxins etc, and I'd think it wouldn't be good for folks who

want to lose weight). I use jerky because part of my goal

is to stay out of the kitchen.

>btw, would NT stock be an ok thing to snack on during the day? or should

>that be saved for nighttime?

From a philisophical viewpoint, he likes the idea of raw

food during the day. Because the Romans did. But he

does cook his meat! So I think stock should be fine. I

do eat broth at lunch, if I'm cooking it for the crew. Broth

seems to stabilize cortisol really, really fast, esp. if it

has salt and garlic. I pour it over some kimchi in

a bowl and make " kimchi soup " .

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:35:01 -0400

" Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>----->is he eating *raw* chicken? i guess i could do that, but i'd want a

>sauce to flavor it, and that would typically involve fat.

LOL! If he is he certainly didn't mention it in his book or interview.

Somehow I don't think so.

It Really Was The People's Car

http://tinyurl.com/mwbv

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:11:15 EDT

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

>Hmm... Ori says to eat the protein first, then the carbs.

>

>My meal looks something like this:

>3 raw egg yolks

>1/2 lb raw heart

>1 glass kombucha

>3 egg ommelette

>1 quart kefir

>stir fry of vegetables

>bowl of ice cream

>1 more quart kefir

>perhaps more ice cream (homemade, low-sugar, blueberry)

>bowl of wild blueberries

>1 slice sprouted rye Manna bread with lots of butter

>

>Chris

>

Hey thats a nice looking meal!

Ori says to start with subtle tasting foods at first, which generally

means salad type foods. The carbs he says to eat at the end of the meal

are the starchy ones.

It Really Was The People's Car

http://tinyurl.com/mwbv

[Guest guest]

>---->yeh, i've had a banana a few times. yesterday i was too weak and fuzzy

>brained to respond to some posts, so i had a half glass of kefir, which did

>the trick. would kefir be an " ok " thing to snack on? it would be the

easiest

>thing for me to snack on and seems to do the trick.

" Weak and fuzzy brain " for me usually means high cortisol. Which

I often get if I eat something I'm allergic to (see if it happens more

after one food than another).

--->but i only get that way when i haven't eaten enough....on a totally

empty stomach.

>>>When I eat something I'm allergic

to, all bets are off the next day, I CAN'T stabilize. I just have to

snack a little.

---->well, that could've been my problem too, but i tend to think it's more

likely because i simply couldn't eat enough the previous night. i lost

something like 2 or 3 lbs. in a week, so i'm clearly not eating enough to

maintain my weight. however, regarding my previous post about gaining fat, i

have to take that back. looking at the back of my thighs, where i have the

most adipose fat, i see that i've actually lost fat. i have no idea if i've

lost muscle though, it's harder to tell...

>>>>That said, a little bit of jerky seems to work really

well. Protein seems to work better with cortisol issues than

sugar/starch does, for me anyway. Broth works really well

too. You could check your pulse too ... see if it is high during

the weak/fuzzy periods.

---->i had thought of jerky, but don't like the first batch i made. however

it was sitting on my counter in a ball jar, and i decided to try it again

this morning, and it was OK. i like the idea of jerky, i'll just have to

experiment til i get a flavor i like. this batch was destined for the dogs,

but i think *i'll* eat it now.

today, i had a handful of (lushious) dried cranberries in the morning. a few

hours later i had a banana and small piece of jerky. oh, i probably had a

spoon or two of kefir too, when i was making a new batch. no energy problems

today! maybe i should just resolve to eat *something* in the morning rather

than totally fasting.

From a philisophical viewpoint, he likes the idea of raw

food during the day. Because the Romans did. But he

does cook his meat! So I think stock should be fine. I

do eat broth at lunch, if I'm cooking it for the crew. Broth

seems to stabilize cortisol really, really fast, esp. if it

has salt and garlic. I pour it over some kimchi in

a bowl and make " kimchi soup " .

----->hey, that sounds great! i'll try that. and yeh, if ori's eating cooked

chicken, i should be able to drink cooked broth, i'd think.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

> " Weak and fuzzy brain " for me usually means high cortisol. Which

>I often get if I eat something I'm allergic to (see if it happens more

>after one food than another).

>

>--->but i only get that way when i haven't eaten enough....on a totally

>empty stomach.

I USED to get that way, but now a totally empty stomach is ok. However,

I have plenty of fat and glycogen stores! I'm just glad I can now use

them. If your body is under stress, it produces cortisol

Starving is stress. Skipping a meal isn't stress IF you body is used

to it and has stored food. IMO.

---->i had thought of jerky, but don't like the first batch i made. however

>it was sitting on my counter in a ball jar, and i decided to try it again

>this morning, and it was OK. i like the idea of jerky, i'll just have to

>experiment til i get a flavor i like. this batch was destined for the dogs,

>but i think *i'll* eat it now.

>

>today, i had a handful of (lushious) dried cranberries in the morning. a few

>hours later i had a banana and small piece of jerky. oh, i probably had a

>spoon or two of kefir too, when i was making a new batch. no energy problems

>today! maybe i should just resolve to eat *something* in the morning rather

>than totally fasting.

I DO eat if I feel hungry. I try to keep it to a little bit, because I want my

body to adapt. Ori recommends coffee too (it realeases fat stores). But it

doesn't seem to take much to fill me up, one banana or so.

As for jerky ... have you tried my jerky PDF? I found that until I soaked

the jerky in kefir, it was tasteless. And often tough. If you don't have

kefir you could use yogurt or kimchi juice ... but a 3 day soak adds

the NICEST flavor!!!! The batches from my first 10 YEARS went to

the animals ...

> ----->hey, that sounds great! i'll try that. and yeh, if ori's eating cooked

>chicken, i should be able to drink cooked broth, i'd think.

He said in the interview, basically anything but starches. Since you

don't eat starches much, this should be no problem ... I like the no-cooking

philosophy a LOT, but since you eat raw a lot anyway THAT isn't a problem

either ;-) I love broth ... I've been making a bunch of it and keeping it in

the fridge. Easy to heat up, toss it over kimchi, like I said. The Vietnamese

do this and pour it over noodles, greens (mint, kale, etc.) and a little meat

for " instant soup " which makes a great first course for dinner too.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:52:28 -0400

" Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> " Weak and fuzzy brain " for me usually means high cortisol. Which

>I often get if I eat something I'm allergic to (see if it happens more

>after one food than another).

>

>--->but i only get that way when i haven't eaten enough....on a totally

>empty stomach.

>

Unless I miss my guess, water fasting (or eating nothing) can produce

high cortisol, at least intially, and the best way to counteract that is

with some fluids and light exercise. Usually works like a charm.

It Really Was The People's Car

http://tinyurl.com/mwbv

[Guest guest]

> " Weak and fuzzy brain " for me usually means high cortisol. Which

>I often get if I eat something I'm allergic to (see if it happens more

>after one food than another).

>

>--->but i only get that way when i haven't eaten enough....on a totally

>empty stomach.

>>>>I USED to get that way, but now a totally empty stomach is ok. However,

I have plenty of fat and glycogen stores! I'm just glad I can now use

them. If your body is under stress, it produces cortisol

Starving is stress. Skipping a meal isn't stress IF you body is used

to it and has stored food. IMO.

------>i've not had the weakness/fuzziness the past several days since i've

had a few things to eat when i do get hungry. yesterday i had some beef

broth, a banana, a few small pieces of jerky and handful of cranberries

throughout the day until the evening and that was fine. on days that i work

out i am having a small recovery shake and that seems to keep me satiated

for a long time. this is usually around 4 pm.

i also seem to be able to eat more at night now and not feel overly stuffed,

so maybe my body is adjusting. i did lose a few lbs. since starting this

last week, but that may have been in the initial days when i wasn't able to

eat enough at night. i don't have a scale at home, but there's one at the

gym. i'll keep an eye on my weight to see if i'm still losing or if the

loss plateaus.

---->i had thought of jerky, but don't like the first batch i made. however

>it was sitting on my counter in a ball jar, and i decided to try it again

>this morning, and it was OK. i like the idea of jerky, i'll just have to

>experiment til i get a flavor i like. this batch was destined for the dogs,

>but i think *i'll* eat it now.

>

>today, i had a handful of (lushious) dried cranberries in the morning. a

few

>hours later i had a banana and small piece of jerky. oh, i probably had a

>spoon or two of kefir too, when i was making a new batch. no energy

problems

>today! maybe i should just resolve to eat *something* in the morning rather

>than totally fasting.

>>>>I DO eat if I feel hungry. I try to keep it to a little bit, because I

want my

body to adapt. Ori recommends coffee too (it realeases fat stores). But it

doesn't seem to take much to fill me up, one banana or so.

------>coffee releases fat stores? really? is it the *caffeine* or some

other component of coffee?

>>>As for jerky ... have you tried my jerky PDF?

----->yes, i used it as a guide. thanks again for providing it. :-)

>>>>>I found that until I soaked

the jerky in kefir, it was tasteless. And often tough. If you don't have

kefir you could use yogurt or kimchi juice ... but a 3 day soak adds

the NICEST flavor!!!! The batches from my first 10 YEARS went to

the animals ...

---->LOL! they must be disappointed now that you've figured out a way to

make it tastey to *humans*.

well, i did soak mine in kefir for a day or two, i believe. BUT, i think i

only used sea salt for flavoring, but not enough. so it came out tasting

like sour meat with little other flavor. the consistency is good, but i also

used a low quality meat - minute steak - that came in paper-thin slices.

next time, i'd like to get a better quality cut and slice it myself. and

then use more seasoning. maybe i will try something like turmeric, cumin,

ground cardamom and cayenne. that should give it a nice flavor.

> ----->hey, that sounds great! i'll try that. and yeh, if ori's eating

cooked

>chicken, i should be able to drink cooked broth, i'd think.

>>>He said in the interview, basically anything but starches.

----->so as not to raise insulin levels right? wouldn't a big ripe banana do

that? or other sweet fruit? or not?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/03 9:02:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ----->so as not to raise insulin levels right? wouldn't a big ripe banana

> do

> that? or other sweet fruit? or not?

Oh, you just asked the question I was going to ask part way through your

post. Don't you folks think eating *bananas* defeats the whole purpose of not

eating starch? An *unripe* banana to my understanding has starch anyway, which

means bananas must have some non-fructose sugar, and that much fructose I'd

expect to reak havoc with insulin anyway, certainly as much as bread or potato.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/03 10:36:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

jopollack2001@... writes:

> At what point in our evolutionary history did warriors

> drink coffee?

Several thousand years ago, but no one can pin a precise date on Ethiopian

coffee domestication.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/03 11:37:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Fructose doesn't seem to raise insulin levels, and it's ok with him

> (as long as it is raw). A lot of body builders eschew fruite because

> it gets stored as fat too readily, because it DOESN'T go through the

> usual insulin pathway. I'm not sure how this jibes with the low-carb

> approach ... if fruit turns directly into fat, it shouldn't raise

> glycogen/glucose levels either. But diabetics DO seem to need

> insulin to handle fruit? Anyway, I do eat fruit during the day

> and it doesn't seem to make me hungry afterward (whereas

> a cracker on an empty stomach leaves me STARVING in 3 hours).

Heidi,

This is simply not true. Fructose unquestionably raises insulin levels,

which is why, like you say, diabetics need insulin for fruit!

Fructose produces maybe 30% less insulin, but the idea that you can eat a

whole banana on an empty stomach and not produce significant insulin in response

to it isn't much more than wishful thinking.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/03 11:48:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Coffee is fairly recent, but a lot of hunter/gather type

> societies have some stimulant or another they use.

> Coca leaves come to mind. Teas of one sort

> or another seem to be universal, and some of those

> have stimulants.

Recent to whom? Maybe recent to Arabians, but Ethiopians were drinking

coffee a loooooong time ago. According to Diamond, the date is up for

grabs,

and no one's really sure whether they were domesticating plants before or

after the arrival of Southwest Asian plants. But in any case it was thousands

of

years ago.

Like you said, stimulants seem universal. Ethiopia's got the coffee, West

Africa's got kola nuts, Asia has green and black tea, Americas have coca,

tobacco, etc, all of which were used by traditional cultures.

One of the groups Price studied, and I think it was the Aborigines but don't

remember for sure, chewed on coca all day long to suppress appetite and

maintain energy while fasting and hiking etc. Whoever it was I believe it was

the

same folks who ate clay to prevent queasy stomachs. If it was the Austrailian

Aborigines, iirc they were paragons of health.

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

Ori recommends coffee too (it

> realeases fat stores). But it

> doesn't seem to take much to fill me up, one banana

> or so.

>

At what point in our evolutionary history did warriors

drink coffee?

It isn't working for n, who drinks quite a bit of

coffee but is STILL 100lbs overweight!

Jo

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>i also seem to be able to eat more at night now and not feel overly stuffed,

>so maybe my body is adjusting. i did lose a few lbs. since starting this

>last week, but that may have been in the initial days when i wasn't able to

>eat enough at night. i don't have a scale at home, but there's one at the

>gym. i'll keep an eye on my weight to see if i'm still losing or if the

>loss plateaus.

I appreciate your comments ... someday I'll be skinny then I'll

wonder how this works for skinny people. Well, skinny muscular

people.

My muscles seem bigger too ... part of that, I think is the exercise,

but I've also heard they " plump up " when they store glycogen. Since

you are training your body to store lots of glycogen for the next

day, that would make them bigger too. The glycogen is important:

your muscles use a lot of it for " quick response " energy (like swordfights

or lifting weights!) as well as using a little to help burn fat.

>------>coffee releases fat stores? really? is it the *caffeine* or some

>other component of coffee?

The caffeine. Some body builders take large amounts of caffeine

to help lose fat. Which works, I guess, esp. if you don't have the

ability to get fat out of fat cells easily (which the WD is supposed

to help train your body to do). Fat cells release lipids all the time,

but caffeine increases the process. If you then USE UP the fat,

then great, you lost weight. Otherwise they float around for

awhile and get re-stored as fat.

>---->LOL! they must be disappointed now that you've figured out a way to

>make it tastey to *humans*.

>well, i did soak mine in kefir for a day or two, i believe. BUT, i think i

>only used sea salt for flavoring, but not enough. so it came out tasting

>like sour meat with little other flavor. the consistency is good, but i also

>used a low quality meat - minute steak - that came in paper-thin slices.

>next time, i'd like to get a better quality cut and slice it myself. and

>then use more seasoning. maybe i will try something like turmeric, cumin,

>ground cardamom and cayenne. that should give it a nice flavor.

Oh yeah, you need spices! This last batch I put in a lot of cumin,

which was good. I talked to a lady who grew up in South Africa -- she

is a doctor now, and I was asking her how come the biltong didn't

give her food poisoning etc (they just hung it in the garage to dry).

She thought it might be the spices ... it was very spicy, she said, with

lots of cumin. Or the salt.

>----->so as not to raise insulin levels right? wouldn't a big ripe banana do

>that? or other sweet fruit? or not?

Fructose doesn't seem to raise insulin levels, and it's ok with him

(as long as it is raw). A lot of body builders eschew fruite because

it gets stored as fat too readily, because it DOESN'T go through the

usual insulin pathway. I'm not sure how this jibes with the low-carb

approach ... if fruit turns directly into fat, it shouldn't raise

glycogen/glucose levels either. But diabetics DO seem to need

insulin to handle fruit? Anyway, I do eat fruit during the day

and it doesn't seem to make me hungry afterward (whereas

a cracker on an empty stomach leaves me STARVING in 3 hours).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>At what point in our evolutionary history did warriors

>drink coffee?

Coffee is fairly recent, but a lot of hunter/gather type

societies have some stimulant or another they use.

Coca leaves come to mind. Teas of one sort

or another seem to be universal, and some of those

have stimulants.

>It isn't working for n, who drinks quite a bit of

>coffee but is STILL 100lbs overweight!

>

>Jo

I would encourage him to keep a food log and

see exactly how much he IS eating and tweak it.

A lot of people reach a plateau when the body

adjusts to the food. And my general motto in

life is: " when what you are doing isn't working,

try something else! " .

Low carb and other diets that don't count calories

(like the WD) still can't get around the laws of

thermodynamics. When a person weights 300 lbs,

it takes more energy to LIVE than it does when they

weight 200. Fat and protein are more filling than

carbs, but you can still live on them without

losing fat, and that seems to happen to a lot

of people.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

--- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

wrote: >

>> I would encourage him to keep a food log and

> see exactly how much he IS eating and tweak it.

> A lot of people reach a plateau when the body

> adjusts to the food. And my general motto in

> life is: " when what you are doing isn't working,

> try something else! " .

>

We are trying to increase carbs. I suspect his

problem is stress. While he doesn't feel stressed at

all, I suspect he is just used to living with it, as

he certainly has a number of symptoms as laid down by

Schwarzbein in TSP2. He is just eating a few carby

things each meal time. He can't be doing with

counting every gram that passes his liips - it seems

he would rahter be fat than become obsessed with

dieting. And i can appreciate that, as i have become

obsessed and there are times I am miserable becasuse

of it.

Jo

> Low carb and other diets that don't count calories

> (like the WD) still can't get around the laws of

> thermodynamics. When a person weights 300 lbs,

> it takes more energy to LIVE than it does when they

> weight 200. Fat and protein are more filling than

> carbs, but you can still live on them without

> losing fat, and that seems to happen to a lot

> of people.

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