Glute Ham Gastroc Raises

[Guest guest]

Dahms,

A little late, but I believe a few more comments are warranted in regard to

reverse hypers and the glute-ham-gastroc

raise. The glute-ham-gastroc raise works the hamstrings at both the hip joint

and the knee joint. This is what makes

this exercise so unique. However, I have seen many people do the

glute-ham-gastroc raise in different ways. Therefore,

it is important to use " correct " technique when doing this exercise in order to

involve both the hip and knee joint as

described in " Kinesiology of Exercise " (Yessis) on pages 54-57.

As brought out by several other members, there are many other exercises that can

be used to develop the hamstring via

hip extension and other exercises by knee flexion. However, no other exercise

except the glute-ham-gastroc raise works

both ends in sequence in one movement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yessis, Ph.D

President, Sports Training, Inc.

www.dryessis.com

(760) 480-0558

PO Box 460429

Escondido, CA 92046

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Guest guest]

Todd wrote,

>No need to take any more photos of this exercise! Here are two photos from

> Staley's site. The first is the double leg version, the second is the

>single leg version.

>

><http://www.myodynamics.com/exdex/lowerbod_art_ham6.html>

>

><http://www.myodynamics.com/exdex/lowerbod_art_ham7.html>

>

>The degree of gastroc recruitment that one can achieve is based on

>their skill of execution, but it's not as great as one may achieve

>with the solid surface of a bench. Also, as mentioned, unless perhaps

>someone has an idea of how to do so, it is difficult to achieve

>incremental overload.

I don't think this is a glute-ham-gastroc raise, is it?

[You are correct - this is not anything like a GHG raise and, as I commented

before, though this exercise certainly can be quite demanding, it is rather

trivial compared

with the true GHG exercise, especially if one executes it with added load or

under rapid conditions. Since that Ball exercise does not involve foot

plantarflexion,

it also neglects the emphasis on gastroc action. Mel Siff]

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

If anyone is interested, here is an video clip of Glute Ham Gastroc Raises.

Note, it requires QuickTime from apple.com to view.

http://www.bodyresults.com/Video/ghg-correct.mov

Doug Schurman, CSCS

www.BodyResults.com

Seattle, WA

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[Guest guest]

Hobman <khobman@s...> wrote:

> I don't think this is a glute-ham-gastroc raise, is it?

### No, not at all, but it is a movement other that the glute-ham-

gastroc raise that allows you to bot extend the hip and flex the knee

in the same movement like the glute-ham-gastroc raise.

> [Mel Siff: You are correct - this is not anything like a GHG raise and, as I

commented

> before, though this exercise certainly can be quite demanding, it is rather

trivial compared

> with the true GHG exercise, especially if one executes it with added load or

> under rapid conditions. Since that Ball exercise does not involve foot

plantarflexion,

> it also neglects the emphasis on gastroc action. ]

### I would disagree again, Dr. Siff - if you flex your knee until only

the ball of your foot is on the ball, it does involve significant

gastroc action, but as I stated earlier not nearly as much as the

glute-ham-gastroc raise.

[i have taken both EMG and myotensiometric measurements of the gastrocs

and hamstrings during accurately executed GHG and ball rolling hamstring

exercises

and the former produces far greater muscle tension and electrical activity than

the

latter exercise. Anyway, this simply stresses that the ball rolling exercise

certainly

acts as no substitute for the GHG exercise. Certainly, it may have a role in

some

applications, but the more versatile GHG exercise is far more suitable for a

serious athlete

who has limited time to include more than a few supplementary exercises into an

already

busy schedule. Mel Siff]

Todd

Hattiesburg, MS

[Guest guest]

Dr Siff

Can you put a picture on the group site to show ways in which the GHG machine

is built wrong in terms of biomechanical needs? How the back part

doesn't allow one to plantarflex like you talked about. I think if

anyone is interested in a home gym that they should know these things.

Dan Fichter

Rochester NY

---------

todd137 " <todd137@y...> wrote:

> patrick beith <beith2@y...> wrote:

>

> > Doesn't a ball curl exercise work the hamstring via

> > hip extension and knee flexion? (The exercise being;

> > lying in a supine position, the hips off the

> > ground in extension while performing a leg curl with

> > your heels on a physio-ball).

>

> Mel Siff:

>

> > [The best way to answer this question is to try using

> > a proper glute-ham-gastroc (GHG) machine with and without extra weights

> > behind your neck. That ball exercise is trivial by comparison

> > with any properly executed GHG exercise. ]

> ### you are correct - I forgot of this movement when I was

> replying to Dr. Yessis' post today. With respect to Dr. Siff, I do

> not feel that it's as all trivial by comparison. You can perform it

> with one or both legs and it's a fantastic movement in my opinion.

> The only problem with it that you do not have with a GHG bench is

> that gradual overload is difficult to apply therefore you must

> manipulate it's difficulty by way of speed of execution and pre-

> fatiguing the musculature.

>

> [some people have contacted me to say that they cannot exactly visualise

> what this Ball exercise looks like. If anyone has a photo of it, please send

> me a JPG version of it and I will place it in our " Files " section for all

> to study. Remember that the entire sole of the foot has to be placed on a

> fixed surface if one is to execute the powerful plantarflexion action which

> emphasizes the " gastroc " component of the GHG exercise. Mel Siff]

>

> Todd

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff:

<I have taken both EMG and myotensiometric measurements of the

gastrocs and hamstrings during accurately executed GHG and ball rolling

hamstring exercises and the former produces far greater muscle tension and

electrical

activity than the latter exercise. >

### I never asserted that it involved gastroc activity, and certainly

not more hamstring activity. You asserted that it did not involve

planter flexion. However, it clearly does when executed properly.

Because of the texture of the ball the recruitment of the gastroc (as

I had previously stated) will not be as great as it would be on a GHG

bench.

[Mel Siff: This is not what you wrote in message 18337: " I would disagree

again, Dr. Siff - if you

flex your knee until only the ball of your foot is on the ball, it does involve

significant

gastroc action, but as I stated earlier not nearly as much as the

glute-ham-gastroc raise. " ]

<Anyway, this simply stresses that the ball rolling exercise certainly

acts as no substitute for the GHG exercise. >

### I never offered it as a substitute, but merely another option for

resistance movements that involve both hip extension and knee flexion.

<Certainly, it may have a role in some applications, but the more versatile GHG

exercise is far more

suitable for a serious athlete who has limited time to include more than a few

supplementary

exercises into an already busy schedule. Mel Siff]

### I would agree.

Todd

Hattiesburg, MS

[Guest guest]

Mel - Have you published your results? Can you share them with us?

[unfortunately, those results are still sitting in a pile of storage boxes at my

former university -- they were carried out in a departmental biomechanics

project

and I haven't managed to have all of my remaining files and books shipped over

to me since I left S Africa several years ago. Anyway, I still have my

tensiometric

equipment here and intend setting up an EMG system one of these days to take up

where

I left off. Mel Siff]

Flanagan

San Diego/Los Angeles, CA

-----Original Message-----

From: todd137

Hobman <khobman@s...> wrote:

> I don't think this is a glute-ham-gastroc raise, is it?

### No, not at all, but it is a movement other that the glute-ham-

gastroc raise that allows you to bot extend the hip and flex the knee

in the same movement like the glute-ham-gastroc raise.

> [Mel Siff: You are correct - this is not anything like a GHG raiseand, as I

commented

> before, though this exercise certainly can be quite demanding, it is rather

trivial compared

> with the true GHG exercise, especially if one executes it with added load or

> under rapid conditions. Since that Ball exercise does not involve foot

plantarflexion,

> it also neglects the emphasis on gastroc action. ]

### I would disagree again, Dr. Siff - if you flex your knee until only

the ball of your foot is on the ball, it does involve significant

gastroc action, but as I stated earlier not nearly as much as the

glute-ham-gastroc raise.

[i have taken both EMG and myotensiometric measurements of the gastrocs

and hamstrings during accurately executed GHG and ball rolling hamstring

exercises and the former produces far greater muscle tension and electrical

activity than the latter exercise. Anyway, this simply stresses that the ball

rolling

exercise certainly acts as no substitute for the GHG exercise. Certainly, it

may have a

role in some applications, but the more versatile GHG exercise is far more

suitable

for a serious athlete who has limited time to include more than a few

supplementary exercises

into an alreadybusy schedule. Mel Siff]

Todd

[Guest guest]

I do a version of these in the gym that are really quite risky for the

knees, but are absolutely the best contraction for hamstrings I've ever

experienced. I was shown " Kamikazi's " about 12 years ago.

The idea is to kneel on a pulldown bench facing away from the machine, wedge

your heels under the bracing pad (putting at the highest setting for those

with small ankles, and with the knee cap hanging over the edge) and lower

your torso forward and down (tuck your head so you don't bump it on the

floor) until my legs are straight and my forehead is touching the bar

underneath the seat. It can be helpful to grasp the backs of one's knees on

the way down to stabilize.

If someone is willing to risk this, I highly suggest lowering yourself

slowly, as I think these are very precarious for the knees.

[if you hold the bar of a pulley machine loaded with weights that allow

you to descend slowly, then anyone can do this exercise. As you become

stronger, remove some weight and continue until you can do this exercise

without any assistance from the pulley system. I think that this very old

exercise has been described by Louie or Dave Tate in one of the Westside

articles. Mel Siff]

Navarra Reid

Saskatoon

[Guest guest]

An anonymous list member wrote:

<In reference to the discussion about plantarflexion/gastroc

involvement in the GH Raise, I found a cheaper alternative in

rehabilitating my torn gastroc muscle last summer. I purchased a

Power Wheel (about $40, can also be used for pushups), would lie on

my back, strap my feet in, get into a back bridge (wrestler's

bridge), allow my legs to roll away from me (lengthening the

hamstrings and gastroc), and then roll my legs back towards me. An

easier version is to start from a pelvic tilt and execute the same

motion. For those who don't have access to a GH Raise (as I did

not), the calves and hamstrings are forced to contract from a

stretched position, which stresses the muscles better than any

hamstring curl machine can... >

[Note that there is a major difference between a muscle that is " torn "

or completely ruptured and one which has experienced a small or partial

tear. Use of a GHG, Ball rolling or the above exercise would be contraindicated

during the earlier stages of rehabilitation of a full gastrocnemius

rupture. Mel Siff]

-----------

Mel Siff:

> > I have taken both EMG and myotensiometric measurements of the

> > gastrocs and hamstrings during accurately executed GHG and ball rolling

> > hamstring exercises and the former produces far greater muscle tension and

electrical

> > activity than the latter exercise. >

> >

> > ### I never asserted that it involved gastroc activity, and certainly

> > not more hamstring activity. You asserted that it did not involve

> > planter flexion. However, it clearly does when executed properly.

> > Because of the texture of the ball the recruitment of the gastroc (as

> > I had previously stated) will not be as great as it would be on a GHG bench.

> >

> > [Mel Siff: This is not what you wrote in message 18337: " I would

> disagree again, Dr. Siff - if you

> > flex your knee until only the ball of your foot is on the ball, it

> does involve significant

> > gastroc action, but as I stated earlier not nearly as much as the

> glute-ham-gastroc raise. " ]

> I know that, that was in a different post, but that is the post

> that I was referring to. Also, it should have read " 'more' gastroc

> activity, and certainly not more hamstring activity " as that is

> consistent will everything I have said in my posts in this thread.

> And I stand by it. The ball movement does involve significant plantar

> flexion. In none of my post did I assert that it involved more than

> the GHG, and in fact several times said that it didn't and even gave

> the reason why.

>

> Todd