On the topic of definitive schools...

[Guest guest]

To me, Napoleon telling phine not to bathe touches on an idea

which is central to my need to be involved with perfumery. I think

those of us who can relate to Napoleon's sentiment, who can easily

relate to the macabre story in the book Perfume, fall into one camp

as far as perfumes go. A member of this camp, I care most about

creating a deeply sensual, even an erotogenic, aromatic experience.

The other camp cares most importantly about illustrating the wonders

of the natural world. I care about doing so only in so far as it

serves the sensual, the sexual, directive. I don't mean to create

divisions where there aren't any, it's just that this seems to be the

status quo, with some of us afraid to admit what we like most, and

others with strict views about the existence of " good " smells and

" bad " smells. It strikes me that the same forces which have served to

denigrate smell in relation to other human senses also serve up this

good smell/bad smell dichotomy, and to what avail? I grew up in

Manhattan; my favorite smell growing up was the smell of the subways

coming up through the gratings on the street. Admittedly it's a

pretty rank smell but I truly LOVE it. It's highly sensual, and it's

definitely not of the natural world. Come to think of it I may be in

my own little camp. I would say that this one foul but complex scent

is one of the main reasons I intend to be an aromatic artist. More so

than the orange blossoms I loved as a boy. More so than osmanthus or

rose or jasmine. Thoughts?

[Guest guest]

> To me, Napoleon telling phine not to bathe touches on an idea

> which is central to my need to be involved with perfumery.

When I read " the history of the Kings of France " if I remember well,

king Henry IV (or at least one of the Henry's) forbid his wives to

take a bath several days before his arrival and even encourage them

to eat garlic (or onions) :-)

As for liking the smell of the subway - maybe it is because you

relate it to a specially good memory from you life when you were a

boy.

From a business point of view, imagine if we could put in bottles

the smell/scents/odors of each individual's good memories. We would

call them " First Kiss " or " First Child " or " Biggest Promotion " etc...

Bella

from Tel Aviv

[Guest guest]

Ah, but then there is a clear connection to a time in your life that is

pleasant. I think we have room those gray area's here. If a scent reminds of a

time, of a particular event or place you lived that is special, then of course

it would also function in the aroma therapy genre.

My kids would go to the dump with my Dad and come back with a hoarde of flies

but they had such a great time with 'Papa' that the smell , and it was strong,

draws them back to 'you remember that time when we all went with Papa to the

dump and all the good stuff we saw that people just threw away?' and that led to

ice cream afterwards etc.....so for some its like the tv character 'Monk's ocd

problem when for others its a memory.

Bad odors have great memories. I left fishing shrimp in the car trying to hide

it so no body would catch the fish and then kill them LOL.....any time I've had

that scent I remember that very well! (or it might have been, 'hey, how come we

have to eat beans every day and these fish get to eat shrimp!)

And vice versa. If I smell the slightest whisp of cat urine.....I'm outta there

because I grew up in a not so clean house.......by the same measure my kids

recall that then as a time when they went to see grammie and her inside

farm.......(don't ask). I did have to quit letting them go for more than a day

or two and tho they dont like the scent, they have some magical memories because

of it. For them its 'remember when?' and for me it was 'omg, I will never own a

cat when I grow up'.......made for some interesting compromises =)

evie

[Guest guest]

Adam Gottschalk wrote:

> To me, Napoleon telling phine not to bathe touches on an idea

> which is central to my need to be involved with perfumery.

" Je Reviens " , the perfume made to celebrate that quote, was given to me

on graduation from high school. I was a hippie at the time, so perhaps

the unwashed part held true!

> A member of this camp, I care most about

> creating a deeply sensual, even an erotogenic, aromatic experience.

> The other camp cares most importantly about illustrating the wonders

> of the natural world. I care about doing so only in so far as it

> serves the sensual, the sexual, directive. I don't mean to create

> divisions where there aren't any, it's just that this seems to be the

> status quo, with some of us afraid to admit what we like most, and

> others with strict views about the existence of " good " smells and

> " bad " smells. It strikes me that the same forces which have served to

> denigrate smell in relation to other human senses also serve up this

> good smell/bad smell dichotomy, and to what avail?

Here ya go, some quotes I'm passing on to whomever takes up the Files

request (my document of perfume quotes is 23 pages long!)

" Perfume is the medium by which the lady magically usurps the sexual

powers of the blossom. " Jitterbug Perfume

" Perfume, that conqueror of the most subtle of our senses,

that informer of our unspoken desires, perfume which from out of the

unreliable depths of human memory uncovers the found of tears, the secret of

pleasure. " Colette

Adam, you're a writer - perhaps it's time for you to create some quotes

that reflect your views on the link between perfume and sensuality.

--

Anya

Anya's Garden http://AnyasGarden.com - perfumes, aromatics, classes,

consultation

Natural Perfumers Guild + blog with daily updates

1500+ member Natural Perfumery group -

/

[Guest guest]

On Aug 10, 2008, at 1:34 PM, Selkie wrote:

> Ah, but then there is a clear connection to a time in your life

> that is pleasant. I think we have room those gray area's here. If a

> scent reminds of a time, of a particular event or place you lived

> that is special, then of course it would also function in the aroma

> therapy genre.

That's the thing: I loved that smell all my life, through every stage

of my life, from being a toddler led around by the hand to being

adolescent led around by substance abuse, through some pretty rocky

stages. Always, when I walked out onto the street, there was that

smell. At the worst of times, there was that smell. At the best of

times, there was that smell. I live in Portland now; haven't been in

New York in ages. All I can think is that that smell to me is the

essence of New York and I love New York, thus I love the smell. Yes,

I have thought of easy ways to capture that smell if I ever get a

mind to....

[Guest guest]

>

> To me, Napoleon telling phine not to bathe touches on an idea

> which is central to my need to be involved with perfumery. I think

> those of us who can relate to Napoleon's sentiment, who can easily

> relate to the macabre story in the book Perfume, fall into one camp

> as far as perfumes go.

I think this is why a lot of us are here. When I read Perfume all

those years ago, when I read Jitterbug Perfume all those years ago, I

just knew that I had to go there - I was fascinated in the truest

sense of the word. I realized that the " odd " smells are the ones that

are really the power-wielders in the scent world. And I was so

intrigued when reading the letters between Napoleon and phine.

And to have it become so clear to me that the smells that hold one's

interest aren't always the " nice clean " ones. And that you need to

have some of those dirty scents, maybe even a lot of them, in a

perfume to make it really sing, and to make it really talk to the

psyche. But then duh -- look at the flowers with indole and other

stinky stuff in them. I'm always enthralled by the flowers of my

valerian. I stick my nose right into them and smell their

stinky-fuggy/sweet perfume and love it.

I guess the reason that I'm more drawn to the dark, sultry scents,

rather than the light and airy ones is the same reason why I'm drawn

to deep, voluptuous silk velvets and natural fabrics in rich dark

colors. To me, for me, that's where real life is touched upon most

closely. In the deep things - deep places, deep emotions, deep scents.

Andrine

[Guest guest]

On 11 Aug 2008, at 01:29, Anya wrote:

> Adam Gottschalk wrote:

>> To me, Napoleon telling phine not to bathe touches on an idea

>> which is central to my need to be involved with perfumery.

Hi folk, i have been following this thread, reading what people write

in their attempt to speak about inspiration of scent to natural

perfumiers, artisans:

Its marvelous that i can detect even a shared inspiration coming from

the scents, yet feel reasonings and preferences given may need a

little bit of a challenge. SO here goes.

The best thing might be to reply with quotes,but instead i'll

generalise off the top of my head, and to begin with here are

recurring themes:

*Natural body scent has been mentioned often with wonder and

admiration, and is hinted at in the opening message.

*Mention of bad smells vs good smells, and wether they exist, other

than socially conditioned responses.*

*Merely recreating scents of flowers and gardens is not (necessarily)

the overall aim.

*Both re-creation, and complimenting natural body scents with a

perfume is mentioned.

My challenges don't represent my own views, which aren't set in

stone, because i find the sense is situated firmly at once in both

the physically mundane and the mysterious worlds. However, just to

contribute to the group, of which i am growing in fondness as I get

to know you through the posts, and sharpen up our minds and senses

as a group...

SO natural body scents.. we marvel at these, and find them powerfully

attractive or compelling anyway. We can agree, and it is worth noting

our awareness, especially as a perfumier.

A stark difference exists for us between flowers and body scents

(musks?). Our perfumes in containing musks maybe are complimenting

the body odour in some way, and in depth.

BUt in no way can we emulate the bodily scent. DO wish to, really?

We may take musk from animal scent glands, but other than those

glands, I would say that the body of plant/flower/seed/root and

animal/human are quite different, and one lends itself to extracting

scent and one doesn't. The plant life is a different order of

simbiotic relationship, with a different kind of skin.

This skin which and serves it in a different way to animals, with

scent-arousing particles/waves stored in cells and in seeds.

Why plant scents should be so compelling, and so informative to

humans is one beautiful mystery, confounding for materialistic

evolutionary theory.

Human skin doesn't have 'stores' of scent particles, and scent is

produced more as a result of lifestyle (as opposed to terrestrial

environment), and is modified even according to mood and temperament.

It is more an arising scent from a result of sudden and habitual

metabolic patterns, like a vapour-print of the metabolism, psyche and

lifestyle.

ANimal musk glands and their secretions have a particular glorious

purpose, and can be added to human scent, especially useful as an an

accompaniment to lip-colorant, etc.. for those who lack blood in

their lips.

We needn't seek to recreate human scent and cant even come close. THe

way by approach of a hunt for single molecules, I say, would fail,

and could only be a passing fad, where we allow our nose to become

'temporarily re-educated' , before relaxing into more natural

appreciation, a more 'true' and a wider appreciation.

Why would we want to recreate a unique body odour and market it?

Bad smells do exist, i n and of themselves, even outside of social

conditioning. Bad smells are 'dirty'. They directly harm the body.

Potency and good/bad smell is relevant here as poison too. Basically,

bad smells come through greed and carelessness, and harm us, meaning

they are an agent of death. Fresh air has smell, and it's not bad.

Unfresh air is, maybe slightly bad.

For example, like kitchens designed for a showrooms and sales,

produce 'dirt' and bad smells. Because the fine decaying matter of a

kitchen should go to earth, and have oxygen. The best kitchens are on

bare earth, or even quarry tiles. You can't seal with polyester/

acrylic, unless it's semi-hardening, it traps decay and germs of

decay. Too many germs of decay go with worse smell.

How do we sense people's motives, by body language, no? Perhaps we

can sense the motive by smell if we learn to discern it. People can

smell bad. Lifeless and and energetic people, their lips fade or are

full-blooded, and their scent, does it not fade?

WHy do chemical synths smell bad, then? Sick in your nose and

dissolve cells. Cloying in your trachea, and nauseating. Because they

are bad smells ( frequently). That's what bad means , it hurts, its

poison, its death.

People even choose and avoid activities and career because of smells

in the workplace, and practices. Some are barely conscious of their

choices, other s aren't, and it's not difficult to uncover these

decisions.

AS to flowers and musks, and body odour. Why should a body be adorned

with a flower, which may fade to reveal, and not hide, the clean,

lively musky body odour? Perhaps it's the contrast, and so short-life

perfumes would be preferred. We don't want to replace it, unless the

body odour is bad.

Why use musks in the perfume? Either to produce an overall pleasing

or deep perfume; or to hide and make up for odour odor, to deceive,

to invite necromancy. The last , is as territory i'll leave to your

imagination.

A musky and deeply curious perfume, with molecules that fly may be a

decent aim, where the scent fades to reveal...as opposed to

superficial 'single molecule notes', even nasty and, cloying scents.

The good perfume arouses our smell, even speaks of the worlds'

goodness, beauty, and places. And so, brings us to a beautiful world

vision, where the body odor satisfies that deep sense.

I which case why not just have incense, flowers by the window, and

herbs, a nice smelling room and your body odour? Perfume is a mask

for death.

(Just use the perfume sparingly, a trace!)

Plumridge

[Guest guest]

<Bad smells do exist, i n and of themselves, even outside of social

conditioning. Bad smells are 'dirty'. They directly harm the body.

Potency and good/bad smell is relevant here as poison too. Basically,

bad smells come through greed and carelessness, and harm us, meaning

they are an agent of death. Fresh air has smell, and it's not bad.

Unfresh air is, maybe slightly bad.>

What a wonderful post...very thoughtful and containing much to think

about. love and meditation are behind such words.

thank you for sharing .

I have one thought to add....

the smell of our lover is good.

the body odor of strangers can be offensive.

natural selection at work.

Katlyn

Katlyn Breene

Mermade Magickal Arts (since 1984)

katmermade@...

http://www.mermadearts.com/

[Guest guest]

     

> Basically,

> bad smells come through greed and carelessness, and harm

> us,

>

>

>

.

>

> I have one thought to add....

>

> the smell of our lover is good.

> the body odor of strangers can be offensive.

> natural selection at work.

>

>

>

> Katlyn

>

>

> It is bad odour or an enzyme of bad odour our telepathic antennae pick up when

for example, we meet someone who could have bad intent.... an alarm bell rings

and our protective veils usually comes into play to not go any further.

It is unsaid unspoken but clear and our feelings go into overdrive

Janita

JHNP

>

> Katlyn Breene

> Mermade Magickal Arts (since 1984)

> katmermade@...

> http://www.mermadearts.com/

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

     

> Basically,

> bad smells come through greed and carelessness, and harm

> us,

>

>

>

.

>

> I have one thought to add....

>

> the smell of our lover is good.

> the body odor of strangers can be offensive.

> natural selection at work.

>

>

>

> Katlyn

>

>

> It is bad odour or an enzyme of bad odour our telepathic antennae pick up when

for example, we meet someone who could have bad intent.... an alarm bell rings

and our protective veils usually comes into play to not go any further.

It is unsaid unspoken but clear and our feelings go into overdrive

Janita

JHNP

>

> Katlyn Breene

> Mermade Magickal Arts (since 1984)

> katmermade@...

> http://www.mermadearts.com/

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The smell of ones children is also highly identifiable. I have each of my

daughters baby blankets and it still smells like they did when little. I keep

them in an acid free bag and once in a while I'll pick those up and just

inhale.......

But I know if I were blind folded in a room of babies (at that time) I would

have picked mine out by scent and in fact, several woman have caught the fact

that the baby brought to their room in the hospital didn't seem to be their

baby.......and they were right!

e

[Guest guest]

The smell of ones children is also highly identifiable. I have each of my

daughters baby blankets and it still smells like they did when little. I keep

them in an acid free bag and once in a while I'll pick those up and just

inhale.......

But I know if I were blind folded in a room of babies (at that time) I would

have picked mine out by scent and in fact, several woman have caught the fact

that the baby brought to their room in the hospital didn't seem to be their

baby.......and they were right!

e

[Guest guest]

The smell of ones children is also highly identifiable. I have each of my

daughters baby blankets and it still smells like they did when little. I keep

them in an acid free bag and once in a while I'll pick those up and just

inhale.......

But I know if I were blind folded in a room of babies (at that time) I would

have picked mine out by scent and in fact, several woman have caught the fact

that the baby brought to their room in the hospital didn't seem to be their

baby.......and they were right!

e

[Guest guest]

On Aug 12, 2008, at 8:38 AM, Selkie wrote:

> But I know if I were blind folded in a room of babies (at that

> time) I would have picked mine out by scent and in fact, several

> woman have caught the fact that the baby brought to their room in

> the hospital didn't seem to be their baby.......and they were right!

Beekeepers can smell their own hive amid a sea of hives. It's also a

studied fact that anyone can, with remarkable accuracy whether they

think they can or not, and regardless of age, say whether a given

piece of clothing was last worn by a man or a woman.

[Guest guest]

On Aug 12, 2008, at 8:38 AM, Selkie wrote:

> But I know if I were blind folded in a room of babies (at that

> time) I would have picked mine out by scent and in fact, several

> woman have caught the fact that the baby brought to their room in

> the hospital didn't seem to be their baby.......and they were right!

Beekeepers can smell their own hive amid a sea of hives. It's also a

studied fact that anyone can, with remarkable accuracy whether they

think they can or not, and regardless of age, say whether a given

piece of clothing was last worn by a man or a woman.

[Guest guest]

Never heard of that and how cool!

e

[Guest guest]

Never heard of that and how cool!

e

[Guest guest]

On 12 Aug 2008, at 01:33, Breene Katlyn wrote:

> I have one thought to add....

>

> the smell of our lover is good.

> the body odor of strangers can be offensive.

> natural selection at work.

Aye, which makes me think...taking in the scent of the lover,

choosing the lover in the making of bonds, it's a journey into scent;

at the moment of the pact, the scent begins to reveal itself by

captivating us. No other could do.

Plum

[Guest guest]

> > I have one thought to add....

> >

> > the smell of our lover is good.

> > the body odor of strangers can be offensive.

> > natural selection at work.

>

> Aye, which makes me think...taking in the scent of the lover,

> choosing the lover in the making of bonds, it's a journey into scent;

> at the moment of the pact, the scent begins to reveal itself by

> captivating us. No other could do.

> Plum

An interesting artical published today on this subject.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article4516566.ece

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

> > I have one thought to add....

> >

> > the smell of our lover is good.

> > the body odor of strangers can be offensive.

> > natural selection at work.

>

> Aye, which makes me think...taking in the scent of the lover,

> choosing the lover in the making of bonds, it's a journey into scent;

> at the moment of the pact, the scent begins to reveal itself by

> captivating us. No other could do.

> Plum

An interesting artical published today on this subject.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article4516566.ece

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

On Aug 14, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Decker/ wrote:

> An interesting artical published today on this subject.

> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/

> article4516566.ece

> Blessings,

>

Fascinating. And worrisome.

[Guest guest]

On Aug 14, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Decker/ wrote:

> An interesting artical published today on this subject.

> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/

> article4516566.ece

> Blessings,

>

Fascinating. And worrisome.

[Guest guest]

> On Aug 14, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Decker/ wrote:

>

> > An interesting artical published today on this subject.

> > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/

> > article4516566.ece

> > Blessings,

> >

>

>> Fascinating. And worrisome.

Tragic, the idea that hundreds of thousands of relationships have

bombed over the decades, possibly due in part to the fact that the

pill screwed up the hormones so that women chose the wrong partners...

That really sounds devastating. And I know there are a lot of us who

have very likely been affected by that.

Hmmm... But on a lighter note, I can see the next generation of

dating services... " Here you go, Ms. X. Smell these 12 t-shirts and

tell us which one smells the best to you. Right, then. Based on your

selection, Ms. X., here's your new beau... "

Or, like when you're at the eye doctor, but with smell instead of

sight, " Which one smells best to you, A or B? A or B? Okay, next, A

or C? Still A? Alrighty then, here's your man. " Weird science and

bad humor...

Cheers!

Andrine

[Guest guest]

> On Aug 14, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Decker/ wrote:

>

> > An interesting artical published today on this subject.

> > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/

> > article4516566.ece

> > Blessings,

> >

>

>> Fascinating. And worrisome.

Tragic, the idea that hundreds of thousands of relationships have

bombed over the decades, possibly due in part to the fact that the

pill screwed up the hormones so that women chose the wrong partners...

That really sounds devastating. And I know there are a lot of us who

have very likely been affected by that.

Hmmm... But on a lighter note, I can see the next generation of

dating services... " Here you go, Ms. X. Smell these 12 t-shirts and

tell us which one smells the best to you. Right, then. Based on your

selection, Ms. X., here's your new beau... "

Or, like when you're at the eye doctor, but with smell instead of

sight, " Which one smells best to you, A or B? A or B? Okay, next, A

or C? Still A? Alrighty then, here's your man. " Weird science and

bad humor...

Cheers!

Andrine

[Guest guest]

On 14 Aug 2008, at 21:58, Decker/ wrote:

> An interesting artical published today on this subject.

> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/

> article4516566.ece

> Blessings,

>

interesting, thank you, yes. If it's true then, we could bung in loud

cloying perfumes into the wooing crisis.

Plumridge