Guest guest Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 well she wanted me to quit therapy. i really didn't want to. so she re-wrote my script for a much lighter therapy, if that doesn't work to water only. she could tell i was disappointed. she wants me to try the zanaflex even if only 1/2. she says i need to tie dan down so i am not alone. (yeah right) they took many cervical x-rays and said i only have one spot of arthritis in my neck, so that means it's muscular and best treatment would be therapy. just much gentler. so i guess it's time for me to try new drugs. also she said my buspar is also a muscle relaxare and could have been sparked when i tried to wean off. so i am going to eat and try my new drug. then i went to get my glasses and they were not ready, one of the lenses was faulty. i give up!~!! kathy in il Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 In a message dated 2/25/02 3:42:51 PM Central Standard Time, Matsumura_Clan@... writes: << http://www.myositis.org/definition.htm >> very interesting gina!! where do you find all the knowledge?? no one has ever mentioned this to me, but i have printed this and will check into it for sure. anyone have muscle biopsy? sounds like it'd hurt. kathy in il Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Kathy, has your doctor investigated your muscle weakness with a biopsy or blood tests? Since your diagnosis seems to still be in question, did she ever mention some type of myositis as a possibility or rule it out? Check out this link and see what you think: http://www.myositis.org/definition.htm Re: [ ] back from the dr > well she wanted me to quit therapy. i really didn't want to. so she re-wrote > my script for a much lighter therapy, if that doesn't work to water only. she > could tell i was disappointed. she wants me to try the zanaflex even if only > 1/2. she says i need to tie dan down so i am not alone. (yeah right) they > took many cervical x-rays and said i only have one spot of arthritis in my > neck, so that means it's muscular and best treatment would be therapy. just > much gentler. so i guess it's time for me to try new drugs. also she said my > buspar is also a muscle relaxare and could have been sparked when i tried to > wean off. so i am going to eat and try my new drug. then i went to get my > glasses and they were not ready, one of the lenses was faulty. i give up!~!! > kathy in il Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 I thought your starting T before treatment was in the 300's? Anyway, at least you see some progress. What amount of HCG does he want to use in the 2 shots? If he wants to use more than 1200Units, I would be very suspicious he is using the old school HCG routine, where you inject a large amount once or twice and expect it to heal the system, but I don't know if that is the right approach. Too high HCG will decensitize the leydig cells in the testicles either totally or partially. So you need to watch that. From what I understand, your T will keep rising with the continued use of clomid, and will not have maxed out after 1 week. However, 200mg per day is too high, 100mg per day very max, and that is still very high. Just my thoughts, but good to hear you are making progress, Armyguy > I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 days. It > raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's while on > the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering if i > used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't work > with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and Testes > can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any Thoughts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 If HCG is just for a test, there is no reason to use such high doses (half a bottle). That is old school. Studies prove too high of a dose of HCG can decensitize leydig cells to LH permanently. So that is not a good thing. There is no reason to test with such a high and risky dose. It is now common knowledge among top professionals in the field that smaller doses of HCG are enough to get the Testes making T at higher levels without risking leydig cell decensitization. Personally, I think he is doing things the wrong way injecting that much HCG. That being said, he's the doc, and I have never tried that high of an injection myself. Please keep us posted on whatever you are talking about re. belt on waist, sounds interesting and I have absolutely no idea what that might be. Cheers, Armyguy > > > I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 > days. > > It > > > raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > > > Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's while > > on > > > the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > > > when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > > > bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > > > there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > > > properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering > > if i > > > used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't > > work > > > with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > > > stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and > > Testes > > > can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > > Thoughts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Sounds like he is going to do a GnRH therapy. I have never heard of anyone doing this. Please let us know, this is pretty expensive and a different treatment. Although it is in the AACE Guidelines, I do not believe it is used a lot. As it seems to be pretty intrusive, i.e. subq pulses every 2 hours. Can you ask your doctor if he believes this will restart the axis or whether you are going to have to do this for the rest of your life. Here is some info: In patients with an otherwise intact pituitary gland and hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, synthetic GnRH can be given in a pulsatile fashion subcutaneously through a pump every 2 hours. GnRH therapy is monitored by measuring LH, FSH, and testosterone levels every 2 weeks until levels are in the normal range, at which point monitoring can be adjusted to every 2 months. GnRH can be used to initiate pubertal development, maintain virilization and sexual function, and initiate and maintain spermatogenesis. In most patients, these effects may take from 3 to 15 months to achieve sperm production (73). As with gonadotropin therapy, fertility can be achieved with very low sperm counts—often in the range of 1 million/mL. GnRH may be more effective than gonadotropin stimulation in increasing testicular size and initiating spermatogenesis in many patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (74).a > > > > > I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 > > > days. > > > > It > > > > > raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out > > any > > > > > Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's > > while > > > > on > > > > > the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next > > week > > > > > when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's > > 1/2 > > > > > bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or > > above > > > > > there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body > > working > > > > > properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was > > wondering > > > > if i > > > > > used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG > > doesn't > > > > work > > > > > with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know > > his > > > > > stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH > and > > > > Testes > > > > > can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > > > > Thoughts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Hmmm....that sounds like a lot of treatment for gyno (not that I am criticizing in this wonderful HMO world). You don't feel better with more T? > > > > > > > I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for > 7 > > > > > days. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled > out > > > > any > > > > > > > Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid > 300's > > > > while > > > > > > on > > > > > > > the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is > > next > > > > week > > > > > > > when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but > > it's > > > > 1/2 > > > > > > > bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's > or > > > > above > > > > > > > there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body > > > > working > > > > > > > properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was > > > > wondering > > > > > > if i > > > > > > > used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG > > > > doesn't > > > > > > work > > > > > > > with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to > > know > > > > his > > > > > > > stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my > LH > > > and > > > > > > Testes > > > > > > > can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > > > > > > Thoughts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look that good to me. On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are truly secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. About hCG, each bottle is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO he does not know what he is doing. I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@...> >Reply- > >Subject: Back from the DR >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 days. It >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's while on >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering if i >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't work >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and Testes >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any Thoughts ? > _________________________________________________________________ Say “good-bye” to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- free trial offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 IMO, it is too big of a dose, but it is not unheard of. The AACE guidelines call for the HCG test as follows: hCG Stimulation Test.—Various protocols are used for hCG stimulation testing. In general for postpubertal male patients, a single dose of hCG (5,000 IU intramuscularly) is administered, and pretherapy and 72-hour posttherapy testosterone measurements are done (some protocols use 1,000 to 4,000 IU of hCG or multiday dosing) (14). If you are truly only doing two shots, I wouldn't worry about it. The desensitivity of the leydig cells won't occur after two shots. I can't readily find the abstract, but I am pretty sure that the desensitivity occurred with long term use of high levels of HCG. Even the AACE guidelines for longterm HCG therapy provides as set forth below (however, these specifically reference peripubertal boys). For longterm therapy for HH Most specialists are using dosages in the 250 to 500 iu ranges 2 or 3x a week. Gonadotropin Therapy in Androgen Deficiency It is known that hCG binds to Leydig cell LH receptors and stimulates the production of testosterone. Peripubertal boys with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism and delayed puberty can be treated with hCG instead of testosterone to induce pubertal development. The initial regimen of hCG is usually 1,000 to 2,000 IU administered intramuscularly two to three times a week (65). The clinical response is monitored, and testosterone levels are measured about every 2 to 3 months. Dosage adjustments of hCG may be needed to determine an optimal schedule. Increasing doses of hCG may reduce testicular stimulation by down-regulating the end-organ; thus, a more optimal result may occur with less frequent or reduced dosing. The half-life of hCG is long. The advantages of hCG over testosterone in this setting include the stimulation of testicular growth, which may be an important issue for some men. Use of hCG may also yield greater stability of testosterone levels and fewer fluctuations in hypogonadal symptoms (66). In addition, hCG treatment is necessary for stimulating enough intratesticular testosterone to allow the initiation of spermatogenesis. The disadvantages of hCG include the need for more frequent injections and the greater cost. exogenous FSH, can often complete spermiogenesis in men with partial gonadotropin deficiency (68). In general, the response to hCG can be predicted on the basis of the initial testicular volume—the greater the initial testicular volume, the greater the chance of responding to hCG only (69). In one study, however, investigators demonstrated that most patients will respond to hCG alone regardless of initial testicular volume (70). Studies have shown that combining purified FSH and testosterone without LH or hCG does not stimulate spermatogenesis in truly hypogonadotropic men (71). > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look that good to > me. > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are truly > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. About hCG, each bottle > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO he does > not know what he is doing. > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > >Reply- > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 days. It > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's while on > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering if i > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't work > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and Testes > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any Thoughts ? > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- free trial > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Ah-ha! I wasn't aware of your steroid use. In that case, there is a chance of you getting your HPTA back into health. If the steroid use did not permanently damage the axis, you may be able to get back to a normal T level. I have never taken steroids, but there is a lot of cross-over between TRT and recovery from steroid use. So, did you properly cycle and recover while you were on? Good Luck Here is a very good study that you should show your Dr. and perhaps you should order a copy of it for your own edification: Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse. Tan RS, Vasudevan D. Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. robert.s.tan@... OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University- affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT (S): A 30-year-old male. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH. RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis. CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse. Publication Types: Case Reports > My first dr put me on T shots (200mg/3weeks) for 9 weeks (stupid) so > my T levels were probably more suppressed when I started the Clomid > (stared clomid 3 weeks after my last T shot). I don't know high they > could go in 7 days but my LH went from very Low to right at the high > side of normal, my Dr said the Pituitary is fine and he also ruled > out testicular cancer through a ultrasound. I guess I'll find out > next Friday when i get the results of the HCG, if i can hit high > 400's he said there is a very good chance i can return to normal. I > have never seen anyone's test results before/after Clomid but i do > know that guys usually try it for alot longer than 7 days so maybe if > i used 100mg/day for 30 days my levels would be even higher. I think > i'm a rare case because I have used steroids and Propecia in the past > and my ONLY sympthom of low T is gynecomastia. I grow a beard every > day, can have sex 4-5 times a night and my strength is good as I can > bench press 300lbs at a body weight of 190. If I didn't have the Gyne > I never would have even gone to the DR. > > > > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look that > good to > > me. > > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are truly > > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. About hCG, > each bottle > > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO > he does > > not know what he is doing. > > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > > >Reply- > > > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 days. > It > > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's while > on > > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering > if i > > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't > work > > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and > Testes > > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > Thoughts ? > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- > free trial > > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look that > good to me. > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are truly > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. I hate to ask you, but do you have any idea how to iterprit a Clomid stimulation test? LH should be " way up " ??? Sounds pretty unclear to me. How about: " A doubling of LH and a 20 to 50% increase in FSH are indicative of an intact hypothalamic-pituitary response. " That's taken from the AACE guidelines (2002). > About hCG, each bottle > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO he does > not know what he is doing. > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > Again, from the 2002 AACE guidelines: " ...a single dose of hCG 5,000 IU (intramuscularly), although some protocols use 1,000 to 4,000 IU or multiday dosing. " Quite a coincidence that his doc mentioned 5,000 IU. Maybe this MD is aware of the AACE guidelines. May you haven't bothered to look them over. Now, I could be wrong, the protocols could have changed. Please reply with the references for peer-reviewed medical studies if you're aware of recent changes. The AACE guidelines should be required reading for anyone dispensing their wisdom in this forum. Tom > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > >Reply- > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 days. It > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's while on > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering if i > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't work > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and Testes > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any Thoughts ? > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- free trial > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 > My first dr put me on T shots (200mg/3weeks) for 9 weeks (stupid) so > my T levels were probably more suppressed when I started the Clomid > (stared clomid 3 weeks after my last T shot). I don't know high they > could go in 7 days but my LH went from very Low to right at the high > side of normal, my Dr said the Pituitary is fine and he also ruled > out testicular cancer through a ultrasound. Your doc is likely on the ball (no pun intended) if your LH was ~ doubled. > I guess I'll find out > next Friday when i get the results of the HCG, if i can hit high > 400's he said there is a very good chance i can return to normal. I > have never seen anyone's test results before/after Clomid but i do > know that guys usually try it for alot longer than 7 days so maybe > if i used 100mg/day for 30 days my levels would be even higher. Seven days is for a Clomid stimulation test. Longer is what one might call, " therapy. " My T went from ~375 to over 900 ng/dL when on the stimulation test. In looking at your posts, I'd say your MD knows his stuff. Cheers, Tom I think > i'm a rare case because I have used steroids and Propecia in the past > and my ONLY sympthom of low T is gynecomastia. I grow a beard every > day, can have sex 4-5 times a night and my strength is good as I can > bench press 300lbs at a body weight of 190. If I didn't have the Gyne > I never would have even gone to the DR. > > > > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look that > good to > > me. > > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are truly > > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. About hCG, > each bottle > > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO > he does > > not know what he is doing. > > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > > >Reply- > > > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 days. > It > > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's while > on > > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering > if i > > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't > work > > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and > Testes > > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > Thoughts ? > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- > free trial > > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 > Tom, how long were you on Clomid to get your levels to 900? My dr is > only using Clomid and HCG for tests I think that's why he has high > dosages. He says he has a better way of stimulating the body if i > respond to the tests (some kind of pump) The protocol most typically employed is 100 mg/day (50mg 2x/day) for 7 to 10 days. I did 10 days. That was 18 months ago. Unfortunately, ~15 mg/day of Clomid cream (therapy) for 5 months did not raise T much. Guess I have poor skin absorption. I'm considering trying a Clomid troche (sublingual) for a period of time to see if that can prove more effective. Cheers, Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Skibum, Good points (although presented in a bit of a pointed style) As I said in my prior post, there is authority for the protocols as you aptly pointed out. However, a lot of people on this list are being treated by their own " specialists " , so they also have their opinions as to what consitutes proper treatment. Based upon my research on this topic, long term HCG treatment is much better tolerated at lower dosages. I know the sections you cited are from the stimulation tests of the AACE guidelines. HCG treatment has been " poo-poo'd " by many endos as being expensive and as leading to the possibility of desensitizing the leydig cells of the testes, i.e. long term use of HCG as a treatment therapy (at the higher dosages) may actually kill/desensitize the leydig cells, so HCG will no longer stimulate Test productions. Even the AACE guidelines calls for HCG treatment of 1,000 to 2,000 I/M two to three times a week. A lot of experts who treat hypogonadism have determined that this may be too high a dose and they can treat with much lower dosages. For example, one of the foremost doctors using HCG treatment is Dr. Shippen out of Atlanta, he proposed a much lower dosage of HCG, even for the stimulation test. Here is Zolt's primer on HCG, which includes the treatment protocol from Dr. Shippen (perhaps we should add this to our files?): Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) is a hormone found in men and women. Women secrete large amounts of HCG during pregnancy and men secrete large amounts during puberty. HCG is administered as a form of TRT. HCG is an alternative to standard TRT in men with low LH and FSH (i.e., secondary hypogonadism). To determine if you are a candidate for HCG you must have a blood test showing low T, LH and FSH. This blood test cannot be taken while you're on standard TRT because standard TRT shuts down LH and FSH production and thereby distorts the test results. Alternatively, a Clomid Stimulation Test can also demonstrate secondary hypogonadism (see separate posting on this topic). Rather than shutting down your body's natural T production system (like standard TRT does), HCG stimulates it back towards normal function. Your body produces it's own T. I believe that HCG is vastly superior to standard forms of TRT for the following reasons: 1. Better mimics the body's own natural physiologic rhythm of T production. 2. Easier to maintain normal T levels when administered properly. 3. More physiologic T levels minimize excess estradiol production (i.e., reduces aromatization). 4. Maintains normal size of testicles (in contrast, standard TRT shrinks the testicles). 5. Stimulates sperm production (thereby increasing/restoring fertility). In contrast, standard TRT reduces, if not eliminates, sperm production thereby making you infertile. 6. Restores normal function to testicles - the benefits of normal testicular function are not fully known. In his book " Saw Palmetto: Nature's Prostate Healer " , Ray Sahelian, M.D. says that the testicles and the prostate exchange enzymes. I don't know what purpose these enzymes serve, but I'd rather have them working than not working. 7. Restarts the pituitary/hypothalamus axis (see Medline article 4044781). My HCG dosage is very small (currently 480 IU per week). This means that my body is responding to HCG by producing more LH and FSH on the " off days. " Some have claimed that HCG can restart your system completely so that you can get off the shots and your body will maintain on it's own. While, I've yet to hear of someone for whom this has actually happened, my HCG dosage has steadily declined over 3 years from 1000 IU to 480 IU per week. Also, I feel good about the fact that my pituitary/hypothalamus axis is being stimulated to return towards normal function. The only disadvantage of HCG is that doctors are unaware of this excellent alternative. Doctors are usually down on what they are not up on. If you ask about HCG, most doctors will give you a variety of lame, ill-conceived reasons for not prescribing HCG. These excuses all add up to the fact that they don't know how to administer it properly and don't want to take the time to learn. I wonder what percentage of doctors would take the time to learn about HCG if they were diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism? Typical excuses for not prescribing HCG are (1) that the insurance company won't pay for it and (2) it's expensive. Both are absolutely untrue. As far as I know, all insurance companies pay for it (if the doctor clearly states in writing that it's for hypogonadism only) and it 's actually cheaper than standard forms of TRT. The current guidelines of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists (AACE) indicate that HCG should only be prescribed when a man is interested in fertility. As a result, most doctors will not prescribe HCG unless you tell them you are currently trying to have children. The AACE guidelines can be found at: www.aace.com/clin/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf These guidelines (written in 1996 and updated in 2002) are considered outdated by many practitioners with respect to HCG therapy for the following reasons: 1. The guidelines call for intramuscular HCG injections. Subcutaneous injections are much more convenient, much less painful and equally effective (see discussion below and/or just ask the many men who inject HCG subcutaneously or look at their blood test results). 2. The excessive HCG dosage levels suggested in the guidelines cause a variety of problems as discussed throughout this primer. In particular, excessive HCG dosages cause elevated estradiol (E2), which defeats many of the positive effects of increased T. 3. The guidelines cite expense and inconvenience as the reasons why one wouldn't use HCG otherwise. Aren't those my judgements to make? Of course they are! The funny thing is, if I were injecting 2000 to 6000 IU per week intramuscularly, I too would consider HCG therapy expensive and inconvenient, but also ineffective (due to E2 overload). Duh?! But instead, I inject 480 IU/week subcutaneously and find it to be inexpensive, convenient and highly effective. Unfortunately, doctors are unwilling to stray too far from their professional guidelines. Also, they are unwilling to devote the amount of time to each patient required for effective HCG therapy monitoring and education. That's just human nature. But we're talking about our health and future here! Think for yourself and you will see the fallacies in these doctors' arguments against it. Each day more and more doctors are becoming more and more aware of the benefits of HCG. In his landmark book, The Testosterone Syndrome, Dr. Eugene Shippen makes a strong case for HCG as an alternative to standard TRT in cases of secondary hypogonadism. This book is considered by many as the definitive book on TRT. Unfortunately, the vast majority of doctors are woefully ignorant about the proper dosage for HCG. In fact, the AACE clinical guidelines call for HCG dosages of 1000 to 2000 IU, two or three times a week. Scientific studies have demonstrated that HCG dosage levels of about 5,000 IU per week or more administered long-term cause permanent damage to the testicles (see Medline articles 6210708 and 3583230). These studies have shown that such excessive HCG dosages taken long-term result in testicular desensitization (to future stimulation by LH or HCG). In other words, long-term, such excessive dosages of HCG will result in primary hypogonadism! Also, the AACE guidelines call for intramuscular injections when scientific studies show that subcutaneous injections work equally as well (see Medline article 8075787). My experience as well as hundreds of other men's experience proves this point. Subcutaneous injections are much easier to administer and far less painful than intramuscular injections. The ONLY protocol that should be used is Dr. Shippen's HCG protocol. Dr. Shippen's protocol calls for low dose shots (about 300 to 500 IU) at bedtime, 2 to 5 times a week depending upon your responsiveness. This protocol more closely mimics the body's natural physiologic rhythm of LH production. Below is a copy of Dr. Eugene Shippen's HCG protocol that he emailed to me on 3/17/01. If you are interested in HCG therapy, I suggest that you show this protocol to your doctor. If your doctor has any questions, he/she should contact Dr. Shippen. Prior to HCG therapy, Shippen gave me a Clomid Stimulation test to rule out any hypothalamus/pituitary issues such as tumors, etc. My response to this test was good. He then put me on Selegiline, which raised my T, but not enough for me. HCG is available in shots only. It is self-administered at bedtime using the smallest of needles (0.5 cc, 30 gauge, 5/16 " ). Shots are simple and virtually painless. ***************************** Chorionic Gonadotrophin Stimulation Test (males < 75 years old)* Chorionic Gonadotrophin is presently available through most pharmacies or distributors as Profasi, Pregnyl or generic Chorionic Gonadotrophin 10,000 units per 10 cc vial. Various stimulation tests have been described, from high dose, short course testing to more normal physiologic doses over a longer time period. I have found that a typical treatment course for three weeks is best for determining those individuals who will respond well to this type of treatment. It is administered by injection 500 units (0.5 cc) SQ, Monday through Friday for three weeks. Teach patient to self administer with 50 Unit Insulin Syringes with 30 gauge needles in anterior thigh, seated with both hands free to perform the injection. Measure: Testosterone, total and free, plus E2 before starting CG and on the third Saturday AM after 3 weeks of stimulation (salivary testing may be more accurate for adjusting doses). Studies have shown that SQ is equal in efficacy to IM administration. Results: 1. <20% rise suggests poor testicular reserve of leydig cell function (primary hypo-gonadism or eu-gonadotrophic hypo-gonadism indicating combined central and peripheral factors). 2. 20-50% increase indicates adequate reserve but slightly depressed response, mostly central inhibition but possibly decreased testicular response as well. 3. > 50% increase suggests primarily centrally mediated depression of testicular function. Options for treatment vary both with the response to CG and patient determined choices. 1. If there is an inadequate response (< 20%), then replacement with testosterone will be indicated. 2. The area in between 20-50% will usually require CG boosting for a period of time, plus natural boosting or " partial " replacement options. I believe that full replacement with exogenous testosterone is always the last option in borderline cases since improvement over time may frequently occur as leydig cell regeneration may actually happen. Much of this is age dependent. Up to age 60, boosting is almost always successful. 60-75 is variable, but will usually be clear by the results of the stimulation test. Also, disease related depression of testosterone output might be reversible with adequate treatment of the underlying process (depression, AMI, obesity, alcohol, deficiency, etc.) This positive effect will not occur if suppressive therapy is instituted in the form of full replacement. 3. If there is an adequate response, >50% rise in testosterone, there is very good leydig cell reserve. Natural boosting or CG therapy will probably be successful in restoring full testosterone output without replacement, a better option over the long term and a more natural restoration of biologic fluctuations for optimal response. 4. Chorionic Gonadotrophin can be self-administered and adjusted according to response. In younger, high output responders (T > 1100ng/dl), CG can be given every third or fourth day at bedtime or in the AM. This also minimizes estrogen conversion. In lower level responders(600-800ng/dl), or those with a higher E2 output associated with full dose CG, 300-500 units can be given Mon-Wed-Fri. At times, sluggish responders may require a higher dose to achieve full Testosterone response. In these cases, the diluent is lowered to 7.5cc or even to 5 cc, which increases the CG concentration 1 ½ - 2 X. This can be administered in variable doses 0.3 - 0.5cc given every 3rd day. Check salivary levels on the day of the next injection, but before the next injection to determine effectiveness and to adjust the dose accordingly. Keep in mind that later as leydig cell restoration occurs, a reduction in dose or frequency of administration may be later needed. 5. Monitor both Testosterone and E2 levels to assess response to treatment after 2 - 3 weeks after change in dose of CG as well as periodic intervals during chronic administration. Sublingual testing is very easy and cost effective. It will also better reflect the true free levels of both estrogens and testosterone. (Pharmasan Labs 888-342- 7272 is very good) 6. Adjustment of dosage is a result of symptomatic response and hormone level boosting. It is based on clinical judgement as much as actual hormone levels. Remember that " Normal " ranges are for populations, not individuals! 7. Except for reports of antibodies developing against CG (I have not seen this), there are no adverse effects of chronic CG administration. An additional benefit is the boosting of Growth Hormone output which has also been reported, either as a direct effect of CG or as an effect of increased levels of testosterone. *Protocol adapted from " The Testosterone Syndrome " by Eugene Shippen, M. D. (M and Co, NY 1998). Posted on ASI with permission of Eugene Shippen, M. D. > > > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look that > > good to me. > > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are truly > > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. > > I hate to ask you, but do you have any idea how to iterprit a Clomid > stimulation test? LH should be " way up " ??? Sounds pretty unclear to > me. How about: > > " A doubling of LH and a 20 to 50% increase in FSH are indicative of an > intact hypothalamic-pituitary response. " That's taken from the AACE > guidelines (2002). > > > About hCG, each bottle > > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO he > does > > not know what he is doing. > > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > > > Again, from the 2002 AACE guidelines: > > " ...a single dose of hCG 5,000 IU (intramuscularly), although some > protocols use 1,000 to 4,000 IU or multiday dosing. " > > Quite a coincidence that his doc mentioned 5,000 IU. Maybe this MD is > aware of the AACE guidelines. May you haven't bothered to look them > over. Now, I could be wrong, the protocols could have changed. Please > reply with the references for peer-reviewed medical studies if you're > aware of recent changes. > > The AACE guidelines should be required reading for anyone dispensing > their wisdom in this forum. > > Tom > > > > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > > >Reply- > > > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 days. It > > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's while on > > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering if i > > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't work > > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and Testes > > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any Thoughts ? > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- free > trial > > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 > Skibum, > > Good points (although presented in a bit of a pointed style) [AACE guidelines snipped for brevity] I was speaking only of the stimulation testing, not regimes for ongoing therapy. My style may be a bit pointed, but my hope is that more men take the initiative to do just a bit of reading (eg, the AACE guidelines often mentioned here) when speaking of medical protocols. These hopes have arisen not solely from the post regarding hCG testing, but more from posts that ask really basic fundamental questions that one can have answered through a simple google search. As a research scientist, it just my nature to reseach " stuff. " Cheers, Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Just one more point before I turn this damned computer off for the weekend. Yes, I'm aware that Shippen (he's still in Reading, PA, no?) endorses lower doses for stimulation testing. It would have been better had the poster said, " I'm aware that the AACE guidelines call for 5,000 IU in hCG stiumation tests. However, there appears to be a growing consensus that lower dose(s) are adequate for testing the HPT response, and considerable evidence that high theraputic doses can lead to permenant desesitization of the leydig cells. " Or something like that.... Cheers, Tom > > > > > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look > that > > > good to me. > > > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are > truly > > > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. > > > > I hate to ask you, but do you have any idea how to iterprit a Clomid > > stimulation test? LH should be " way up " ??? Sounds pretty unclear > to > > me. How about: > > > > " A doubling of LH and a 20 to 50% increase in FSH are indicative of > an > > intact hypothalamic-pituitary response. " That's taken from the AACE > > guidelines (2002). > > > > > About hCG, each bottle > > > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO > he > > does > > > not know what he is doing. > > > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > > > > > > > Again, from the 2002 AACE guidelines: > > > > " ...a single dose of hCG 5,000 IU (intramuscularly), although some > > protocols use 1,000 to 4,000 IU or multiday dosing. " > > > > Quite a coincidence that his doc mentioned 5,000 IU. Maybe this MD > is > > aware of the AACE guidelines. May you haven't bothered to look them > > over. Now, I could be wrong, the protocols could have changed. > Please > > reply with the references for peer-reviewed medical studies if > you're > > aware of recent changes. > > > > The AACE guidelines should be required reading for anyone dispensing > > their wisdom in this forum. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > > > >Reply- > > > > > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > > > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > > > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 > days. It > > > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > > > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's > while on > > > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > > > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > > > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > > > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > > > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering > if i > > > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't > work > > > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > > > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and > Testes > > > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > Thoughts ? > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- > free > > trial > > > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 I agree with , in my personaly opinion, I think that is too high a dose and is unnecessary. > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look that good to > me. > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are truly > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. About hCG, each bottle > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO he does > not know what he is doing. > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > >Reply- > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 days. It > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's while on > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering if i > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't work > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and Testes > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any Thoughts ? > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- free trial > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 I just said I personally think it is too much. But will agree with Tallen on this point. If the guy says he has healed Low T problems in the past for good using his methods, and if it is only two injections, then might as well see if he can do it for you. Armyguy > > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look that > good to > > me. > > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are truly > > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. About hCG, > each bottle > > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO > he does > > not know what he is doing. > > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > > >Reply- > > > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 days. > It > > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's while > on > > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering > if i > > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't > work > > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and > Testes > > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > Thoughts ? > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- > free trial > > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 I find it quite suprising that your T is so low yet you: have sex 4- 5 times a night, bench 300 etc. etc. That is interesting, I don't quite understand it personally. Regardless, it definitely sounds to me like your scenario is one that you can fix permanently and get off the drugs, as long as all you are concerned about is the gyn and you avoid propecia and steroids from here on out... > > My first dr put me on T shots (200mg/3weeks) for 9 weeks (stupid) > so > > my T levels were probably more suppressed when I started the Clomid > > (stared clomid 3 weeks after my last T shot). I don't know high > they > > could go in 7 days but my LH went from very Low to right at the > high > > side of normal, my Dr said the Pituitary is fine and he also ruled > > out testicular cancer through a ultrasound. I guess I'll find out > > next Friday when i get the results of the HCG, if i can hit high > > 400's he said there is a very good chance i can return to normal. > I > > have never seen anyone's test results before/after Clomid but i do > > know that guys usually try it for alot longer than 7 days so maybe > if > > i used 100mg/day for 30 days my levels would be even higher. I > think > > i'm a rare case because I have used steroids and Propecia in the > past > > and my ONLY sympthom of low T is gynecomastia. I grow a beard > every > > day, can have sex 4-5 times a night and my strength is good as I > can > > bench press 300lbs at a body weight of 190. If I didn't have the > Gyne > > I never would have even gone to the DR. > > > > > > > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look > that > > good to > > > me. > > > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are > truly > > > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. About hCG, > > each bottle > > > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO > > he does > > > not know what he is doing. > > > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > > > >Reply- > > > > > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > > > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > > > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 > days. > > It > > > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > > > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's > while > > on > > > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > > > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > > > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > > > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > > > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering > > if i > > > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't > > work > > > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > > > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and > > Testes > > > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > > Thoughts ? > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- > > free trial > > > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Always good to have research scientist on board in the forum. Takes all types to keep this forum on track. I think we are doing well overall and we should all keep up the good work . Armyguy > > > > > > > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look > > that > > > > good to me. > > > > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are > > truly > > > > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. > > > > > > I hate to ask you, but do you have any idea how to iterprit a Clomid > > > stimulation test? LH should be " way up " ??? Sounds pretty unclear > > to > > > me. How about: > > > > > > " A doubling of LH and a 20 to 50% increase in FSH are indicative of > > an > > > intact hypothalamic-pituitary response. " That's taken from the AACE > > > guidelines (2002). > > > > > > > About hCG, each bottle > > > > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, IMHO > > he > > > does > > > > not know what he is doing. > > > > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, from the 2002 AACE guidelines: > > > > > > " ...a single dose of hCG 5,000 IU (intramuscularly), although some > > > protocols use 1,000 to 4,000 IU or multiday dosing. " > > > > > > Quite a coincidence that his doc mentioned 5,000 IU. Maybe this MD > > is > > > aware of the AACE guidelines. May you haven't bothered to look them > > > over. Now, I could be wrong, the protocols could have changed. > > Please > > > reply with the references for peer-reviewed medical studies if > > you're > > > aware of recent changes. > > > > > > The AACE guidelines should be required reading for anyone dispensing > > > their wisdom in this forum. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > > > > >Reply- > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > > > > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > > > > > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 > > days. It > > > > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out any > > > > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's > > while on > > > > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next week > > > > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's 1/2 > > > > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or above > > > > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body working > > > > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was wondering > > if i > > > > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG doesn't > > work > > > > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know his > > > > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH and > > Testes > > > > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > > Thoughts ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- > > free > > > trial > > > > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 No worries. I think everyone is after the same thing, to feel " normal and healthy " . I agree there are those who do not take the time to read the guidelines or perform a simple google search. It is my hope that we can all use this forum to educate one another and we should all keep open minds on different forms of therapy. I hope one day, we can all take a pill that heals our HPTA and keeps are T in the upper quadrant of normal. > > Skibum, > > > > Good points (although presented in a bit of a pointed style) > > [AACE guidelines snipped for brevity] > > I was speaking only of the stimulation testing, not regimes for > ongoing therapy. > > My style may be a bit pointed, but my hope is that more men take the > initiative to do just a bit of reading (eg, the AACE guidelines often > mentioned here) when speaking of medical protocols. These hopes have > arisen not solely from the post regarding hCG testing, but more from > posts that ask really basic fundamental questions that one can have > answered through a simple google search. > > As a research scientist, it just my nature to reseach " stuff. " > > Cheers, > Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Agreed! > > > > > > > > > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not > look > > > that > > > > > good to me. > > > > > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you > are > > > truly > > > > > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. > > > > > > > > I hate to ask you, but do you have any idea how to iterprit a > Clomid > > > > stimulation test? LH should be " way up " ??? Sounds pretty > unclear > > > to > > > > me. How about: > > > > > > > > " A doubling of LH and a 20 to 50% increase in FSH are > indicative of > > > an > > > > intact hypothalamic-pituitary response. " That's taken from > the AACE > > > > guidelines (2002). > > > > > > > > > About hCG, each bottle > > > > > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, > IMHO > > > he > > > > does > > > > > not know what he is doing. > > > > > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, from the 2002 AACE guidelines: > > > > > > > > " ...a single dose of hCG 5,000 IU (intramuscularly), although > some > > > > protocols use 1,000 to 4,000 IU or multiday dosing. " > > > > > > > > Quite a coincidence that his doc mentioned 5,000 IU. Maybe > this MD > > > is > > > > aware of the AACE guidelines. May you haven't bothered to > look them > > > > over. Now, I could be wrong, the protocols could have > changed. > > > Please > > > > reply with the references for peer-reviewed medical studies if > > > you're > > > > aware of recent changes. > > > > > > > > The AACE guidelines should be required reading for anyone > dispensing > > > > their wisdom in this forum. > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > > > > > >Reply- > > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > > > > > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 > > > days. It > > > > > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out > any > > > > > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's > > > while on > > > > > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is > next week > > > > > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but > it's 1/2 > > > > > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or > above > > > > > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body > working > > > > > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was > wondering > > > if i > > > > > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG > doesn't > > > work > > > > > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to > know his > > > > > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH > and > > > Testes > > > > > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > > > Thoughts ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN > Premium -- > > > free > > > > trial > > > > > offer! > http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 > > > > My first dr put me on T shots (200mg/3weeks) for 9 weeks > > (stupid) > > > so > > > > my T levels were probably more suppressed when I started the > > Clomid > > > > (stared clomid 3 weeks after my last T shot). I don't know > high > > > they > > > > could go in 7 days but my LH went from very Low to right at the > > > high > > > > side of normal, my Dr said the Pituitary is fine and he also > > ruled > > > > out testicular cancer through a ultrasound. I guess I'll find > > out > > > > next Friday when i get the results of the HCG, if i can hit > high > > > > 400's he said there is a very good chance i can return to > > normal. > > > I > > > > have never seen anyone's test results before/after Clomid but i > > do > > > > know that guys usually try it for alot longer than 7 days so > > maybe > > > if > > > > i used 100mg/day for 30 days my levels would be even higher. I > > > think > > > > i'm a rare case because I have used steroids and Propecia in > the > > > past > > > > and my ONLY sympthom of low T is gynecomastia. I grow a beard > > > every > > > > day, can have sex 4-5 times a night and my strength is good as > I > > > can > > > > bench press 300lbs at a body weight of 190. If I didn't have > the > > > Gyne > > > > I never would have even gone to the DR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look > > > that > > > > good to > > > > > me. > > > > > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are > > > truly > > > > > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. About > > hCG, > > > > each bottle > > > > > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, > > IMHO > > > > he does > > > > > not know what he is doing. > > > > > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > > > > > >Reply- > > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > > > > > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 > > > days. > > > > It > > > > > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out > > any > > > > > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's > > > while > > > > on > > > > > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next > > week > > > > > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's > > 1/2 > > > > > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or > > above > > > > > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body > > working > > > > > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was > > wondering > > > > if i > > > > > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG > > doesn't > > > > work > > > > > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know > > his > > > > > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH > > and > > > > Testes > > > > > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > > > > Thoughts ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium - > - > > > > > > free trial > > > > > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 That is a very interesting opinion. I do agree, that especially for men under 50, jumping to TRT is not the right thing to do unless it is an obvious case of primary hypo. Being addicted to TRT for life should be the last resort. (It is a good solution as a last resort, but should be avoided if at all possible to get body working properly again) Armyguy > > > > > My first dr put me on T shots (200mg/3weeks) for 9 weeks > > > (stupid) > > > > so > > > > > my T levels were probably more suppressed when I started the > > > Clomid > > > > > (stared clomid 3 weeks after my last T shot). I don't know > > high > > > > they > > > > > could go in 7 days but my LH went from very Low to right at the > > > > high > > > > > side of normal, my Dr said the Pituitary is fine and he also > > > ruled > > > > > out testicular cancer through a ultrasound. I guess I'll find > > > out > > > > > next Friday when i get the results of the HCG, if i can hit > > high > > > > > 400's he said there is a very good chance i can return to > > > normal. > > > > I > > > > > have never seen anyone's test results before/after Clomid but i > > > do > > > > > know that guys usually try it for alot longer than 7 days so > > > maybe > > > > if > > > > > i used 100mg/day for 30 days my levels would be even higher. I > > > > think > > > > > i'm a rare case because I have used steroids and Propecia in > > the > > > > past > > > > > and my ONLY sympthom of low T is gynecomastia. I grow a beard > > > > every > > > > > day, can have sex 4-5 times a night and my strength is good as > > I > > > > can > > > > > bench press 300lbs at a body weight of 190. If I didn't have > > the > > > > Gyne > > > > > I never would have even gone to the DR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to tell you, but your response to Clomid does not look > > > > that > > > > > good to > > > > > > me. > > > > > > On such gigantic dose your LH should be way up and if you are > > > > truly > > > > > > secondary your T should be much much higher taht 300. About > > > hCG, > > > > > each bottle > > > > > > is 10000 Iu, if he wants you to use half bottle in one shot, > > > IMHO > > > > > he does > > > > > > not know what he is doing. > > > > > > I'd extremely careful with such big doses of meds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: " mfb178 " <mfb178@y...> > > > > > > >Reply- > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Back from the DR > > > > > > >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:39:59 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I may have some good news. I was on Clomid 200mg/day for 7 > > > > days. > > > > > It > > > > > > >raised my LH well into the normal range and my Dr ruled out > > > any > > > > > > >Pituitary problems. My T went from high 100's to mid 300's > > > > while > > > > > on > > > > > > >the Clomid, a good sign I was told but the real test is next > > > week > > > > > > >when I get 2 shots of HCG, I'm not sure of the dose but it's > > > 1/2 > > > > > > >bottle each time. He said if my T rises in to the 400's or > > > above > > > > > > >there is a good chance that I will be able to get my body > > > working > > > > > > >properly again. I only used Clomid for 7 days and was > > > wondering > > > > > if i > > > > > > >used it longer if that by itself may help or if the HCG > > > doesn't > > > > > work > > > > > > >with 2 shots should it be given longer. My Dr seems to know > > > his > > > > > > >stuff and what he is trying are just tests to see if my LH > > > and > > > > > Testes > > > > > > >can perform so maybe the 2 shots is enough to check. Any > > > > > Thoughts ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Say " good-bye " to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium - > > - > > > > > > > > free trial > > > > > > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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