Re: Newbie Advise

[Guest guest]

Hello and congratulations!

We require that all members read “The 120 Year Diet” by Walford (available in most public libraries). It sounds like you haven’t read this important book. You will learn a lot (even though much new info has come to light since it was written) and you will find it invaluable. Also read our folder “Beginning CRON” and the file: “CR Made Easy”.

I hope you are under a doctor’s care. A pound a day is a very large weight loss very fast. We usually recommend slow long-term weight loss (which is what Walford recommends). But your case is special and you should consult a physician. Perhaps after a number of weeks, you can slow down the very rapid weight loss

Good luck!!

-------------------

Hi

Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this. I am very new to

calorie restriction. I have been studying this for a few months and

have read a whole lot of

material on the web including in this group. I have decided to take

the plunge. But my situation is this. (I am morbidly obese ˆ 47 years

old, over 400 lbs, blood pressure 148/100, cholesterol level 230,

high-normal blood sugar levels.) I have been obese most all my life.

After high school I was 285 lbs. Where/how should I consider my set

point to be? Where would someone like me begin? I have tried a lot of

diets and only with going to the gym for several hours a day 5 to 6

days a week and sound diet I cannot stay at a healthy weight and keep

my vitals in check. This is much too much time to keep this schedule

and spend quality time in the rest of my life. (family, work, so on.)

I have come to the conclusion that we just

have to cut the calories. I have started eating more vegetables and fruit cutting out my everyday red meat

not restricting my calories drastically but enough that I am losing

at this point 1 lb per day) As I get my health in line I will be more

strict in my new CR lifestyle. Can some of you who are more

experienced than I am guide me in the right direction?

[Guest guest]

There is good advice in Walford's book about initiation of more healthful eating practices. I would suggest a longer term perspective on your eating behavior. You didn't become obese overnight and shouldn't be in a hurry to get slender. At a loss of a pound a day you would waste away in a year. To some extent this will self regulate as you lose weight your energy balance will adjust too.Rather than thinking of this as some different kind of weight loss diet, I would approach this as a plan for eating that you can and will follow for the rest of your hopefully improved and extended lifetime. So without repeating Walford's complete advice, first adress your nutritional needs. If you are deficient in nutrients that can drive your appetite beyond just energy needs, After you have covered your nutritional bases, start improving the quality or efficiency of your nutrition sources. Foods that deliver more nutrition while burdening you with less calories are preferred.Addressing this as a long term program means dietary changes can be gradual and incremental rather than abrupt and absolute. About the only food I have an absolute prohibition against is trans-fats. If I feel like a piece of chocolate cake on my birthday, no problem. It's what you eat the other 364 days that will define your waistline and general health.Completely avoiding your favorite foods will just set you up for failure, so IMO it's OK to reward yourself occasionally. Your energy balance is measured in the average over time and not dominated by isolated events.So slow down and adopt healthy eating patterns that you can live with. JR  On Apr 1, 2007, at 10:03 AM, wrote:HiForgive me if this is the wrong place for this. I am very new to calorie restriction. I have been studying this for a few months and have read a whole lot of material on the web including in this group. I have decided to take the plunge. But my situation is this. (I am morbidly obese – 47 years old, over 400 lbs, blood pressure 148/100, cholesterol level 230, high-normal blood sugar levels.) I have been obese most all my life. After high school I was 285 lbs. Where/how should I consider my set point to be? Where would someone like me begin? I have tried a lot of diets and only with going to the gym for several hours a day 5 to 6 days a week and sound diet I cannot stay at a healthy weight and keep my vitals in check. This is much too much time to keep this schedule and spend quality time in the rest of my life. (family, work, so on.) I have come to the conclusion that we just have to cut the calories. I have started eating more vegetables and fruit cutting out my everyday red meat not restricting my calories drastically but enough that I am losing at this point 1 lb per day) As I get my health in line I will be more strict in my new CR lifestyle. Can some of you who are more experienced than I am guide me in the right direction?

[Guest guest]

Hi :

First of all, congratulations on making the decision to get your

health in order.

Second, if you have not done so already, read Dr. Walford's 'Beyond

the 120-Year Diet' ........ and I found I had to read it three

times minimum to get a half-decent perspective of what it is about.

Third, for now forget about your set-point. It is a bit of a hazy

topic at the best of times. Concentrate on what really matters for

you in the short term - you are nowhere remotely close to the point

where your set-point has any relevance. But it will ..... later.

Fourth, go and have a checkup with your doctor SOON to get all your

important biomarkers checked so that you have a reference point

against which to watch your progress. Measure also, right now, the

circumferences of: your waist (narrowest point); your 'hip' (largest

circumference below your waist); your abdomen at the level of your

navel; your neck (sloping down from back to front). All these

numbers you will find very helpful later, because the satisfaction

you will get in seeing them improve will be a major factor motivating

you to continue your efforts to improve your health. In addition to

the regular tests almost always done, try to also have measured all

of the following: high sensitivity C-reactive protein; fasting

INSULIN (in addition to fasting glucose); body fat percent; carotid

IMT. It is very likely you will find all of these give poor readings

right now. But they will all steadily improve as you get your

caloric intake under control.

Fifth, start logging you food intake into CRON-o-Meter to get an idea

of what you present caloric intake is. Later you will need it to

track to make sure you are not deficient in any important nutrients.

Sixth, CUT OUT ALL THE JUNK FOODS AND EMPTY CALORIES FROM YOUR DIET.

Empty calories means sugars, corn starch and the foods that contain

them, soft drinks and all the other foods that contain tons of

calories and few of the healthy nutrients that we really need.

Seventh, realize that just cutting intake by 100 calories a day will

drop your weight, given time, by about 15 pounds. So comparatively

small changes have large effects.

Eighth, recognize that (from my experience) just one day eating ad

lib will take NINE days to reverse. One week eating ad lib takes

nine weeks to reverse. One month eating ad lib takes nine months to

reverse .............. . The reserves of willpower used up in

reversing ad lib eating are so huge it is far far easier (for me) to

avoid the ad lib eating in the first place (just my experience from

making the effort to measure this stuff).

Ninth, please keep us up to date on your progress. One way to do

that, if you like, would be to put your data into the database here

('database' link on left of page, then click 'BMI and WC/H Info').

Then update it periodically. I would be especially interested to see

your data for weight and body fat percentage at six-monthly intervals

if you would be prepared to share them. If necessary, I would be

happy to keep them confidential if you preferred that. This would

provide some very helpful and revealing data for us here that does

not seem to be readily available from other sources. (PLEASE!!!)

Tenth, good luck! Great to see you taking the bull by the horns. In

my experience I have found that weight loss becomes easier as time

goes by. So do not be discouraged if you hit what looks like

a 'plateau' from time to time. Everyone does. But restraint IS

necessary, of course.

Rodney.

--- In , " " <schurbon7920@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi

>

> Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this. I am very new to

> calorie restriction. I have been studying this for a few months and

> have read a whole lot of

> material on the web including in this group. I have decided to take

> the plunge. But my situation is this. (I am morbidly obese – 47

years

> old, over 400 lbs, blood pressure 148/100, cholesterol level 230,

> high-normal blood sugar levels.) I have been obese most all my life.

> After high school I was 285 lbs. Where/how should I consider my set

> point to be? Where would someone like me begin? I have tried a lot

of

> diets and only with going to the gym for several hours a day 5 to 6

> days a week and sound diet I cannot stay at a healthy weight and

keep

> my vitals in check. This is much too much time to keep this schedule

> and spend quality time in the rest of my life. (family, work, so

on.)

> I have come to the conclusion that we just

> have to cut the calories. I have started eating more vegetables and

fruit cutting out my everyday red meat

> not restricting my calories drastically but enough that I am losing

> at this point 1 lb per day) As I get my health in line I will be

more

> strict in my new CR lifestyle. Can some of you who are more

> experienced than I am guide me in the right direction?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Amen to the previous posts, particularly Rodney's.

>Hi

>

>Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this. I am very new to

>calorie restriction. I have been studying this for a few months and

>have read a whole lot of

>material on the web including in this group. I have decided to take

>the plunge. But my situation is this. (I am morbidly obese – 47 years

>old, over 400 lbs, blood pressure 148/100, cholesterol level 230,

>high-normal blood sugar levels.)

Sounds to me as though you have wonderful Opportunities for Improvement on

all fronts.

;-)

Your cholesterol level is actually not bad for carrying such a load, and

that you're not yet frankly diabetic at 400/47 is also remarkable, so it

sounds as though underneath all of that adiposity you probably have some

pretty good genetic predispositions working for you if you can stop shoving

so much food down your throat to appease your fat cells. Not a criticism:

all of us, to some degree, have the little critters knocking on our door

continually. But the fewer and smaller the fat cells, the quieter their

knocking, so you've got quite a gang after you at present, I'd wager.

>I have been obese most all my life.

>After high school I was 285 lbs. Where/how should I consider my set

>point to be?

How tall are you?

>Where would someone like me begin? I have tried a lot of

>diets and only with going to the gym for several hours a day 5 to 6

>days a week and sound diet I cannot stay at a healthy weight and keep

>my vitals in check.

Obviously because you continue to eat too much. There's no magic here.

>This is much too much time to keep this schedule

>and spend quality time in the rest of my life. (family, work, so on.)

Eating less will save you time, and it sounds as though your level of

exercise is counterproductive, on balance, IF you'll stop wolfing down so

much. So you have the prospect of better health and much more free time if

you'll do the harder thing (eat less). It's always more gratifying to the

ego to maintain or reduce one's weight through exercise in place of frank

CR. The problem is that it, eventually, doesn't work because of injury or

interruption or something.

If you gain control over what you choose to put in your mouth, you'll have

a self-empowering ability that will serve you well for the rest of your

days (which will likely be more than you're presently signed up for).

>I have come to the conclusion that we just

>have to cut the calories.

Yep. You and ?

>I have started eating more vegetables and fruit cutting out my everyday

>red meat

>not restricting my calories drastically but enough that I am losing

>at this point 1 lb per day)

That's because you currently need to consume something like 6000 calories

(I assume that you're rounding _down_ to 400 pounds) to maintain your

weight, and 1 lb/day is too fast. Exercise less and aim for a couple of

pounds loss a week, and, again, do read Walford's book, pronto. You have a

lot of bad stuff trapped in your fat cells, and you don't want to bathe

your body in those lipophilic toxins for the entire time it takes you to

get down to under 200.

>As I get my health in line I will be more

>strict in my new CR lifestyle. Can some of you who are more

>experienced than I am guide me in the right direction?

The ol' journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step, so just keep

taking the steps and don't get goal-fixated or too worried or too proud

about where you are along the path.

Maco

[Guest guest]

Hi Maco

My height is 5'10'.5

>From: Maco <mstewart@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: [ ] Newbie Advise

>Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 06:58:21 -0600

>

>Amen to the previous posts, particularly Rodney's.

>

>

>How tall are you?

>

>

>Maco

[Guest guest]

I'd like to throw in a few words of encouragement and advice from the

trenches. A few years ago, I too weighed over 400 lbs (450ish??),

today weigh 235, and am still going down. Despite my best efforts, I

have managed to lose an average of only 30-40 pounds a year.

Theoretically, I could lose at a faster rate but have been unable to

do so, so don't beat yourself up if it takes a lot longer than you

think to lose the weight. It's hard work.

I agree with the advice given by others to learn to eat fewer calories

and cut back on the exercise. I exercise about 2 hours a day, but I

think this is too much for optimal weight loss. One hour is about

right for me. If I exercise more, it becomes increasingly difficult to

cut calories. (I do 2 hours a day because of specific fitness goals

that I have, not for weight loss).

Calorie counting is rarely a popular thing to do, but it has been

essential to my success though I don't do it all the time now because

it's a PITA. I think that whatever calorie goal you set for yourself

(2,000/day ???), if you're not counting, how do you know how much

you're eating? There have been studies reported on this forum and in

the press that show that obese people consistently underestimate the

number of calories that they eat. So I think counting calories is a

must at least until you learn control.

I have little patience for otherwise good and healthy diets that say

something like " just eat all this wonderful, healthy food and you'll

just naturally feel full and lose weight without counting calories. "

The authors of these books fail to realize that feeling full has

almost nothing to do with stopping eating for me and many other obese

people. In fact, my worst days of eating came when I sat down to the

table already full for then there is nothing to tell you to stop

except all the empty platters. I've had to learn how to stop eating

and counting calories has been my best tool for this.

Maybe it can work for you, too.

You probably have a long-term goal of getting below 200 lbs

(170ish???). Another practice I recommend is to set yourself short and

intermediate term goals. A short term goal might be " I'm going to lose

2 lbs this week. " An intermediate term goal might be " I'm going to

lose enough weight so that I can get on an airplane and not have to

ask for a seat-belt extension " (for me: 340 lbs. and what a relief to

avoid that embarrassment). I can still remember the first time I went

to a movie theater (LOTR: The Return of the King) in nearly 15 years

and actually fit in the seat. I felt like I had rejoined the human race.

Get and keep a vision in your head of the you that you will become.

For me, that vision is to go out in public bare chested and not be

embarrassed for people to look at me. I'm not there yet.

The weight loss you are attempting may be that hardest thing you ever

do in your life. You will have bad days, i.e days when you eat too

much, maybe even waaaay too much. My advice is to never let a small

failure become a big failure. Don't let bad days become bad weeks or

bad months. When you have a bad day, OK, it happened. The next day

it's business as usual. Back to work.

[Guest guest]

One should not be trying to lose weight too fast. For the first few weeks it might be Ok to lose several pounds a week. After that (as Walford states) it becomes unhealthy. advice is excellent in this regard.

If you have read Walford, then as Rod says: REREAD. Fast weight loss is not adviced for several reasons.

Why do people think they can lose in a few months what has taken years and years to put on?

________________________

I'd like to throw in a few words of encouragement and advice from the

trenches. A few years ago, I too weighed over 400 lbs (450ish??),

today weigh 235, and am still going down. Despite my best efforts, I

have managed to lose an average of only 30-40 pounds a year.

Theoretically, I could lose at a faster rate but have been unable to

do so, so don't beat yourself up if it takes a lot longer than you

think to lose the weight. It's hard work.

[Guest guest]

>

> > One should not be trying to lose weight too fast.

Dr. Walford's recommendations concerning slow weight loss are in the

context of people who are at or near normal weight who desire to go

below their set point. It's not clear that this applies to people who

are morbidly obese.

I would also contend that someone who is morbidly obese has " a medical

reason for rapid weight loss " , an approach which he appears to

condone, or at least recognize, on page 81 of BT120YD.

[Guest guest]

Caq you please cite the place in Dr W’s book where he says that his suggested weight loss method (over 1 to 2 years) is for people who are “at or near normal weight”? And why you have interpreted that it is not for people who are obese?

He does state that a rapid INITIAL weight loss is Ok, but that following a brief period, to level off.

>

> > One should not be trying to lose weight too fast.

Dr. Walford's recommendations concerning slow weight loss are in the

context of people who are at or near normal weight who desire to go

below their set point. It's not clear that this applies to people who

are morbidly obese.

I would also contend that someone who is morbidly obese has " a medical

reason for rapid weight loss " , an approach which he appears to

condone, or at least recognize, on page 81 of BT120YD.

[Guest guest]

Excuse me for revisiting this post, since I have already replied to it

once, but I don't believe that I did advocate rapid weight loss in my

post.

I mentioned that I lost 30-40 lbs a year, an average of about 3 lbs a

month. That's certainly not rapid weight loss.

I also said that I tried to lose at a faster rate than that but failed

to do so. But, even if I had doubled my rate of loss to 6 lbs a month,

that's still a pretty moderate pace, isn't it?

>

> > One should not be trying to lose weight too fast. For the first

few weeks it

> > might be Ok to lose several pounds a week. After that (as Walford

states) it

> > becomes unhealthy. advice is excellent in this regard.

> >

> > If you have read Walford, then as Rod says: REREAD. Fast weight

loss is not

> > adviced for several reasons.

> >

> > Why do people think they can lose in a few months what has taken

years and

> > years to put on?

> >

> >

> > ________________________

> > I'd like to throw in a few words of encouragement and advice from the

> > trenches. A few years ago, I too weighed over 400 lbs (450ish??),

> > today weigh 235, and am still going down. Despite my best efforts, I

> > have managed to lose an average of only 30-40 pounds a year.

> > Theoretically, I could lose at a faster rate but have been unable to

> > do so, so don't beat yourself up if it takes a lot longer than you

> > think to lose the weight. It's hard work.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I would like to " weigh " in on this topic..

I agree that for most, weight loss should be slow.

Especially if your starting BMI is 25 or less. You

dont have far to go and take your time getting there.

For these people, learning how to incoporate the " ON "

part may be more important than just cutting calories.

And if your BMI is 25 and your trying to get down to

22 or 18.5, it takes some close monitoring of your

calories to make sure you are really maximizing your

nutrients while you are cutting your calories. In

addition, there isnt much " lee way " in caloric intake

in someone whose BMI is 25 or less, as there is with

someone whose BMI is 30 or above. A person whose

starting BMI is 25 can only cut their caloric intake

so much, and still be able to accomplish the " ON " .

Where someone whose BMI is over 30 or more can cut out

a huge part of their calories and still maintain the

" ON " .

And Rodney is right, we have published several studies

showing dramatic improvements in risk factors for CVD,

DB, HTN and Breast and Prostate Cancer, in as little

as 3 weeks, without much weight loss.

However, for those who have BMIs over 30 or BMIs of

27-30 along with serious health conditions, I dont

think this " caution " always applies as for many the

health risks of being that obese outweight the

healthrisks of rapid weight loss.

The only known serious side effect that has been

documented in humans from too rapid of a weight loss

is gallstones. This happens mostly in women and is a

result of increased cholesterol levels in the

gallbladder. And if appropriate, there are some

medications that can be prescribed short term to

minimize this risk.

A little more rapid weight loss is also very

motivating for those with BMIs over 30.

I often see people who have over 150 or 200 pounds to

lose and usually have some serious health conditions

along with it. Several of them have lost over 100 lbs

in a year, and are better off for it.

I have a women in her 60s right now who must lose

around 150 before the will operate on her. She needs

2 new knees and 1 new hip along with some serious

medical conditions. Time is of the essence. If she

lost 1 lb a week, it would take 3 years, time she

doesnt have.

But she also has more " lee way " in her calories. To

maintain her intial weight, she had to be eating over

3000 calories per day. So, even if she went to 2000,

thats enough of a calorie deficit to produce weight

loss of a pound a day, and that is still alot of food.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

My concern is always that we know little about preservation of organs in high weight loss. (I'll allow your org may know more}.

IMO, a person wanting to lose a lot of weight recognize first CR is a not a weight loss technique, secondly they should be under a doc's care. Specifiaclly, one who can tell them how much is too much.

Regards.

Re: [ ] RE: Newbie Advise

I would like to "weigh" in on this topic..I agree that for most, weight loss should be slow. Especially if your starting BMI is 25 or less. Youdont have far to go and take your time getting there. For these people, learning how to incoporate the "ON"part may be more important than just cutting calories.And if your BMI is 25 and your trying to get down to22 or 18.5, it takes some close monitoring of yourcalories to make sure you are really maximizing yournutrients while you are cutting your calories. Inaddition, there isnt much "lee way" in caloric intakein someone whose BMI is 25 or less, as there is withsomeone whose BMI is 30 or above. A person whosestarting BMI is 25 can only cut their caloric intakeso much, and still be able to accomplish the "ON". Where someone whose BMI is over 30 or more can cut outa huge part of their calories and still maintain the"ON". And Rodney is right, we have published several studiesshowing dramatic improvements in risk factors for CVD,DB, HTN and Breast and Prostate Cancer, in as littleas 3 weeks, without much weight loss.However, for those who have BMIs over 30 or BMIs of27-30 along with serious health conditions, I dontthink this "caution" always applies as for many thehealth risks of being that obese outweight thehealthrisks of rapid weight loss.The only known serious side effect that has beendocumented in humans from too rapid of a weight lossis gallstones. This happens mostly in women and is aresult of increased cholesterol levels in thegallbladder. And if appropriate, there are somemedications that can be prescribed short term tominimize this risk.A little more rapid weight loss is also verymotivating for those with BMIs over 30.I often see people who have over 150 or 200 pounds tolose and usually have some serious health conditionsalong with it. Several of them have lost over 100 lbsin a year, and are better off for it. I have a women in her 60s right now who must losearound 150 before the will operate on her. She needs2 new knees and 1 new hip along with some seriousmedical conditions. Time is of the essence. If shelost 1 lb a week, it would take 3 years, time shedoesnt have. But she also has more "lee way" in her calories. Tomaintain her intial weight, she had to be eating over3000 calories per day. So, even if she went to 2000,thats enough of a calorie deficit to produce weightloss of a pound a day, and that is still alot of food.RegardsJeff

[Guest guest]

> IMO, a person wanting to lose a lot of weight

> recognize first CR is a not a weight loss technique,

> secondly they should be under a doc's care.

> Specifiaclly, one who can tell them how much is too

> much.

I would agree 100% with these two points. And, I

would add that caveat in to my original posts. The

people i see who have lost weight faster, are doing it

under medical supervision with daily and weekly

monitoring of their progress.

Thanks

jeff