Guest guest Posted October 5, 2003 Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 You must have a very thrifty metabolism then. I have a friend who eats nothing but white pasta and pizza all day long (and entire pizzas at that) and maintains a six-pack year round. - > > of > course the range of calorie intakes, CR or > > otherwise, depends on > > voluntary activity, muscle mass, and size. there's > > a huge range of > > CR intakes, and there are plenty of people well > > beyond 2000 calories, > > people who exercise a lot and such. at 5'9 " , 132 > > lbs, i take in > > about 1700/day. > > > > WoW!! , that sounds like soooo little to me! > I am 5ft2, female, and 120lbs. I don't work out. I > consume around 2000 cals per day. I carry a little > extra fat around my middle which is largely due to > bloating caused by endometriosis/ovarian cyst. I > would starve on 1700 cals per day > > Jo > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE > Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2003 Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 --- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote: > They found that even in > salmon, the females would often choose the > " nice " not so aggressive males (who incidentally > don't bite and play so rough, but who stay on > the sidelines and can't compete with the aggressive > ones). I recall reading something about this in New Scientist. IIRC, the older salmon females chose hte less agressive males, and the younger females chose the more agressive. Could have something to do with learning that the agressive ones hurt them, so the second time around, they went for the more passive ones! Jo ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2003 Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 >I recall reading something about this in New >Scientist. IIRC, the older salmon females chose hte >less agressive males, and the younger females chose >the more agressive. Could have something to do with >learning that the agressive ones hurt them, so the >second time around, they went for the more passive >ones! > >Jo Kinda like a second marriage ;--) Glad there other NS readers here ... I love that mag ... -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2003 Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 > I recall reading something about this in New > Scientist. IIRC, the older salmon females chose hte > less agressive males, and the younger females chose > the more agressive. Could have something to do with > learning that the agressive ones hurt them, so the > second time around, they went for the more passive > ones! Waitaminnit. I live in salmon country, and if memory and tradition suffice, salmon spawn and then die. There is no " second time around. " Am I nuts? (Don't answer that.) Lynn S. ----- Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/ Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/ People-Powered ! http://www.deanforamerica.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2003 Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 Depends on the breed, I think. -- Heidi >Waitaminnit. I live in salmon country, and if memory and tradition >suffice, salmon spawn and then die. There is no " second time around. " >Am I nuts? (Don't answer that.) > >Lynn S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2003 Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 On Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 02:16 PM, Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote: > > Depends on the breed, I think. > > -- Heidi > >> Waitaminnit. I live in salmon country, and if memory and tradition >> suffice, salmon spawn and then die. There is no " second time around. " >> Am I nuts? (Don't answer that.) You are correct. From http://www.thecontentwell.com/Fish_Game/Trout/Trout_Spawning.html: " Salmonid spawning habits vary greatly among species. Most spawn in fall, but some like the rainbow trout, spawn in spring. Trout, char, grayling and Atlantic salmon live to spawn several times, but Pacific salmon spawn only once, then die. " I can be forgiven, perhaps, because I live in the Pacific NW, where the salmon most certainly die in huge thrashing numbers, or did, at the end of spawn. Lynn S. ----- Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/ Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/ People-Powered ! http://www.deanforamerica.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 > > I recall reading something about this in New > > Scientist. IIRC, the older salmon females chose hte > > less agressive males, and the younger females chose > > the more agressive. Could have something to do with > > learning that the agressive ones hurt them, so the > > second time around, they went for the more passive > > ones! > > Waitaminnit. I live in salmon country, and if memory and tradition > suffice, salmon spawn and then die. There is no " second time around. " > Am I nuts? (Don't answer that.) Perhaps it's something to do with hormones, older fish having more testosterone and searching for the balance. Joanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 > What I meant was that I can't eat butter or meat or fish without > something else. Ie: bread in the case of butter. Only cause you haven't tried 100% grass-fed raw butter. If you ever get a chance, try eating some off the spoon. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 > > > This was my first impression of what Jo wrote too. > > Carbs do have minimal > > satiety value, according to one study I read, so it > > makes little sense that carbs > > would reduce satiety. The gluten thing does make > > sense though. > > I have tested this on myself with fruit. I can eat > endless amount of berries and cream. Few berries, lots > of cream, and I don't seem to get full. But if I > drink the cream straight from the pot, I get full when > I've had enough. > Just my own experience.v Jo, I'm not going to bother testing myself because the potential for placebo effect, but I guess this must only be true for some people versus others. I can drink cream by the glass, and it's filling after a certain point, but no more filling than whipped cream and berries for me (of course taking into consideration the air in the whipped cream). Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 In a message dated 10/6/03 5:47:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paultheo2000@... writes: > Speaking of raw dairy products... > > I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to > regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. I never buy raw cheese in a store except parmesano reggiano... but the cost is outrageous, and I can save more than half the price by buying a wheel from a farmer. How a cheese tastes and its texture is primarily a function of the individual cheese and the skill of the cheese-maker. By the by, raw cheese *does* taste better, especially to people who eat lots of cheese, and high quality cheese. But the taste is secondary to the point that raw cheese is highly beneficial to health, whereas pasteurized cheese is not. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 In a message dated 10/6/03 6:03:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, christiekeith@... writes: > There are also different methods of pasteurization used in cheesemaking, > and that will have an impact on the taste and texture too. It's complex Oh yeah, and not to mention most or many commercial raw cheeses aren't raw at all, but are just pasteurized at a temp lower than " pastuerization " temperature. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 Speaking of raw dairy products... I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. - > > What I meant was that I can't eat butter or meat or fish without > > something else. Ie: bread in the case of butter. > > Only cause you haven't tried 100% grass-fed raw butter. If you ever > get a chance, try eating some off the spoon. > > Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 >> I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. << This isn't something that can be evaluated by tasting one cheese or one kind of cheese. What I mean by that is that there is no way to say raw milk or raw cream cheeses are " coarser " - just that one cheese is coarser than another cheese. I seek out raw cheeses on principle, but as my " cheese palate " gets more and more developed, I'm beginning to be able to tell the difference between pasteurized and raw milk cheeses, sometimes. BUT.... A great pasteurized cheese will still taste better than a mediocre raw milk cheese. You have to compare apples to apples. There are also different methods of pasteurization used in cheesemaking, and that will have an impact on the taste and texture too. It's complex. Taste is not the only consideration (IMO nutrition is also important), but it's no accident that all the world's great cheeses are made from raw milk and/or cream, and that all the great cheese experts in the world unanimously agree on this. Christie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 I guess I just have no real motivation to go out and spend nearly twice as much money just to say I eat raw cheese. In the case of plastic nut butters and the real thing... I can't imagine choosing the synthetic kind. But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed (have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is much healthier than the other. -Zulu > >> I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to > regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. << > > This isn't something that can be evaluated by tasting one cheese or one kind of cheese. What I mean by that is that there is no way to say raw milk or raw cream cheeses are " coarser " - just that one cheese is coarser than another cheese. I seek out raw cheeses on principle, but as my " cheese palate " gets more and more developed, I'm beginning to be able to tell the difference between pasteurized and raw milk cheeses, sometimes. BUT.... > > A great pasteurized cheese will still taste better than a mediocre raw milk cheese. You have to compare apples to apples. There are also different methods of pasteurization used in cheesemaking, and that will have an impact on the taste and texture too. It's complex. Taste is not the only consideration (IMO nutrition is also important), but it's no accident that all the world's great cheeses are made from raw milk and/or cream, and that all the great cheese experts in the world unanimously agree on this. > > Christie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 >> But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed (have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is much healthier than the other. << I love cheese, and have tried about 150 kinds in my life. But you know me, " it's a food of love thing. " <G> As to healthier and not-healthier, I do think that a really good, artisan-made, fresh cheese made from pastured raw milk and cream from healthy, well-cared for cows, goats, or sheep is much better for you than cheese made in a factory from pasteurized milk from agri-farmed cows. In fact, that belief appears to me to be the entire basis of this group, so I don't quite understand what you mean that you don't think one is healthier than the other. As I said, all the really great cheeses are made from raw milk, and all the artisan cheesemakers who are not constrained by health regulations make their cheeses from raw milk and cream. Christie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 > I guess I just have no real motivation to go out and spend nearly > twice as much money just to say I eat raw cheese. In the case of > plastic nut butters and the real thing... I can't imagine choosing the > synthetic kind. But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed > (have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is much > healthier than the other. > > -Zulu Just curious, but why do you sign some of your posts as " " , and others as " Zulu " ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 I guess I'm just looking to be convinced I'm new to the group and not I agree with many of it's principles, but not all...and so I investigate the rest - > >> But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed > (have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is much > healthier than the other. << > > I love cheese, and have tried about 150 kinds in my life. But you know me, " it's a food of love thing. " <G> > > As to healthier and not-healthier, I do think that a really good, artisan-made, fresh cheese made from pastured raw milk and cream from healthy, well-cared for cows, goats, or sheep is much better for you than cheese made in a factory from pasteurized milk from agri-farmed cows. In fact, that belief appears to me to be the entire basis of this group, so I don't quite understand what you mean that you don't think one is healthier than the other. As I said, all the really great cheeses are made from raw milk, and all the artisan cheesemakers who are not constrained by health regulations make their cheeses from raw milk and cream. > > Christie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2003 Report Share Posted October 6, 2003 Hi , My pseudonym on almost all other boards I frequent online is Zulu. On this board, and the calorie restriction board, which are somewhat more personal, I post with my real name, ie: . Sometimes I confuse the two; writing my nick at the bottom of posts can become automatic. - > > I guess I just have no real motivation to go out and spend nearly > > twice as much money just to say I eat raw cheese. In the case of > > plastic nut butters and the real thing... I can't imagine choosing > the > > synthetic kind. But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed > > (have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is > much > > healthier than the other. > > > > -Zulu > > Just curious, but why do you sign some of your posts as > " " , and others as " Zulu " ? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 , i have to say i totally agree with Christie's posts about cheese. i find dairy lustfully delicious in most of its forms, but i've had some raw cheeses that blew my mind into outer space they were so dramatically more delicious than other cheeses, raw or pasteurized. i've contacted NASA to help me get my mind back, but in the meantime i will continue to enjoy artisanal raw cheese. my advice is to buy some premium raw cheese online or from a specialized cheese shop. just don't eat it standing up near any sharp objects that might damage your internal organs when you faint with pleasure. mike parker > >> I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to > regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. << > > This isn't something that can be evaluated by tasting one cheese or one kind of cheese. What I mean by that is that there is no way to say raw milk or raw cream cheeses are " coarser " - just that one cheese is coarser than another cheese. I seek out raw cheeses on principle, but as my " cheese palate " gets more and more developed, I'm beginning to be able to tell the difference between pasteurized and raw milk cheeses, sometimes. BUT.... > > A great pasteurized cheese will still taste better than a mediocre raw milk cheese. You have to compare apples to apples. There are also different methods of pasteurization used in cheesemaking, and that will have an impact on the taste and texture too. It's complex. Taste is not the only consideration (IMO nutrition is also important), but it's no accident that all the world's great cheeses are made from raw milk and/or cream, and that all the great cheese experts in the world unanimously agree on this. > > Christie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 >> i've contacted NASA to help me get my mind back, but in the meantime i will continue to enjoy artisanal raw cheese. my advice is to buy some premium raw cheese online or from a specialized cheese shop. just don't eat it standing up near any sharp objects that might damage your internal organs when you faint with pleasure. << ROFL, oh so true... I actually got WEEPY when my local Whole Foods stopped carrying La Garottin because it's not actually aged 60 days as required by idiotic US import laws. I mean, I felt like I was going to cry and I was so embarrassed, but the woman at the cheese counter told me she had three other customers who DID cry when she told them. Don't mess with my cheese. <G> Christie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 Dear Zulu/, FYI.... there are 100s of raw cheese out there maybe not so many available in North America.. I guess when you're 17 yrs old you can make such pronouncements having tried only two ! Dedy Re: Guilt, satiety, calorie restriction... I guess I just have no real motivation to go out and spend nearly twice as much money just to say I eat raw cheese. In the case of plastic nut butters and the real thing... I can't imagine choosing the synthetic kind. But when it comes to cheese I'm really not impressed (have tried 2 kinds so far). In all honesty, I don't think one is much healthier than the other. -Zulu > >> I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to > regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. << > > This isn't something that can be evaluated by tasting one cheese or one kind of cheese. What I mean by that is that there is no way to say raw milk or raw cream cheeses are " coarser " - just that one cheese is coarser than another cheese. I seek out raw cheeses on principle, but as my " cheese palate " gets more and more developed, I'm beginning to be able to tell the difference between pasteurized and raw milk cheeses, sometimes. BUT.... > > A great pasteurized cheese will still taste better than a mediocre raw milk cheese. You have to compare apples to apples. There are also different methods of pasteurization used in cheesemaking, and that will have an impact on the taste and texture too. It's complex. Taste is not the only consideration (IMO nutrition is also important), but it's no accident that all the world's great cheeses are made from raw milk and/or cream, and that all the great cheese experts in the world unanimously agree on this. > > Christie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 I'm genuinely curious as to what exactly the differences are. It seems most of the arguments on this front are intuitively based. - > In a message dated 10/6/03 5:47:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > paultheo2000@y... writes: > > > Speaking of raw dairy products... > > > > I've had the chance to taste raw cheese and found it very similar to > > regular cheese except coarser. Oh, and more costy. > > I never buy raw cheese in a store except parmesano reggiano... but the cost > is outrageous, and I can save more than half the price by buying a wheel from a > farmer. > > How a cheese tastes and its texture is primarily a function of the individual > cheese and the skill of the cheese-maker. By the by, raw cheese *does* taste > better, especially to people who eat lots of cheese, and high quality cheese. > > But the taste is secondary to the point that raw cheese is highly beneficial > to health, whereas pasteurized cheese is not. > > Chris > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 >> I'm genuinely curious as to what exactly the differences are. It seems most of the arguments on this front are intuitively based. << Sheesh, ! Food is not a chemistry experiment! It's about what you LOVE, about what tastes good to you, about how what you eat makes you feel, about how flavors work together with other flavors. There are people all over the world who fuss and fret over every leaf of clover and blade of grass their livestock eat - who get up at 5 am to milk their goats - who sit in freezing cold barns ladeling cream into milk so they can make traditional artisanal cheeses using recipes handed down for hundreds of years from some little dairy in the south of France. Of COURSE it's intuitive. That's the whole point. It's art. And so is knowing the differences between the hundreds of kinds of cheeses there are in the world. They are nutty, mossy, grassy, gamey, pungent, creamy, fruity, woody..... the list is endless. It's like wine. As you eat great cheeses and carefully-made cheeses, gradually your palate will become educated and you'll realize that there is a world of difference among not just kinds of cheese, but the same kind of cheese made in different years. Cheese may never be " your thing, " that's fine. Everyone is different and has different passions. But it's no more realistic to say there are no substantive differences among cheeses than to say that a $4 bottle of Gallo is just the same as a bottle of Château Mouton Rothschild. I was going to suggest one of my favorite food books, " The Cheese Primer " by . And it's a good one. But maybe a better one is " A Year in Provence " by Mayle. The first is just the facts, ma'am, but the second is the intuitive part. Both together would be just about perfect. Christie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 In a message dated 10/7/03 8:06:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, paultheo2000@... writes: > I'm genuinely curious as to what exactly the differences are. It seems > most of the arguments on this front are intuitively based. Then read www.realmilk.com, then if you have questions or want to dispute something, please share. Pasteurization destroys lots of the nutrition, including the enzymes, including the phosphatase, which is needed to assimilate calcium. Pasturing is as important as raw, and most raw products are pastured, whereas most pasteurized products are not. Full-fat is also important, and raw milk is full-fat because it's just straight from the cow, whereas ordinary whole milk has cream skimmed from it if it's above the government standard for the fat content of " whole " milk. Pastuerized milk seems to be allergenic whereas raw milk seems not to be. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 Well said!! > >> I'm genuinely curious as to what exactly the differences are. It seems > most of the arguments on this front are intuitively based. << > > Sheesh, ! Food is not a chemistry experiment! It's about what you LOVE, about what tastes good to you, about how what you eat makes you feel, about how flavors work together with other flavors. > > There are people all over the world who fuss and fret over every leaf of clover and blade of grass their livestock eat - who get up at 5 am to milk their goats - who sit in freezing cold barns ladeling cream into milk so they can make traditional artisanal cheeses using recipes handed down for hundreds of years from some little dairy in the south of France. Of COURSE it's intuitive. That's the whole point. It's art. > > And so is knowing the differences between the hundreds of kinds of cheeses there are in the world. They are nutty, mossy, grassy, gamey, pungent, creamy, fruity, woody..... the list is endless. It's like wine. As you eat great cheeses and carefully-made cheeses, gradually your palate will become educated and you'll realize that there is a world of difference among not just kinds of cheese, but the same kind of cheese made in different years. > > Cheese may never be " your thing, " that's fine. Everyone is different and has different passions. But it's no more realistic to say there are no substantive differences among cheeses than to say that a $4 bottle of Gallo is just the same as a bottle of Château Mouton Rothschild. > > I was going to suggest one of my favorite food books, " The Cheese Primer " by . And it's a good one. But maybe a better one is " A Year in Provence " by Mayle. The first is just the facts, ma'am, but the second is the intuitive part. Both together would be just about perfect. > > Christie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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