Guest guest Posted April 25, 2007 Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 Cardiovascular exercise reduces resting heart rate. Here's a reference discussing RHR and all cause mortality: http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/18/9/1404 And here's one discussing RHR and the lowering of CRP levels: http://snipurl.com/CRP_RHR -Diane > > > > While there is a body of evidence to show that > > exercise may reduce the risk for certain diseases, > > most all the evidence is amongst those eating a > > typical american diet, and/or at risk for these > > diseases due to their poor and excessive dietary > > habits... there is little if any evidence to show > > that exercise, in and of itself, will reduce your risk > > for disease, outside of the elevated risks from a poor > > and excessive diet. > > > > The only exception may be in regard to bone health, > > yet it would take minimal amount to reduce that risk. > > Bones like muscles & tendons weaken when not stressed. > > Jogging or another weight bearing aerobic exericse for > > about 20 minutes 3X a week and maybe in addition some > > resistance exercise for 20 minutes 2x a week should be > > sufficient to maintain reasonably strong and efficient > > muscles, tendons, and bones into old age. > > > > The belief that exercise prevents HTN or raises HDL-C > > is questionable at best. Weight training and the gain > > of LBM almost certainly lowers HDL-C and most of the > > difference in HDL-C and life expectancy between men > > and women may be explained by the lower LBM of women. > > > > Calorie restriction reduces LBM as well as fat mass > > and is far more effective at reversing insulin > > resistance, raising HDL-C and even lowering BP than > > exercise. > > > > Remember the key to a long life is -> " eat less and > > live longer " . Exercise more than the minimum needed to > > maintain well functioning muscles, bones, and tendons > > and you have to eat more and also raise your risk for > > more injuries. > > > > So outside of the minimum exercise neccessary, what is > > the payoff for all that extra work? > > > > > > Regards > > Jeff > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2007 Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 Tony I am not denying the enormous body of evidence that shows exercise reduces the risk for many diseases. But most of these, if not all of these, are for people already at risk due to their extremely poor and excessive dietary choises. Yes, being " fit and fat " or being " fit with a poor diet " is better than being " unfit and fat " or " unfit with a poor diet " . I do agree with the ones on Bone Density, expecially for CR, as the study you posted indicated. As far as IR, I dont know of any showing exercise is better than CR. The effect of exercise on IR is a short term one that must be repeated regularly to maintain the benefit, where as the effect from CR is lasting. Eating less is always better for IR, and in order to maintain your level of CR while exercising to get the IR benefit, causes you to eat more. Thanks Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2007 Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 But this doesnt directly relate to exercise. From the study.. " However, the association between heart rate and mortality among hypertensives remained after correction for physical activity levels'51. " Blood Pressure, age, height and smoking are amongst other variable that strongly effect RHR and also mortality, with out exercise Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2007 Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 Nevertheless, exercise is known to reduce RHR. (http://snipurl.com/RHRexercise). Lower blood pressure and avoidance of smoking improve life expectancy. It stands to reason that a heart beating at 45 bpm over many years experiences less wear and tear than a heart beating at 70 bpm and improves life expectancy. And the reference finds that all cause mortality is lower with lower RHR. Diane > > But this doesnt directly relate to exercise. > > From the study.. > > " However, the association between heart rate and > mortality among hypertensives remained after > correction for physical activity levels'51. " > > Blood Pressure, age, height and smoking are amongst > other variable that strongly effect RHR and also > mortality, with out exercise > > Jeff > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2007 Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 I dont dispute the relationship between reduced RHR and longevity ( or the benefit of some amount of exercise). I am disputing the direct relationship between exercise > RMR > Longevity. I dont know of this direct relationship having ever been shown. If you can show me some evidence of this direct relationship, that factors out these other issues i mentioned, then I would love to see it. But as i showed, the correlation remained after factoring out exercise. Remember, CR in and of itself, also lowers RHR. And, My guess is jim fixx had a low RHR as do most long distance runners, but that doesnt equate to increased longevity Thanks Jeff --- Diane Walter <dianepwalter@...> wrote: > Nevertheless, exercise is known to reduce RHR. > (http://snipurl.com/RHRexercise). Lower blood > pressure and avoidance > of smoking improve life expectancy. It stands to > reason that a heart > beating at 45 bpm over many years experiences less > wear and tear than > a heart beating at 70 bpm and improves life > expectancy. And the > reference finds that all cause mortality is lower > with lower RHR. > > Diane > > > > > > But this doesnt directly relate to exercise. > > > > From the study.. > > > > " However, the association between heart rate and > > mortality among hypertensives remained after > > correction for physical activity levels'51. " > > > > Blood Pressure, age, height and smoking are > amongst > > other variable that strongly effect RHR and also > > mortality, with out exercise > > > > Jeff > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 Jeff, How about this: http://snipurl.com/1i6cp Effect of endurance exercise on autonomic control of heart rate. * JB, * Banister EW, * Blaber AP. School of Kinesiology, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada. jcarter@... Long-term endurance training significantly influences how the autonomic nervous system controls heart function. Endurance training increases parasympathetic activity and decreases sympathetic activity in the human heart at rest. These two training-induced autonomic effects, coupled with a possible reduction in intrinsic heart rate, decrease resting heart rate. Long-term endurance training also decreases submaximal exercise heart rate by reducing sympathetic activity to the heart. Physiological ageing is associated with a reduction in parasympathetic control of the heart; this decline in parasympathetic activity can be reduced by regular endurance exercise. Some research has indicated that females have increased parasympathetic and decreased sympathetic control of heart rate. These gender-specific autonomic differences probably contribute to a decreased cardiovascular risk and increased longevity observed in females. - Diane > > > > > > But this doesnt directly relate to exercise. > > > > > > From the study.. > > > > > > " However, the association between heart rate and > > > mortality among hypertensives remained after > > > correction for physical activity levels'51. " > > > > > > Blood Pressure, age, height and smoking are > > amongst > > > other variable that strongly effect RHR and also > > > mortality, with out exercise > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 All, I'm not trying to suggest that exercise will increase maximal lifespan, like CR does. I think there is a large body of evidence that it will postpone mortality by reducing cardiovascular risk. Reducing RHR is one way it does this. The authors of this study biomed.gerontologyjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/56/suppl_1/45 state something similar to Jeff's argument that there is no causal relationship between exercise and mortality, but they think the evidence suggests that it does: " There is a general consensus that individuals who are physically active or physically fit are less likely to experience premature mortality. The absence, however, of randomized controlled studies (probably due to cost and feasibility) precludes firm conclusions regarding the causal link between physical activity and mortality at this time. Nonetheless, the body of evidence suggests that physical activity and/or physical fitness probably exerts its effects in postponing mortality by reducing metabolic and cardiovascular disease risk. " I don't think exercise will keep arteries from eventually clogging through bad diet or through genetic causes, as in the case of Jim Fixx. Fixx did, however, survive longer than other family members, I'm betting because of his exercise habits. I had a couple of friends who were genetically predisposed to hypercholesterolaemia who were told by their doctors after heart attacks that their exercise created compensatory vasculization that helped them survive their attacks. One later died of a subsequent heart attack. He did practice CR (but not ON in my opinion). He attempted to eat no fat at all, including no omega 3s. I remember taking a trip with him and sharing several meals with him where he ate only green salads with no dressing, period. It didn't save him in the long run. I plan to hedge my bets by keeping a low BMI through moderate CRON *and* exercise. Besides, exercise is fun, and the payoffs for me are worth the risk of a slightly reduced life span, if in fact there is a causal relationship. This hasn't been shown either. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 Hi folks: At the risk of repetition, cannot the issue for us with regard to exercise be summarized as follows: A) We KNOW exercise does not extend maximum lifespan. If persuasive evidence indicates that exercise rectangularizes ***OUR*** survival curve then we should do enough of it to take advantage of that. (EVIDENCE PLEASE!). C) If evidence cannot be provided as in B above, then we should only be doing enough of it to satisfy the following criteria: 1. The previously-noted: " ....... ; play a round of golf without a cart ............. " criteria; 2. Tradeoff of a sensible number of years for personal QOL issues; 3. Beyond this do not expend further calories on exercise. Anyone care to suggest improvements to the above summary? Rodney. > > All, > > I'm not trying to suggest that exercise will increase maximal > lifespan, like CR does. I think there is a large body of evidence > that it will postpone mortality by reducing cardiovascular risk. > Reducing RHR is one way it does this. The authors of this study > > biomed.gerontologyjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/56/suppl_1/45 > > state something similar to Jeff's argument that there is no causal > relationship between exercise and mortality, but they think the > evidence suggests that it does: > > " There is a general consensus that individuals who are physically > active or physically fit are less likely to experience premature > mortality. The absence, however, of randomized controlled studies > (probably due to cost and feasibility) precludes firm conclusions > regarding the causal link between physical activity and mortality at > this time. Nonetheless, the body of evidence suggests that physical > activity and/or physical fitness probably exerts its effects in > postponing mortality by reducing metabolic and cardiovascular disease > risk. " > > I don't think exercise will keep arteries from eventually clogging > through bad diet or through genetic causes, as in the case of Jim > Fixx. Fixx did, however, survive longer than other family members, > I'm betting because of his exercise habits. I had a couple of > friends who were genetically predisposed to hypercholesterolaemia who > were told by their doctors after heart attacks that their exercise > created compensatory vasculization that helped them survive their > attacks. One later died of a subsequent heart attack. He did > practice CR (but not ON in my opinion). He attempted to eat no fat at > all, including no omega 3s. I remember taking a trip with him and > sharing several meals with him where he ate only green salads with no > dressing, period. It didn't save him in the long run. > > I plan to hedge my bets by keeping a low BMI through moderate CRON > *and* exercise. Besides, exercise is fun, and the payoffs for me are > worth the risk of a slightly reduced life span, if in fact there is a > causal relationship. This hasn't been shown either. > > Diane > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 Diane and those of you who are discussing exercise: here is my strictly UNscientific opinion: Based on what I see, those who did at least a moderate amt of exercise seem to be more " mobile " as they age (i.e don't need walkers, canes or wheelchairs). Many of those I mentally assess that DID some exercise, don't live longer but are agile and have a more " youthful " body and don't need those aids. Just my completely unscientific observations. If anyone posts any proof of this, great. In the meantime Qof L means a lot. > From: Diane Walter <dianepwalter@...> > Reply-< > > Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 05:36:41 -0000 > < > > Subject: [ ] Re: CR + ON + Exercise > > All, > > I'm not trying to suggest that exercise will increase maximal > lifespan, like CR does. I think there is a large body of evidence > that it will postpone mortality by reducing cardiovascular risk. > Reducing RHR is one way it does this. The authors of this study > > biomed.gerontologyjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/56/suppl_1/45 > > state something similar to Jeff's argument that there is no causal > relationship between exercise and mortality, but they think the > evidence suggests that it does: > > " There is a general consensus that individuals who are physically > active or physically fit are less likely to experience premature > mortality. The absence, however, of randomized controlled studies > (probably due to cost and feasibility) precludes firm conclusions > regarding the causal link between physical activity and mortality at > this time. Nonetheless, the body of evidence suggests that physical > activity and/or physical fitness probably exerts its effects in > postponing mortality by reducing metabolic and cardiovascular disease > risk. " > > I don't think exercise will keep arteries from eventually clogging > through bad diet or through genetic causes, as in the case of Jim > Fixx. Fixx did, however, survive longer than other family members, > I'm betting because of his exercise habits. I had a couple of > friends who were genetically predisposed to hypercholesterolaemia who > were told by their doctors after heart attacks that their exercise > created compensatory vasculization that helped them survive their > attacks. One later died of a subsequent heart attack. He did > practice CR (but not ON in my opinion). He attempted to eat no fat at > all, including no omega 3s. I remember taking a trip with him and > sharing several meals with him where he ate only green salads with no > dressing, period. It didn't save him in the long run. > > I plan to hedge my bets by keeping a low BMI through moderate CRON > *and* exercise. Besides, exercise is fun, and the payoffs for me are > worth the risk of a slightly reduced life span, if in fact there is a > causal relationship. This hasn't been shown either. > > Diane > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 > Anyone care to suggest improvements to the above > summary? I would mention the bone density issue as it may be a real issue in relation to CRON and as Tony pointed out (and has been discussed here) there is some evidence for the role of exercise to prevent the loss of bone in CR. Thanks Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 --- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...> wrote: [...] > As far as IR, I dont know of any showing exercise is > better than CR. The effect of exercise on IR is a > short term one that must be repeated regularly to > maintain the benefit, where as the effect from CR is > lasting. Eating less is always better for IR, and in > order to maintain your level of CR while exercising to > get the IR benefit, causes you to eat more. I'll surely hit myself on the forehead when you answer this, but for what does " IR " stand in this context? Thanks, - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 > I'll surely hit myself on the forehead when you > answer > this, but for what does " IR " stand in this context? Sorry. IR is insulin resistance. Regards Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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